BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 10:35 AM

Is that a track from the SoH CD Fuckwitness?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 10:16 AM

Message boarding in a laid back mood, didn't do the little folky much good
Troll comes travelling, fishin for a bite, flaming up the folk net itchin to fight
Poison spam mail, hour by hour, they keep going way too far,
They're only here to spread their strife, an everyday story of virtual life

On good old UMF where it all was born, a killfile stopped their ranting scorn
Usenet rules aint used no more, what do you think we made them for?
Wasted bandwidth makes us frown, toxic trash we can't shut down,
But all the boards will pay the price, for another troll's vision of virtual life

Once the net was plain to see, a place to build community.
If peeps got angry, or unkind, we'd join together, make them mind,
Now self-righteous fuckwit fools, are taking over, breaking rules,
Our tolerance has been the price, cos they don't respect our virtual way of life

Silent fora, empty frames, can't chat no more for trolls and flames,
Cyber world is split in two, polarised by toxic views
They don't give a damn for netiquette, they're only out for what they can get
We try reason, as their knife, is carving up our virtual life

Freedom to troll? Here's the deal, flame fests bring us all to heel,
Toxic posts of giant scale, spamming is the final nail
The coffin of our virtual dream lies in ruins across the screen
While cyber lawyers writs in hand, strip this rich and fertile land,
Cherry pick what they can steal, a butterfly is broken on a wheel

No peace, no sense

Won't share, don't care


Trolls are ruling in our virtual life

Virtual life, virtual life, virtual life

It's a little bit of virtual life

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,Ax
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 06:52 PM

WHY is this still in the music section? It stopped being about music a long time ago. If it ever was.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 06:21 PM

Well you're certainly getting enough space here to make up for what you lost there

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 03:58 PM

And if my post above doesn't make sense to many, then here are some words by which I and my children now live our lives! They are from Harry Chapin and they tell the story of how one person's bullying and dictatorial approach can turn out the lights in someone else's mind:

Flowers are Red
by Harry Chapin

"The little boy went first day of school
He got some crayons and started to draw
He put colors all over the paper
For colors was what he saw
And the teacher said.. What you doin' young man
I'm paintin' flowers he said
She said... It's not the time for art young man
And anyway flowers are green and red
There's a time for everything young man
And a way it should be done
You've got to show concern for everyone else
For you're not the only one

And she said...
Flowers are red young man
Green leaves are green
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than they way they always have been seen

But the little boy said...
There are so many colors in the rainbow
So many colors in the morning sun
So many colors in the flower and I see every one

Well the teacher said.. You're sassy
There's ways that things should be
And you'll paint flowers the way they are
So repeat after me.....

And she said...
Flowers are red young man
Green leaves are green
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than they way they always have been seen

But the little boy said...
There are so many colors in the rainbow
So many colors in the morning sun
So many colors in the flower and I see every one

The teacher put him in a corner
She said.. It's for your own good..
And you won't come out 'til you get it right
And are responding like you should
Well finally he got lonely
Frightened thoughts filled his head
And he went up to the teacher
And this is what he said.. and he said

Flowers are red, green leaves are green
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen

Time went by like it always does
And they moved to another town
And the little boy went to another school
And this is what he found
The teacher there was smilin'
She said...Painting should be fun
And there are so many colors in a flower
So let's use every one

But that little boy painted flowers
In neat rows of green and red
And when the teacher asked him why
This is what he said.. and he said

Flowers are red, green leaves are green
There's no need to see flowers any other way
Than the way they always have been seen."



If some people want to write in black and white, they are free to do so, if others want to write in 'every colour of the rainbow' they are also free to do so!


"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you like everybody else, means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight.....and never stop fighting."
e.e. cummings. 1894-1962

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 03:52 PM

'passing through'....you wouldn't happen to be a BBC employee would you by any chance?????????

The first link you gave, is to me, the real eye-opener! The second one, yes...great! Well done Mark Radcliffe!!

Call me cynical....(and for legal reasons, the following is purely my opinion)....but could this sudden decision to hail the Music Club as the new and 'happening' place to talk about FOLK, have anything to do with the fact that this whole situation has been so appallingly handled that the BBC are now running **** scared of actually being legally accused of suppression and discrimination, at all?????????

I was told on Thursday by the BBC Central Community Team (Community????) that I would remain banned for the remainder of the week, as they had stated, and after that I could return to the boards, with full freedom of posting, and all 'pre-mod' lifted! This would stay, as long as I didn't continue to flood the BBC and Smooth Ops with e mails!!!!!! (?????????) I had **ONLY** written to them over and over, because my questions were NOT being answered...by them!!

