BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:16 PM

True, GUEST. ;-) It's amusing, isn't it?

Amos too feels he is speaking on behalf of the community.

Whether he is or not is strictly a matter of subjective judgement by those who are listening to what he's saying.

WHO are "the community"?????????? The arguments about that could go on forever, and I expect that they shall. ;-P

It is always the case that people who have been at the center of something longer feel that their opinion about it carries more weight. It's called seniority. You can find it in every group, organization, team, peer group, or club that has ever existed. This can make you feel pretty insecure if you're a newcomer, an outsider, or just someone who is not (apparently) high enough up in the pecking order...and there IS a pecking order, be assured of that.

It is natural for those at the lower end of such a pecking order to resent it.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:17 PM

Insulting you Amos and riling you up can be just pure fun, because you take yourself and your pseudo-intellectualism so seriously.

A good waste of bandwith is ten anti-Bush and very anti-American threads, mostly started by you or led by your self-serving one that very few want to open up and waste their time with.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:19 PM

It's not yet a well-known fact, but Shambles is actually another of Little Hawk's research projects-- those Mudcat Icons he invented to compete with Spaw, like Shatner?

So Alba's book project will, in fact, be a work of fiction. Perhaps the sort called a "Cautionary Tale."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:22 PM

Nah Chaucer's already done that one.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:24 PM

I've noticed that certain people can goof off on the forum and be totally asinine...and they are applauded for it. Why? Because they already have a lot of friends here and are well liked by many.

Then someone else who is not in such a favored position in the pecking order can do the same thing...and be castigated for it.

This is clearly a matter of people being prejudiced in favor of their pals and against various other people.

Again, that is something that happens EVERYWHERE. It's human nature. We can complain about it all we want to, but it ain't gonna change.

The fact is, if you want to be treated with respect in any peer group you have to work at it. It takes awhile. You may succeed, you may not. Depends on your style and theirs.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:28 PM

LOL!!!!!!!!! By God, Susan, there's an idea! So you think I invented Shambles, do you? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

I am willing to go to some lengths to compete with Spaw in creating forum icons, and I freely admit that I launched the Shatner schtick for that very purpose...but there are LIMITS to what I am willing to do in that regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:29 PM

Do people come here to be respected though? Pretty sad if they do. That's what real life is for.

Everyone on here has an opinion that is as valid as the next persons. Those who feel the need to slate others opinions/thoughts etc as 'stupidity' are putting themselves on a pedestal that doesn't exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:34 PM

People don't come here to be respected. They come here to have fun. But everybody wants to be respected, regardless. It's a universal human desire.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:38 PM

I've seen this happen in every club or group I've ever witnessed. It's a natural human dynamic, driven by ego and personality.

I don't think there is any perfect solution to this.

You think you are speaking on behalf of the way this forum should be.

The people who disagree with you think exactly the same thing.

I am only following Max's public statements about his wishes for our forum and I have been posting on that basis. That is the only solution.

As far as I am concerned - every other poster's tastes and wishes are worth more or no less than mine.

And our forum has always been naturally shaped by what all of its posters choose to post. Should it now be shaped by what only a few posters wish to delete or close - especially when they still complain and wish for more and more restrictions to be imposed on others but ignore these restrictions themselves?

As these few now wish to prevent the public from freely contributing to our forum - as has always been its strength - enough is enough. Those posters who do not like Max's concept - are now free to leave and create their own private members club, ban and exclude who they wish and impose whatever rules they wish.

Such things have nothing to do with the Mudcat Discussion Forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:49 PM

I follow your point perfectly, Roger.

However, the people you are referring to seem to think you should leave and form your own club! It's ironical.

Me, I think anyone should leave who wants to, but that goes without saying, because if they want to leave, then they will, won't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 04:54 PM

Again, that is something that happens EVERYWHERE. It's human nature. We can complain about it all we want to, but it ain't gonna change.

There are many sides to human nature. It is just as much human nature to be charitable and kind as it is to be the opposite.

What you are describing is our forum's current form of mob rule where hypocrites and bullies prosper and where the negative side of human nature is given its head and encouraged.

Those who think this to be an acceptable part of human nature can leave and form their own forum.

