BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:17 PM

Sorry but split infinitives were completely wrong in Latin. Nowt up with 'em in Salford English. In fact there is nowt wrong with split words and I would not be sur-f&*(ing-prised if split sylables came in sooner or later..;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Keef
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:00 PM

"Continue on" !!!!!
Grrrr, gnashing of teeth.
First noticed this horror about ten years ago, sadly it has now become accepted usage.
Very inappropriate and hopefully it will become "unacceptable"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:16 PM

Let me ask this: who else has noticed the 'almost' total decline of the phrase "you're welcome"?

I listen to radio and TV interviews, and when the moderator thanks a guest for his participation, he seems to get only a parroted "thankew" back. It always seems awkward to me to hear, "Thank you, John." "Thank you"

Occasionally, I will hear "thank you for inviting me", but I can only remember 2-3 times in ages hearing "you're welcome". Is it becoming archaic in our time? Do young folks even know it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

"The way I heard the Churchill story"

I don't doubt you are right, Buck. My memory ain't what it used to be and never was.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:52 PM

The correct response to "Thank you" is "Not at all".

DtG, in the land where there is no knowledge, nothing is known to be wrong. Ignorance may be bliss, but it is not a source of rectitude, however it may demonstrate innocence (note different usage, differntly punctuated, of "however").

The Churchill story was a Parliamentary exchange and is not correctly rendered.

Comprised, however, may properly have the use of which complaint is made.

The numeration I used was correct.

The defenders of "inappropriate" as a non-judgemental expression fail to recognise that a man (or woman) accused ought to know exactly what the accusation comprises, and accordingly to be entitled and able to defend him (or her) self. Of course if the Blair goverment continues to run down legal aid (with which I do not deal) most will in practice be unable to defend their proper liberties.

And, yes, I will also castigate or catechise those who say "myself" because they do not know whether to say "me" or "I".

And, yes, I will defend this use of a conjunction.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM

"The Churchill story was a Parliamentary exchange and is not correctly rendered."

I KNOW that. Sheesh . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: melodeonboy
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:11 PM

Sorry to be so derivative, but I did enjoy the leader of the boy band in one of the Harry Enfield series who came out with "Er.. we write what we like, right?..and we like what we write, like, right?". I remember being in Blockbusters some time ago and hearing a lad*/oik* (delete as appropriate) presenting a Blockbusters card to the cashier and saying "It's like my mum's card", at which point I was seriously tempted to ask him whose card it actually was.

Let us also not forget the wonderful column in Private Eye called Solutions. My latest experience of the misuse of the word "solutions" was in Sittingbourne Post Office where the envelopes on sale are now described as "mailing solutions"!

Oh, before I forget, what about the silly slogan "Maidstone - great to visit, great to shop" as used by Maidstone Council. I'm sure I can visit Maidstone, having already done so umpteen times, but I'm not sure if I can shop Maidstone! Wouldn't the preposition "in" after the word "shop" make more sense, even if it sounds a little cumbersome?

And let's not mention "logistics" or I'll really get on my soap box!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:05 PM

Peace - so many Churchill stories, so little agreement, I have no idea what he really said, I just love the rhythm of "arrant pedantry ... put." and couldn't resist sharing it. My second favorite Churchill story, after, "Yes, but in the morning I'll be sober."

Richard - there are many acceptable (and no "correct") responses to "Thank you." "Not at all" is certainly one of them, as are "You're welcome" and "My pleasure" and "Think nothing of it." Soon, "No problem" will also be "standard." (But it will never be "Received.")

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:39 PM

Did you ever hear the exchange between Churchill and a member of the conSTABulary?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:37 PM

Richard--

On misuse of "hopefully":


1) I agree with you.

2) We've lost. When it starts being printed as acceptable in a dictionary of even slight repute--I think Miriam-Webster makes the cut--the battle is over. We've been outflanked (and/or cut down by "friendly fire".) You would think a dictonary would have standards. But in fact, as noted by other posters, it often reflects usage.   The objectionable definition of "hopefully" is now part of the language.

I think if we can just hang on at some other outposts--such as the use of "affect" vs "effect", we'll be doing well. "Lay' vs "lie" is another under heavy bombardment--but we should be able to hold out there for a few more generations. Of course the problem is we'll never get any reinforcements--and we're facing an onslaught of bad usage from places like the Net.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM

"dictionary"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:39 PM

i no

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:49 PM

English is a very complicated language. The spelling of the language makes little sense to people who do not have it as a first language, and then, sometimes it makes little sense to people who do.

