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BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?

GUEST,Old Guy 03 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM
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Subject: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM

I have been trying to figure out how the Hebrews and Muslims have become so at each others throats.

The religions seem close and they must have been one religion at one time. How did they get so far apart?

I am not making any claims here but i just don't have enough the background on the two religions. After I sort that Out the next question will be who was the first to occupy the land that both lay claim to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

Well...with the religions so close...they both come from the same regions...why wouldn''t they be close?

As for the Arabs...they worshipped pagan gods prior to mohammed becoming a prophet...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:16 PM

Mohammed recognised Abraham as a prophet !(And Jesus , as a matter of fact)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:17 PM

It's like this: The chicken and the egg had sex. When they'd done, the chicken said, "Well, I guess we've answered THAT question."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:28 PM

I don't think the Arabs and the Jews were so mutually antagonistic prior to WW I and the dissolution of the Palestinian protectorate.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:36 PM

Abraham had 2 sons, Issac & Ishmael. The Jewish view as espoused in the Torah is that God promised Abraham that the descendants of Issac would inherit the land. The Arabs claim that it was the descendants of Ishmael to whom the land was promised.

                                                 SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:37 PM

And thus was born the great American novel, "Moby Dick."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:38 PM

The Palestine question goes back about 3500 years. Abraham left the Tigris-Euphrates valley and settled in what is now known as the lower Middle East, north of Egypt and South of Persia. The then residents were known as Philistines or, as now pronounced, Palestinians. They've been fighting over the land ever since.

As far as when they started fighting in the Modern Era, there were various pogroms prior to the first world war, as often as the Ottomans permitted it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:46 PM

Basically European anti-semitism, culminating in the Holocaust, forced many European Jews to look for another place to live in, away from anti-semitic Europeans; and this in practice involved displacing the people who already lived there. One result was that European anti-semitism got exported to places where for thousands of years Jews and Arabs had got along pretty well, especially compared to what happened in Europe.

Antagonism between Jews and Arabs has the same basic origin as antagonism between settlers in the American West and the native Americans. The fact that Jews and Arabs are very closely related peoples (in many cases essentially identical), and that their religious beiefs and practices are also very closely related, is one of the things that makes this historic tragedy so poignant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 08:54 PM

There's quite a bit in Wikpedia about Abraham and his sons Isaac and Ishmael.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:01 PM

Geeze, all we're missing is a little good ol' End Times ambience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:05 PM

This is either a really personal question, or a pretty obvious troll. I'm gonna take a cue from the South Park episode where the little handicapped kid went and joined the "Crips" and sit this one out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:27 PM

The interesting thing, Old Guy, is that both Christians and Muslims revere the same ancient holy books (Old and New Testament) and the same prophets and holy figures. Jesus is greatly revered as a true prophet of God by Muslims and so are the other figures in the Christian pantheon....but then along comes Mohammed and adds new teachings and new books...so Islam is a later offshoot of the Christian and Jewish traditions. Where Islam mainly differs is that it adds on the teachings of Mohammed and makes him the foremost prophet, although Jesus and the others are still quite important figures in the religion. The Jews differ in that they don't recognize Jesus, the New Testament, OR Mohammed, but only the stuff that came before Jesus...so it appears to me that there could be a greater religious gulf between Jews and Christians than between Muslims and Christians, technically speaking.

This, however, does not prevent all 3 of them from fighting wars with each other over religion. ;-)

Ridiculous, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: C. Ham
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

I have been trying to figure out how the Hebrews and Muslims have become so at each others throats.

The religions seem close and they must have been one religion at one time. How did they get so far apart?


First off, the question in your thread name is very different than the question you raised in your initial post.

Of the three great monotheistic religions, Judaism came first, about 4000 years ago. Then came Christianity, a little less than 2000 years ago. Then Islam, about 1300 years ago.

Biblical legend has it that the patriarch Abraham, had two sons. One by Sarah, his wife, and one by Hagar, Sarah's handmaiden. Sarah's son, Isaac, was the second Jewish patriarch. Legend has it that the Arabs were descended from Hagar's son, Ishmael.

Concerning the area now known as Israel and the Palestinian territories, the first Jews arrived there about 4000 years ago. The first Arabs arrived there from the Arabian Peninsula, as conquerors btw, about 600-700 years after Christ.

Someone above inferred that the modern day Palestinians were the same people as the ancient Philistines. That is not true. The Palestinians are Arabs; as are the modern day Egyptians, who are not the same people as the ancient Egyptians of the Pharaohs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM

Okay. So...where are the descendants of the ancient Philistines now, and where are the descendants of the ancient Egyptians? What became of them all? (not arguing with you, just asking)

Wouldn't it be funny if the Chinese eventually move in and settle the whole area? (well, not all that funny.....)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:06 PM

"where are the descendants of the ancient Philistines now"

In Philadelphia fer krissake. Where else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:10 PM

"Islam is a later offshoot of the Christian and Jewish traditions"

I was thinking that Islam came before Jesus.

It is certainly ridiculous. The jews were definately there during the Jesus era so how can the Arabs claim it?

Isreal's problem is that there are so many more Arabs than Jews. And the Arabs have the power of oil money.

I read The Source by Michener that explains a lot the background but I have forgotten almost all of it. I remember it was a hell of a book though, better that his later books.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:22 PM

No, Islam came about 500 or 600 years after Jesus.

Claim on land is very simple. It works this way: If you were born there and have lived there all your life, you just naturally feel that it is your land. If new people arrive from somewhere else entirely and say it's their land now, you don't like it! ;-)

If you'll recall, this is exactly what caused trouble between the whites and the Native American tribes, and it is essentially what has been causing trouble between the Jews and Arabs in the Middle East since 1948.

Of course in the meantime you have Jews who HAVE been born in Israel since 1948, so they just naturally do feel that it's their land. And so, the disagreement becomes chronic, and it goes on for generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:22 PM

Lots depends on who controls the media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:41 PM

They Speak Arabic from Morocco to Iraq. Just as they speak from English from Vancouver to Miami. Native Americans speak English, Italian Americans speak English, Even C. Ham, who apparently lives in Toronto, speaks English. Does that mean they or their families all come from England? Of course not.

There is every reason to believe that the many of the current residents of Palestine are descended from the original inhabitants and their anscestors learned Arabic as the were converted to Islam. It is even likely that some are descended from Jews who converted.

The Palestinians are reportedly more closely related to the Jews than any other people. So if the Jews can claim that land by birthright, so can they. And then, of course, there is the inconvenience of the Palestinians having been there when the descendants of the Jews of Europe and America decided to return.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:43 PM

The media does whtever it takes to make money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM

You can describe the basic history of the region anthropologically, or you can describe it from a religious/cultural perspective. In the 1st instance, you find that very similar people moved about there for 4000-5000 years, and that almost every area had some of the various clans, tribes and ethnic groups there in various patterns when the total population was low.

In the 2nd instance, usually written from a viewpoint with a vested interest, you find this notion of "God promised us WE were the chosen ones!" Now you have similar but differently slanted versions relying on only vaguely historical figures quoting 'scripture' about a supposed supernatural being 'deeding' real estate to 'favored' groups based on ambiguous virtues & behavior! Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

No one seems to have any idea why, if this 'promising' actually happened, it was not made clearer and why a Supreme Being capable of such favoritism (no matter in which direction) could not also pop in when things got nasty and RE-explain it clearly. Obviously, the 'interested parties' will continue to point to 'history' that supports THEIR vision, and in the direction of lands with the most personal significance for them....Oh, there's considerable overlap in the claims? My...maybe they should share! Nope...somebody stepped on SOMEbody's toes a few thousand years ago, (or so it says in various ambiguous texts!) so the descendants will fight about it forever, seeing as how God does not seem inclined to do his smiteing personally anymore, but contracts it out to Mullahs and Rabbis and their loyal followers.

.................need I go on? EVERYONE has a semi-valid claim, and everyone denies the other guy's. Sure makes money for munitions suppliers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:52 PM

Got that right, Old Guy! ;-) That's what they do.

