BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?

Subject: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 08:59 AM

Hybrids could persuade humans that we're not above nature By David P. Barash. (In the St. Paul Pioneer Press)

"GENETICISTS studying human and chimpanzee DNA have concluded that a few million years ago, pre-humans and pre-chimps produced hybrids between the two species. And in the American evolutionary wars, this is good news...."

Another copy of the same article, from the Los Angeles Times.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:11 AM

This explains a lot about Little Hawk doesn't it?   I mean it's gotta' be this.....what with Chonga and all......right?

If not, then he is the living proof that Eskimos butt-fucked caribou...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:27 AM

This is true, there are such hybrids even today. I've seen them at public swimming pools and beaches, even at some bars.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:27 AM

Come to think of it, there's one in the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:30 AM

Yes, but the one in the White House can even speak and say "shit."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: skipy
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:49 AM

There is a whole troop of them in Stanford in the Vale (twinned with Royston Vasey).
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Sorcha
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 10:22 AM

This is good news? We'd all be smarter????

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:08 AM

The idea has been explored in fiction.
"Firstborn" & "Chimera" were films or TV Series which revolved about such things. Actually, "Firstborn" was about a human-gorilla hybrid, but these days we know that Gorillas are relatively distant relatives to the 3 chimp species,(commom, pygmy, & naked).

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 11:10 AM

"Shit"? Well, there's just about enough of that between your ears to light off a small firecracker pop-bang, ain't there, Spaw?

Look, folks, if I had had my way with a number of slinky dames I have known there probably would be some human-chimp hybrids runnin' around by now...but there ain't. Trust me.

It's too bad. It would have been an improvement to the human line, if ya ask me.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:09 PM

but the one in the White House can even speak and say "shit."

Yeah, but he gives it three syllables.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Kaleea
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:43 PM

whad'dya mean if?

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:47 PM

I don't see how human-chip hybrids are possible. First, chips are made from potatoes. Humans are made from other stuff, not all of which is starch. Vodka can be made from potatoes, too, and ya don't hear people talkin' about human-vodka hybrids, do ya?

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 03:52 PM

I'd like to have a hybrid that ran on vodka. Cheaper than gasoline, ya just throw in a bunch of potatoes, and brrrrrrrrttt off you go!


A

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:05 AM

I know someone who is entirely fuel by gin...... would that count?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:43 AM

Dubya, a cross between a chipanzee and Alfred E Newman.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:25 AM

I have a teenage grandson who is made almost entirely of chips, plus some tomato ketchup.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:38 AM

If we crossed humans with Bonobo chimps the resulting hybrids would make love not war. A definite improvement on Homo Sapiens.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:35 AM

Come to think of it, there's one in the White House.

A vile slander on chimps of which you should be duly ashamed.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:19 PM

"If we crossed humans with Bonobo chimps the resulting hybrids would make love not war. A definite improvement on Homo Sapiens."

You mean Bonobos know what foreplay and cuddling is?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:30 PM

LTS -

So far as I've heard, the average "event" is about the same for Chimps and Bonobos - around 8 seconds - and the frequency is quite similar - a few dozen times daily. The more matriarchal influence in Bonobos seems mostly associated "other social graces," so the most likely result would be limited to an easier acceptance of things like bathing, dressing, going out for ... etc. Maybe the hybrid would let her have the remote, and get his own beer occasionally. (?)

John

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:08 PM

Hmmm..I think I went to school with a Bonobo...that sounds like ol' "Wham-Bam" Johnson"

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:29 PM

Chongo claims he can last a half-hour, easy. He might be lying, though.

On the other hand, a few dozen times a day is not bad at all.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 05:01 PM

That explains the Moron Pumpernikel Choir

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:10 PM

Would human-chimp hybrids like get more miles per gallon?

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

Oh.. it really IS a banana in your pocket...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 07:29 PM

But I'm still glad to see you, anyhow!

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:34 PM

If we crossed humans with bonobos we might end up with people with very strange and elaborate bottoms. The clothing industry would have to market some large and peculiar pants.

Why do bonobos have such roccoco rear ends? No doubt other bonobos find them sexy!

