BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'

Subject: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:25 AM

May we discuss the expressions and misuses of words we most hate?

This thought is partly inspired by the recent Tone Def Leppard misuse of the verb "to lay" in stead of the verb "to lie". The main trigger, however, is the thread about a church school banning "Imagine" (the Lennon song) as "inappropriate".

How I hate the present-day misuses of that word. Use of the word usually betokens some act that will be decided by the politically correct to have extreme adverse consequences for the one accused - yet it fails to specify the act or the reason for a prohibition of the act in any way that is sufficient to permit the alleged wrongdoer either to know why what he said or did was wrong or to enable him to defend himself. Truly it is a dreadful example of management-speak.

Next on my list of hates is "hopefully", as today misused. The word is an adverb. The correct use is as in the sentence "to travel hopefully is better than to arrive". It does not mean "I hope" or "it is to be hoped".

Third might well be the use of "lay" for "lie".

Fourth I nominate the use of "alternative" for "choice" when there are more than two possible choices. There can only be two alternatives, otherwise they cannot be alternate to each other.

Fifth, may I figuratively excoriate split infinitives, at least in English? I understand that they are acceptable in American.

Over to other pedants....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:33 AM

Surely there would only be one item and one alternative?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:36 AM

Which school? Where?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:38 AM

Well Richard while I cringe at people who say they are going to repeat something again, and those who qualify the word unique by adding totally or very to it. There's not much one can do about it.
When I hear someone say actually 5 times in the same sentence, or reply 'absolutely' to a question [absolutely what?], it's like deja vu all over again.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:41 AM

"I seen it."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:42 AM

Shitfire Bub.......Y'all pretty pissed off aintcha? What with ya' exorciatin' and feeling betokened and all, it must be really rougher than a dog shittin' green to get yourself all done with the readin around hereabouts. And as far as the lay and lie I actually can't figure your point much. See, if a guy was to lie about a lay to his wife to stay outta' trouble like Bill Clinton did when he got his hat blown then I don't see any problem.

Whatcha' oughta' do is to eat up a bran muffin and drop a big load then see if you're still exorciatin' and betokening. Good luck and my hopeful best to you hopefully in your tape job that is hopefully gettin' them infinitives what's split put back together again.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 05:50 AM

I betoken on this here spliff . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:01 AM

It's been suggested that "hopefully" (in the sense "I hope") entered English via the USA, from German- speakers who have their useful word "hoffentlich". It's been around a long time, and I of to think it could of been naturalised by now, and anyway we haven't got another word for it, only roundabout phrases.

'Actually' is just an 'er, um', back in the 80s the politicos used 'basically' in the same way. I prefer the South African 'eh?'.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:07 AM

Excellent article about the split infinitive.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Ernest
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:29 AM

Richard,
may we add the word "racist" to your list? I have often seen it used to describe something that is discriminating against someone without any connection to the colour of someone`s skin.

Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 06:43 AM

The concept of 'race' goes beyond skin colour. The Ashkenazy Jews, Slavs and other European Untermenschen shared skin colour with their persecutors. Though if we could get a taboo established on ethnic or cultural discrimination as well, that would be no bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Ernest
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:34 AM

Paul,
I agree. I was just critizising the word rasism when some other kind of discrimination is meant.
Best
Ernest

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 07:52 AM

As Peace points out with his link, the split infinitive is a will-o-the-wisp of no real linguistic power. Ninety percent of all unsplit infinitives achieve nothing other than calling attention to the speaker's diction; "Hey, look at me I recognized an infinitive and self-consciously constructed a phrase that sounds funny so you'll notice that I didn't split it."

"Hopefully" in the sense you cite is in fact a legitimate usage. My data to attest to this is that lots of speakers of modern English use it, and usage is king. Languages are organic, living things that follow their own rules, one of which is, well, usage is king, and when a word, phrase, or construction is used to mean something often enough, then that's what becomes "standard." There is no such thing as "correct" in language, only "standard." That said, I do agree about qualifying absolutes. But sooner or later "somewhat unique" will be "standard" for "unusual." Nuthin we can do about it except rail against the tide.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:20 AM

At one point we used to "press" people to do something; then we "pressured" them. Now we "pressurise"them!
Really!??

Add to your "unique" list - comprehensive.Not to be used with a comparative or superlative, surely? Either it's comprehensive, or it isn't.

And what about "alternate" and "alternative"?

Seem to mean the same thing in US English, but not in British English.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Becca72
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:24 AM

One of my biggest irritants is " I could care less". When then, sir, you must care some in order to care less...

I also hate "would of" "could of" and "should of"...HAVE HAVE HAVE!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:32 AM

I find I really need a bran muffin when I hear the term "healthy food", instead of "healthful food".

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Emmells
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:35 AM

Oooh. Here we go...

My most hated at the moment is turning a noun into a verb, usually heard on TV cookery shows (a la Jamie 'I'm a Pukka Geezer' Oliver'):

'then fridge it for an hour'.