For it has nothing to do with our Discussion Forum that Max started on his website.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:06 PM

Again I follow your point perfectly.

The ironical thing is, however, that "Those who think this to be an acceptable part of human nature" are the very ones who will not leave this forum because they think they are right and you are wrong, so you should leave instead. They think that their opinion on the matter is more valid than yours.

You assertion that the forum is now a place of mob rule where...

"hypocrites and bullies prosper and where the negative side of human nature is given its head and encouraged" ...is interesting, because, yeah, it is kind of like that.

Once that sort of thing begins the only thing that could end it would be very strict moderation, such as is found on numerous forums.

I think the "old Mudcat" that you are looking back to fondly is gone forever. You will not see it again. That happens with most things in life after awhile.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:23 PM

I think the "old Mudcat" that you are looking back to fondly is gone forever. You will not see it again. That happens with most things in life after awhile.

The simple values, mutural respect and realities on which our forum is based do not change and will only be totally buried if we stop fighting for them and allow them to be.

Just because some of the inmates have (temporarily) taken over the asylum - there is no need to assume what they see as reality has to be accepted as reality by the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:26 PM

We could be talking about any number of things in society the same way. Things change.

One day you and I will be gone. Will the forum still be around? Maybe. Maybe not. Everything passes eventually.

If you want to fight for those old values, though, you certainly have every right to.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:34 PM

I don't see there is ever a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST,Mrs Olive Whatnoll
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:39 PM

There's always a bleedin' choice. I 'ad a choice today whether or not to get out of bed. I did. I 'ad a choice whether or not to tell Howard the Turtle to sod off. I told 'im to! I 'ad a choice whether or not to kill the neighbour's cat which does its business in me garden. I tried, but the bastard got away this time! You 'ave a choice whether to keep yammerin' on day afer day or to shut yer gob. It's that simple, boyo. I made my choices in life, and you can make yours. It's a free world, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:43 PM

It's a free world, innit?

Not for very long - if you don't choose to fight for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:49 PM

Your point has been made with devastating clarity, Roger.

You realize that if I stop responding to you on this thread that you may be reduced to talking to yourself?

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 05:53 PM

No chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 06:09 PM

I said - no chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 08:55 PM

Above, someone said something about it being a bad idea to slight Alba, and it made me think of this this:

When Alba is upset, she goes for the throat--so you'd better watch out, or you'll end up with
An Alba cross around your neck.

Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: catspaw49
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 09:54 PM

...........awferchrissakes Ted................Geeziz Man, that one was just awful and I don't mean sorta'...........It was puns like that one that caused the Great Internet Crash of 2002......You need to issue a blanket apology to everyone reading that thing.........

Damn, if I ain't envious........alba cross...........shheeeitfire Bub...............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: jacqui.c
Date: 30 Apr 06 - 10:56 PM

ROTFLMAO Ted - that was a GOOD one.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 May 06 - 04:04 AM

People don't come here to be respected. They come here to have fun. But everybody wants to be respected, regardless. It's a universal human desire.

Perhaps everyone on our furum should be respected, whatever they may post here for?

And perhaps what everyone has to say - deserves to be treated with equal respect?

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Alba
Date: 01 May 06 - 06:38 AM

Ted.
Priceless!...* LMAO *

Jude:)

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 06 - 10:25 AM

Excellent idea, Roger. I agree with your view on that. It will never happen, though. A lot of people get far too much pleasure and satisfaction from disrespecting others. Note what society's reaction was to Jesus when he suggested that we all love and respect one another.

How would our more nasty and aggressive Mudcat members react to someone like that? They'd either make snide remarks at his expense, laugh at him, dismiss him in disgust, or gather in a mob and all yell, "Crucify him!"

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 06 - 11:20 AM

True and as then those who mock are the ones who have to build their self esteem by knocking someone elses.

Shambles persistence, has with time, had a very interesting result. He has consistently stuck to his point and delivered it without spite. In return his detractors are getting more frustrated by the day at being unable to bulldoze him into agreeing with them and accepting what he clearly finds unacceptable.

In the face of indisputable fact, where he can and does highlight every inconsistency and bias, they are lost for an answer and resort to ridicule. Because the alternative would be to agree with him or ignore him. And both of those alternatives in their eyes represent defeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 06 - 12:10 PM

Yeah, it's intriguing all right. It's difficult for anyone to abandon an argument they have become attached to over a period of time, because to do so does represent defeat to them.