See, I always thought that claiming land on the basis of your race, religion, past history, or culture was ridiculous. It's being BORN on a piece of land and growing up there which makes you feel in your gut that it's your home and always will be, wherever else you travel. I know that, because I was born in Canada, more specifically Ontario, Canada, and it will forever be my natural home...makes no damn difference where my ancestors came from. You don't have to have "Indian" blood to call North America your home. Not any more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 10:55 PM

If anyone thinks that God made his people the "chosen ones" and set aside some land only for them, he has only a primary school level understanding of God, and his "God" is the monster of his or someone else's imagination. (in my opinion)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:10 PM

The Jews and the Moslem Arabs both have legitimate claims to the land called Palestine, and the land is legitimately sacred to them and to Christians. Judaism is older than Christianity, which is older than Islam - but Arabs have been Arabs far longer than the history of Islam. Apparently, it was Philistines who were displaced by the ancient Israelites - but were those Philistines ancestors of the current Arab Palestinians?

And just because somebody lived somewhere three millenia ago, does that mean that their descendants have an absolute right to that same land?

We're all human - how much a part does race and ethnicity play in the legitimacy of a people's claim upon a land? If I live here now and I paid the price of the property, doesn't that have precedence over somebody who claims the property because his ancestors lived there a thousand years ago?

It's a very ticklish question, one that's not answered easily.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 03 Aug 06 - 11:18 PM

Actually you never really own land. The government has the emminant domain on your land, at least in the US.

I read something somwhere that the Pallestinians were trying to prove they were the descendants of the Phillestines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:01 AM

No, you surely don't really own land. You just use it temporarily. And when you die, the land owns you. ;-) (so to speak)

It's not a question of who "owns" the land, it's a question of who belongs there. I'm saying that people who are born on an area of land belong there. They belong there more than someone who just arrived on a boat. Does anyone dispute that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:03 AM

So who owns your land? Who belongs there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:10 AM

This land is your land, this land is my land
From California, to the New York Island
From the redwood forest, to the gulf stream waters
This land was made for you and me

As I was walkin' - I saw a sign there
And that sign said - no tress passin'
But on the other side .... it didn't say nothin!
Now that side was made for you and me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:13 AM

My land? You mean mine personally? My family owns it until such time as the government decides to create a state of emergency over something...and then if we're in the way of something they want to do, too F-in BAD! (grin)

Since the odds are fairly high against that happening in my neck of the woods in the near future, I figure our chances of continuing to "own" our land are pretty good. But I'm telling you that the land will have the last laugh, because we are all going to die, but the land will still be there. Unto eternity.

People are fools to think they can really own land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:19 AM

But who belongs there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:23 AM

I have no idea who belongs on a particular little local piece of land. What I meant about "belonging" on land was this: people who are born in a region belong there by virtue of the fact that they were born there, and they KNOW it...just like an animal knows it. They belong there more than someone who was born in a far distant region does. Where do you live, Old Guy? What region or state do you live in? And where were you born?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:32 AM

You see, I'm aware that I was born in Canada, and I feel at home in Canada. I wouldn't like it if 800,000 Chinese or Americans arrived in Ontario, took over a quarter of the province, set themselves up their own government, and declared a new country there under their management and raised an army to shoot anyone who disagreed with them about it. Nor would I like it if the Ojibwas and the Six Nations decided to do the same thing...on the basis of ancestral claim to the land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:45 AM

I was born pretty close to where I live. I am sure my land belonged to the Indians but they probably ran someone else off of it and someone else did it before them.

However getting back to the disputed land in Isreal.

Now that I know that the Hebrews preceeded Islam, I personally think the Jews should draw back to the borders originally defined by the UN and demand that the UN force other nations from screwing with them and threaten to use nukes if the UN can't do the job.

I think the UN shold tell Isreal to draw back to the original broders or they will not be protected by the UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:30 AM

Well, that's what I think too...aside from the using nukes part... (the Israelis already have tacitly threatened the use of nukes, and the Arabs are well aware of it).

We are basically in agreement on this, Old Guy. How about that! ;-)

I too feel that Israel should withdraw to the original 1948 borders, an international force should be put in place to secure those borders to protect Israel from attack and to protect others from attack by Israel...and the Palestinians should be provided with a reasonable sized homeland of their own...probably the West Bank of Jordan would be the most practical area for that, in addition to the Gaza strip. The Gaza strip in itself is too small, in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: John O'L
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:46 AM

A crucial part of the story is the kidnapping of most of the Judeans buy the Babylonians around 600 BC.

Not only did the Babylonians allow them to remain together, retaining their national and spiritual identity, they seemed to encourage it. When the Syrians had conquered the northern tribes of Israel about a hundred years earlier they had distributed the Israelites throughout their empire in order to eliminate them as a people altogether. Apparently this was common practice at the time. I have often wondered why the Babylonians bucked the system as they did.

Then, when the Persians conquered the Babylonians and freed the Judeans, they insisted that the Judeans return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. What was that all about?

Did the Persians see themselves as the descendants of Ishmael? I doubt it. Did the Babylonians? I doubt that too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:00 AM

Is that correct that arabs arrived as conquerers in palestine 600 years ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:17 AM

Old Guy, why do I get the feeling that you are another Mudcat regular (and quite a well known one) using this occasional name?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Villan
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:20 AM

I don't really care.

Why can't religious people practise what they preach - PEACE


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:26 AM

God is not a real estate agent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:27 AM

Traditionally Jews seeking refuge from oppression in Europe found a safe home in muslim lands.Many Jews who were expelled from Spain by catholic extremists found refuge in Morocco and Cairo.

Jews,Muslims and christians also coexisted quite peacefully for most of the time in Palestine right up to the beginning of the modern ers.

What really damaged and then destroyed relationships between the Jewish and Muslim communities was Zionism....the belief that he Jewish people were entitled to an exclusive state in Palestine.

The very first Zionist settlement in Palestine was funded by the De Rothschild millionaire family in about 1885 and things went downhill from there.The first settlement was disguised as an agricultural setup.

The early Zionists set out to buy land from absentee landlords,would not buy arab produce,would not sell arab produce,would not allow arabs into their homes or businesses or trade unions and grabbed arab land.The 1917 Balfour Declaration [Balfour himselgf wasa well known anti semite ] showed the Palestinians that their future was going to be bleak.
hugo


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:28 AM

Not at all. IIRC Herod was of Arab (Idumaean or Edomite) descent. They were excluded (ethnically- cleansed) from the newly- independent Israel by the Maccabees after they revolted from the Seleucid successor of Alexander the Great. They would have had full access to Palestine during the Roman period, and of course thereafter when the Jews were dispersed following the revolts of the first and second centuries (some Jews still remained in Palestine).

In 634AD Palestine was seized from the (Christian) Byzantines by the invading Moslem army. Many of the inhabitants- Christians, Pagans and Jews alike- converted to Islam thereafter, and became, along with immigrants from other parts of the Moslem world, the ancestors of the modern Palestinians, and Arabic became the language in the place of Aramaic, Greek, Latin etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:40 AM

Interesting thread...I knew very little of all this history.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:15 AM

Have to repost the links to the 1923 treaty that created the Mandate Palestine area- ALL of Israel, Jordan, and the West bank. Originally designated by the League of Nations as a "Jewish Homeland" ( Same treaty gave present boundaries of Turkey, Syria, Iraq...) The British decided to carve off 70% as an "Arab Homeland"- and removed all of Transjordan ( east of the Jordan River) from the Mandate. THEN the British decided to divide the remainder of the "Jewish Homeland" into Arab and Jewish Palestine, based on population ( like Pakistan/India division). Post WWII, the UN gave part of the "Jewish Palestine" to the Jews, and the rest to the Arabs- and the Arabs refused to accept the division, stating they wanted it all.