They then suggested that I wrote in an entirely different way, or indeed in an entirely different place, as my 'glowing and lengthy posts' upset other members! (OH PLEASE!!!!! It is NOT compuslory to read them!!!!!!!! There are OTHER people 'OUT THERE', looking in, who do though!!!) And they would be very happy to recommend other boards to which I may be more suited

(Gosh! Do the BBC really have messageboards in Siberia then????) ;0)

And...they very kindly said this:

>>"We are taking steps to ensure that they do not begin a 'witch-hunt' against you."<<

Awwww shucks! Isn't that **sweet** of them!



But........'they' as in the Music Club 'they', began a 'witch hunt' against me from practically Post 1.....and it was allowed to continue, with the BBC's permission!!

Meanwhile, (back at the ranch) on the F&A board, the most appalling 'witch hunt' has been going on for well over two years!!!!!! AND...Not a SINGLE SOUL at the BBC has ever given a **** about it before...EVER! And ALL the posters who took part in it, have never been individually reprimanded, (I have though)..or pre-modded, (I have though) OR banned, (I have though) So...that's all fair and square and above board then isn't it!!!!!! The word HYPOCRITICAL does not even begin....EVEN BEGIN to describe how I feel about all this......There was even a poster who went over from the Music Club to start a thread called 'fingers in both ears' which was purely a personallly abusive thread....and yet he/she/it is still free to post!!!!!!!

SHEESH!!

However, I should point out that the first proper e mail I had from the Mods, which was NOT a 'standard pre-printed' "Your message has been removed because of....etc.etc." which is usually sent out to everyone who has a post removed, although not always and often days and days after it has happened...was from the BBC informing me that I had been banned. Yes!! Wonderful that wasn't it!! NOT A WORD OF EXPLANATION about any of my questions though.....

So THEN....I wrote back, once more, with the whole story....except that THIS time..I told them I was going to the Press, because I was so flamingly angry at their **disgusting behaviour**!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And what do you think happened???? Go on....guess????

YES!!!!!!!!!!!......A MIRACLE!! Glory Halleluliah!!!!!

Within an hour or so....I had a whole new email from them!!

And THAT is (in my ever so humble opinion) WHY the BBC are possibly now promoting the Music Club and linking it with Folk Music....because I think they are covering their yellow BBC backs, shaking in their crumbling BBC shoes, and quivering in their creaking BBC beds!!!!

Discrimination and Suppression has (IMO) taken place and will **continue** to take place until the threads on Show of Hands and Seth Lakeman are re-opened! I was repeatedly verbally and personally abused, apparently because I had DARED to bring folk artists to 'their' Music Board, and these posts were allowed to remain, *despite* them being personal and getting to the point of harrassment, which is *not* allowed on BBC boards. (HAH! Excuse me whilst I fall over sideways like Mrs Doyle..but in complete 'harrassment' hysteria!!)

From the BBC's behaviour, based on the fact that I repeatedly told them that this was happening, yet no action was taken, I can only deduce that the BBC was in total agreement with the thoughts of those posters...that being, that Folk Music Musicians were NOT for discussion on their board, otherwise they would have removed their posts or at the very least, answered my continued questions, as to who we were, and were not, apparently allowed to talk about on their board!


And **STILL** there is no explanation as to why those two threads are closed? There is STILL no explanation as to what happened to a thread about Sandy Thom and Show of Hands, (NOT from me by the way)....which appeared, disappeared, appeared and then....came back, I think closed....only to disappear AGAIN!!

The BBC Boards and the Modding of them are a complete and utter shambles!

Oh...and I told the BBC where they could stick their boards....AND their attitudes!!

If they seriously think that I am going to write as so many of their other posters do, which is, negatively, rudely, harrassingly, abusingly and disruptively....AND if they think that I am going to spend my days on there thinking of 'Best Of' lists or 'Songs for Cremations' (oh yes indeedy!)...whilst 'OUT HERE' there are hundreds of DEEPLY TALENTED musicians who DESERVE to be written about in 'glowing' terms and whose songs take me to a million different places, and who have such power and strength in their lyrics and such vision in their views on the present and the future...and also that of the past....And if they SERIOUSLY think that I would ever, EVER want to become like some of the posters who have hurled the most appalling verbal things at me for a very long time, (some of which I have admitted to hurling right back at them...but I was banned for this...and er...they weren't!).....then they are totally and utterly even more APPALLINGLY OUT OF CONTACT with the real world than even I had imagined!!!!!!!!

I refuse to write in BLACK AND WHITE!!!! I write as I write and I write in COLOUR!!! No-one *HAS* to read **anything**....there is very little 'community' in the BBC, mostly small, strong groups of dominating people who seek to 'control' those boards...

I would rather NEVER write again, than to EVER sell my Verbal Soul to the appalling, harrassing, bullying, rule-breaking, controlling, humourless, colourless, dumbed-down, unfeeling, obsessional, uncaring, hating, narrow-minded, mind-blowingly negative, jealous, bitter, pathetic and dictatorial PRATS who seem, in so many cases, (imo) to inhabit the BBC boards.