I'm fond of considering different viewpoints, examining things from all angles, and I have to say I'm beginning to appreciate Roger's point on all this stuff. I'm not sure I'd be as persistent in making it as he has been, though. There's a point where I just shrug and walk away from something like this, because I figure there's no changing people's minds about it.

I would be delighted if the sort of sadistic backbiting and ego games that some people indulge in here would cease...but I know it's not going to, so I just shrug and live with it...and sometimes I slip into it myself in reaction to it. (that can easily happen, it's a way of relieving stress)

Like I said earlier, I've seen this sort of thing occur in virtually every group I've ever been around. The only thing that can prevent it from occuring...or stop it soon when it does...is extremely good and focused leadership that is absolutely fair to everybody and doesn't waver in its principles. And I mean extremely good leadership. It's a very rare thing. I've seen it, but not here.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 06 - 12:43 PM

Yes I'm a shrugger too, but it has been enlightening watching this play out. Every so often when it got really nasty I would wade in and defend shambles, not because I thought he particularly needed it, he is eloquent and able to deliver his view point well, but because I can't abide bullying.

I then watched as my posts were being deleted, and believe me they contained nothing insulting or derogatory, then I noticed another wader inner was also having his/her posts deleted, and that is when I shrugged.

And lo and behold a " See shambles nobody else agrees with you" post would appear in the thread. I realised that it suited some peoples agenda to present a one sided view of proceedings, and no matter how underhand they needed to be in order to do that, they were prepared to stoop that low to prove their point.

But now I feel he has turned a huge corner. His detractors are actually unwittingly proving his point for him. Their insults fly and they feel safe to let them fly.

Intriguing indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 06 - 02:35 PM

I agree with much Amos says in his post 30 Apr 3:54pm.

But at the end of his post he says...
"This is the same reason people don't like negative threads, or posts like Martin's insults. It's a waste of good opportunity and it undermines the community."

What is a "negative thread" and how can I recognise one?...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 06 - 03:26 PM

"I then watched as my posts were being deleted, and believe me they contained nothing insulting or derogatory, then I noticed another wader inner was also having his/her posts deleted, and that is when I shrugged."

Write and ask Joe to look into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 May 06 - 03:47 PM

How would our more nasty and aggressive Mudcat members react to someone like that? They'd either make snide remarks at his expense, laugh at him, dismiss him in disgust, or gather in a mob and all yell, "Crucify him!"

If you take the time to read through Max's public posts - you will see someone with such hopes for our forum and a similar attitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 May 06 - 03:57 PM

[PM] Max The future of Mudcat. What do YOU think? (81* d) RE: The future of Mudcat. What do YOU think? 12 Jan 00

Thank you Shambles. I think some may not catch what your trying to do.
The Mudcat's gonna grow. There will be a lot more content, a lot more people, a lot more posts, a lot more media, a lot more songs. We can't stop that now. But does this change anything? Some of us may get nervous that our happy world here may change, but what ever stays the same? The Real World is what it is, as is the Mudcat, and both are changing and growing everyday. Fear not the future, fear not the growth, fear not the change. It all comes down to one simple thing:
It will be what we make it... PERIOD
----------------------------------

[PM] Max another one lost (57* d) RE: another one lost 18 Sep 00
>snip<
Let us make a philosophical analogy and pretend for a moment that Mudcat = Life. There is no doubt that the events and social construct are similar if not just a subset. (One difference is that LIFE may in fact have a GOD, where Mudcat certainly does not. This simply means that the Mudcat is up to us to create and maintain which is a blessing and a burden, without THE BIG GUY'S HELP.)
>snip<

In Life and On Mudcat:
...You have control of your environment and your actions. You can choose to get and take and give what you want and refuse the rest.

...You may think that you, just one person, could not change this world when in fact you might.

...All we can really do is show by example.

...Create WHAT IS with our collective desires, passions, beliefs, personalities, etc. Life is what you make it. (and without The Big Guy's help the Mudcat sure is what we make it!)