Through=oo sound
Bough=ow sound
Though=o sound
Tough=uff sound
Thought=aw sound

I think there are about a dozen ways to make the 'ee' sound, and we still can't agree on how to pronounce the letter Z.

Usage problems are many and varied. As you gents have pointed out, many of the battles are lost. Four hundred years ago telling a lady her hair was 'awful' was a nice compliment because it meant 'so beautiful it fills one with awe'. Today . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: harpmolly
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:54 PM

Ok, I simply cannot resist .

5th comic strip down from the top (May 12, 2006).

Tee hee.

Molly

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:57 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:11 PM

Don't forget "guesstimate." Pick Guess or Estimate, not both.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:26 PM

That's another.

A thing that's make me puke for years is this: "We thought you'd enjoy a new challenge." That is corporate shorthand for "We think you are the only diskhead here stupid enough to take this on." Sheesh . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:21 AM

And, I meant to type dickhead. Dang!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 12:32 AM

I like: "nothing personal"

when you hear it, it means "nothing, but..." (personal)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: s&r
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM

Dictionaries usually have in their introduction some sort of disclaimer to the effect that a dictionary is descriptive not prescriptive. Similarly with guides to grammar.

In various businesses that I have been employed, house styles are used. These are rules within the company to give consistency to publications and communications. Outside such situations there are no rules (in English): there are conventions within social groups which tend to act as markers for mutual recognition.

But we all have pet hates. I don't mind ending a sentence with any word that makes sense, and I don't care about somebody's idea of what a split infinitive is or should be.

WHY do people pronounce dissect to rhyme with bisect, and cervical with a long 'i'. And when did the French pronunciation for 'envelope' and the 'qu' sound become acceptable?

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:14 AM

UMBILICAL

umBILLical

umbilLIKEal

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:15 AM

I, personaly, think...

Aaaarrrgggg! How else can you think apart from personaly? My favourite piece of gobledegook was 'parallel reciprocal mobility'. I never realy figured it out:-)

Anyway, Richard, you have a lot to answer for. Being a lawyer that is;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:21 AM

By the way DtG, the correct grammatical term for inserting one word into another is tmesis (as in abso-blooming-lutely)

Personally I am driven mad by the use of Was Like for Said

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:06 AM

Hey Wandering Minstrel,
"was like" has gone out of fashion. Now it's: I'm all,"That's so hot!" then she's all,"No way, Nicole."

Peace said,"And of course: 'A preposition is a word one should never end a sentence with.'"

Lately I've noticed people saying,"We're going shopping. Do you want to come with."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 11:56 AM

"..The correct response to "Thank you" is "Not at all".

ummmm...I may have heard that twice in my life. No doubt both UK and class specific. "Correct" is such an interesting idea. INcorrect is easier, but still fuzzy.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:16 PM

I'm glad you said that, Bill. I was beginning to worry about my manners. I usually say, "you're welcome" and teach my students to say the same.

"Not at all" sounds like something a victorian grandmother would say. It isn't used on the westcoast of N. America. Quite often a reply to thank-you is thank YOU which is O.K. in some circumstances.

I heard someone say buffet (making the t sound) instead of buffet (without the t sound) and I cringed but I too, have used words that I learned from books but not in conversation.

In fact, a favorite game my brother and I used to play was if one of us pronounced a word incorrectly or used it incorrectly, the other would 'innocently' ask, "What did you say?" When it was repeated, the other kid would laugh like hell. This was usually met with some kind of feeble defense and a very red face.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Kara
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

Hopefully you won't find this post inappropriate, but language has to move with the and we are experiencing a sea change, in the worst possbile sceanereo every one will talk total nonsense...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

well! I'm glad 'polite' usage is still being taught somewhere...*smile*. There is SO much vernacular and slang (changing daily sometimes) that kids seem to treat 'standard' as hopelessly outdated by definition.

There were reasons for the basic development of the language, and while it is not expected to be static, gratuitous warping at high speed just to 'be different' is downright silly!

I doubt that 'hopefully' will ever be brought back into line, as the concept involved is a bit muddy...but I sure wish people would at least TRY to be aware of what they are saying and avoid the more extreme egregious eccentricities. (*grin*)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:15 PM

Okay - parse this, you hopeless pedants: "Is You Is or Is You Ain't My Baby?"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 04:20 PM

First, define folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Tootler
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:04 PM

"Not at all" sounds like something a victorian grandmother would say. It isn't used on the westcoast of N. America.

"Not at all" is quite a common response to "Thank you" in Britain, though what I think of as the American usage; "You're welcome" is creeping in.