...and who are encouraged and permitted to be there by the BBC themselves!!!!!


"INJUSTICE ANYWHERE IS A THREAT TO JUSTICE EVERYWHERE" Martin Luther King.


Thank you very much.....


Lizzie

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,passing through
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 11:28 AM

The quick look at Radio 2 homepage shows it currently linking to the Music Club thread 'How do you define folk' and allso highlight the special Mark Radcliffe at the Shetland Folk Festival with an interview with Julie Fowlis.

Doesn't look much like discrimination to me, maybe it's just Lizzie they're pissed off with. How come she only got banned for a week?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: captainbirdseye
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 09:40 AM

Asit happens Vinnie Jones is agreyhound owner,so undoubtedly, if he can sing,hewould make a good job of master mcgrath

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 07:43 AM

guest 8:04 you're quite right and I was wrong to say "all" - shoulda said "all I need to know"

Not judging anything or anyone, merely observing.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 05:33 AM

No Jon,

I merely put a post on about Show of Hands....it wasn't rude, or aggressive or any such thing at all....and in no time at all, there I was, yet again, being told how and what to write....that what I had written was 'not how we do things here'etc. etc. etc........here is the thread:

SHOW OF HANDS EVERWHERE: (first post and title now returned. Thread CLOSED)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3146306




In fact, here is every thread I started, if anyone wants to see exactly what happened, but this is NOT compulosry...and er..probably more than a little boring (!)...so please feel free to just scroll on past this post, if you so choose:

SETH LAKEMAN: (first post and title removed,returned and now REMOVED. Thread CLOSED)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3160097

THE FABULOUS OYSTERBAND: (first post and title removed, returned, now removed. Thread CLOSED)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3163680

MUSICAL RACISM:(first post and title removed and returned)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3163834

DISAPPEARING THREADS: (first post and title removed, returned, removed. Thread CLOSED)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3177244

YUSUF ISLAM/CAT STEVENS: (left entirely alone, by the mods and posters, no disruption, or messages being removed, other than an entirely permissable link to Yusuf's recent documentary!)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3163486

CLOSED THREADS: (Thread CLOSED...superb, delicious irony there!)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3171063

JOHNNIE WALKER, MAN OF WISDOM: (first post and title removed, then returned.)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3170276

RICHARD THOMPSON COVERS: (left entirely alone by Mods and posters)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3157824

MUSIC LINKS...BBC HOST< PLEASE CAN YOU...'(Thread CLOSED)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3165992



These next threads I started to ask why all the other threads had been turned into chaos by having their title and first post removed, when they had already been checked by the Mods!

THE MUSICAL RACISM MYSTERY: (first post and title removed. Thread CLOSED)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3171326

THE SHOW OF HANDS MYSTERY: (closed down)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3168472

THE SETH LAKEMAN MYSTERY: (first post and title removed now returned. Thread CLOSED)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3168076

THE OYSTERBAND MYSTERY: (Thread CLOSED)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3167726

THE JOHNNIE WALKER MYSTERY: (Thread CLOSED)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mbradio2/F4387184?thread=3175728



The thread that disappeared completely was entitled "Closed 'closed thread' Thread" in which I pointed out that they'd even er...closed that one down as well.

Despite ALL of this, PLUS 3 official complaints and almost daily replies to the Mods....NOTHING was explained, apart from me being told how tiresome it was of me to keep putting these threads on. The WHOLE point of course, being missed....that IF the BBC had replid in the FIRST place....NONE of this would have happened!!

Once again, from Michael Grade:


"The real test of any organisation is how it deals with complaints from the public." - Michael Grade BBC Chairman


PAH! PAH! PAH!!

WHAT a way to run the BBC! Or anything else for that matter!


Lizzie :0) (At the 'sack that man **IMMEDIATELY** end!)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,8:04
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 05:30 AM

Buck - You never know all there is to know from choosing to read only one side of the story, especially when you're missing a lot of the background facts. If its about more than music you might ask yourself why. It sounds like you're new to the story and not in a position to judge.

But you're welcome anyway.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:47 PM

I suppose the biggest pointer to what it is all about is that the once difficult F&A board became more peaceful and the peaceful Music Club board became troubled with the transfer of just one person.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:27 PM

Guest 8:04 - I suspect I know pretty much all there is to know just from reading Lizzie's posts here. I don't really think this has anything to do with music.

