BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:59 PM

Amos if that is the article messers Legum, Shakir, Pitney, Terkel and Schwin wrote then all I can say is that they are being tremendously selective in their interpretation of things.

Are they stating that during the Clinton era no missile tests were carried out? What about the one they test fired over Japan? That one did not count? Or was it just too inconvenient to their arguement to mention. Caused one hell of a stink at the time.

When did the process of nuclear disarmament stop? Sometime in the Clinton era when both India and Pakistan tested their newly acquired nuclear devices - Guess who helped Pakistan catch up in terms of delivery systems and what did they receive in return.

At no time at all during US/North Korean bilateral talks did the North Koreans ever give up their programme towards acquiring nuclear weapons, at no time at all did the North Koreans halt in their development of longer range delivery systems.

These clowns are trying to tell us that in two years North Korea enriched enough uranium to produce 10 warheads? Sorry all this was done during the Clinton Administration, the North Koreans themselves admitted so.

North Korea has always played threat and reward in the blackmailing of it's neighbours whenever it has engaged in bilateral talks. With five other parties involved they could always say something to one or two of them that would prevent the five partners ever getting together to collectively call North Korea to order. That is what the Bush administration realised right from the start, that is what China, South Korea, Russia and Japan have come to realise recently.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Amos
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:02 PM

NORTH KOREA
Speak Loudly And Carry No Stick

By virtually every measure, the Bush administration's North Korea policy is a failure. Diplomatic efforts have broken down, missiles are being test fired, and plutonium production has resumed. Yesterday, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow unveiled the administration's new strategy: bash Clinton. At the press conference, Snow accused the Clinton administration of going to North Korea with "flowers and chocolates" and "light water nuclear reactors." Snow said that the Clinton administration policy had "failed" and the Bush administration had "learned from that mistake." The reality is that the Bush administration is now scrambling to return to where the Clinton administration left off: meaningful diplomatic engagement that puts North Korea's nuclear program on ice.

THE CLINTON RECORD -- NORTH KOREA PRODUCES NO PLUTONIUM: In 1994, the United States almost went to war with North Korea to prevent the further development of their nuclear arsenal. (North Korea produced enough plutonium to create one or two nuclear weapons during the first Bush administration.) The conflict was narrowly avoided with the creation of the "Agreed Framework." Under the agreed framework, North Korea agreed to shut down its major nuclear reactor, stop construction of two nuclear power plants, and subject spent nuclear fuel to international inspection. In return, Japan and South Korea agreed to build two light-water reactors (far less of a proliferation concern) and the U.S. would supply North Korea with heavy oil to make up for the lost energy from its shuttered nuclear plants. Once the light-water reactors were completed, their existing nuclear reactors were to be dismantled. The deal wasn't perfect, but during the Clinton administration, North Korea didn't make any nuclear bombs. It was later discovered that the North Koreans, as early as 2000, were attempting to aquire technology for uranium enrichment which violated their agreements. It does not appear that this program advanced very far before the U.S. detected it and confronted North Korea with the evidence in 2002.

BIPARTISAN POLICY: The Clinton administration approach was a bipartisan effort. In order to fulfill its end of the bargain, Congress had to appropriate funds to finance the shipments of heavy oil. Congress, controlled at the time by staunch conservatives such as former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich (R-GA) and former Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-MS), approved the funds every year.

THE BUSH RECORD -- NORTH KOREA PRODUCES ENOUGH PLUTONIUM FOR AS MANY AS 10 NUKES: Upon taking office, the Bush administration rejected former Secretary of State Colin Powell's recommendation to "pick up where President Clinton and his administration left off." Instead, the Bush administration reversed Theodore Roosevelt's approach to foreign policy, speaking loudly but carrying no stick. The Bush administration ramped up the rhetoric. President Bush included North Korea in the "axis of evil" in his 2002 State of the Union address, and "the National Security Strategy Statement of the United States released in 2002 talked about the possible need to take preemptive military action" against North Korea. When North Korea responded by expelling international inspectors and unsealing its nuclear facilities, the Bush administration had no effective response. The result is that North Korea now has enough plutonium to produce as many as ten additional nuclear weapons. Peter Hayes of the Nautilus Institute writes, "The United States should stop huffing and puffing and threatening to blow down the North Koreans house. This will not work and simply makes America look like a big, bad wolf, albeit one who blew and blew but nothing happened."

