BS: Amnestygate

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 12:28 PM

The Price of Dissent in Venezuela

...Col. Chávez, who did everything--including granting citizenship to half a million illegal aliens in a crude vote-buying scheme and "migrating" existing voters away from their local election office--to fix the results in his favor. One opposition leader was moved to a voting center in a city seven hours away. Another man, Miguel Romero, had for years voted in his neighborhood school in a Caracas suburb. But this time the Electoral Council computer indicated that he was to vote at the Venezuelan Embassy in Stockholm. Thousands of others, like me, were wiped from the voting rolls. Ironically, in the runup to the vote, the embassy in Stockholm, like Venezuelan diplomatic posts around the world, inexplicably ran out of passports. Many Venezuelan expatriates were thus prevented from returning to their country to vote...

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:13 AM

Hey Mr "Hugo is da' man" Bobert:

I just found out what a brownshirt is:

The Left-Wing Fascist (sic)?

The National Guard or state police force in Venezuela has been accused of intimidation and bullying tactics of opposition, reminiscent of the Mussolini brownshirts in the 1930's. It is also troubling that nationalism and xenophobia are seemingly fostered by the government, combined with a push to have the population loyal to Chávez and not to the country. He has created a cult of personality about himself, creating the illusion to the masses that he is infallible; as a speaker Chávez has a bombastic style, literally working his audience up into a frenzy.

Like Mussolini?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 12:06 AM

RD:

Previously I have answered questions of your and you refuse to answer mine. Instead you run away to another thread like Dianavan and start whining about something else.

Subject: RE: BS: Has Walmart been defeated?
From: Old Guy - PM
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 06:56 PM

1. Yes

2. No, none of the other companies were required to do anything under the Walmart Bill. that's why they called it the Walmart bill.

3. Yes

4. Yes

5. Yes, other companies with less than 10,000 employees and Walmart could have afforded to spend 8% of its payroll in Maryland towards health care for its own employees or put the difference into the Maryland state Medicaid fund but for whatever reasons, they did not do so.

In West Virginia Asplundh, which is the next biggest employer under Walmart, has 13.2% of its employees with children participating in the plan, 146.

McDonalds, which is the next biggest employer under Asplundh, has about 8.5%, 100.

Respite Care, which is the next biggest employer under McDonalds, has only a few less employees with children participating in the plan than than McDonalds, 97 vs 100 for McDonalds.

The USPS, which is the next biggest employer under Respite Care, has only a few less employees with children participating in the plan than Respite Care. 94 vs 97 for Respite Care.

Walmart has 3.9% of it's employees with children participating in the plan, 452 vs 437

Why is Walmart targeted and not the others?

Why is the employee threshold set at 100 in other states?

Now who is the forgetful one?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:56 PM

Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied

By Mary Fitzgerald
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, August 26, 2004; Page A21

A report that found that illegal immigrants in the United States cost the federal government more than $10 billion a year -- a sum it estimated would almost triple if they were given amnesty -- has drawn criticism from immigration advocacy groups.

For its report, the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington-based group that advocates tougher immigration policies, used Census Bureau figures to compare the revenue that illegal immigrants contribute through taxes with the cost of government services they use.

Illegal immigrants create a fiscal deficit because they have low incomes, Steven A. Camarota said. (Robert A. Reede - Robert A. Reeder -- The Washington Post)


Friday's Question:
It was not until the early 20th century that the Senate enacted rules allowing members to end filibusters and unlimited debate. How many votes were required to invoke cloture when the Senate first adopted the rule in 1917?
51
60
64
67


_____Special Report_____
• Census 2000
_____Free E-mail Newsletters_____
• Politics News & Analysis
• Campaign Report
• Federal Insider
• News Alert

"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.

The costs outlined in the report include government services such as Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools.