But thanks anyway.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:02 PM

THE ONLY REASON THAT YOU ARE NOW OVER ON THE MUSIC CLUB BOARD JON, DISCUSSING FOLK MUSIC, IS BECAUSE I WENT OVER THERE LAST WEEK TO TALK ABOUT SHOW OF HANDS BEING ON JOHNNIE WALKER, THE OYSTERBAND, SETH LAKEMAN, RICHARD THOMPSON ET AL....AND I STARTED TO OPEN UP THEIR EYES TO A WHOLE GENRE OF MUSIC, THAT THEY EITHER DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT OR WEREN'T INTERESTED IN.....AND ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lizzie, I went over there because I read this thread and wanted to see for myself what all this hell let loose was all about. I found the hell was entirely of your creation (and no you cant blame me - I was't even there when it happened) and that when a later thread was started, folk music as I said was discussed without problem. Your openng question is a lie. One can DISCUSS folk music over there. One can't rant/rave, spam, etc.

EVEN THOUGH I HAD LEFT YOU ALL ALONE, LEFT YOU TO YOUR 'OWN' BOARD........

You can not possibly have thought that. You know full well, and this is supported by Peter, that I (and he) left the place while you were there because we were fed up with the perpetual rows, many of which you were a major instigator.

Also, as pointed out, the fallouts continued after our departures. As far as I understand it, you eventually did walk out of the place but I didn't even know anything about it. I only came back when to announce I had a new abcconverter tool that I thought might be useful to some there. I found the place more peaceful and stayed.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 08:04 PM

Buck - If you've only seen the BBC boards today then you really do not know what this is all about. A lot of the stuff being talked about here has either been taken off by the moderators (which tells you something) or is past and doesn't show up on the current screen.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 07:29 PM

Actually Tootles.....my posting at 8.55 was quite restrained...under the circumstances!!

And the only poster I was replying to, Jon, (perhaps you didn't read his name on there) has put grumpy rude post after rude post on here about me, I suggest you read them all...I have also put up with quite a few explosions from him elsewhere...and yet....I have never, ever done that to him.

All I want is to be able to write in the way that is natural to me and not to have people continually telling me to do it **their** way!! I am a free person, as are they. Get off my back..that's all I'm asking!

With respect Tootles, you truly have to have walked Ten Thousand Miles in my moccasins to realise what all this is about. It's been going on for years and years!

And you're missing the point!! I did not respond like this on the BBC, every single post (altogether now....) was checked by them first *before* it went on!!!!! Max is the only person who lets me !!!!!!! all over the place and actually answer all these grumbling grizzlies who follow me round groaning gratuitously!! I mean....WHAT is it with these people????????

However....I was in no way responding to Barbara in my post of 8.55 In fact...Barbara is one of the only people who understands that my words are also my voice....and whilst I am *normally* a fairly quiet person, with a great sense of humour...I do tend to erupt everywhere, when I feel that injustice or dictatorship is taking place!!

Once again.....I am a free person!

Thank you Tootles!


Lizzie

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 07:10 PM

Lizzie,

Your posting at 8:55 was little better than a childish tantrum. If that is your reponse to a number of posts, all of which were trying to be helpful, then you fully deserve what has happened to you.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 07:03 PM

Hello Buck!

I'm starting to get banned from more boards than I've had hot dinners! ;0).....And all because I won't stop talking about music!!

I am as you may have noticed..."subject to shame, abuse and ridicule on all boards regardless of your topic?"....although I'd remove the word ALL from there and put in Radio 2 Folk & Acoustic board. The artists I've always spoken about have been from the F&A world but some of them are on the Black List of The Folk Police....as indeed am I. ;0)

My grouch is that I was literally stopped from talking about the music that I love, on a board where it specifically says that you can er...'talk about the music that you love'..and where no genre at all is specified. So....I did...and now...the threads of three of those artists have been closed down with no explanation, my posts have been removed, even though I was pre-modded, and they were often the first posts I put on about the artists, so HOW could they be deemed spam???.....and I've now been banned for daring to repeatedly ask WHY...on the BBC messageboard...which I had to do over and over as NO-ONE answered me!! I'd written to the official complaints section THREE times, and was writing to the Mods on practically a daily basis, but had heard nothing, other than being told by the 'official' people to er..write to the Mods!!!

"Hello, your call is important to us, please hold the line".....well I did.....for AGES...and no-one came...so I erupted!! Aaaarrrgggghhh!

Now then, about John Prine. I have a confession!

A long while back, someone started a thread on the F&A board about him. Someone came on and said he was 'Country' and the track I heard sounded very 'Country' so I er...gosh...cripes!.....I agreed with the poster above me, politely suggesting that perhaps the BBC Country Board would be more appreciative and put a link in to that board for him...but...I was *very* polite! Someone pointed out that it was all really just music and I realised they were absoluely right....and so I humbly apologised to said poster and found this for him as a token of apology:

http://www.loc.gov/today/cyberlc/feature_wdesc.php?rec=3677

Hope you enjoy it too.....

And now..I shall sit back and watch the Moaning Minnies have a field day with that story. But...at least I'm honest! ;0)

AND..I'd also like to point out that John Prine should be able to be spoken about on the Music Club board as well, and I'm sure he would be permitted....but just not if he were playing with Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands or The Oysterband it would seem!