POLICY PARALYSIS: The Bush administration has been paralyzed on North Korea, split between pragmatists who want to negotiate an end to the nuclear program and ideologues who want to end the regime. Its strategy of "six-party talks," meetings between the United States, North Korea, South Korea, China, Japan, and Russia, is a good one, but for two years these sessions went nowhere as U.S. negotiators were forbidden to actually negotiate. The hardliners counted on the Iraq war intimidating North Korea into submission. But the North accelerated its program after the Iraq invasion. When the strategy of regime elimination proved feckless, the hardliners went to Plan B: Let China do it. After North Korea test-launched several missiles on July 4, the administration "pushed China to apply more pressure on North Korea to end its missile tests and return to international nuclear disarmament talks." China will never push North Korea into a collapse that would destabilize the peninsula and send refugees flooding into China. When Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice opened direct, bilateral negotiations with North Korea in 2005, she made rapid progress producing a landmark agreement in September 2005 to end the nuclear program. But it was immediately sabotaged by hardliners who wanted to squeeze the North by blocking bank credits. The Korean responded with missile tests. It's time to put Rice back in charge and to negotiate a final end to the nuclear and missile programs.

Judd Legum, Faiz Shakir, Nico Pitney
Amanda Terkel and Payson Schwin


(From a mailing called "The Progressive Report") www.thinkprogress.org

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:30 AM

Anonny Mouse asks:

what sleazeball national leader WITHOUT missiles would not buy hisself some so he can sit at the "adults' table"?

My personal guess is that the most promising potential customers for the North Korean short range missiles are not thinking about buying diplomatic credibility. They'd probably just want to shoot them at "something," although if "something" gets lucky they might just use them for tactical credibility.

Using them for "credibility" purposes poses the problem that to be credible, the buyers would have to reveal what they have, which of course would make it clear where they came from. North Korea quite likely would take a dim view of being "fingered" in any obvious way as a participant.

Of course they might have a perfectly legitimate customer in mind and cows may all give chocolate milk on Tuesdays for the next few weeks.

John

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:11 PM

I have been eating kimchi for over thirty years. Had over a hundred kinds. Never yet with fruit. BUT, I have a year or two left, so I'll try it.

Also, you can get very mild kimchi (I prefer the hot). In fact, make your own and you can make it as mild as you wish.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM

So dubblepew & all the other world leaders are talkin' bout more sanctions & what not so's to teach thet thar feller a lesson--humph!
Sanctions, smanctions! I think that we should load up all the used diapers from all the babies in America (now them's some serious WMDs!!) into a rocket & fire it at kim & mentally ill jin. That'd teach him not to go shootin' off his dumb ol' missiles.




jeepers, Peace, I never saw any fruit in Kimchi when I was over there. Never heard of Broccoli in it either. Sounds interesting! Of course, while I can make it, I never ate the kimchi as my innards don't tolerate spicy hot foods. Does the nutcase of the north eat his kimchi with fruit in it? Perhaps you should send him the recipe.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 07:11 PM

I love kimchi. Recipe here.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: GUEST,folk1e
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 07:06 PM

One inportant point is that it will give a level of justifiability to the USA for there anti missile programme! I mean even they are giving up on blaming the Ruski threat, and this is a good excuse. WAR, what it isn't good for....

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 03:13 PM

it could be worse...they could be preparing a kimchi missle. (traditional recipe)

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 01:04 AM

Some things never change.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 01:01 AM

I Am the Very Model of a Modern Major-General
I am the very model of a modern Major-General,
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical,
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
I'm very well acquainted too with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news---
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.

I'm very good at integral and differential calculus,
I know the scientific names of beings animalculous;
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

I know our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's,
I answer hard acrostics, I've a pretty taste for paradox,
I quote in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus,
In conics I can floor peculiarities parablous.
I can tell undoubted Raphaels from Gerard Dows and Zoffanies,
I know the croaking chorus from the Frogs of Aristophanes,
Then I can hum a fugue of which I've heard the music's din afore,
And whistle all the airs from that infernal nonsense Pinafore.

Then I can write a washing bill in Balylonic cuneiform,
And tell you every detail of Caractacus's uniform;
In short, in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

In fact, when I know what is meant by "mamelon" and "ravelin",
When I can tell at sight a chassepôt rifle from a javelin,
When such affairs as sorties and surprises I'm more wary at,
And when I know precisely what is meant by "commissariat",
When I have learnt what progress has been made in modern gunnery,
When I know more of tactics than a novice in a nunnery:
In short, when I've a smattering of elemental strategy,
You'll say a better Major-General has never sat a gee---

For my military knowledge, though I'm plucky and adventury,
Has only been brought down to the beginning of the century;
But still in matters vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I am the very model of a modern Major-General.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:48 AM

Guess it was 7 (final count) not 6. Like it matters. I agree it's a good marketing ploy--I mean, what sleazeball national leader WITHOUT missiles would not buy hisself some so he can sit at the "adults' table"?