The study acknowledged that, on average, the costs that illegal-immigrant households bear on the federal government are less than half that of other households, and that many of those costs relate to their U.S.-born children. It also pointed out that tax payments by illegal-immigrant households constitute one-fourth those of other households because of low-income jobs.

"With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services," Camarota said.

The report estimates that granting legal status to illegal immigrants would dramatically increase their cost, causing the net fiscal deficit to rise to nearly $29 billion because, the author argues, unskilled immigrants would have access to more government services while continuing to make modest tax payments.

Camarota concluded in his report that the fiscal impact could be lessened only by stringently enforcing immigration laws, a view that drew criticism from some immigration specialists and advocacy groups that also accused him of not coming up with constructive recommendations.

"Implied within this study's findings is the sense that if these people could suddenly be made to disappear, the federal government would be $10 billion to the plus, and that is almost certainly not true once you look at the numbers," Jeffrey S. Passel, a demographer at the Urban Institute, said in an interview.

"Should you charge up to undocumented aliens the cost of small-business loans that they don't get or the cost of civil litigation, among other things? This report does that," he said.

Frank Sharry, director of the National Immigration Forum, an immigrant advocacy group, took issue with the report's treatment of illegal immigrants' U.S.-born children, who are American citizens.

"The costs of the children of immigrants are accounted for [in the report], but not their contributions to the economy as workers and taxpayers," he said in a written statement, adding that the report's conclusions were not helpful to the debate on immigration reform.

"There is a growing consensus in both political parties that our immigration system needs to be comprehensively reformed," Sharry said. "Our current system of haphazard laws, spotty enforcement, border chaos and unfair restrictions needs to be replaced by a regulatory regime that makes immigration safe, legal and orderly."

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:38 PM

Old-


You were going to tell us how many INS agents it would take to remove the 12 million illegal immigrants now here. And what else you would do to remove them. I'll clue you--they won't come forward voluntarily--and employers will not turn them in---why should they?--they're happy with the jobs they do.

Also if you claimed to be against BIg Government or not.

Seems to have slipped your mind.

Also you seem to be hemming and hawing on the fence-- (no pun intended--perish the thought)-- build a fence between the US and Mexico or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:45 PM

Unlimited access how? according to the imigration laws? I am all for that. And for changing the immigration laws to speed up the process you know, like they did at Ellis Island.

In America I think most of us have some indigenous blood. I do. I think I am about 1/100th Pocahontas.

I don't really matter. Look at what America did to the place. It is in such good shape they all want to come. It it had stayed in the hands of Mexico it would probably be soo poor the Mexicans would be sneaking into Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 07:56 PM

The fences are nothin' more than my tax dollars being used to play to the right winged political base of the Republican Party and I resent the heck out of it... These crooks make Slick Willie look like a Boy Scout when it comes to stickin' their hands in my pocket to prop up their power hold...

Tell ya all what... There was a time when I juast paid my taxes and, even when it hu8rt, I didn't make much effort to avoid (not evade) paying my tyaxes but I'm in in big time avoidence mode with these crooks... I hate paying taxes to such a power hungry and corrupt administration and I'm wearin' my tax accountant out with ways I've come up with to not give these crooks any more than I ***have*** to give them... Just today, I came up with a way to keep $750 bucks a year from going to these thugs...

Hey, if they want a friggin' fence so that angry white NASCAR dads will vote foer them, then fine... Take it out of the RNC budget!!!

Grrrrrrrrrr!!!!

Mad Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:39 PM

Well, Old Guy, there are a number of upper-class Mexicans who are more-or-less "pure-blooded" descendants of the Spanish conquistadores. The majority of Mexicans are descendants of intermarried Spanish and indigenous ancestors. And, especially in some provinces, there are large populations of people who are mostly indigenous. It's the indigenous people who emigrate to the United States to find work.

OK, so maybe Mexico should pay back the $15 million, and then the US should allow unlimited access and forget about building the silly fence.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:58 AM

I got to thinking that Joe might be right. My mind does not slam shut like some others I know.