When the dust settled from the 1948 war, some of the Arabs ( a number stayed, and are Israeli citizens) had fled or been driven out ( about 640,000) of Israel, and almost all of the Jews remaining in Arab nations were expelled ( about 820,000) from those nations. Israel took in all the Jewish refugees, while the Arab nations kept the Palastinians in camps without citizenship. ANY "right of return " that addresses the Palestiinian claims to part of the land which does not address the greater Israeli claims to the property taken from the Jews driven out of Arab nations is less than useful.

While Arab nations controlled the West bank and Gaza, there was no attempt to create a state of Palestine- Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan. The Palestinians were NOT given citizenship in those countries. Jerusalum (specifically the eastern part, containing the Wailing Wall, the last remaining portion of the Temple) was NOT acceccable to ANY Jew. Only after the 1967 war were ALL religions allowed access to their holy sites.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Suffet
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:22 AM

Greetings:

Just a few quick corrections to Guest Hugo.

The first modern Zionist settlement in Palestine was Rishon Le-Zion, founded in 1882 on land owned by Tzvi Leventine -- a Jew, not an Arab or Turk -- and puchased from him by a committee of Jewish immigrants who had arrived in Jaffa that year. Edmond James de Rothschild, the French philanthropist, entered the picture four years later, when the settlement was floundering, and he gave it much needed financial and organizational support. This included helping the settlers develop citrus growing and wine making industries.

Rishon Le-Zion was not "disguised" as an agricultural setup; it was an agricultural setup. Thanks to Rothschild's early support, and thanks even more to the courage and determination of its early settlers, Rishon Le-Zion is now Israel's fourth largest city.

The name Rishon Le-Zion literally means "First to Zion," and comes from Isaiah 41:27. To wit: The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.

--- Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:20 AM

Is that correct that arabs arrived as conquerers in palestine 600 years ago?

What I said was, "the first Arabs arrived there from the Arabian Peninsula, as conquerors btw, about 600-700 years after Christ."

That would make it about 13-1400 years ago.

As to where are the ancient Philistines, the ancient Egyptians, as well as the ancient Babylonians, the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel, etc., they are simply lost to history.

The area of ancient Babylon is now called Iraq. Both Iraq and modern day Egypt are Arab countries.

Of course, these few words in an Internet forum are very simplistic. The whole story is very complicated. Many scholars have devoted lifetimes to it. Undoubtably, many more will in the years, centuries, to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:45 AM

I was aware that the fertile plain between the Tigris and Euphrates river was the cradle of civilization. Baghdad was ground Zero. Now it is very uncivilized. The Muslims there can't even get along with themselves.

So I assume the Zionists are the hebrew extremists and the hezbollah/hamas/al aqsa/PLO etc are the Islamic extremeists who are causing the trouble.

The way I see it is those Ayatolahs that scowl and shake their finger and foment violence are the root cause of Islamic extremism but who is the cause of Zionist extremism?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: C. Ham
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:54 AM

I assume the Zionists are the hebrew extremists

You assume wrong. A 'Zionist' is simply anyone who believes that Israel is, and should be, the Jewish homeland. The vast majority of Israelis only want to be able to live in peace. Most Israelis long for peaceful co-existence with the Arab countries and most support the establishment of a (terrorist-free) Palestinian state.

There are, of course, Zioinist extremists, particularly within the settler movement. Equating all Zionists with such terrorist organizations as Hezbollah and Hamas is repugnant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:28 AM

OK I am just figuring this stuff out.

If it is the Zionist extremists who are causing the trouble on the Jewish side, how can they be dealt with?

I believe the Pallestinians have thier own territoy for a homeland but they are not satisfied. They want it all.

Does Israel govern that territory until the Pallestinians can run it themselves?

I think those Settlements in Pallestinian territory are wrong. I think there can never be peace as long as they exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:39 AM

No, they really DON'T "have their own territory" in the usual sense. They have what they have been 'allowed', and are, naturally, not pleased.

You are trying to oversimplify it all.


by the way...only ONE 'L' in Palestinian


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Grab
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:19 AM

To add another factor into the whole thing, there's the question of water. You're probably aware that it's a bit dry out that way. So if you want to have modern drinking water and toilet facilities for all your people, plus farming, plus modern industry (which also uses a fair bit of the stuff), then you need to take a load out of the rivers and ground-water reserves.

Ben-Gurion's original plan for Israel was explicitly for Israel to annex the entire water supplies for the area. That fell by the wayside because it would have left the Palestinians and Lebanese utterly screwed, but there's still an awful lot of grief over controlling water usage in the area, because if it runs out then people die.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:09 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine


http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html


http://www.archiveeditions.co.uk/Leafcopy/557-0.htm


http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/cc87d3bf6e0759f3052565e800573851!OpenDocument


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 01:13 PM

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/britman.htm

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_overview.php

http://www.unitedjerusalem.com/Graphics/Maps/PartitionforTransJordan.asp


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:33 PM

yes, I too, can do a search on "British Mandate for Palestine"....therefore?

(That last link is rather...ummmm...one-sided, wouldn'y you say?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: 282RA
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:52 PM

Arab is an ethnic identifier and Jew is a follower of a certain religion. And really "Arab" spans racial boundaries as many blacks in North Africa consider themselves Arabs and non-black Arabs also consider them Arabs. Both Arabs and Jews are generally Semitic so I suppose they were there at the same time. Some of the Semites became Arabs and others Jews. In this sense, I'd say Arabs were first. If you're talking Muslims, then they followed Jews as far I can tell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:01 PM

It appears that almost everything 'historical' before Josiah may have been 'spin',or invented political fiction, intended to support hi s aim to become a great ruler - not surprisingly, the priests 'found' old writings in the Temple to support this position...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM

Yeah, 282RA? What about Jews who aren't religious? What about Jews who are atheists? (like Woody Allen, for example)

We've been over this ground already about 8500 times on this forum...the only thing that makes anyone a Jew is this: at least one of his parents was a Jew, and he or she thinks of himself/herself as being a Jew. That's it. Period. The rest is debatable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: John O'L
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:04 AM

Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?

Apparently there is evidence that Hebrews did actually come westward out of Mesopotamia at around the time it is claimed that Abraham did. They settled everywhere along the way as far as Egypt at least. The Hebrews who settled in Canaan at some time started calling the place Israel, and each tribe had it's own area fenced off. The southern tribe called their patch Judah.

The northern tribes were very prosperous and highly populated. The models for the Biblical David and Solomon probably come from here. Judah was relatively poor and thinly populated. When the Assyrians conquered the northern tribes they didn't bother with the Judeans, they weren't worth the effort.

Foolestroupe raises a good point. The Biblical histories of all three religious disciplines are retrospective and backdated. As if every 500 years someone has to jump up and say "Lo & behold, that's now all bullshit, this is what's what!"

The word Jew comes from the word Judah. I don't know where the Arabs came from, when they came, or what defines them. I've often wondered. I suspect modern Jews and Arabs descend from a common ancestor as recently as 4,000 years ago. If not, they certainly descend from one a little further back, and their argument is one of degree rather than definition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:25 AM

"The northern tribes were very prosperous and highly populated. The models for the Biblical David and Solomon probably come from here. Judah was relatively poor and thinly populated. "

Somebody a while ago was trying to convince me that there lots of places called 'Jerusalem'...

A recent interesting documentary claimed that 13C BCE was too early for the 'Philistines' and 'camels' - and that this places certain events nearer 7C BCE... seems as if the popular stories of ancestry

1) may have come from several separate sources and been combined to form a 'unified theory of origin' stretching from Abraham (who seems to have been travelling in the opposite direction from the archaeologically documented movements of people at that time!) thru David and Solomon (last 2 maybe from northern tribes rather than Judah) - this was supposedly so that Josiah could 'reclaim the lost lands of the great empire' - say - anybody a greater expert on English History than me and able to document off the top of their head the several such similar occurrences of political spin? :-)


2) may have integrated a group of people from Egypt who joined up with others later on (interesting that some of the dietary laws seem to be similar to a certain Egyptian Priestly class...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM

Oh, BTW I just remembered that in the 1930s there were several political leaders who spun that line, the Germans, the Italians, (the Japanese weren't interested in reclaiming a OLD Empire, just carving out a NEW one!) and some acknowledged terrorist guys running around in Palestine called Zionists...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:48 AM

neither - they were all descended from the same mob, but took different religious paths. The further you go back, the closer they all are.

