Flower of Scotland, official?

Subject: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:02 PM

I'm a bit surprised there's nothing here related to this item in today's New York Times (though I see now that it's still "unofficial":

Scottish Anthem Chosen

The votes came in not only from Britain but also from the United States, Canada, Mongolia, New Caledonia and Christmas Island. And when the online balloting was tallied, Scotland had an unofficial national anthem: "Flower of Scotland," the BBC reported. The song, heard mostly at rugby and soccer matches, was chosen over four other contenders in an online poll conducted by the Royal Scottish National Orchestra last month, a day after it played all of them at a concert in Edinburgh. Announcing the results of the poll, Simon Woods, the orchestra's chief executive, said, "I am thrilled that the R.S.N.O. has been able to use its position as Scotland's national orchestra to propel forward the debate on a new national anthem for Scotland." Earlier this year, First Minister Jack McConnell, who heads the Scottish government, said the matter needed to be resolved. In the voting, 41 percent of the 10,000 participants chose "Flower of Scotland" ; "Scotland the Brave" received 29 percent of the votes and "Highland Cathedral" 16 percent. The other contenders were "Scots Wha Ha'e" and "A Man's a Man for a' That."

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:51 PM

I thought it was: If It Wasna For Yer Feet In Yer Wellies.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: harpmolly
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM

I suppose Dougie Maclean's "Caledonia" isn't a rollicking enough singalong...;)

M

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:59 PM

Caledonia is the song of an exile from Scotland. Flower of Scotland is in the tradition of all good anthems, it socks it to the old enemy.
Giok

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Tootler
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:30 PM

Giok,

If you can tell me which side of me is my mother's (Scots) and which side is my father's (English) then I will know which side has to sock which.

I would much prefer Dick Gaughan's "Both Sides the Tweed" which has a much more profound message as well as a lovely melody, but then it is nowhere near trite enough for mass consumption.

Geoff

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:08 PM

Oh yes there are many better candidates the Flower of Scotland, but they werent on offer for the ballot.
G.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Ned Ludd
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:17 PM

I'm not getting into this one! I've already been in trouble once over 'Flower o' Scotland' and just for havin' a yorkshire accent!

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Fiona
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM

I don't especially like 'Flower of Scotland' but I'd much rather have that than 'Highland Cathedral'. I'd have rather had 'Scots Wha Hae' myself, but what really surprised me was that 'Freedom Come All Ye' wasn't even on the ballot.

fx

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:48 PM

It's not an easy song to sing, and the words would defeat many Scots, it's one of my favourites too.
G

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:49 PM

It seems to me from the animosity created by politics and the World Cup that England are no longer the old enemy, they're the new enemy. Fed up with being attacked and beginning to react.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:56 PM

Guest, you are not being attacked at all.

Now fuck off and crawl back under your stone.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:40 PM

Fiona,

"Freedom come all ye", great song though it is, couldn't qualify to be a national anthem because it's too internationalist and not patriotic for Scotland in the slightest, although it was written by a Scot in (an extremely 'artificial'? form of) Scots. I imagine (hope?) that Hamish Henderson himself would have been appalled at the suggestion that it should be a Scottish national anthem!

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: open mike
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:26 PM

the flower of scotland is a thistle, right?
perhaps Fiona will spotlight this soon on

(
the thistle and shamrock radio show )

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:30 AM

A metaphorical flower, open mike. See here in the DT.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:17 AM

Has anybody noticed that the first couple of bars of 'Flower' has been nicked from an operatic chorus ('Aida?)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:24 AM

I thought FoS came from an illicit mating of the Mingulay Boat Song with Freddie and the Dreamers' "I Understand".

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:26 AM

About 30 years ago, I was living in Scotland, and went to a folk club.

There was a guy there who was wearing a kilt and played bagpipes (no I don't think it was Lester Simpson :-) ). Anyway this guy got up and played Flower of Scotland.