Then I got to thinking how did Spain get to own the territory? They killed off the Indians, exploited them, enslaved them, stole all of their riches etc. Mexico got the territory after they fought a war of independance with Spain. America got the territory after it fought a war with Mexico and paid Mexico $15 million.

And what happened after it became an American territory? Were the indigenous people sent to Mexico or where ever they came from or were did they become citizens?

How about that Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 06:35 PM

That territory included most of Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and Southern California... Not to mention Polk'as War against the Mexican people...

Hmmmmmmm? Them Mexican made out like bandits, didn't they, Oldster???

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 05:46 PM

That would really stop them from emntering illegaly wouldn't it?

We went through this before and it did not work. Why would it work this time?

Also the US paid Mexico $15 million to for territory.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 02:31 PM

I think we should grant dual US-Mexican citizenship to all Mexican citizens living or working in parts of the US that used to be part of Mexico.
Seems fair, doesn't it?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 11:38 PM

Exactly. Enforce the law. We have millions of criminal illegals in this country, and many are aggressively claiming the country as their own. Some of their leaders are saying they should kill people of another race. End it. Kick 'em out. And there won't be any low-wage jobs to fill afterwards, or not for long, because the wages will go up for those jobs until they suddenly become desirable to citizens. Supply and demand.

This isn't rocket science, it's arithmetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 10:15 PM

Bobert:

Since when is enforcing the law radical?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 12:46 PM

So???

Are you trying to say that we shoud be afraid of Hispanics because of this incident, Old Guy???

Hmmmmm???

If so, then by all means, round every last one up and boot 'um out.... Right???

You know, you and GUEST here seem have some really strange concepts about the way problems are solved...

Very niave', too, I might add...

Come up with a better plan that isn't so friggin' radical in nature...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 10:02 AM

Woman Dragged To Death In Colorado

Jose Luis Rubi-Nava, 36, of Glendale, Colo., was arrested on a charge of first-degree murder and was being held without bail in the Douglas County jail, Sheriff Dave Weaver said.

[The Rocky Mountain News reported September 21 that Denver police stopped Rubi-Nava on April 21 because the license plates on the car he was driving "came up on a national database as associated with a wanted party." Officers arrested Rubi-Nava after noticing that the Mexican identification card he presented appeared to be forged. The News reported that, according to the Denver Sheriff's Department, Rubi-Nava spent the night of April 21 "in jail" and that he "was charged April 22 with providing false identification, driving without a valid license and having no proof of insurance. He was "released on his own recognizance after being charged, and all three charges were dismissed April 27.
Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokesman Carl Rusnok said agents believe Rubi-Nava is an illegal immigrant from Mexico.
Rubi-Nava had worked at a Burger King and was employed at a landscaping company in Arapahoe County.
Rubi-Nava has three sons and a wife in Mexico.
The woman that was dragged to death, Luz Maria Franco Fierro, his girl friend that he lived with, has three daughters and a son in Mexico.]

Rubi-Nava, who was arrested Tuesday night, was the man pictured in a photograph found near the woman's body when she was discovered. Weaver did not say whether a woman who also appeared in the photo had been identified.

An autopsy report released late Tuesday revealed that the victim was alive when the killer or killers placed a rope around her neck and dragged her behind a vehicle. The coroner said she died from blunt force injuries and strangulation.

The woman's mangled, naked body was discovered along Surrey Drive near the Surrey Ridge subdivision, about 20 miles south of Denver, at about 2:39 a.m. Monday, police said.

Police said she was dragged in the normally quiet subdivision for more than a mile. The woman was found dead with an orange tow rope wrapped around her neck.

Police said a winding drag mark, consisting of tire marks and blood, stretched from Interstate 25 exit 191 to the area in the road where the woman's body was found, Denver TV station KMGH reported.

Her face was so disfigured that she could not be identified, police said.