"Jews and Arabs are extremely closely related, a new genetic survey has shown. Wherever in the world they now live, Jewish men carry the same Y chromosome as Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese.

"Jews and Arabs are all really children of Abraham and all have preserved their Middle Eastern genetic roots over 4,000 years," said one of the scientists involved. Harry Ostrer, director of the Human Genetics Programme at New York University School of Medicine. The team analysed regions of the Y chromosome in 1,371 men from 29 populations worldwide. The Y chromosome passes largely unchanged down the male line.

The results, published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, show that the difference between Jewish and Arab populations is extremely small, considerably smaller than that between North and South African populations, for example. The study confirms that both Arabs and Jews owe their genes to a common ancestor population that predated the Jewish religion."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 10:15 AM

That's what I am getting at. Jews and Arabs are the same people. They share the same heritage. They grew apart over the years to the point that they want to kill each other. More so for the Arabs or more specifically the Muslims, because they want to wipe out the Jews. I think the Muslims are wrong but we can't correct them.

I am not a Jew or Muslim anything for that matter. I think the US supports the Jews too much and that causes the Muslim hatred for America.

Support for the Jews, Isreal, should come through the UN so it cannot be blamed on America.

What does America get for supporting Isreal? They are our buddies. Hell, anybody would be buddies with someone that gives them billions of dollars and sends their kids out to die for me. It is not only costing us what we give them but what we spend on Afghanistan and Iraq and the lives lost.

Sure, part of it is for oil but there is oil in other parts of the world besides the middle east.

I say back off, throw it in the lap of the UN and demand that they handle it.

Let oil go to $100 a barrel and it will start flowing from other sources. Gas is going to $6 or $8 like it is in Europe anyway. Just quit whining and bite the bullet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 01:29 PM

Old Guy, the Muslims don't technically want to "wipe out" all Jews...they want to get rid of the political state of Israel....its government, its military, its structures of power. There's a difference between that and wiping out all Jews. All Jews do not live in Israel, number one, and you don't have to kill every single Israeli Jew in order to bring down the government of Israel. If the Muslims wanted to kill every single Jew that they could get hold of anywhere in the world (as Hitler apparently wanted to do), THEN they would be wanting to "wipe out the Jews".

As it is, they are wanting to bring an end to a political state which came into being in 1948, and which they consider illegitimate. "Regime change", in other words!

"Regime change." Gosh, where have I heard that before? (grin)

Now, I'm not saying that they have any right to wipe out the state of Israel, so don't get me wrong on that. Yes, the Israelis have plenty of cause for concern about this...and so do their neighbours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:39 PM

They need a regime change at the UN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:48 PM

And in Washington. And in any number of other places too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 02:51 PM

In Canaduh too?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM

Dysfunctional Family to the Nth degree, huh?       Tw


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 04:23 PM

Little Hawk, from this statement it seems as they have a liitle bigger appetite than simply the "state" of Israel:

So much for the "moderate" faction. "We will drink the blood of the Jews," proclaimed the Hamas website, well after its landslide election victory. (They forgot to say, "Zionists".) It was the headline over the farewell message from one of Hamas's suicide bombers:

"My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. " In the name of Allah, we will destroy you, blow you up, take revenge against you, purify the land of you, pigs that have defiled our country. This operation is revenge against the sons of monkeys and pigs." Et cetera.

From http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:07 PM

LH: looks like somebody pissed on your candles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:49 PM

There are bloodthirsty fanatics in every such political cause, bobad. There are some among the Zionists too. I do not take their statements to speak for their entire people nor should you.

The quotes you have sought out from a few Muslim religious fanatics are the kind of outrageous quotes anyone can seek out if they wish to demonize all of their political opponents (as if they were all exactly the same!) and present them as vermin who deserve no mercy...in which case, it's ironical, because they are then criticizing their opponents for the same sins they are themselves guilty of.

I say that the Israelis and their foes BOTH have legitimate concerns, BOTH have suffered, BOTH are equally valuable human beings, and they should learn to live and let live. What do you say?

Do you always judge an entire people by the utterances of their most stupid, emotional, hate-filled spokesmen? If so, you would make a good executioner for someone, somewhere...I'm sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

Yeah, Ok. But you can't talk rationally ot negotiate with irrational people. All they know is hate and emotion. The only thing they respect is a hunk of lead coming in their direction.

Like I said, USA back off of Isreal, toss it into the lap of the UN and demand they take care of it. Iran could be sanctioned and even blockaded but Russia and China will not go along with it unless the pressure to do something is on them. I think the actions of the US gives them an excuse not to cooperate on sanctioning Iran

Right now they are finding Russian anti tank rockets in Lebanon. How would Comrade Putin like it if he found American made arms in Chechnya?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:25 PM

Well, I'm betting he wouldn't like it. ;-) His predecessors didn't like it when the Afghan Mujahedin fought them with American-made weapons.

Look, everybody sells weapons to whom they choose...and who they choose just depends which way the wind is blowing at the time. It isn't determined by who is "good" or "bad". The USA helps arm the Israelis and the Saudis, for example. Other people help arm the Iranians or the Syrians or Hezbollah. What exactly is the difference, morally speaking? All those weapons usually do in the end is end up killing a bunch of mostly innocent civilians who happen to get in the way. It's a crime all the way around as far as I can see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:41 PM

If you remember, The USSR was invading Afghanistan. Who is invading Iran?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 07:58 PM

Little Hawk, you state that the quotes are that of a "few religious fanatics" where did you get this information from, did you read the article? The quote is from Hamas' website, wasn't Hamas elected by a majority of Palastinians? They are hardly "a few religious fanatics"

Do you not recognize that some people may be a little sensitive to such rhetoric? Do the words "never again" mean anything to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:15 PM

The USSR occupied Afghanistan as part of their sphere of influence, and it was being ruled by the local government they installed, just like it's now being ruled by the local government that America installed. None of that had much to do with the wishes of normal Afghans in either case, did it? ;-)

America, however, definitely has invaded Iraq and Afghanistan both in recent times, and Israel definitely has invaded Lebanon twice now, so what exactly is your point? If invaders are, by definition, wrong to invade (and I would agree that they normally are wrong to do so), then why is it wrong for someone else to supply them weapons when they resist the invasion?

As for Iran, they have been invaded by Iraq in the 1980's, with American backing and encouragement. Hundreds of thousands died in that war. I suggest to you that the USA has done far more harm to Iran than Iran has done to anyone else...but they did it indirectly, using Iraqis to do it for them. They also brought down a popularly elected Iranian civil administration in the 50's in a CIA plot, and put the Shah in power in its place, and the Shah was a total despot.

Iran has not forgotten any of that. Any harm Iran has done to others pales in comparison to what the USA has already done to Iran, and is planning yet to do to Iran. I believe the worst is yet to come. I think that the USA intends to conquer Iran in the next few years, and may even use nuclear weapons to do it. We shall see.

The Iranians are doing what you would do, Old Guy. They're fighting back or preparing to fight back as best they can. Their religious fundamentalism is lamentable, but their desire to defend themselves against foreign attack is totally understandable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:43 PM

Yeah, of course I recognize that people are sensitive about it. I have stated over and over again that BOTH the Israelis and the Muslims they are fighting have totally valid reasons to be upset about what the other is saying...and more importantly...doing.

Talk's cheap, after all, but bullets and bombs are real.

George Bush keeps openly calling other countries "evil" and threatening to attack them and bring about "regime change". Doesn't he realize that people are sensitive to that sort of thing???? ;-) (well, apparently he doesn't...)

You see, behind all this sort of inflammatory rhetoric, no matter who is using it, lies a tacit, usually unspoken assumption. It goes like this:

"Violent things done by others to us are totally evil and unacceptable. Violent things WE do to others are noble, necessary, rightful, and just. This is because we're good, they're bad, and our feelings are more important than theirs."