Members come and go, we have to deal with that, but now we're scaring away the new folks. Lets get some love in the air! huh folks? Take that energy that you waste on complaining and spread some joy, kind words, and music threads for GOD'S sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 06 - 05:06 PM

Those are from 2000. A lot has happened since then. I wonder what Max would say now?

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 May 06 - 06:10 PM

If you voted Democrat in 2000 how likely would be that you would vote Republican in 2006?

You realize that if I stop responding to you on this thread that you may be reduced to talking to yourself?

I said - no chance and I was right. Perhaps I will be right in other things also?

----------------------------------

What is a "negative thread" and how can I recognise one?...Ake

Do you think it one that is judged to comprise of anti-Mudcat posts - however you recognise those?

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 06 - 06:11 PM

You were wrong until I came back.... (grin)

Now you're right. You will probably be wrong again soon. That's the way it goes in life.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Bert
Date: 01 May 06 - 07:24 PM

...or Joe could crosslink all previous Shamblecentric tread if he has a spare day...

Or he could crosslink all threads that have been subject to gratitous deletions.

IT IS STILL GOING ON - AND IT'S TIME SOMEONE PUT A STOP TO IT.

Yes I know, I was shouting. But when I've talked quietly nothing has happened.

Whoever deleted messages from this thead PLEASE RESTORE THEM SO THAT WE CAN ALL SEE WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 06 - 07:29 PM

It's not just this thread Bert. I also had posts deleted from the 'rules of engagement' thread. And I noticed someone else did too.

As for the suggestion earlier to tell joe about it - wouldn't that be akin to reporting noisy neighbours to someone who plays drums at 3am in a fourth floor flat?

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: number 6
Date: 01 May 06 - 07:35 PM

Is it raining where you live?? .... drizzling here in Saint John ... but we did have a great weekend weather wise. Wanted to do some weeding in the garden, but was sidetracked by other things ... you know, those other little things that you allow to divert you from doing the things that really do require your attention. I should have a better attitude towards those things rather than trying to avoid them.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Jeri
Date: 01 May 06 - 07:40 PM

There haven't been any messages deleted from this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 06 - 07:42 PM

Thanks for checking and I do believe you.There have been so many I don't bother checking now. Could you tell me why the ones that DEFINITELY were deleted from the rules of engagment thread were deleted?

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: number 6
Date: 01 May 06 - 07:43 PM

Very good that you have noticed that Jeri ... I certainly wouldn't have.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Bert
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:29 PM

Jeri,

Your statement "There haven't been any messages deleted from this thread." doesn't agree with this one from above

..."It's not just this thread Bert. I also had posts deleted from the 'rules of engagement' thread. And I noticed someone else did too."...

Just what is going on? I thought that Joe, Max or Jeff were the only ones who had sufficient access to the database to determine whether a message has been deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: number 6
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:36 PM

HuH ... I should check out to see what the weather is going to be like tomorrow ... but it doesn't really matter as I work during the week ... now don't get me wrong ... I like my work, I have a healthy attitude towards that ... but my attitude is pretty low when it comes to inclimate weather ... man I hate rain, especially here on the shores of the Fundy, since the winds really blow up and make it even more miserable with the rain ... anyone else feel this way?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:40 PM

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows!

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: number 6
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:41 PM

HeHe .... I always liked that line!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:41 PM

I love the rain as long as I don't have to be out in a deluge, sIx! Of course, it's a rare treat here in the semi-arid desert of western Colorado. They aren't joking when they call it "Sunny Colorado."

About 78 degrees today, few clouds, mostly sun, about 14% humidity and just enough wind to ring my chimes...windchimes, that is.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:43 PM

Voila as if by magic the thread gets hijacked by a clone when the going gets a bit too near the truth. Priceless.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: Bert
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:43 PM

Actually Sixie, we could do with a drop of rain here in Colorado. It would clear the air a little.

It would also be nice for someone to clear the air abot these deletions.

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship and Attitude rolled into one
From: number 6
Date: 01 May 06 - 08:44 PM

Actually I think I could live in that climate Kat. We've been thinking of maybe New Nexico down the road.

To hear windchimes under a blue, dry sky with a breeze sounds so nice .. as opposed to a gale off the ocean here whipping them around.

sIx