BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 03:12 PM

Another offensive tautology is the English misuse of the Greek "hoi polloi". In Greek, "hoi", here, is the definite article. Most users of the expression say "the hoi polloi", and the definite article is accordingly repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 07:04 PM

oh, CRAP!...*slinks away sullenly, mumbling*














*subtle memo to self....EDIT!*

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Sibelius
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 06:04 PM

I'm sure that's true Bill, especially where incorrect placing of apostrophes is concerned!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 05:53 PM

*grin*...at least you KNEW the 'appropriate' word. Some will never get if it is 'waived' in their faces.

It IS a complex, demanding, difficult language to use well. That should not excuse surrendering and giving in to the lowest common denominator. From what I saw the last 10 years as my son went through school, the educational system has abdicated it's responsibilites.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Sibelius
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:28 PM

Yes I know, I know, I said "circulated" and I should have said "sent"...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Sibelius
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:24 PM

Another good Churchill one is the complaint he wrote in the margin of a report (I stand to be corrected on the historical details) on plans for the naval bombardment preceding D-Day: "Why must he write 'intensive' here? The correct word is 'intense'!"

SharonA, I wish I had a pound for every time I've heard BBC radio presenters say "the things is, is that..." or "the real issue is, is..."

Returning to the start of the thread, the entire management of the UK public sector would be unable to work (phew - almost said "operate"!) if they did not have "appropriate" and similar language-bashing and grammar-cutting devices among the tools of their grotesque trade. "In the event that the ongoing situation is unable to be resolved within appropriate timescales it is essential that an appropriate report comprising of [ouch, that really hurts] a detailed overview must be forwarded expeditiously in order that appropriate resources can be diarised to affect an appropriate solution".

A senior personnel manager of my acquaintance once circulated a memo intended to placate staff who had been badly treated in a restructuring exercise. To indicate that some limited compromise may be possible, she wrote that "...there may be some judicious waving of the rules". It probably helps to be English to pick up the unintended play on words compounding the spelling error, but I laughed for a week over that one.

Incidentally (which should probably be 'co-incidentally') the words to "Rule Britannia" assure us that "Britain never, never, never shall be..."(I forget the rest).

Never, never? Or never ever?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:25 PM

It happens to all of us. I remember once confusing etymology with entomology, until somebody set me straight.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 11:33 AM

Jim: I did indeed mean "egregious". Eeeeeeek, I've been spelling it incorrectly for years!!! Thanks for setting me straight.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 10:10 AM

Aggregious?
Didn't you mean egregious?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: s&r
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 10:02 AM

That's Amore

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:40 AM

'Way back at the top of this thread, Richard Bridges said, "...I nominate the use of 'alternative' for 'choice' when there are more than two possible choices. There can only be two alternatives, otherwise they cannot be alternate to each other." Liz the Squeak responded, "Surely there would only be one item and one alternative?"

I agree with LTS. One phrase that drives me nuts is "the other alternative". Arrgh -- there is no "other" alternative -- there is only "the alternative"!!!

One of the most aggregious grammatical errors is the pointless repetition of the word "is", as in: "The problem is, is that it doesn't work."

I had an aunt who used to hate the phrase "pizza pie", since "pizza" means "pie." She used to ask the offender, "What's that? You want a pie pie? Would you like a pie pie??"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:35 AM

Here are some previous threads on the subject of English grammar, the English language, etc.

Worst New Words in the 'English' Lang.
'Grammical' faux pas. Language Larfs.
BS: Mangling the English Language
BS: Mangling the English Language, Vol. II
BS: 'Queen no longer speaks Queen's English'
a little something for pedants and... (profanity)
Grammar in Songs
BS: Stop doing this right now!
BS: Transatlantic Idioms
BS: Reasons why English is so hard to learn
BS: Reasons why English is so hard - Part 2
For pedants only
BS: Improper letter S endings! Arghhh!
BS: STOP writing 'Who's'! Enough!!!
Not Just for pedants
BS: Junk English-(book review & commentary)
BS: Grammar: Use of the semi colon
BS: American English Bl**p*rs
BS: Meaningless phrases
BS: English Grammar question
BS: resolving common errors in English (USA
BS: Commonly misspelled/mispronounced words
NPR - degradation of language & music
BS: English To English Dictionary
BS: Affect and effect.
BS Preaching to the choir ahead of what?
BS: Do They Speak English There?
BS: Shakespeare plays in Elizabethan English
BS: Grammar Police: eats shoots and leaves

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:57 PM

Geeziz folks. Do you realize how many award winning writers are guilty of many of your pet peeves? Keericed-on-a-fuckin'-crutch! Opt for a bran muffin and some Darvon.