And upon that little piece of egocentric folly and insanity is founded most of the pain and suffering in the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 11:47 PM

What Bush said about the Axis of evil is exactly true. They want to develop nukes and provide them to terrorists. Korea wants nukes to blackmail the free world with.

You are one of those middle of the road idealists that will get run over.

How does it go? Yellow lines and dead skunks are in the middle of the road.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 12:02 AM

And of course the reason that the USA, Britain, France, China developed nukes was just to rule the world in love and peace...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 01:17 AM

A terrorist is someone who deliberately terrorizes large numbers of innocent people. Armed nations who commit aggression terrorize people far more effectively than secret groups do, and they kill far more people. Armed nations with nuclear weapons and stealth bombers terrorize millions of people. Do you think Iraqis were not terrorized by "Shock and Awe"? Do you think Lebanese are not terrorized by Israeli air attacks? Do you think we have not ALL been terrorized ever since the late 40's by the nuclear arsenals of major powers?

To call only the little ragtag players that the USA or Israel or Russia or some other big power doesn't approve of "terrorists" is to use the English language in a grossly dishonest manner, with deliberate intention to deceive...or to simply not really be aware of what you are saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:12 AM

... and the Zionists in the 1930s and later were labelled 'terrorists' (by the British, wasn't it?) - they planted bombs which killed innocent civilians - but funny, isn't it, how THEY achieved their political aims... and now nukes too... and they seem to have been 'invading' (but using other words for political spin!) their neighbours for the last 50 years...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 10:45 AM

Both Arabs and Jews own the land they inhabit. When they learn to share it, the mid-east conflict will be over.

Under the Ottoman Empire, Jewish people fared well. Their religion was accepted.

Then Christianity buried the Synagogues and Temples under Cathedrals.

Religious wars are the main reason for strife in this world.

Islam and Judaism share many similar roots. When this is realized, then the world will be safer.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: 282RA
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 11:21 AM

>>Yeah, 282RA? What about Jews who aren't religious? What about Jews who are atheists? (like Woody Allen, for example)<<

I have no idea what you're talking about (big surprise). What does the formation of the Jewish religion have to do with Woody Allen or people of Jewish background who consider themselves atheists?

>>We've been over this ground already about 8500 times on this forum...<<

Oh, I see. Therefore the question is settled. Thank you for informing me.

>>the only thing that makes anyone a Jew is this: at least one of his parents was a Jew, and he or she thinks of himself/herself as being a Jew. That's it. Period. The rest is debatable.<<

Once again, what does this have to do with anything I was talking about? I said Arabs likely existed before there were Jews. I think this is fairly obvious. They were nomadic tribes living off whatever the land offered them. I said that Muslims, however, came after Jews. I think this can be easily proven. Now what has that do with with someone thinking they are a Jew or having at least one parent that was a Jew? You're losing me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Penny S.
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:55 PM

With regard to the Egyptians, I have found it very interesting to see how often, in film of modern Egyptians, there are faces which look like the faces of ancient Egyptian sculptures. And it is obvious from the way some of them speak about the past that they regard it as their past, not that of a conquered and replaced people. What about the Copts, for example?

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:04 PM

I was not disputing your entire argument, 282RA, I was only disputing your specific assertion that "Jew is a follower of a certain religion". Not so. Many Jews are not religious at all. What a Jew is, is he or she is the follower of a certain cutural identity and tradition (which are mental concepts), but not necessarily of a certain religion. The people who hate him may assume he follows a certain religion, but they may be mistaken in that assumption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:26 PM

The fact is that a phoney state was set up based on British pragmatism and a religious belief that cannot be proven. 'God promised the land to us'! Who is 'God'? I don't believe in the destruction of any people but the State of Israel is phoney and the modern State of Israel is behaving worse that Nazi Germany. UN soldiers, hospitals, Red Cross ambulances ... nothing matters except the destruction of anything and anyone in Lebanon which is perceived to be a threat to Israel's existance. They ignore UN Resolutions which they don't like and insist on the ones that suits them and know that the USA will back them because this is a Western foot in the Middle East ... money and oil.
Britain knew it couldn't beat the IRA militarily and there is no great benefit to Britain by keeping it's hold on Northen Ireland. The Tory government needed the majority provied by Northern Ireland but not the present Labout government .. they need Scotland.
Watch this space.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 06:12 PM

There are Arab Moslems, Arab Christians, Arab Druze, Arab Ba'hai, Arab Atheists and, yes, Arab Jews. One of the issues that Mohammed had during his conquest of the Arabian Peninsula was that there were nomadic Jewish tribes there as well as Arab tribes worshiping other gods. Many of the Jews expelled from the Arab and other Moslem nations in 1949 were physically indistinguishable from their former hosts. Among those who came to Israel after it was founded were a group of Ethiopians who trace their lineage to the priests who came to Axum after the Queen of Sheba's visit to Solomon. Other Jewish emigrants included ethnic Chinese, Russians and Europeans.

By the way, it is a myth that Jews were treated well in the Arab nations prior to the mandate or the establishment of Israel, except for a very brief period in Spain in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. Just as in Western Europe, they were restricted as to the occupations they were allowed to pursue, the neighborhoods in which they were allowed to live and were sometimes required to wear special articles of clothing. Christians were subject to much the same kind of restrictions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 09:55 PM

There are separate questions-the jews were invented before the moslems, but the arabs predate both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:10 PM

"And of course the reason that the USA, Britain, France, China developed nukes was just to rule the world in love and peace."

I dunno. Was it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:25 PM

This was a distortion. When the smoke blew away there was one casualty, not 40.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/08/08/stories/2006080808461200.htm
Addressing Arab Foreign Ministers in Beirut on Monday morning, Lebanon's Prime Minister Fuad Saniora said an Israeli attack had killed 40 persons in Houla. "An hour ago, there was a horrific massacre in the village of Houla in which more than 40 martyrs were victims of deliberate bombing," he said.

Interrupting his remarks several times to fight back tears and to wipe his eyes, Mr. Saniora accused Israel of indulging in "State terrorism". "If these horrific actions are not State terrorism then what is State terrorism?" He said Israeli strikes had taken "our country back decades. We are still in the middle of the shock."

Corroborating Mr. Saniora's assertion, local Lebanese television stations had reported that about 40 persons had been buried under the rubble of houses that had collapsed on being hit during Israeli air strikes. The Israel army said it was investigating the allegation, but added that it had warned residents in Lebanon's southern villages to leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:29 PM

Answer to your question, neither.

According to the old histories and religious writings, the first person who could have been called Jewish - Abraham - wasn't and wouldn't have any idea of what the term meant.

Next clarification is the odd perception among westerners - esp Christians - that the entire OT is the product of the Jewish religion. Well it wasn't and isn't.

For one thing, the story of Noah predates Abraham and is shared - also claimed - by many different cultures including the Arabs. Nor is there any reason to suppose that Abraham's tale is completely original either. Compare NT stories with the old pagan religions of Rome. See Mythracism myths V NT Messiah.

All in all, one can agree with Rebbi-Sol above if the entire population of Ur ceased to exist, after Abraham left the city - now near Bagdad in modern Iraq.

But it didn't. So there is one heckuva gap in history right there.

Modern Jewish people are as descended from Urians as modern day Urians and if they did not have different religions it would be hard to distinguish the one from the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM

One thing that tweaks my curiosity is that Jesus spoke Aramaic as his primary language.

Aramaic sounds Arab to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 11:02 PM

To the best of my knowledge there are no living Aramaic speakers, so how would you, or anyone else, know if it sounded Arab (by which I assume you mean Arabic) or not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: number 6
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 11:03 PM

I think they where just people ... did they know what they where?