All the audience (scots of course) all stood up and sang this with such venom (well that was the way it seemed to me) and gusto and passion. I felt very uncomfortable, but couldn't help feeling the emotion of that song. It came over as hatred to England, and still conjures that up to me now.

However, I must add that I had a very happy time up there and the Scots were great people to be with.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM

A very good choice, a people's favourite how can it be otherwise and very apt for here as written as a folk song!

The name escapes me at the moment but he was a member of the Scottish band 'The Corries' not to be confused with Lorries or even the Corrs

Ray

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:58 AM

Roy Williamson of The Corries wrote it.
Giok

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:34 AM

A slight over reaction Mr Gnome. Having suffered abuse in Scotland myself purely for being English I was remarking on the animosity I sense in the English to all this. "Flower of Scotland" is just another manifestation. Unfortunately I foresee many problems in the near future between the two countries, particularly political, that could lead to a break up of the Union. To many, both Scot and English this would be seen as no bad thing. However, division always leads to altercation and violence of one form or another. So I consider, as do many, that the choice of a song that perpetuates hatred and celebrates death is not a good thing for any of us.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST,englishperson
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:43 AM

If hatred of something is waht defines you, then Gawd held you.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:15 PM

After sending him "homeward to think again" after Stirling, I wonder why there wasn't a verse telling of what happened when he returned and kicked shit out of Wallace at Falkirk. Slaughtered his Spearmen with English yew and sinew. Captured him and had him hung drawn and quartered then comandeered the Stone of Scone (recently returned I believe). The song seems unfinished in my opinion (as did the film :-)

Spot the Dog (hoping to become a naturalised Scotsman this coming year)

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:28 PM

Yes, guest Jim Carroll, I have always noticed that but I think it from Nabucco, not Aida.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:12 PM

Second verse of God Save the Queen

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
Oh, save us all!

A verse that was inserted at one time but later removed

Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy mighty aid,
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush and like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

There you go Guest at 07:34 AM, it's a pretty universal thing to have bloodthirsty words in national anthems.

Giok

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:20 PM

Now thats more like it Giok LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:24 PM

I have never heard either verse sung or would ever expect to, and I have certainly never heard anyone recite them except in arguement such as yours. Neither is relevant to our world today. However, the sentiments expressed with such appetite in "Flower of Scotland" do still seem to be relevant to many Scots.
Were the English to vote for the inclusion of the above verses to be sung by our national teams etc, I think you would be able to argue your case.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:31 PM

The only reason the second verse of the British National Anthem is not normally sung is because so few people know the words to more than the first verse. They also only ever sing that first verse at sporting events so your point is invalid.
At least in Scotland you were obviously among people who know all the words to their national anthem!
G.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Alba
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:36 PM

:)

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:40 PM

My point exactly. The English don't sing it because they don't know it and don't want to know it. It isn't taught, circulated or given any credibility. The national anthem of England is also that of Scotland, being that of the British. Personally I would like to see the English adopt some other song rather than sing about the royal parasites.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:50 PM

Spot the Dog: I'm not Scottish, and not a historian, and I've always imagined this song is about Robert the Bruce and Bannockburn. You criticise it on the basis that it is about Wallace and Sterling. Could some Scottish patriot explain the facts to us Sassenachs? What does it actually mean?

Subject: Lyr Add: SCOTS WHA HAE + FIELDS OF BANNOCKBURN
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:57 PM

As with a number of other Scottish patriotic songs, the lyrics commemorate the defeat of Edward II at Bannockburn in 1314

Ergo

Scots Wha Hae

Words: Robert Burns

    Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled,
    Socts, wham Bruce has aften led;
    Welcome to your gory bed,
    Or to victorie.

    Now's the day, and now's the hour;
    See the front o' battle lour;
    See approach proud Edward's power ---
    Chains and slaverie!

    Wha will be a traitor-knave?
    Wha can fill a coward's grave?
    Wha sae base as be a slave?
    Let him turn and flee!