LMAO   

Oh well........Have fun anyway.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Slag
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:15 PM

Elispses? I'm speechless!!!!!!!!!!! It's like---------You know?!Sometimes what isn't said speaks volumes. And sometimes not.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:35 PM

Peace,
I'm from Maine so I'm not qualified to answer that question. We take R's out of words and put them at the end of others... So I could get in the cah and go out for a soda'r. Or watch Law'r and Order. And my downeast family calls me Beccar.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:32 PM

Never-present ellipses? Please explain.

I'd be more likely to complain about the over-present ellipses....................and question marks???????????? and exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: gnomad
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 03:31 PM

The version I heard had the book being about down under [Australia], so
"...read to about down under up for?"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Slag
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:36 PM

Ahh, the never-present ellipses. Pre-positioning is what prepositions do and its hard to determine a pre-position when at the end of a sentence, they are!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:19 PM

A sentence can only end with one word and a ?, ! or.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM

'Daddy, what did you bring that book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?"

I have heard that sentence before, and the person who quoted it claimed that it was a sentence that ended with 6 prepositions. Not so.

A preposition requires an object. If I say "Bring the book up the stairs" then "up" is a preposition, "up the stairs" is a prepositional phrase, and "stairs" is the object of the preposition. But if I say only "Bring the book up" then "up" is an adverb indicating direction.

The prohibition against prepositions at the end of a sentence is really a prohibition against splitting a prepositional phrase. I figure "for what" is a prepositional phrase that has been split in the original sentence.

You could recast the sentence: "Daddy, for what did you bring up the book out of which I did not want to be read to?" I can't fix the final "to" without changing passive voice to active: "…out of which I did not want you to read to me." But that changes the meaning somewhat. (She doesn't want anyone to read to her out of that book!)

When I learned diagramming sentences in school, I don't think we ever covered passive voice.

By the way, is diagramming sentences still taught in schools?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:14 AM

This is a bit off topic, but not much.

Does anyone have any idea where the locution "he went acrosT the street" or "he was acrosT the lake" originated, or why? I know it's fairly standard in certain areas--had a good friend from Poughkeepsie who said that--but I never did ask him about it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 02:08 AM

Not the Scots.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Slag
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:21 AM

And virually all people lie about laying with animals.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Kaleea
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:15 PM

It's like, you know, soooooooooooooooooooooo ironical.


Animals lay while People lie.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:47 PM

Regarding turning nouns into verbs: This is a very common way English has evolved over the years. There are many words now commonly accepted as verbs that were once used only as nouns.

Consider this sentence from a short story by a British writer, from 1883:

Mr. Jacobson "interviewed" Sam, as the Americans say, and the interview was not a loving one.

Now, why does the author put quotation marks around "interviewed" (but not around "interview") and add the comment "as the Americans say"? Since she doesn't explain what "interview" means, I infer that "interview" was a well known noun in her day, but it sounded strange (to her) to use it as a verb. Furthermore, she thinks it is an American usage. (Typical! Brits tend to assume that every nonstandard usage originated in America.) Yet, by using it herself, she implies that she approves this innovation. The story, by the way, is not about Americans.

Doesn't everybody use "interview" as a verb nowadays? Would anyone even question it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:37 AM

Yes, the redundant "of" is maddening.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:06 AM

And what about:

Get off of the bus.

What's the point of the of in that sentence. Totally redundant.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:29 AM

ooooo! That was horrybaubly turrible!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:40 PM

IMO, a terrible mind is more terrible than a mind, However, a terribly terrible mind is even more terrible than just terrible. And the terribliest of all is a terribliest terribly terrible mind. It don't get much terriblier than that.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Slag
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:36 PM

@= commercial at sign

How about " A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

If you're gonna waste something it ought to be something terrible and what is more terrible than a mind?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Slag
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:17 PM

I would be laying if I didn't say I was full of hope, hopefully.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bizibod
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM

To access something -
AAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!
I know , I know it's all to do with computers, but surely that doesn't mean that we no longer need to speak PROPERLY !
Bone bloody idle....chunter ,chunter, gnash,fume.......

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:48 AM

Dave the Gnome; was a split infinitive even possible in Latin ?

I believe it was not - Which is why it has been frowned upon since.