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 02:55 AM

Well Old Guy, I'm an old guy too. I believe your question was "Who came first? The Arabs or the Jews?" The most ancient source of information on this question is the Torah or the Christian's Old Testament. The father of both was a man from Ur of the Chaldees (roughly modern day Iraq) whose name was Abram. The story starts in the Book of Genesis, I believe Chapter 11. God told him to pack up and move out to a land that He would show him. His household and his nephew Lot went with him and they eventually arived at the land of Canaan. Because he was faithful in his response to God's direction God made a promise to him. He told him that He would give him a son by his wife Sarai. If you read through this section you'll see that I am skipping a lot of detail that is important but I am trying to get to your specific question. In his old age Abraham (note the name change) began to doubt and probably thought (along with his wife Sarah[note again a name change]), that maybe God needed a little help. This is what one would call a "lack of faith". Abraham took Sarah's servant Hagar as a concubine and had Ishmael, the father of the Arabic peoples. Hagar is considered to have been an Egyptian by many scholars. God's promises also extended to Ishmael as he was Abraham's firstborn but he was not the child of faith nor was he the child of Sarah. If I remember right Ishmael was about seventeen when Isaac ("Laughter" because Sarah had laughed in disbelief at God's promise) was born. Sarah then desired to drive Hagar and Ishmael from the camp, which she did. A prophecy was made concerning Ishmael that he (and his decendants) would be a wildman and that everyman's hend would be against him and his hand against every man. The answer is that the Arabs came first. The Jews are descendants of Judah, one of the 12 (or 13) children of Jacob.

An interesting sidenote to this is that when Moses went out into the desert in exhile he came into an Arab settlement (the Middianites) and married a Middianite woman. It was the Middianite's God who called to him from the burning bush and eventually revealed Himself as the I AM (YHWH). In the King James and most English Bibles where the name LORD all in caps appears the Hebrew word is YHWH and where God appears the word is Elohim (the Strong One). El is suffixed into many Hebrew names ( Isra el, Jo el, Micha el, etc.) as an honorific to the diety. Yah is prefixed into names as a specific honorific to YHWH.

Time and space do not allow for a full exposition of the failures of the Hebrew/Jewish people nor the failures of the Arabs nor the failures of those who go by the title of Christian but there is plenty of blame to go around but I dare say that Judasim, Christianity and Islam all have preachments which allow for the peaceful co-existence (or tri-existence) of these children and adopted children of Abraham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:26 AM

according to tradition, both Arabs and Jews are descended from Shem, a son of Noah, so they are Semites. Arab and Hebrew are part of the Semitic language group. They are brothers or cousins, some of whom MUCH, MUCH later began to worship the same god in a different way, even though the ancient Jews themselves worshipped many gods, in many ways, before committing to mono-theism. This modern day conflict is the result of British Imperialism and hubris, and largely Christian anti-Semitic rhetoric going back to the crusades and earlier. People, whether you choose to call them Palestinians or not, lived in what became Israel for generations before the return of Jewish peoples from Europe and elsewhere, some of whose families had lived in Russia, or Spain, or Poland, or Turkey for as long as many of the "Palestinian" arabs had lived in Palestine. Eventually, these two groups, arab, whether christian or moslem or pagan and Israeli, whether orthodox or not, or even secular and atheist, must find a way to live together or destroy each other. There are the same terrorist acts on either side, as well as the same heroic acts of humanism and compassion. No side has a moral high ground least of all anything ridiculously referred to as a 'God-given' right to this territory.
Shalom and Salaam are the same words, after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:51 AM

GUEST, Bill Kennedy: just as a point of clarification, there were Jews in what the British called Palestine long before anyone began to "return." The Jewish community in Jerusalem really never left, except for a very brief period after the Roman expulsion, and the community in Tiberius is just about as long-lived. In fact, most of the people massacred when the Crusaders took Jerusalem during the First Crusade were Jews...and some Christians...because the Moslem residents were all allowed to flee by the city's defenders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 12:54 PM

of course there were, never meant to imply otherwise, just as there are Arab Israelis who stayed put as well. that doesn't change the the underlying intent of my post, to point out that these two cultures were once of the same tribe, either literally if you believe in scripture, or metaphorically if as I you do not. And that sometime, probably after much more blood is shed, they must find a way to live in peace. Nothing good can come of violence. the adage 'live by the sword, die by the sword' is in some ways more a natural law, than a prophecy. The US is a nation founded on the genocide of the first peoples that were here, and this genocide infects and corrupts everything that has followed. We have twice used atomic bombs on innocent civilian populations, because we could, because we had the might. But we never had the right, and will never be right, until there is some real atonement, if that is possible. And now the outrageous murder and destruction by the mighty Israel with our support financial and military. "sow the wind, reap the whirlwind", again a natural law, not just a prophecy, but in the end there is a desire for peace. or is it all to be an eternal game of 'who struck John?' vengeance begetting vengeance till the last man stands holding the dripping knife? What savage, idiotic, barbarians we are, what cowards to allow this to continue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:02 PM

re: Aramaic
There are no current Aramaic speakers. However, the language survives in its written form and is used in several prayers in the Hebrew liturgy.

The theory that anyone who has a Jewish parent is Jewish is an incorrect gereralization. Under Hebrew law, only the child of a Jewish mother is Jewish. This is being modified, mostly within the Reform movement.

Until the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, and through most of the period until the establishment of the Israel, the vast majority of the Arabs living on the land were tenant farmers, under their sheiks and Ottoman governors. When the Zionists came to the land, they bought it from the Ottomans and the Sheiks, who moved the Arabs our of the way.

The currently accepted "legal" borders of Israel are not those set forth in the United Nations plan. They are the borders Israel was able to win prior to the 1948 ceasefire.

Finally, the word "Hebrew," derives from "Ivri" a word meaning "wanderer."


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,my
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 01:09 PM

I heard they speak Aramaic in some part of Syria still.. not sure where I heard that. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:27 PM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 06:48 PM

"it is a myth that Jews were treated well in the Arab nations"

Basically, it was a policy of tolerated inferiority.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 07:05 PM

Yes in Syria there is a region where the language is Aramaic.

Now to Slag's attempt to pass the buck.

Look here old chap, nobody can deny Abraham was an Iragi and nobody is asserting that the tribe of Abraham's father ceased to exist.

Fact is, there are millions of people in that area who are NOT descended from Ishmael, so they do NOT belong in your cockamaymie scheme of things.

Now as to Ishmael, there is NO proof that Arabs are descended from this fellow, and what is offered is yet more religico-wishfulness.

My 10 cents.

Olmert is an a*****hole and shouldv'e had the wit to hold his fire while we in the west are led by one whose claim to common-sense can justifiably be questioned.

May G_d save us from idiots and maniacs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 07:34 PM

Too late. The idiots and maniacs are in control of the asylum, have their fingers on the red button, and think they are on a mission from God.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 08:58 PM

I meant that the name Aramaic sounds like Arab-like.

I have no Idea wht the language sounds like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 09:03 PM

There is a link here to The Lord's Prayer in Aramaic.

LINK


Scroll halfway down the page.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 02:13 AM

Guest "Sorefingers" or is that Sorehead? claims that I am attepting to pass the buck. Well, go back and CAREFULLY read my posting. I was merely citing what the ancient text had to say on the matter. It is the earliest source I know of. Is it accurate? You have to decide that on your own. You must allow that it is plausible. Intermarriage, adoption, familial and national alliances and proselytization as well as other social events does a lot to blend the genetic profile of people indigenous to the region.

Your response is one of anger. Why? I am just trying to impart a little information on the subject. I attacked no one. Why are you so insulting? With an attitude like yours we never will have an end to terrorism and war. Cockamamie? Well Ok, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. But just remember, I didn't write the book. You're going to have to take up your arguement with the author.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 06:53 AM

The multiple human writers (and rewriters) are all dead. Now if you really meant 'The One Who inspired the writing'...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Rene Thomas
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 12:53 PM

religion is a way of taking advantage of those who are less educated when it comes to the pursuit of faith in search of salvation. it does matter who comes first, but knowing who comes first does not justifies a greater relationship with GOD. no form of religions is mentioned in any biblical text, we , as men decided to create theses religions to broaden our territories and influences abroad by anymeans necessary. i tell you what , it is writen in the old testament that the first born belongs to Him, since Ismael is firt born child, we can conclude the promise si with the arabs. the term jew is a new term and we mentioned it , we usually to white jews in israel. i cannot see how we lost from being hebrew in egypt or israelites to jew.the twelve tribes still exist today an dwe worry about the whites people in israel claiming that they are teh chosen people fo Jacob= israel. egypt cannot be a black country then holding thousands of white peopel in captivity. it is a matter of race and religion tha tthat get the world confused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:24 PM

Well, Rene, I must say that I find your lack of normal punctuation, missing capital letters, and incoherent sentence structure a bit confusing as well... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 03:03 PM

Edidently English is not her first language but her writing is on a par with Bobert's.