Her body was found in a massive pool of blood in the middle of the street. There was so much blood spilled on the concrete that street sweepers could not remove it all and authorities had to hire a private contractor to take care of it.

Police said at least one witness reported seeing a vehicle driving with its lights off, dragging something the night the woman was killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 09:20 AM

Guest:

You are right. The illegals are keeping wages down for legal citizens that pay taxes.

However there would still be a shortage of labor for low end jobs. If the illegals were made to follow the law, they would pay taxes and make more money that would course through the American economy.

Raising the Minimum wage would also cause more money to course through the American economy and give the illegals a reason to become citizens legally.

The basic question here is do we reward the illegals for breaking the law or do we reward them for following the law?

There are crybabies like RD who focus on anything negative they can find as an excuse to do it the easy way and excuse lawlessness.

This has been done before and it did not work.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Sep 06 - 12:26 AM

Kicking all illegals out of the U.S. would be a boom to the U.S. economy. The illegals are job thieves. Kick them out so their employers would have to hire legal Americans, and those wages would suddenly be coursing through the AMERICAN economy, instead of being mailed home to other countries. Kick out the criminal illegals and make employers hire either natural-born or naturalized Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 10:10 PM

Bobert:

I asked you how, not if.

RD you got all the answers and you never answer any of mine.

Suppose you dazzle us with your brillinace.

Meanwhile I am basking in the limelight.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 02:30 PM

Well, yeah, Old Guy, they do...

The Repubs have made such a big deal over the word "illegal" when it comes to Hispanics... Many of these so-called "illegals" have been here for years, work, pay taxes, have kids who were born here and in school...

Sorry to burst yer bubble but thems is the facts... I know... I hired two of them myself before I retired and both are still here and working, paying taxes, etc...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 01:01 PM

That's right, Old, homage to you-spelled N-E-E-D-L-I-N-G you. And it's so much fun. You always rise to the bait.

I'm just pointing out your wonderful reading skills--the perfect compliment to your logic.


Now, back to the issue:

OK, no fence--of any length?--make it clear. Yes or no?

Assuming that the answer is no, on to my next questions, which you somehow did not find time to answer.

How many INS agents will it take to remove all 12 million of the illegal immigrants now working in the US?

And do you claim to be against Big Government-yes or no?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 10:25 AM

Bobert:

How do illegal aliens pay taxes?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Sep 06 - 09:14 AM

So, let me see if I have this right, Old Guy???

You are suggesting taking 11 million workers, most who are not only paying tax but paying into the Social Security system, off their jobs???

Do you have a clue what that would do to the US economy???

You might want to revist that part of yer program from a less emotional and more pragmatic state of mind....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 11:46 PM

Amnesty involves the forgiving of a crime. That is what I am against. It tells them that the laws in the US do not have to be followed.

They should be deported or made to leave and allowed to enter legally following the proceedurs under the law.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 10:15 PM

Old Guy - Make up your mind. First you complain, "...want to make illegal aliens, citizens of the US."

Then you say, " Let'em in legally."

Make up your mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 08:09 PM

Boeing, not Halliburton, but who cares???

Can we agree that what we are seein' is renagade Repubs tryin' to find an issue to energize their base in an effort to hold power???

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 08:02 PM

That is an acronym for the Washington Post. Like DHS and USA.

Yeah we agree for a change. The SS payments are another reason for them to leave and return legally.

I don't see how they can pay anything into the SS syatem if they are employed illegally and off the books. Maybe they are using fake or someone elses SS number.

Yep, that damned fence is a boon to Halliburton and it will still cost a fortune to operate and mantain after it is built. It looks unamerican to me. Let'em in legally. That's what made america great.

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:44 PM

What's the WAPO, Old Guy???

But, hate to say it, but I agree with you about the fence and I agree with you about the hiring practices... What I don't understand is how illegal aliens get social security numbers but they do... Yeah, seems all it takes is some affidavit and a copy of a lease to prove they are here and somehow they get social security numbers???