NO! NO NO NO. You can refrigerate something for an hour, or you can put it IN the fridge for an hour. You can even chill it, if you want a one-syllabled option. But you CANNOT 'fridge' something. Grr.

I've also heard 'Oven it', which sent my blood pressure through the roof within seconds.

Think I should get out more...
:-)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:54 AM

All the fuel transport trucks around here, now have the word "Flammable" instead of "Inflammable" emblazoned on their tanks. It seems some were confused and thought "inflammable" meant that it was fire proof............good idea....

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Emmells
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:56 AM

Well that's a tricky one Metchosin, as according to my dictionary (the OED), the definition of flammable = inflammable!

Ummm. Confused now...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 08:59 AM

sory Richard, Merriam-Webster disagrees with you:

Main Entry: hope·ful·ly
Pronunciation: 'hOp-f&-lE
Function: adverb
1 : in a hopeful manner
2 : it is hoped : I hope : we hope
usage In the 1960s the second sense of hopefully, which dates to the early 18th century and had been in fairly widespread use since at least the 1930s, underwent a surge in popularity. A surge of criticism followed in reaction, but the criticism took no account of the grammar of adverbs. Hopefully in its second sense is a member of a class of adverbs known as disjuncts. Disjuncts serve as a means by which the author or speaker can comment directly to the reader or hearer usually on the content of the sentence to which they are attached. Many other adverbs (as interestingly, frankly, clearly, luckily, unfortunately) are similarly used; most are so ordinary as to excite no comment or interest whatsoever. The second sense of hopefully is entirely standard.   

I find the juxtaposition of "hopefully" and "inappropriate" intrigueing - as when I attend a pub sing the songs will hopefully be inappropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:04 AM

This all sounds like the exact same thing to me.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: bfdk
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:58 AM

Michael Swan agrees with Webster on the use of "hopefully":

Hopefully has two meanings. One is similar to "full of hope", "hoping".
She sat there waiting hopefully for the phone to ring.

The other meaning (a much newer one) is similar to "it is to be hoped that" - it shows the speaker's attitude to what he is saying.
Hopefully, inflation has started to drop.

Some people consider the second use "incorrect".

End of quote.

Best wishes,

Bente

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:17 AM

The second use is incorrect. Thank you for the support.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:23 AM

"To boldly go where no man has gone before!"
I scream in pain every time I hear it! AAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:24 AM

Sorry Emmells, I drifted slightly off topic and didn't mean to imply that "flammable" was an incorrect word. I was just noting that at one time "inflammable" was the word most often used and also, readily understood. As that does not seem to be the case anymore, it would seem that it is probably wiser to use the other word.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: red max
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:35 AM

"One of my biggest irritants is 'I could care less'. When then, sir, you must care some in order to care less"

I'm glad someone mentioned this!

Another phrase that springs to mind is "the rest, as they say, is history". Who are "they"? Hardly anyone says "the rest is history", they alway shove "...as they say..." into the middle. Actually, instead of moaning about it, I'm just going to punch the next person who says it. Harumph!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: gnomad
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:35 AM

"Enormity": does not speak of magnitude, but of wickedness.

"Literally": taking the primary meaning of a word, not a metaphoric or exagerated one.

"One of the only..." No: can be the only, or one of a number, but not some half-assed halfway measure.

You've got me going now, better stop before something bursts.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:44 AM

"One of my biggest irritants is 'I could care less'. When then, sir, you must care some in order to care less"

usually said with an implied "As if"; maiking it's meaning "As if I could care less"; which I find far preferable to the "As if.." used as a declarative sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 10:53 AM

I think I started hearing the word "inappropriate" being used—ahem!—inappropriately back in the 1980's when I was doing volunteer work for a social service agency—the type of place that is populated by psychologists, social workers, and their clients—as well as amateur "helpers." (I was in the last group.)

The dilemma you have when you work in a place like that, is that people who have done terrible things (drug abuse, child abuse, spouse abuse, etc.) are coming to you for help, so they can (hopefully!) quit doing them. If you react with obvious horror and disgust, especially before you gain the clients' trust, you will drive them away, and you'll never be able to help them.

So you evolve an ethic that says you must suspend or moderate judgment, at least temporarily, at least about anything the client did before he entered your door.

Imagine this dialogue, in a group therapy or "support group" session:

CLIENT #1: …and after that, they put my daughter in foster care.
CLIENT #2: Jeez! That's disgusting. Guys like you ought to be castrated!
FACILITATOR: Now, now. We don't make value judgments here. That remark was inappropriate.

OK, I made up that dialogue. Maybe a real therapist would have said it with more finesse.

The irony is, people make value judgments all the time. You can't help it. To call a remark "inappropriate" is itself a value judgment.

I think "inappropriate" became popular because it's a relatively mild word. It's a lot less likely to cause offense than "shut up!"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:09 AM

It's neither here nor there...well then it ain't!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:28 AM

Whatever...

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:41 AM

There are two many ways too use the word "to" incorrectly.