Correct me if I am wrong but what I gather from all this is Jews descended from or were Arabs, Christians and Muslims descended from Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 02:26 AM

This is a great thread. Now here's my two cents.

As nomadic Arab herdsmen began to settle, a moral authority developed and the religion was called Judaism. Many were unhappy with Judaism because they thought it had become corrupt. Christians were the rebels.

While civilization developed, there remained nomadic tribes of Arabs in the wilderness. Mohammed brought religion and a moral code to these people which was no small task. Therefore we have 3 very similar religions. They all have the same roots and the people also share a common heritage.

btw - Somebody mentioned that the Jews were freed from their captivity in Babylon. Yes, after Cyrus (a Zoroastrian), liberated Babylon he told the Jews to go to their promised land and build their temples and worship their God.

From Oznet (but you can google Cyrus and learn more about him):

As Prof. Richard Frye of Harvard said (in The Heritage of Persia, p10-151):

"In the victories of the Persians... what was different was the new policy of reconciliation and together with this was the prime aim of Cyrus to establish a pax Achaemenica..... If one were to assess the achievements of the Achaemenid Persians, surely the concept of One World, .... the fusion of peoples and cultures in one 'Oecumen' was one of their important legacies"

The victory over Babylonia expressed all the facets of the policy of conciliation which Cyrus had followed until then. He presented himself not as a conqueror, but a liberator and the legitimate successor to the crown. He took the title of "King of Babylon_ King of the Land". Cyrus had no thought of forcing conquered people into a single mould, and had the wisdom to leave unchanged the institution of each kingdom he attached to the Persian Crown. In 537 BC he allowed more than 40,000 Jews to leave Babylon and return to Palestine. This step was in line with his policy to bring peace to Mankind. A new wind was blowing from the east, carrying away the cries and humility of defeated and murdered victims, extinguishing the fires of sacked cities, and liberating nations from slavery.

Cyrus was upright, a great leader of men, generous and benelovent. The Hellenes, whom he conquered regarded him as 'Law-giver' and the Jews as 'the annointed of the Lord'.

Where is Cyrus when we need him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 03:21 AM

Who cares? It is a problem of military history - what you took with the sword can be taken from you with the sword again.
Peace can only be created by mutual respect for other man's rights (the famous saying of Lic. Benito Juarez, in short).


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 07:52 AM

Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:06 AM

I don't think it's very tasteful to make these kind of dumb sex jokes about warring peoples...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM

Same face same race, as somebody once said.
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:29 AM

... and God spake unto Moses and said "Come forth".

And Moses tripped, and came fifth...

Thanks for reminding me of my childhood Little Hawk....


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:59 AM

It is clear that Islam began around 800 AD correct?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 11:37 AM

622 A.D. is the start of the Muslim calendar. For a much more recent religion there is the Bahai faith which started in the 1800's. It has a great many very progressive ideas, much more so than either Islam or Christianity, and it recognizes the legitimacy of all other world religions, their prophets, and their teachings.

The Bahai faith started in Iran where it has received great persecution from the Muslim majority to this day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:24 PM

As indeed do the few remaining original Zoastrians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:39 PM

Ok. Focusing on only Jews, Muslims and Christians because it is so damned complicated.

What the hell are we fighting about? They all have the same roots like Judaism is the mother religion, Christianity is the first offspring and Islam is the second.

It looks to like Zealots are causing the problems.

I really don't have a religion myself but I tolerate other religions as long as it is not some bastards t5hat want to kill me because I am not exactly like them. Isn't that what civilization is all about? Tolerating other people that are different?

Have I achieved enlightenment?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:57 PM

The Zoroastrians were the original Monotheists...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 08:59 PM

My Scottish pagan wife, says pagans were first.

Foole ... Your last statement says it all ... and I wish everyone could acheive that simple rule.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:33 PM

Couldn't agree with you more, Old Guy. It's ludicrous that these 3 religions which are 3 branches of the same original tree should be fighting each other. It casts doubt on the whole darned tree from which they grew.

Civilization is definitely about tolerating other people who are different, and most of us would be quite willing to if a few zealots and greedy people in search of money didn't start wars and cause all the trouble.

But when the bombs start going off people get scared...and scared people lash out...and everything goes out of control quicker than you can see "Jack Robinson" or "Jihad".


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 09:58 PM

I have been to all kinds of churches and even a Jewish funeral. Nothing I can't hack. I even have Amish friends.

There is an "Islamic Learning Center" under construction in site of my house. I hope they won't be teaching Jihad there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 10:04 PM

er my mistake ... my agreement goes to Old Guy.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 02:30 AM

In response to dianavan's somewhat incoherent ramblings: I have never seen Christainity so completely mischaracterized, misrepresented and maligned then dismissed in so short of a space. Your scholarship defies discription and makes me wonder at the main bulk of your post. I frightens me that I actually agree with a small part of it.

The word religion is used twice in the KJV, once in Galatians 1:14 and again in James 1:26. The Greek word is "threskeia" or "threskos" and it means an outward appearance of piety. Elsewhere the words worship (worthiness), Godliness, piety have a similar but more positive meaning.

This thread has the potential to rehash the history of the world and certainly the history of religious thought and development in the Western and Middle-Eastern World and we really don't want to go there. I'll just comment that the Bible, the Jewish Torah has the argument of antiquity on it's side. It has a very high degree of demonstrable integrity in it's favor ( a history and tradition of accurate copy). The New Testament, to the believers of Jesus as God's Messiah (The Anmointed One) neatly dovetails with the Torah as a fulfilment of prophesies of the same. I have read some of the Qoran in English and I cannot speak as one who has a complete intellectual understanding of the same but from what I have read it is quite divergent from the ancient texts. My impression is that it is written as a reaction to the dominance of Judaism and Christianity at the time it was written (ca 600 A.D.). The Book of Mormon uses a similar approach (additional and counter-revelations) posited against the more ancient texts.

So many people have gotten it so wrong for so long that I really hesitate to say anything beyond the most general and self-evident facts. These "RELIGIONS" of peace have killed so many people, have been abused and missused to subdue and enslave people. And, I have to assume that each practioner of each view-point truly believes that "they have it right." I'll refrain. But (there's always a "but") I will say this: Before you comment on this source of so much that has gone into shaping our world---READ IT! Sound like you know what you are talking about. That or go post on another thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:46 AM

"the Jewish Torah has the argument of antiquity on it's side. It has a very high degree of demonstrable integrity in it's favor ( a history and tradition of accurate copy"

... except for the Hosianiac conspiracy, which has now been 'outed'...

... but then, how would I know?

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

Slag - What are you talking about?

All I said was that Christians were rebellious Jews.

Why do you think I "mischaracterized, misrepresented and maligned" Christianity?

Instead of attacking my "sholarship", please tell me what it is you disagree with. Besides that, "my two cents" does not equal my "scholarship" and this is not a thesis, its an internet forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 03:31 PM

"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft..." I Samuel 15:23a. Jesus is quoted in Matthew 23:2 "...Saying, 'the scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat; [that is the seat of Jewish State auhority] '" v. 3 "All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do [ that doesn't sound like rebellion to me ]; but do not ye after their works: for they say and do not [meaning that they did not keep their own dictates but Christ's followers should!]"

Elsewhere Jesus says [ Mt 5:17 ] "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." THAT doesn't sound like rebellion either.