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 01:56 PM

It's Mandrills (baboons) who have those rainbow-colored rear ends, not Bonobos.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM

Not to deliberately insult Chongo, but I seem to recall reading the opinion that Orangs were genetically closer to humans than chimps. If so, that would make them a more likely candidate for hybridization with humans. A few of the Orangs I've seen in the zoos looked "quite manly" (regardless of sex). Chimps are just cute.

Does anyone know a site with a good "genetic divergences" chart that indicates %deviance in DNA for a variety of apes? My search (brief) didn't turn up much.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

Last orang utan I saw in a zoo looked like a cross between a red coconut mat and a rubber suit full of custard...

Actually, yes... I think you're probably right, they ARE closer to men.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:53 PM

Well Liz, an acquaintance once remarked that one we were observing at the zoo had an "executive countenance;" but most of them I've seen haven't been tall enough for promotion where I worked my last few years (that seemingly being the only requirement there).

John

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:14 PM

"Short people, they got no reason
Short people, they got no reason
Short people, they got no reason to live..."

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: GUEST,that reminds me
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 08:19 PM

As a child I used to be taken to the zoo, where there was a 'monkey temple' - a flight of wide shallow steps where the monkeys would sit in small family groups, having a scratch, looking at the view and the other monkeys, while the little ones chased each other up and down the steps and annoyed the grown-ups.

Some years later I was in Brighton at the sea front. There was a flight of wide shallow steps where the people sat in small family groups, having a scratch, loking at the view and the other people, while the little ones chased each other up and down the steps and annoyed the grown-ups . . .

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 10:05 PM

Maybe only your great¹⁰⁰⁰grandparents know for sure...

Geneticists studying human and chimpanzee DNA have concluded that a few million years ago, pre-humans and pre-chimps produced hybrids between the two species.

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: GUEST,Joe_F
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:53 PM

Be careful to distinguish between *hybrids*, which are offspring of matings between different species, and *chimeras*, which are the result of fusion of early embryos from the same or different species. Mules are hybrids of donkeys & horses; every cell of a mule contains both donkey & horse genes. Geeps (actually, I think there has only been one so far) are chimeras of goats & sheep; every cell of a geep is either a goat cell or a sheep cell. Hybrids can only be made from closely related species, but chimeras can be made from remarkably different ones. There have even been human-rabbit chimeras (not allowed to mature, but sacrificed at an early stage to harvest stem cells). There is said to be nothing to prevent the production of human-chimpanzee chimeras except that most humans, including even me, are squicked by the idea.

--- Joe Fineman    [e-mail]

||: The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything. :||

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:06 AM

An earlier article quoting the original opinion on which the current round of news was at http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/05/17/human.chimp.split.ap/index.html: DNA study: Human-chimp split was messy, but appears to be no longer available. It may be archived at cnn, but they require a registration for "deep searches."

[extracted quotes]

Wednesday, May 17, 2006; Posted: 1:03 p.m. EDT (17:03 GMT)

NEW YORK (AP) -- Humans and chimps diverged from a single ancestral population through a complex process that took 4 million years, according to a new study comparing DNA from the two species.

By analyzing about 800 times more DNA than previous studies of the human-chimp split, researchers from the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard were able to learn not just when, but a little bit about how the sister species arose.

"For the first time we're able to see the details written out in the DNA," said Eric Lander, founding director of the Broad Institute. "What they tell us at the least is that the human-chimp speciation was very unusual."

The researchers hypothesize that an ancestral ape species split into two isolated populations about 10 million years ago, then got back together after a few thousand millennia. At that time the two groups, though somewhat genetically different, would have mated to form a third, hybrid population. That population could have interbred with one or both of its parent populations. Then, at some point after 6.3 million years ago, two distinct lines arose.

... ... ...

Past studies that compared human and chimp DNA could only offer a point estimate of how long ago the two species split by averaging the amount of divergence in their genes. Generally, those studies come up with a figure of about 7 million years ago.

But since the completion of the chimpanzee genome project in September it is possible to look at how specific sections of the genetic code have evolved. The Broad Institute study, which will be published in a future issue of the journal Nature, is one of the first to do that.

... ... ...