Now that brings up another question... Hey, many of these folks are payin' into the Social Security system... Where does that money go if they are booted out??? Hmmmmmm??? No accusations here... Just a question///

My other question is in regards to folks who employ them and don't report their income... Hmmmmm???.. Like what kind of businessamn wants to have to use cash to pay someone under the table... At some point in time the "cash" variable becomes a tipping point where it's become cheaper to pay someone more than to use cash which can only be acquired legally from net income after taxes... In other words, if I'm an employer and hire a guy for $15 and hour off the street and don't report it, it really is costin' me closer to $20 an hour or earned income to cover that $15... LIke I say, there is a tipping point where folks will not be willing to use net income to hire folks off the street and under the table...

At any rate, yeah, if we wanted to stop immigarnts it would be simple and wouldn't involve a fence... Just crack down on the employers...

So, looks as if Old Guy and I agree on at least something...

Law of averages done caught up with us...

Danged!!!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:07 PM

Bobert:

I harrangued you for using those tired cliches like brownshirt. I don't know the meaning of that or Boss Hogg. Why not just state what ever you mean?

You accuse me of following the agenda of something I have never heard of. I accuse you of reading the WAPO and that's where you get all of your opinions and talking points. The WAPO is your bible.

Who owns it? What are their political connections and what are those connections leanings?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 06:03 PM

Nice to hear from such a good friend.

I think instead of building a fence, we should spend the money on enforcing the laws against hiring illegals. Thake away their reason for coming here illegally and give them an incentive for coming here legally.

Raise the minimum wage. Hire whatever INS people are necessary, I don't know how many it will take. Increase the quotas. Speed up the process.

A fence is like a iron curtain. Not a symbol of freedom, justice and the American way. They will find away around, over, under or through it.

Remember the coyotes get a good chunk of change for their services. As long as the laws are not being enforced there will be an incentive for them to smuggle people in.

I see you are already whining about the title of this thread so no doubt you will be whining about my answer, accusing me of not answering your questions and refusing to answer mine.

However that doesn't bother me a bit. It is sort of an homage to me and I like it.

Noe here is a question for you just in case you decide to answer one for a change:

Do you think the fence will cost less than what it will cost to inforce the existing laws plus whatever will be spent in admitting the 12 to 20 million illegals according to the present laws?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 05:45 PM

Ahhhh, Old Guy, reread yer danged 12:13 popst and tell me that you weren't very strongly implying how I felt on the issue... The entire post is a rant against me for poasitions that you assdume I have taken... Reread it and get back on yer alzhiemer's meds...

Geeze...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:27 AM

And let me compliment you on the (singularly imaginative?) title of this thread. It fits your reputation for deep thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:16 AM

Also, given the fact that there are about 12 million illegal immigrants now working in the US, how many additional INS personnel do you think will need to be hired to remove them? And do you claim to be against Big Government?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 06 - 07:12 AM

OK Old-

What's your view of building a fence between the US and Mexico--I believe the length is projected to be 700 miles. Is this a good idea? Yes or no? And why?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 10:15 PM

Mr Objective rather than subjective thinking Bobert:

Where did I state that you had stated your opinion?

Where Did I say the minimum wage was needed only because of Illegal immigrants? I have stated in several threads it should be at least $10

The only thing I am saying about you is you use rhetoric and tired Liberal clichés like brownshirt instead of facts. You think it makes you seem much cooler to talk in symbolic phrases like "roll him under tha buss" than to speak plainly. It is facetious as opposed to being honest.

What the hell does brownshirt mean anyway? Is it something from your glory days back in the 40s?

And I still never heard of the Hertiage Foundation so you can repeat that all you like if it makes you feel better about your conflicted positions on things like crooks that hire Illegals are OK. But other crooks are the problem.