But "y'all" has become a part of my vocabulary. And if all y'all don't like it - tough.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: clueless don
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:46 AM

It is important to not split infinitives.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:51 AM

Hopefully Richard has now eaten a bran muffin and gottten all exorciated cuz his ass is wrong on hopefully. Now mindja' I didn't say that HE was wrong......just his ass.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: harpmolly
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:02 PM

I actually overheard myself use the word "irregardless" the other day, and was completely horrified. Aaaaahhh! The pod people have invaded my brain! Scrub it out with soap!

(On the other hand, at least in a lot of North American circles, the much more grammatically correct "irrespective" is likely to get you a raised eyebrow and a blank look...or a "Weeelll, aren't *we* fancypants?" expression.)

And then there's "ATM machine." Eurrrgh.

Molly

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:06 PM

I would take acception to the preceeding, but I except that some people do have difficultie's with certain words, so I am authoring this little post to make them feel more better.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:08 PM

Becca 72. I have to agree with you....We all shortened Could have, would have and should have to could've, would've and should've and somehow the young people (and some of the older ones) have made them could of, would of and should of....why can't they talk like what I do?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:15 PM

Jim Dixon -

In schools, the term 'inappropriate' has replaced 'bad' to describe a student's anti-social behaviour. Its not always possible to go into great detail about why the behaviour is unacceptable but at the same time you need to tell the student to 'knock it off' in a way that does not indicate that the student is a 'bad' person.

It took me awhile to get used to it but students seem to know that while it may be appropriate behaviour at home or with peers, it is inappropriate classroom behaviour. Given the time, a teacher can go into more detail and certainly will if the behaviour persists but as an 'off-the-cuff-comment' it seems to do the trick. At least its better than telling a student that the behaviour is 'bad'.

What's the alternative?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: RangerSteve
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM

My candidate for worst phrast ever: At this point in time.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Dazbo
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:06 PM

Richard,

Shouldn't that be Thirdly,; Fourthly,; Fifthly)?

A 'two time' winner gets my goat. It's TWO TIMES or TWICE!!!

IIRC the first English Grammar book to have a go at split infinitives actually didn't prohibit them it just advised caution in their useage. In fact, I understand that many of these prohibitions in English Grammar were originally just guidelines and not hard and fast rules.

Hopefully, Richard, you'll understand that "hopefully" is used correctly in this sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:10 PM

Well, my pet peeve about language is police (and reporters) who continue to refer to criminals as 'suspects' long after they have been caught and even have confessed.

Yes, I know it's usually a legal thing...just in case some clever lawyer wants to clutch at the thread of 'prejudicial publicity', but I STILL roll my eyes at 'suspect' when they are caught on video with the meat cleaver in their hand!

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:16 PM

Hey Bill....."Suspects" seems to have been replaced with "Persons of Interest." I guess criminals are now classed either by their entertainment value or their savings account.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM

PIN & VIN numbers-- the N means "number"!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:14 PM

Ranger Steve - You can blame,"at this point in time" on John Dean during the Watergate Hearings. Prior to that, most people said either,"at this time" or "at this point".

A grammatical error that makes me shudder, since it is used by supposedly well-educated people is,"When you've completed the questionaire give it to John or I."

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:17 PM

Has anyone mentioned the word "nucular" being used instead of "nuclear". George Dubya is guilty of this, but he's not the only one.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM

My phrase pet peeve is writers using comprise, instead of compose. I have often seen a sentence where one thing is "comprised of" whatever it is, it's comprised of. The proper use would be "composed of." As an example: a pie if composed of pieces, but pieces comprise the pie.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 03:54 PM

I have always loved Churchill's remark to a writer in the technical affairs area of his War Ministry. The writer had been using convoluted English in a painful attempt to sound 'more' than he was. The guy had written words like, "When one utilises the chair, one should consider the ergonometrics to do with space availability and . . .". Churchill in terse, consise English said, "You are writing for mechanics. Be clear. This is a situation up with which I will no longer put!"

And of course: "A preposition is a word one should never end a sentence with."

Gotta love it.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Peace
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM

To tack onto Metchosin's post about "Eat healthy food", I do not like commercials that tell people to "Eat healthy." Gawddammit, put the noun there or make it an adverb. Thank you for allowing me to 'get that off my chest'. I am going to the Nipples thread now . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:08 PM

The way I heard the Churchill story, someone had corrected him for ending a sentence with a preposition. To which WC replied that it was "Arrant pedantry, up with which I will not put."

A pal of mine once claimed that his (precocious) daughter once asked him "Daddy, what did you bring that book I didn't want to be read to out of up for?"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Inappropriate' and 'hopefully'
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 04:53 PM

I was JUST reminded about the proclivity of many in the military these days to refer to a group of themselves as a 'contingency' rather than as a 'contingent'. (I think I mentioned this in another thread of this type)

I have heard this 7-8 times and want to reach through the TV screen and shake them until their collective heads rattle.