Or perhaps the abundance of split infinitives the fault of Yoda is?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:41 AM

And then there are those correctly used words and perfectly clear consructions that have ambiguity thrust upon them. Somebody remind me, please, who it was that asked: What is a woman's "now" and where is her "yet"? - (as in 'I wonder who's kissing her now' and 'she was shot by her lover and the bullet is in her yet').

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: HuwG
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 06:13 AM

I believe "buffeTs" were leather coverings fitted to the clappers of church bells, to ring a muffled peal (e.g. for funerals).

...

If a child climbs over a wall into a neighbour's garden without expression to retrieve a ball, then technically he or she is breaking the law; but it is unlikely that the Tactical Armed Response Unit would pounce on the offence.

By custom, technically may have come to mean something like, "violating, or conforming, to the strict letter of something when it doesn't really matter".

...

Dave the Gnome; was a split infinitive even possible in Latin ?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:14 AM

Tootle - Thats very interesting. I had never heard buffet pronounced that way before. Makes me wonder if she learned her English in the British Colony of Hong Kong. I'm glad I didn't try to correct her.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:00 PM

-- sigh --

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:54 PM

But....

There ain't no "correct!"

There is standard, and nonstandard (but heard) and "WTF??? Never heard THAT!"

Language, (of which usage is a small part) does its own thing, and it has its own rules - none of which have been devised by people. We only observe the way langugage works, we don't dictate it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM

But....

There ain't no "correct!"

There is standard, and nonstandard (but heard) and "WTF??? Never heard THAT!"

Language, (of which usage is a small part) does its own thing, and it has its own rules - none of which have been devised by people. We only observe the way langugage works, we don't dictate it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:40 PM

Dianavan

I heard someone say buffet (making the t sound) instead of buffet (without the t sound) and I cringed but I too, have used words that I learned from books but not in conversation.

After your response, I looked up "buffet" in a dictionary. One of the definitions was "A sideboard, esp. of the 16th or 17th century". It gave both pronunciations (with or without t) as alternatives, so your friend was actually correct - which did rather surprise me.

It just goes to show...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM

Here is One Correct Way to Use "Inappropriate"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:50 PM

Hopefully, the announcer will realize that technically he was being inappropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

How about the word technically? What does it mean?

I was just listening to public radio. They were discussing ethics, and I heard the panel members TWICE tell a caller, "Technically, you're breaking the law."

I don't see what's technical about it. She was knowingly employing an illegal alien. That's against the law. The law is perfectly plain. What she was doing was perfectly plain. It doesn't require a technical explanation. So in what sense was her breaking the law "technical"?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:39 AM

What about the changing meaning of words?
The word "gay" has done a complete about face. Once meaning "happy", "gay blades" meant "swashibuckling pirate types" like Errol Flynn or Burt Lancaster.
Later it came to be a politically correct term for homosexuals. In modern playground use it means "lame" as in,"That shirt is so gay."

The word "reality" has come to mean putting people in artificial situations and manipulating their actions.

Even the symbol "@" which used to mean "at $X a piece" has now become "at". Since it takes 2 fingers to type "@" or "at", why change it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:09 PM

Maybe so, Tootler, but this woman was using buffet with a 't' to describe her purchase of dining room furniture.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM

"Not at all" sounds like something a victorian grandmother would say. It isn't used on the westcoast of N. America.

"Not at all" is quite a common response to "Thank you" in Britain, though what I think of as the American usage; "You're welcome" is creeping in.

I heard someone say buffet (making the t sound) instead of buffet (without the t sound) and I cringed but I too, have used words that I learned from books but not in conversation.

Buffet with the t pronounced is a dialect term for a stool (of the sit on type) in parts of Yorkshire. It is still in regular use in the part of Yorkshire my wife comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:20 PM

First, define folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:15 PM

Okay - parse this, you hopeless pedants: "Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

well! I'm glad 'polite' usage is still being taught somewhere...*smile*. There is SO much vernacular and slang (changing daily sometimes) that kids seem to treat 'standard' as hopelessly outdated by definition.

There were reasons for the basic development of the language, and while it is not expected to be static, gratuitous warping at high speed just to 'be different' is downright silly!

I doubt that 'hopefully' will ever be brought back into line, as the concept involved is a bit muddy...but I sure wish people would at least TRY to be aware of what they are saying and avoid the more extreme egregious eccentricities. (*grin*)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Kara
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

Hopefully you won't find this post inappropriate, but language has to move with the and we are experiencing a sea change, in the worst possbile sceanereo every one will talk total nonsense...