You never explained who or what Boss Hogg is. Another example of your self serving rhetoric. Was he the fat guy on the Dukes of Hazard that had so much influence in his town? I think you were bragging about your own sphere of influence in your town.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 09:42 PM

Eisenhower had the right idea. Operation Wetback. Round em up, kick em out.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 04:19 PM

Actually, Old Guy, I haven't stated my opinion on the immigrant issue other than to point out that alot of folks who are so Hell bent on makin' it an issue right here at election time are the same people who have been benefactors of cheap labor... That's all I've said yet you want to put me into some kinda "liberal" trick bag and ***assume*** that I think this way or that way on the issue...

The minimum wage issue stands on it's own and should not bea factor in the immigration debate... Bottom line, the minimum wage of today has lost 42% or it's purchasuing power since 1969 and that is just downright inexcusable no matter how you look at it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Sep 06 - 12:13 AM

Bobert:

Ya gotta have a brain to be brain washed.

And I don't have a single brown shirt regardless of your tired liberal clinches and rhetoric.

Libs always have to assign everybody to one of their stereotypes, there is no such thing as a free thinker.

That is why they can't think freely themselves.

Oops, I just stereotyped somebody.

Well I agree with Bush on somethings and not on others just like my wife, brothers etc. It is based on what I believe and not an ideology.

I even agreed with Clinton on some things. I might even agree with you on some things but it looks like your mind is closed to any evidence that might make you change your mind. Is that called closed mindedness?

Now you take these wetb.. err, illegal aliens. They are here illegally. You rant and rave when you think Bush broke the law but you want to bend the law for people that came here illegally. I don't blame them for coming. I am for them coming legally. I think they do the dirty jobs that Americans are to "good" to do and pay taxes, SS etc if they were paid a decent wage legally and more or less pay their way. Right now they are a drain on the state and local communities. A hidden tax that subsidizes the lower prices.

But the present system is keeping them in a sort of slave state where they get treated like shit, under paid and they have no rights, pay no taxes and can't complain because they are illegal. That is because the Republicans want them here for cheap labor. It is also due to Democrats that want them here so they will vote Democratic someday. I think you will agree that it is crystal clear.

Now the big problem with amnesty is that it gives them the idea that laws are not to be followed in the US. That they are a minority can get more benefits than Americans. They will not mix into the great American melting pot that made this country great. They will stay apart and be divided, not united with mainstream America. There will be gangs against other ethnic groups Ala West side story.

It will be difficult in the short run to make these people tow the line and re inter legally. Quotas will need to be increased, processes speeded up and more INS personnel hired. I don't call that Gestapo tactics. I call that following the law.

To give them amnesty will be easy in the short run but what are the long term consequences?

We have already gone through the amnesty thing and it did not cure the problem. This amnesty will not cure the problem either. And we are going to spend 8 billion an a fence? Why not spend some bucks policing the businesses that hire them?

I say crack down on businesses that hire illegal aliens. Make them follow the law. You are always bitching about the "Crooks" and they are crooks. If one lettuce grower hires illegals, the others have to do it to compete. If none of them can hire illegals they will all be in the same boat. That is fair. All businesses held to the same law.

Also if the minimum wage was set at $10 it would be an incentive for them to enter legally to get that $10. It's probably 2 or 3 times what they are making now. It will be trickle up economics at work when the local economies improve.

Now tell me what mold I was cast in? Tell me what organization I am loyal to? Tell me what doctrine I follow?

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 10:13 PM

No, Old Guy, I didn't since you seem to agree with Bush 99% of the time... That is what "true believers" do... Heck, I don't agree with anyone even 50% of the time... That is what free thinkers do...

And for the record, about 99% of your opionions and positions are the exact opinions and positions of the Heritage Foundation... Hmmmmm???

You may think that you have sifted thru the vast amount of information to come to your conclusions but the more you talk the more apparent it is that you are so hung up in partisan politics that you are not capable of independent thought processes...