"Your BBC" HAH!

Oh and someone sent me this yesterday, from the BBC board.

"The real test of any organisation is how it deals with complaints from the public." - Michael Grade BBC Chairman


DOUBLE/TRIPLE/QUADRUPLE HAH!! Well, I'll tell you how the BBC deals with complaints from its public!! They throw you into Room 101 for daring to ask why, then chuck the key away, whilst letting ignorant twits roam their boards, deeply insulting and verbally abusing people left, right and centre!

"YOUR BBC" Oh Really????????


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 05:17 PM

Clarify for me, please, Lizzie, are you subject to shame, abuse and ridicule on all boards regardless of your topic? I've been to the F&A board today, and it sure looked to me like posts about what I consider to be "folk" music are welcome (I posted in fact, about Prine. Can't beat that on Day One). Is it that you fancy some artists who are not allowable subject matter on any BBC board? Or is it that you want to post about whoever you want to post about wherever you want to post?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 11:08 AM

Jon and I were the first to leave after the last bout of shenanigans. When we left, there was still plenty of blood letting going on and others have left too. The notions of loyalty and support start to wear thin after a while.

I think it's time to leave and learn a lot of very long songs.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:34 AM

This thread WAS about the fact that threads about folk and acoustic artists have been closed down on the Music Club on the BBC. They will remain closed I'm sure, as hey...people may start to talk on there if they re-open them! As I said earlier, BBC suppression and discrimination in action!

Obviously though, that's perfectly OK by loads of people, as this thread has become, as you say, yet another moaning thread about me...my way of writing, how many !!!! I use, what percentage of threads I dared to start on the BBC...etc..etc..etc...

Sheesh!!

And THAT is why I asked the Moaning Ones to stay out of it....but er.....

Personally, over the last few days, I've lost the will to even bother anymore!!

From now on....I'll leave it to Jon and his pals......WHY should I even bother? WHY did I EVER bother?????

Put it back in it's box....for evermore....

There you go....

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: BB
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 09:22 AM

Oh well, I tried...

Barbara

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,Folkmusiclover
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 09:11 AM

What is this thread actually ABOUT? There seem to be three different conversations, one about definitions of music, one about self-moderation (or lack of), and one about self-justification and moaning. Sorry Lizzie but it just reads like that - you revived it after two days just to have another go at people you dislike or who dislike you. That's a personal argument rather than a music thread. And really the acts you mention - all good ones, worth giving a listen to - are already pretty well known. We didn't need you to "open our eyes" to people who have been performing for decades and are popular in their own right.

Your enthusiasm and obvious love for the music is valuable, your repeated ranting & raving is not. You really don't have any right to accuse others of venting their spleen when you do it just as much or even more.

Re-read BB's last post, and take it to heart. Please.

I know you don't like guests but sorry I don't feel like putting a cookie in my computer over this.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 08:55 AM

>>>>The "Music Club" board does (a little to my surprise) attemt to cater for a variety of musical tastes and folk music has been discussed to some degree by others including myself without the problems Lizzie is encountering.<<<<<


BLOODY ANGRY WARNING!! DO NOT ENTER FURTHER IF IN FRAIL HEALTH!!!!!



Ye Gods And Little Fishes!!!!!!!!!!!!

What sanctimonious claptrap!

OK...I'm yelling now!!!


THE ONLY REASON THAT YOU ARE NOW OVER ON THE MUSIC CLUB BOARD JON, DISCUSSING FOLK MUSIC, IS BECAUSE I WENT OVER THERE LAST WEEK TO TALK ABOUT SHOW OF HANDS BEING ON JOHNNIE WALKER, THE OYSTERBAND, SETH LAKEMAN, RICHARD THOMPSON ET AL....AND I STARTED TO OPEN UP THEIR EYES TO A WHOLE GENRE OF MUSIC, THAT THEY EITHER DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT OR WEREN'T INTERESTED IN.....AND ALL HELL BROKE LOOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEY HAVE ALREADY VENTED THEIR SPLEENS ALL OVER ME.....AS DID YOU, FIONA AND A WHOLE LOT MORE!!!!!!!!!!!

THEN, ONE OF 'THEM' DECIDED TO HAVE A THREAD ON KARINE POLWART, NO DOUBT TRYING TO BE HELPFUL.....AND IT WORKED!

MEANWHILE ALL THE POISONOUS GNOMES FROM THE RADIO 2 BOARD, JUMPED ON BOARD TO THWACK AND VERBALLY PUNCH ME AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!!!!EVEN THOUGH I HAD LEFT YOU ALL ALONE, LEFT YOU TO YOUR 'OWN' BOARD........

and now.......NOW.....you sit there saying piously..."Oh...WE can all discuss folk music and no-one bats an eyelid!"

JUMPING JEHOSAPHATS!!!!!!