I heard someone say buffet (making the t sound) instead of buffet (without the t sound) and I cringed but I too, have used words that I learned from books but not in conversation.

Buffet with the t pronounced is a dialect term for a stool (of the sit on type) in parts of Yorkshire. It is still in regular use in the part of Yorkshire my wife comes from.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 06:09 PM

Maybe so, Tootler, but this woman was using buffet with a 't' to describe her purchase of dining room furniture.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 11:39 AM

What about the changing meaning of words?
The word "gay" has done a complete about face. Once meaning "happy", "gay blades" meant "swashibuckling pirate types" like Errol Flynn or Burt Lancaster.
Later it came to be a politically correct term for homosexuals. In modern playground use it means "lame" as in,"That shirt is so gay."

The word "reality" has come to mean putting people in artificial situations and manipulating their actions.

Even the symbol "@" which used to mean "at $X a piece" has now become "at". Since it takes 2 fingers to type "@" or "at", why change it?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:38 PM

How about the word technically? What does it mean?

I was just listening to public radio. They were discussing ethics, and I heard the panel members TWICE tell a caller, "Technically, you're breaking the law."

I don't see what's technical about it. She was knowingly employing an illegal alien. That's against the law. The law is perfectly plain. What she was doing was perfectly plain. It doesn't require a technical explanation. So in what sense was her breaking the law "technical"?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 02:50 PM

Hopefully, the announcer will realize that technically he was being inappropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 05:13 PM

Here is One Correct Way to Use "Inappropriate"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:40 PM

Dianavan

I heard someone say buffet (making the t sound) instead of buffet (without the t sound) and I cringed but I too, have used words that I learned from books but not in conversation.

After your response, I looked up "buffet" in a dictionary. One of the definitions was "A sideboard, esp. of the 16th or 17th century". It gave both pronunciations (with or without t) as alternatives, so your friend was actually correct - which did rather surprise me.

It just goes to show...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:50 PM

But....

There ain't no "correct!"

There is standard, and nonstandard (but heard) and "WTF??? Never heard THAT!"

Language, (of which usage is a small part) does its own thing, and it has its own rules - none of which have been devised by people. We only observe the way langugage works, we don't dictate it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 06:54 PM

But....

There ain't no "correct!"

There is standard, and nonstandard (but heard) and "WTF??? Never heard THAT!"

Language, (of which usage is a small part) does its own thing, and it has its own rules - none of which have been devised by people. We only observe the way langugage works, we don't dictate it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 07:00 PM

-- sigh --

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:14 AM

Tootle - Thats very interesting. I had never heard buffet pronounced that way before. Makes me wonder if she learned her English in the British Colony of Hong Kong. I'm glad I didn't try to correct her.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: HuwG
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 06:13 AM

I believe "buffeTs" were leather coverings fitted to the clappers of church bells, to ring a muffled peal (e.g. for funerals).

...

If a child climbs over a wall into a neighbour's garden without expression to retrieve a ball, then technically he or she is breaking the law; but it is unlikely that the Tactical Armed Response Unit would pounce on the offence.

By custom, technically may have come to mean something like, "violating, or conforming, to the strict letter of something when it doesn't really matter".

...

Dave the Gnome; was a split infinitive even possible in Latin ?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:41 AM

And then there are those correctly used words and perfectly clear consructions that have ambiguity thrust upon them. Somebody remind me, please, who it was that asked: What is a woman's "now" and where is her "yet"? - (as in 'I wonder who's kissing her now' and 'she was shot by her lover and the bullet is in her yet').

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 07:48 AM

Dave the Gnome; was a split infinitive even possible in Latin ?

I believe it was not - Which is why it has been frowned upon since.

Or perhaps the abundance of split infinitives the fault of Yoda is?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bizibod
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:43 PM

To access something -
AAAAAAAAAGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!
I know , I know it's all to do with computers, but surely that doesn't mean that we no longer need to speak PROPERLY !
Bone bloody idle....chunter ,chunter, gnash,fume.......

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Slag
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:17 PM

I would be laying if I didn't say I was full of hope, hopefully.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Slag
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:36 PM

@= commercial at sign

How about " A mind is a terrible thing to waste."

If you're gonna waste something it ought to be something terrible and what is more terrible than a mind?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 08:40 PM

IMO, a terrible mind is more terrible than a mind, However, a terribly terrible mind is even more terrible than just terrible. And the terribliest of all is a terribliest terribly terrible mind. It don't get much terriblier than that.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:29 AM

ooooo! That was horrybaubly turrible!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:06 AM

And what about:

Get off of the bus.

What's the point of the of in that sentence. Totally redundant.