"...what nature doesn't do to us (whistle)...will be done by our fellow man." (thwack out a non-existent, dissonant chord), ala the Guard Trio's Hungry i performance of Harnack's "Merry (little) Minuet." Funny--that song is about 50 years old, and with a very minor tweak here or there couldda been written yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:21 PM

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:16 PM

Then there's these.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:56 PM

That was an interesting post, JohninKansas. I see what you mean about demonstrating a saleable product to interested potential buyers. Well stated.

The Whoflungpoo missile and the Taepodong 2 both sound quite impressive, but can they match the....

Doppelganger VI

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:28 PM

Hell, Iraq is doing THAT!

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 07:25 PM

He maybe be an asshole, a rat with funny hair, the head of a gangster regime of a shithouse country that can't feed it's people ... but he is making the most powerful nation and the richest nation look like fools.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:47 PM

This shithouse of a world has room for many rats.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:51 PM

Nice 'ring' to Dongpauwang .... unlike the Scud.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:20 PM

I don't disagree with you. But at least get his name right when you call him the dipshit he is. And, if I'm gonna be nuked, I want to have the missile that killed me called by its correct name. Sheesh. Like, who wants to be cremated by a Dongpauwang ICBM when he could be crisped by a Taepodong 2. It's a matter of class. We all gotta go, but when I do I want it to be with elan, style. Getting sent off by a Dongpauwang just sounds a bit lascivious.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:12 PM

Hey Peace-ya can take advice from me, or not. Tell me I don't speak/write the truth about Kim Jango ILL II? Or the failure of his DongWangPuta missile?

So...if I don't get the names right, does it matter to you? A rose by any other name....heheheh

WhooflungPoo works for me where this psycho is concerned. So he writes operas, eh? whadda talented guy. Maybe he can stage them with all the crispy corpses, cancer-riddled, burnt ex-members of the human race he "annihillates" with his little power plays.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:05 PM

Heh! That's nasty! Jay Leno must be a nasty man. The North Koreans will boil him in oil if they get hold of him, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

According to Jay Leno, Kim Jong Il has a brother. Named 'Mentally'.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:00 AM

Ah yes: Note that they did make 5 apparently successful launches of the shorter range missiles in a very short time span. A very important capability for quantity sales ... ...

U.S. and Japanese officials said six missiles were fired in all, launched over a four-hour period beginning about 3:30 a.m. Wednesday (2:30 p.m. Tuesday EDT). (Boston Globe Report)

John

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:47 AM

there are only 2 feasible uses for such weapons

Not quite only two. There have been reports of North Korea making "overtures" (sometimes called sales pitches) to others who might see different uses for especially the shorter range missile.

The tests are seen, by those who believe those reports, as a "reliability demonstration" to support the possible sales.

Of course any such sale would need a "front man" (or country) who could conceal the agreement with the actual customers and allow the missiles to be "mysteriously stolen," "lost in transit," or otherwise spirited away, etc. etc. ...

If this suggested motive for the tests is given any credence(????) the apparently successful launches of the short range missiles provide the "proof" to support the marketing effort for those missiles, and the long range missile was perhaps tossed into the mix, with little or no hope of a successful flight, just to keep the world busy with the notion that N. Korea has some "world ambition."

To keep the idea of "intent" viable as a diplomatic tool, a successful flight of the long range missile was not really needed.

An open question for the N. Korean missiles, regardless of how far they can toss one, is whether they can hit what the throw one at. Any information our government has on the potential accuracy would of course be classified - probably at very high levels, but for such missiles there are fairly good guidance systems that can be plagiarized, bought, stolen, reverse-engineered, or otherwise acquired; but you can't do much damage with a long range missile without one (at least, you can't do an intended damage on purpose).

The possible customers for the short range ones possibly don't really care what they hit, as long as it makes a big boom.(?) The shorter range missiles do appear to have sufficient payload capacity to make a pretty big hole with conventional explosives.

All purely speculation, of course; but the obvious intent isn't always the main, or only, one.

John

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:52 AM

OK, so the sign says Brandon.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:47 AM

Or maybe not. Could be Rimouski.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:46 AM

Yeah. Well, I'm posting from Halifax right now.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:43 AM

You don't wanna get bombed in Saint John Peace ... if you do, you never will find your way back out!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:42 AM

Your on to something there Peace .... Lucy in the Sky actually meant Kim Jong ... Holy f**k !!!

and then there was "Back in the USSR"

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:39 AM

I got bombed in Halifax once. Never in Saint John.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:38 AM

My GAWD. We may have found more than the Fifth Beatle. Check THIS out.

"Birth 'blessed'

The cult surrounding Kim Jong-il extends even to his birth. He was born in Siberia in 1941 when his father, Kim Il-sung, was in exile in the former Soviet Union.

But according to official North Korean accounts, he was born in a log cabin at his father's guerrilla base on North Korea's highest mountain, Mt Paektu, in February 1942.

The event was reportedly marked by a double rainbow, and a bright star in the sky."