NOW...NOW!!!! I've heard EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!

SHEESH!

HOLY CATFISH!

BLISTERING *********** BARNACLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 08:10 AM

Where do you draw the line though? Segregation against the will of another exists even in Mudcat. Shambles for example might be very upset if he saw a post moved from the music section to the BS section.

An answer to that may well be "well it's Max's" forum, another might be that it is a rational logical split appropriate for the board. That applies to the BBC too, surely they have the rights to categorise as they feel fit and in a manner that to them feels logical for the needs of their site? I still think everything, even just everything musical in just one big board would be impossible there.

The issue raised by Lizzie, is based on a false premis though. Although I had assumed it was a categorising issue and would have been happy with the situation (unless applied with a rod of iron) as Folk is a genre lucky enough to be dedicated a section unlike soul for example, the opening question:

"Are you all happy for Folk And Acoustic music to be only spoken about on the Folk and Acoustic board?"

is wrong. The "Music Club" board does (a little to my surprise) attemt to cater for a variety of musical tastes and folk music has been discussed to some degree by others including myself without the problems Lizzie is encountering. To use these terms, so called "Folkies" and "non Folkies" have participated.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 07:56 AM

Did you ireally mean to post here, possibly?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Charmain
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 07:37 AM

Ok its not racism but it is separation and when separation is enfoced against the will of another it is then segregation and segregation is supposed to be a bad thing isn't it?
Why does everything always have to be seperated out into little neat boxes - to paraphrase the late, great John Peel (who claimed the Oldham Tinkers "come whaom to thi childer" as one of his all time favourite recordings) - where's the dividing line between folk/world music and all the other music - all music is folk/world music - its played by folk in the world isn't it?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 07:04 AM

I've never knowingly heard any of the groups you recommend here

Well you have probably at least heard of one of the Show Of Hands musicains, Phil Beer. I gather Miranda Sykes plays (only sometimes???) with them too - not sure if you would have come accross her but she is a superb bass player and singer.

It's one of those bands to me, excellent musicains but I don't care much for much of the material which to me is more "accoustic pop" than folk music but that's another debate in itself...

Anyway, here is thier site.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 05:41 AM

Liz Cornish wrote:
: I can't even talk about the music I want to talk about on their new board. It's appalling.

I wouldn't want to read a board filled with obsessional ranting like yours. The BBC has an abligation to its readers to keep their stuff varied and interesting, and if you were allowed to do what you'd like, you'd bore every single reader they had into leaving.

I've never knowingly heard any of the groups you recommend here, and nothing you've posted has done a single solitary thing to make me want to - rather the contrary, I tend to think "if those groups only appeal to repetitive bores they can't be for me".

If you're the same Lizzie Cornish who writes for quilting magazines you must be getting a LOT of help from your editor. Perhaps you'd be better off writing about music on edited media too.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 04:44 AM

While I don't find Lizzie's post upsetting or offensive, it is quite clear from some of the replies on the message board that others have taken offense at what she has written. Mostly, I suspect, because of the excess of capitals and exclamation marks which can be wearing to read.

What I see is almost an excess of enthusiasm and we need some enthusiasm as we see too much cynicism these days.

Barbara's point "you obviously write as you think and speak, rather than working it all out beforehand and coming over as cool, calm and collected. I actually rather like that." is a fair one, but nevertheless you do have to be more careful in print as there is no voice inflection or body language to give clues as to your true position on a topic, so I do think it is important that you do think about what you are writing and review it before you are sending.

The two specific conditions that I suspect Lizzie has run foul of in the BBC's terms and conditions are

* Repeatedly post the same or similar messages (referred to as 'spam')

* Are considered likely to provoke, attack or offend others

More likely the former than the latter IMHO.

So, Please Lizzie;

continue to be enthusiastic about traditional music, enjoy it and share your enthusiasm with others. However, when you are posting to message boards just try to think for a moment about the potential impact on others of what you write and if necessary, tone it down a little bit before hitting "submit". Also most message boards have a "Preview" button or check box. Use it to give yourself a second chance to think about what you have written.

Yours, I hope helpfully, - as have the last few posts been

Geoff

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 04:07 PM

I can understand that Barbara, I suppose I'm a bit of a "world weary folkie" but I remember when I first encountered Lizzie, I think on the BBC F&A board, there were a few comments about Lizzie having only relatively recently discovered folk music and the enthuisam and excitement she showed.

That was once amongst the reasons this member of the "Radio 2 F&A usual 'Gang Of Pathetic Suspects'" did at least at one time try to offer some degree of support to her.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 04:05 PM

Ahem. I don't think LC gets excited over the music, exactly . . .

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: BB
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 03:51 PM

OK, I haven't been to the Radio 2 Boards, and therefore perhaps shouldn't comment, but I have seen Lizzie's posts here, and sometimes wish that there were others with her sense of excitement over the music.