The data also show that the human-chimp split probably took millions of years. That's because in some parts of the DNA sequence the genetic difference between humans and chimps is so large that those genes must have been isolated from each other nearly 10 million years ago. But in other places the human and chimp lines are so close that they appear to have still been swapping genetic material at least until 6.3 million years ago.

One of those areas is the X-chromosome, which is intriguing.

"The genes that are a barrier to speciation tend to be on the X-chromosome," said David Reich, the main author of the study.

[end quotes]

Does anyone have a subscription to Nature to let us know when the report is published?

John

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:27 AM

After changes upon changes, we are more or less the same.

(Paul Simon, The Boxer)

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM

What in God's name???

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:37 PM

LH - If you're referring to daylia's link, it's called "Photoshop."

John

Subject: RE: BS: What if there were human-chimp hybrids?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 02:15 PM

Understanding genetics, and particularly hybridizing, may be more important than is obvious.

An recent article in American Scientist magazine (May June 2002)¹, "Hybridization and Extinction," by Donald A. Levin from the University of Texas at Austin, points out that hybridization between species is actually relatively frequent, and can either aid or hinder the preservation of endangered species. Online articles are not available without a subscription, hence a longer than usual comment:

The European mallard (Anas platyrhynchus) was introduced into New Zealand in the mid 1800s and has mated freely with the native grey duck (A. superciliosa) to the extent that now more than half of the "nominally native" grey ducks are in fact hybrids. Extrapolation of this trend predicts the effective extinction of the New Zealand grey duck as a separate species in the not too distant future.

The european wildcat (Felis silvestris) may in fact no longer exist as a separate species due to cross-breeding with "imported" feral and domestic cats (Felis catus). Considered extinct due to loss of habitat in most of Europe, except in Scotland, where they are protected, it's unlikely that any pure examples of the previously distinct species still exist due to hybridization.

The Ethiopian wolf is considered "the most endangered Canid," and now consists of fewer than 500 animals. Loss of habitat has been the main cause of their dwindling population. Extreme measures have been invoked to protect them and their habitat; but recent studies indicated that up to 17% (and increasing) of the animals in the protected packs have been cross bred with wild dogs, which will likely, if present trends continue, result in the extinction of the species in the near future, with their descendants indistinguishable from other wild dogs.

The Florida panther (Felis concolor coryi) was pushed nearly to extinction by loss of habitat, with the result that inbreeding of the few remaining had led to unsuccessful reproduction due to inbreeding. Cited as "the worst sperm in any animal" males were producing in excess of 95% "deformed/defective" sperm. Cryptochordism had risen from negligible occurance to nearly 80% of males. The lack of genetic variation had also made all existing specimens vulnerable to parasite loads that produced debilitation and death from disease. In this case, the introduction of a few Texas cougars (Felis concolor stanleyana) has provided, through hybridization, sufficient genetic variability to offer some hope that "nearly pure" Florida panthers may recover a viable population. Not quite as good as saving the pure subspecies, but better perhaps than saving nothing at all of them.

The red wolf, endangered in the southeastern US, was found to be cross-breeding with coyotes, and the number of "pure" red wolves was declining rapidly. A few specimens were captured and bred in captivity to keep a pure line, but - - - - recent studies have revealed that the red wolf actually was/is a hybrid between coyotes and a now ²extinct grey wolf. … … … so some question whether it really did any good to save them as a separate hybrid subspecie(?).

Examples, and puzzles, are much more common in plants and marine life; but they're not as cute and cuddly as the ones cited. Introduction, deliberate or inadvertent, of "foreign species" is a the leading cause of species extinctions, in plants or in animals, but has received relatively little attention until quite recently. Invading species have been noted for being obnoxious, but the hazard to competing native species due to hybridization with the invading species has been given only marginal notice.

The bottom line is that Maw Nature is quite a trickster, and when you fool aroun' with her, she's liable to whop ya with an unexpected result or two.

¹ Okay, so I'm a little behind on my reading.

² The genetic line of the extinct grey wolf appears to be quite strong in current wolves, and the coyote genetic line is little changed since the time when the cross appears to have occurred, so no "genetic information" was preserved that wasn't present in the two parent/descendant subspecies.(?)

John