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:36 AM

How many bombs ... hmmmmm ... I'd say at least 2 mega tonne hydrogen bombs ... 1 for the oil refinery, 1 for the ship yards ... but then again from the air Saint John looks like it already has been bombed to smithereens so may Kim Jong won't bother with us ... but, ya gotta be proactive and take caution.

Duck, Take cover says Bert!

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:34 AM

At last: We have quite by accident discovered the Fifth Beatle. You da man, sIx.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:33 AM

Hey ... Kim Jong has class ok ... not only does he write Operas, but he has good taste in women, fine booze, and possesses the largest collection of movies in North Korea ... hell, I heard he even wears Beatle boots.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:33 AM

Listen, sIx, ya don't wanna cut corners with bomb shelters. BTW, how many bombs do you want to shelter in this building you're making?

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:30 AM

Thanks for the lead Peace ... 3 million is kinda steep though ... I could save some if I go for just the 1 door model ... I hear Haliburton products and services are damned good ... I mean they must be if the U.S.government is their largest customer base.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:29 AM

As to Kim Jong Il: Hell, he writes OPERAS. Think about it. OPERAS!

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:25 AM

Hey. Regarding the shelter: You could probably get one made for you by Halliburton. Shouldn't cost more than two, three million dollars. Doors extra, however.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:08 AM

"And yes, he's as crazy as a shithouse rat."

... maybe (and probably) Kim Jong is, but don't forget everything we read about him is Western propaganda.

They (North Koreans) are probably just as scared by Bush, whom they consider "crazy as a shithouse rat" ... and in some ways, do you blame them.

All in all ... it's one crazy old world ... and just getting crazier.

sIx ... staying up late, working on a blueprint for a backyard bombshelter. Humming along to Bert the Turtle's "Duck and Cover"

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:57 PM

And yes, he's as crazy as a shithouse rat.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Peace
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:53 PM

Bush is doing the same thing to the US, but much more slowly.


As to your rant: Generally I agree with you about the sanity of the North Korean leadership, but I don't think I'll be taking advice from you because you kinda screw up all the facts.

The ICBM that failed is called the Taepodong 2.

The leader to whom you make reference (I think) is named Kim Jong Il.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:44 PM

So it's up to 6 missiles. 5 short-range SCUD's--and the big Dongpauwang ICBM (It Cant Be Much), which fell apart or blew up not far from it's launching pad. Awwwwwww; evewy body cwy.

HooFlungPoo or whatever his name is, is a raving lunatic, a psychotic nutjob, starving his country to death so he can play with big boy's toys. Scary thing is a pop-gun would be lethal in this total dipwad's possesion.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:21 PM

I belive the solution being adopted goes something like this: Wait until   North Korea has starved to death, and then do something.....

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:19 PM

For a country like North Korea...a small country...there are only 2 feasible uses for such weapons.

1. as a deterrent against attack by a larger power.

2. or as Teribus suggested...as a psychological pressure tactic to manipulate other countries into providing aid, etc.

For them to use those weapons to launch a first attack on China or Japan or Alaska or anyone else would be an act of stark, suicidal insanity. I very much doubt they are anywhere near that insane. Therefore, I suggest that the Chinese and Americans and Japanese and so on have no reaon to fear North Korean missiles unless they were to attack the North Koreans first, and I mean a major attack. Even in that case, those missiles would probably be used to hit the staging forces near North Korea that were launching that attack. That would be the sensible response, militarily speaking.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 06:56 PM

Fireworks, what's the panic???? Their neighbours invented them.

In 1950 the North Koreans embarked upon a war of aggression against South Korea - That war was never resolved, there is no armistace only a "ceasefire agreement", typical UN, that the North Koreans can call ended at any time. They won't because the North Koreans know that they can test missiles in the hope of blackmailing aid out of countries prepared to swallow their bullshit. Unfortunately over the years it has become apparent that North Korea can test missiles until they are blue in the face, they have acquired their "possible" 10 nuclear warheads at the expense of beggaring and starving their own population, seems to be lost on most here. Their "enemy" the US could turn their country into glass at the blink of an eye, if North Korea ever realistically mounted a threat to the peace and stability of the region. In actual fact it is not the US that the North Koreans want to worry about but the Chinese, as they too would not let North Korea get away with anything so stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:47 PM

"North Korea test-launched at least two mid-range missiles Wednesday that landed in the Sea of Japan, Japanese media reported,..." news.google.com

Subject: RE: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: GUEST,Alice
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:44 PM

Maybe I should have also posted the news that they test fired missiles about a half hour ago.

Subject: BS: the range of NORTH KOREA's missiles
From: Alice
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:22 PM

Here's a map showing the range of missiles that North Korea is testing. Paranoid totalitarian government. scary

Click here