Perhaps, Lizzie, that plea for a little self-moderation should be taken seriously, then perhaps everyone would be happier, and there would be less need for the nastiness that seems to get thrown around on here.

Barbara

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 03:22 PM

Not really Barbara, although I do find shouting and excessive punctuation marks anoying.

It is Lizzie's excesses in general that get most people down. I did a thread count of the first 50 threads yesterday moring. Out of that 50, Lizzie was responsible for starting 14 - yes over 1/4 of those threads were Lizzies, and going by comments in the few I read, some were repeats/reruns. It's hardly surprising that someone should for example point out that we do have a specialised F&A board if that volume of output is being produced.

The general complaint over on the Music Club board is not about folk music (there is in fact a "what is folk to you thread that has been running for 2 days without problem on that board), Lizzie's groups, exclamation marks or anything other than a general plea for some degree of self moderation but any reasonable request to Lizzie is at least met with an increase in effectively trying to ram stuff down the throats of others.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: BB
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 02:48 PM

I understand why people get upset with you, Lizzie. It's because they can't cope with all the capital letters and exclamation marks which you use to express yourself with. Personally, I find that they really do express both your enthusiasm and your frustration, and they don't particularly annoy me - you obviously write as you think and speak, rather than working it all out beforehand and coming over as cool, calm and collected. I actually rather like that. Those who get annoyed should perhaps listen to what you actually say, rather than immediately reacting to the look of your posts.

And 'guests' who don't identify themselves really are beneath contempt, and as far as I'm concerned have no right to criticise those who are quite open about who they are.

Don't let the buggers get you down...

Barbara

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:06 PM

Of course youre not going to reply. You know its the truth.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:54 PM

Er...Tootler, the BBC have ONLY been putting my posts on there in the first place because they HAVE been checked completely and they have passed all the House Rules!

And still there has been no answer as to why those threads on three lots of musicians have been locked. You may be into suppression and discrimination of various artists...I am not.

You'll excuse me if I don't answer the er 'person' above you.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:48 AM

Lizzie,

I'm afraid I can see exactly why the BBC have excluded you.

Click on the "House Rules" Link on one of your blocked messages and you should be able to work it out for yourself.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 08:31 AM

So now you start a Mudcat thread to whinge about how badly youre being treated by the BBC, which is what this is all about.

Wonder why they dont like you there

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 08:26 AM

Well, it had to happen!

I've just been banned from the BBC for a whole week (shiver me timbers) because I damn well keep asking WHY????????

Posts and threads about Seth Lakeman, The Oysterband and Yusuf Islam came back on last night..AND...they were all OPEN!!

So...on I went, to happily inform people that they were now back, they'd moved to page 4 and some people may have overlooked them....those messages were deemed spam...er...even though the BBC themselves allowed them on (they weren't spam, just informative)...then they got rid of them....THEN they removed the titles and posts about Seth and The Oysterband, completely....AGAIN!!!!!.....and the Yusuf one from last night (which I posted way back, went on the board and disappeared. I'd started another one, which is still on there)....has now also gone, although this is for the best as the second thread was very similar, just with a different link in......which was removed anyway..even though there was no earthly reason to do that!

(Anyone lost the will to live yet?!) ;0)


However, the Show of Hands one is STILL closed as are the Show of Hands 'Mystery' one and the Seth Lakeman 'Mystery'. WHY?????

Meanwhile the 'official complaints section' of the BBC told me to write to the mods...and the mods told me to write to the 'official complaints section' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So....I thought I'd put the post, which has obviously made them all apply for Early Retirement, on here:


_____________________________________________________________________


>>>>Subject:
SUPPRESSION OF ARTISTS AND MUSIC

Posting:
TO THE MODS and HOST OF THIS BOARD


WHERE ARE YOU?

WHO ARE YOU?

WHAT THE BLAZES ARE YOU DOING??????????

No-one will answer me!!!

I have now made THREE official complaints about this board and what is going on here...and have been told that if I have a problem, then I should write to the Mods!!!!!!!!

BUT...I write to the Mods, er....all the time at present.....and guess what???????

THEY NEVER WRITE BACK!!!!!!


Meanwhile posts of mine in which EVERY SINGLE WORD AND LINK is checked first, as I am on pre-mod, are happily placed on this board, then....they are ***removed***...along with titles.....and I am told they are SPAM!!!! It is chaotic and a complete shambles!!!!

HOW can ONE thread and one post on The Oysterband be SPAM?????? The Oysterband Mystery was ONLY started up because the original thread was removed...it contains nothing about the band....merely asking WHY the original thread went!! And that thread is now closed down!!??????

HOW can ONE thread and post, in which every single thing has been pre-chekced by you, the Mods, before being permitted on this board...then be SPAM...or have links in which are deemed commercial?