    Wha for Scotland's king and law
    Freedom's sword will strongly draw,
    --- Free-man stand, or Free-man fa',
    Let him follow me!

    By oppression's woes and pains!
    By your sons in servile chains!
    We will drain our dearest veins,
    But they shall be free!

    Lay the proud usurpers low!
    Tyrants fall in every foe!
    Liberty's in every blow!
    Let us do, or die!


Fields of Bannockburn

    Twas on a bonnie simmer's day,
    me English came in grand array
    King Edward's orders to obey ,
    Upon the Field of Bannockburn.

    cho: Sae loudly let the Pibroch wake
    Each loyal Clan frae hill and lake ,
    And boldly fight for Scotia's sake
    Upon the Field of Bannockburn.

    King Edward raised his standard high,
    Bruce shook his banners in reply -
    Each army shouts for victory
    Upon the Field of Bannockburn.

    The English horse wi' deadly aim
    Upon the Scottish army came;
    But hundrteds in our pits were slain
    Upon the Field of Bannockburn.

    Loud rose the war cry of McNeil,
    Who flew like tigers to the field
    And made the Sass'nach army feel
    There were dauntless hearts at Bannockburn.

    McDonald's clan, how firm their pace-
    Dark vengeance gleams in ev'ry face,
    Lang had they thirsted to embrace
    Their Sass'nach friends at Bannockburn.

    The Fraser bold his brave clan led,
    While wide their thistle banners spread-
    They boldly fell and boldly bled
    Upon the Field of Bannockburn.

    The ne'er behind brave Douglas came,
    And also with him Donald Graham,
    Their blood-red painted swords did stain
    The glorious Field of Bannockburn.

    That day King Edward's heart did mourn,
    With joy each Scottish heart did burn,
    In mem'ry now let us return
    Our thanks to Bruce at Bannockburn.

It's a long story

Giok

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:03 PM

You only managed to beat EdwardII because he liked Judy Garland and Kylie Minogue, lets face it.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:04 PM

That and the cigar smoking making him short of breath Greg ¦¬]
G.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: breezy
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:21 AM

I have a cap with the opening lines on it, bought it Lunenburg!!1 I'm sure they are readily available everywhere

The good thing about the 'british' N a is it only takes seconds to play and sing compared to many others as I had to hear 3 at the Nova Scotia Tattoo this week, no F of Scotland I'm sad to say and it would have been appropriate

Flower of scotland is an excellent choice

But we in Wales still have the trump anthem, soory , but its true and especialyy cos its in the ethnic tongue

shame about England, no identity, no hope.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Crystal
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 11:39 AM

Surely the point of a national anthem is that no-one knows the second verse! For this reason I move that Auld Lang Syne becomes scotlands anthem!

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: breezy
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:59 PM

steady, we had all the verses at the Burns nicht in Byfleet

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:53 AM

Highland Cathedral also fits the bill very well. It's in praise of the Nation, and has some notes that most people singing it won't get. It's also a much nicer tune than FoS, and less depressing. It does fail to mention slaughterin/being slaughterd by the English though....


There is a land far from this distant shore
Where heather grows and Highland Eagles soar
There is a land that will live ever more
Deep in my heart, my Bonnie Scotland

Though I serve so far away
I still see your streams, cities and dreams
I can`t wait until the day
When I`ll come home once more

So Lord keep me from the harm of war
Through all the dangers and the battles roar
Keep me safe until I`m home once more
Home to my own in Bonnie Scotland

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:06 AM

Trouble is Crystal that not only do most people not know more than the first verse of Auld Lang Syne, they also usually sing it to the wrong tune!
Giok

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Fiona
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:43 AM

Sorry bunnahabhain, I don't care for 'Highland Cathedral' at all, apart from anything else it seems to me like a song of exile.

Giok is right to say 'Scots Wha Hae' is difficult to sing, but I do vauguely remember it being sung at rugby marches befroe it was hijacked by the SNP and I learned it at school with the music teacher thumping it out on the piano, so though difficult it's not impossible to learn.