Yeah, yer right about one thing... Time for a reality check...

But, hey, I still likes ya' even if you are a brainwashed brownshirt so come on over here an' get a big hug...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:51 PM

Bobert:

Your assertion is false. I never heard of them.

Why are you always on the side of the lawbreakers?

Are you hiring illegal aliens?

You must think I am a busy retired old guy working for the Bush admnistration, Walmart and the hertiage whatever.

Did you ever stop to think that when somebody does not agree with you it is because that is the way they feel?

Nope, It is always a plot by some evil organization.

It sounds like paranoia to me.

Time for a reality check.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Sep 06 - 09:22 PM

You never heard of the Heritage Foundation, Old Guy???

I seriously doubt that....

It only happens to be the #1 rightie think tank and everything that comes from you has been put out by it... What, are you so brainwashed that you no longer know who is doing it???

Maybe a Google might jar yer danged "old guy" memory???

BTW, it was founded by former Nazi'z and Nazi sympathizers after WW II who were seriously courted by your Republican Party....

Yeah, check 'um out... All your arguments have come right (pun intended) outta the Heritage Foundation....

Don't think so??? Google 'um up a little harder....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:56 PM

Paranoid, lawbreaker supporting Bobert:

I still never heard of them any heritage foundation.

Dianavan:

Yes. One person is definately out numbered by 12 to 20 million people.

Now what has that got to do with amnesty for lawbreakers?

I don't see your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:11 PM

Yeah, don't go out an' provide the evidence that Bush and his cronies stole the 2000 election and expect to get away clean.... This ain't 'bout Katrina as much as it is about revenge... The Bush folks will have their revenge... You can take that to the bank...

And fir you Bush-heads... Don't even begin to ar4gue that Bush won 2000 'cause it's like givin' a transfusion to a dead man... He lost it big time!!! If it weren't for spending 5 times tghe money on lawyers and havin' a Repub Supreme Court Bush would be cuttin' brush 365 days a year in Crawford... This ain't even close to bein' arguable...

Oh, but the usual goose-steppin' knee-jerkers will come to Bush's defense like they always do...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 08:44 PM

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=72&ItemID=10957

A story about 73k Americans living in a concentration camp right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:51 PM

"Thank God,"

Please don't ... been listening to much 'God' from 3 blithering fools at the UN in the last 2 days.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:47 PM

Excuse me, Oldster, make that the Heritage "Foundation"... Now back to the question of who started it???

As fir the "12-20 million" thing... Taht's 'tween you and dianvan...

B

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 02:00 PM

Thank God, he can't use any more votes, real or imaginary. As for AmnestyGate, the notion of backfilling the definitions of crimes in order to protect Bush from having broken the laws in his heroic pursuits of warmongering is far more scandalous then the idea of amnestying people whose only crime was trying to get into a better life for themselves and families.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:16 AM

"Your vote against 12-20 million" means you're out-numbered by the very people you wish to keep out.

Bush doesn't care if you vote for him. If he can give citizenship to that many illegal immigrants, who do you think they will vote for? Its a democracy isn't it? Bush is looking for votes and you don't count one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:35 PM

Hey, I don't fear the coming multi-linguistic chaos. Fear grows out of the unknown, and I know exactly what's been foisted on America and the other great western nations. The global banking elite is always consolidating its power, and now, to go to the next level of consolidation, the western nations will be sacrificed. The bankers will survive and just take over the management of the new Latino/Asian slave class. So be it. The Latino/Asians will be much easier to control because they have no history of freedom. America's going to have to be torched, though. Too much freedom for too long. Buy guns.

Subject: RE: BS: Amnestygate
From: Old Guy
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:36 PM

Bobert: I am not quoting anybody. That is my opinion. Bush is wrong on amnesty. The law should be enforced.

I never heard of the Heritage Counsel.

I still don't know what "Your vote against 12-20 million" means.