Every links is pre-examined. They are purely links to artists websites, which are permitted on all other boards............AND...if I put a link in right now to the BBC Cambridge Folk Festival...it would be allowed to stay....YET should also be viewed in exactly the same way as any other link is now being viewed!!!!!

And NO! this thread is NOT inflammatory. This thread is ONLY here, because NO-ONE at the BBC will tell me what the **************** is going on??????????

And WHY has the SHOW OF HANDS thread been closed down? And WHY has the second Seth Lakeman thread also been closed down? Again, just as with The Oysterband, it was *only* started because the MODS REMOVED the FIRST THREAD COMPLETELY!!

AND **WHY** are you returning these threads and posts....and then removing them again???????????

I can obviously NOT write about Seth Lakeman, The Oysterband or Show of Hands...and as I view this as discrimination and suppression, I want to know WHY!!!! I truly do not think this is too much to ask!!

This is causing chaos and it needs sorting!!!!!!!

NONE of my posts are breaking House Rules, because they are all being checked against the House Rules in the first place!!!

PLEASE TELL US WHAT IS GOING ON????????

YOU are causing these problems Mods....NOT ME!!!
I merely wanted to write about 'The Music That You Love' as I am permitted to do and encouraged to do by those very words on YOUR board...and yet....LOOK what is happening!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Lizzie
<<<<<<

__________________________________________________________________



And yet.....STILL I have no answers!!

Deeply appalling BBC!

Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:37 PM

Try telling that to the BBC Peter. I can't even talk about the music I want to talk about on their new board. It's appalling.

And folk *should* be mainstream again. I don't think of it as 'my' music though or 'our' music, it's just music....and I feel that talking of it as 'ours' is one of the problems that has held it back.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM

Once upon a time, folk music was mainstream. Its popularity has been supplanted by other forms that seem more relevant to those who like it. It took some time and repeated visits for me to appreciate the beauty, value and place of folk music and traditional music in particular. My experience with my children is that they will tolerate my chosen music as much as I will tolerate theirs. Encouragement is one thing but when people are told that is is what they should like, they tend to go elsewhere (unless it is the 50 best things about .... in the broadsheet newspapers). So please, let's not foist "our" music on others, but encourage.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 10:11 AM

'Tis OK.....it's my thread and if people want to veer of into fRoots, then they have my permission, not that it's needed by the way, of course ;0)


Titles are coming back over on the BBC, but...the threads are still locked!!

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 08:42 AM

If you have something to say about the July Editor's Box from which I was quoting, you could always make a contribution to the fRoots forum. It seems a tad inappropriate to be sounding off here in a thread which is about someone's perception of strange behaviour at the BBC. How off-topic can you get?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 08:17 AM

>>fRoots has a readership of 40,000 and the online forum has 673 registered users:

Countess, unless you haven'yt noticed, no one has posted on the fRoots "letters page" in 24 hours, and that is not unusual.

23 people voted in the "shall we ban the trolls" poll, and that has been going a whole month too to even get that many.

I'm always very sceptical about "readership" as opposed to "copies sold" figures.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 04:27 AM

Bloody 'ell Al, calm down, it's too early.

eric

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 03:38 AM

fRoots and BBC

lost causes.

it was ever thus.

In the 1970's. melody Maker used to do this competition every year. The melody maker Folk Rock Competition. open to all comers.

Two years running - Andy Dwyer was placed. Voted best soloist. he was a young Brummy, he was working class and he didn't have a clue how folKies were supposed to dress and behave. he'd turn up to gigs in his beat suit, and shake hands formally with the club organiser.

Yet his songs were something else. there was one extraordinarily powerful one about the buses with segregated facilities for Black people, we were building for South Africa in Birmingham factories.

singer songwriters - oh they are old stuff. Punks the thing nowadays, they would say - that's real working class music. My arse!

I've just seen so much important English music die of neglect. ian wants to patronise Zulu satirists, and Portuguese bongo players, and whoever has got a decent recording contract. Radio 2 thinks the future of folk music is jigs and reels that nobody dances to, and songs about collier laddies.

Bollocks to the lot of them. they will always have some reason for not being interested in what is going on in the folk clubs. its never going to be Britpop or Shitpop enough for them.

Now there is the internet - we don't need them.

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:47 AM

fRoots has a readership of 40,000 and the online forum has 673 registered users:

http://www.frootsmag.com/

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Effsee
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:31 PM

"That's pretty much the entire readership of the magazine, isn't it?"

If that's the case, how come it survives in this oh so commercial world?

Subject: RE: BBC Radio 2 Boards And Music Racism
From: Mr Fox
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:57 PM

"In nearly two years of the the fRoots forum's existence, Ian Anderson has banned a total of four users: two for being abusive (one to me), one for being a terminally boring troll and one for smiley abuse and unfunny silliness"


That's pretty much the entire readership of the magazine, isn't it?