Mind if they were looking for a song to diss the English I don't think you can beat 'Cam Ye Ower Frae France', you'd get a history lesson thrown in for free too.

There is something about 'Flower Of Scotland' though, I find it a wee bit twee but it can still move me to tears. My late father taught it to his English born grandsons (complete with history lesson) and the wee ones belting it out had us all in floods.

fx

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Chris Cole
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 07:25 PM

Don't get involved. Having lived in Scotland for 6 months, I have realised that all the anti racist events I have ever attended count for nothing. Racisim is alive and kicking north of Hadrians's wall. I am desperate for people to shout and kick, but I don't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: LadyJean
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 12:29 AM

There is considerable evidence to suggest that Edward II was gay. But he was a true Plantagenet, a big man, athletic, fond of the company of other big, athletic men. There have been a number of brilliant military commanders who preferred men to women.
There is considerable evidence to suggest that Edward II was an alcoholic, but the producers of "Braveheart" left that out.

Note to Guest: Considering what Brits like to say to American tourists, serves you right.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Betsy
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 03:46 AM

Flower of Scotland certainly rouses the Scots - but it can be seen and heard as too anti-English focused, though I'm sure that Roy Williamson wrote the song (with a bit of poetic licence) as a historical piece, in the Folk genre.
Either way it hits the mark with the Scots , but maybe "Scotland the Brave" might have been a better choice - though I can't say that I know any of the words, but, it's a great rousing tune.
Extraordinary that in recent years Fields of Athenry has become THE song to sing for Liverpool football supporters, and the tune to Wild Rover is adjusted and used by every football fan /team in the Top Division in England.
So folk song DOES have some relevant place in our social life !
I would also add that most of the English football fans sing "God Save Our Team" so, no need to get too deep into that one.

Cheers

Betsy

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:58 AM

Fields of Athenry is sung by the supporters of Glasgow Celtic football club on the terraces at matches, and has thus been labelled a "Catholic song" and can no longer be sung in religiously mixed company, which I think is a shame.
The inability of many people to differentiaite between Ireland's struggle for independence in the Easter Rebellion, and the activities of the modern IRA in the Sick Counties is a sad reflection on how we teach our children. Or on how their parent's prejudices manifest themselves in their offspring.
Giok

PS How about Johnnie Cope as an anthem?

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:23 AM

Johnnie Cope!

Now there's a "thumb your nose at the English" song if ever there was one. Damn good tune as well

As a matter of historical correction. The myth that Sir John Cope brought the news of his own defeat to Berwick (or Newcastle, if you prefer) is just that. A myth. He was later exonerated by the Army in an enquiry into the battle of Prestonpans.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:01 AM

Remember the old reporters maxim Toots. 'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story'
G.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:04 AM

Very true :-)

Geoff

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST,Terri
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 02:26 AM

It's really quite too bad that Hadrian's Wall has never been able to keep the English out of Scotland.
Alba go Bragh.

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: PMB
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 04:09 AM

Perhaps that's because when Hadrian built his wall there were neither English nor Scots?

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 10:27 AM

"Fields of Athenry is sung by the supporters of Glasgow Celtic football club on the terraces at matches, and has thus been labelled a "Catholic song"...

Strange you should mention that. Last dismal weekend, when Ireland joined Wales on their exit from the Rugby World Cup, the Irish crowd were singing Fields Of Athenry - and they knew the words, too!

Subject: RE: Flower of Scotland, official?
From: GUEST,Terri
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 11:50 AM

Perhaps you don't recall that the Celts (from whom the Scottish People descend) were in the North Country of Britain long before the Romans, Anglos, Saxons, Normans, or the German descendents who hold the Throne of England now?

"Those days are past now,
and in the past they must remain,
but we can still rise now
and be that Nation again,
that stood against him
Proud Edward's army,
and sent him homeward
tae think again!"