The writer of Hebrews [12:14] says "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:"

In numerous places the Apostle Paul admonishes his converts to obey the authorities that be "for all authority comes from God [ not the abuse of authority]. Rebellion is the antithesis of the Christian doctrine.

So, I renew my original argument. You have mischaracterized Christians and Christianity.

True. It is an internet forum. Does that mean that the rules of logic no longer apply? Every statement should go unchallenged? Yes, you have an opinion. Seems everybody does but what is your opinion worth? Well, I guess I should lighten up a little. After all the forum is called BS and your statement certainly qualifies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 05:44 PM

So then, that means that Christians are completely observant Jews? Then who is this Jesus guy, anyway?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

If Christianity isn't a form of rebellion against Judaism, then why is there Christianity or the New Testament for that matter. Why didn't they just stick to the Old Testament and Judaism?

It may have been a peaceful (was it?) rebellion but it was a rebellion none the less. Christians defied many of the cultural conventions of the Jews, including dietary restrictions. I thought Jesus spoke quite harshly about the money lenders in the temple. I also thought the Jews did not believe Jesus to be the Messiah.

In any event, Christianity created a schism.

So Slag - Too bad you have to resort to putting me down to convince yourself that you are more learned, scholarly and worthy than me. My statement was not without logic and it was not intended as a smear to either Christianity or Judaism.

btw - I am neither Christian or Jew so take your assumptions and your arrogance elsewhere. I have read both the old and new testaments but do not recite versus.

I have just as much right to post as you do. You don't own this thread so you can't tell me what to do or where to post. Do you really think that you are considered to be an authority on the subject? What a joke.

Like I said, I gave my two cents. Take it or leave it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:31 PM

'Do you really think that you are considered to be an authority on the subject?'

If you insist on getting all your history from a literal reading of just one book...

Slag neglected to mention that subsequent Pauline Conspiracy# allowed non-Jews to become Christians. That caused a big bun fight at the time. Rebellion or not, the Christians were no longer welcome...





# I'm not referring to Mrs Hanson...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 02:22 AM

First I must apologize to dianavan. I DID get personal. I do sometimes get a little caught up in the to and fro and I need to take my own advice to lighten up a bit.

To answer artbrooks and your comments: At first the Christians WERE completely observant Jews and the only Bible they had was the Torah. That's what they used and quoted. Jesus was considered by some Jews who believed him to be the promised and long awaited Messiah. Messiah means the Anointed One in Hebrew as does the term Christ in Greek.

The first Messianic promise/prophesy is in the Book of Genesis [ Chapter 3, vss 14-15]. God promises that the seed of the women (the Messisah) will bruise the head of the Serpent ( Satan, the adversary of Mankind) and the Serpent will bruise the heel of the Messiah. In light of subsequent prophesies this has been understood by most mean that an appointed One would come to destroy Satan and his work (the Fall of Man) and that Satan would inflict a poisonous blow to the Messiah.

Another great promise to Abraham, the father of Ishmael and Israel [Genesis 12: 2,3 ] was that for his obedience God was going to make a great nation of him (Abraham) and that all the families of Earth would be blessed through him.

Many other Messianic prophesies are scattered throughout the pages of the Torah which fill out the picture. One of the most remarkable and complete prophesies is Isaiah 52: 13- 15 through Isaiah 53:1-12.

The New Testament came about as members of the new sect began to write down their recollections and those of others about the life of Christ and the events which surrounded His ministry and penultimately His sacrifice.

As the revelation and understanding began to grow and as people began to understand the freedom and liberty they had by surrender and acceptance of Jesus as their Messiah and their ultimate authority, the Jewish authorities began to realize that their grip on their people was slipping away and they began to persecute the new movement. When ever the verbal showdowns came the Jewish authorities' bottom line as to who was in control of their people's conscience, their soul the Christians would respond that they would obey God and not Man. Was this rebellion? No. This was the re-establishment of God's order that was in the beginning BEFORE the Fall. It was putting an end to Mankind's rebellion from God. You might say that Christianity is the ultimate capitualation.

Beyond the four bios of Christ ( Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and the history of the early Church ( The Acts of the Apostles) are the letters of Paul and Peter and some others to those early Churches. These works became the New Testament and they serve as an explanation of how Christ fulfilled the promises and prophesies of the Jewish Scriptures.

As the word spread and the movement grew, proselytized Gentiles and other Ethnic groups began to respond to the Truth they were hearing. The problem for the very early Church was that these folks were not Jews!!! Much debate went on and for some these converts had to first become Jews which meant circumcision. The ins and outs of this debate are recorded in the New Testament as well as it's resolution. The Apostle Paul's clarion truth won out. There is NO act of Man that can secure salvation for himself. All the work was done by Jesus Christ's atoning death and ressurection. Circumcision wouldn't cut it! It counted for nothing. To believe that there was something you could do to save yourself was to claim that you didn't need God or His Son's sacrifice, that is to say, to reject what Christ did as only He could was to reject your only means of salvation. The thread of this idea runs throughout the New Testament but is most clearly seen in the Letter to the Church at Ephesus and again in Paul's Letter to the Galatians.

Paul was not in a conspiracy. His preachment was open and clear to all and when he was called to Jesusalem to explain his message and mission to the Gentile nations he made no bones about it. The Gospel was for the blessing of ALL nations as promised to Abraham 1700 years or so earlier.

I am putting this out as informational. The Christian sect of Judaism was never intended to be a rebellion and I want to personally apologize again to dianavan and anyone else who was rightly offended by my obviously bellicose debate mode. It wasn't warranted and it certainly did not reflect a Christ-like attitude on my part! I'm not perfect, just forgiven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 03:24 AM

Well, at least your two cents is definitely no better than mine. Longer, perhaps but I still think your statement,

"the Christians would respond that they would obey God" shows that they were rebelling against Jewish Authority.

You can call it whatever you want.

I would also like to remind you that your version of events is only your version. There are plenty of others who have their version of events.

Mankind's rebellion from God? Now there's a concept! Its so obvious that the majority of North America and Europe is rebelling against God, what do you suppose will happen next? Have we got to the book of Revelations yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 07:10 AM

"Was this rebellion? No. This was ...."

That's YOUR opinion.



"I'm not perfect, just forgiven"

... in your opinion... by whom you care about ... but not necessarily by everybody else... if you ASS-U-ME automatic total forgivness by everyone, you make an ASS...

That may be The Almighty's Way, but it is clearly not Mankind's Way, as the current differences of opinion in the Middle East demonstrate... and we all have to share this planet with those who do not always share our beliefs, for the moment..


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM

Well Foolestroupe, my statement and conclusions are drawn from the source I was referencing. I wasn't refering to YOUR lack of forgiveness. That is YOUR ass-umption. The message of Christianity is that God has forgiven us. It was Christ's prayer at His crucifixion "Father, forgive them..." All of Mankind has received the forgiveness of God. This is what "Grace" means and I do accept God's forgiveness. As for you, I am not really aware of anything I need forgiveness from you for but if you think I do then I would hope that you would forgive me but if you don't I think I can probably live with it. As per your last statement I totally agree. One's faith should hopefully include tolerance for those of other faiths and opinions. We have got to stop sawing off people's head or stealing their lands or resources in the name of God (or expedience).

As per dianavan's last statement, if Man, represented by Adam and Eve, lived in a state of harmony with God in the beginning then breaking that harmony in order to go their "own" way or to become their own gods WAS an act of rebellion and so is every choice throughout history that goes against the Author and Creator of Life.

One of the hard things in discussing religion and psychotherapy is that both operate from a closed system. That means that every criticism gets interpreted by the internal logic of the system and has a "pat" answer or explanation. If you criticized Freud in some way he would interpret that not as a criticism but as a manifestation of your own anal-expulsive complex. You can't win. Same thing with religion. It's like you are both using the same language or words but the meanings have been altered and you are drawing different conclusions. If the discussion were about the Maha-yana or the Hina-yana sects of Bhuddissm rather than "Who came first, the Arab of the Jew" I could answer from within the different systems of Bhuddism and be able to apply that system in such a way that it answers every question. That's the nature of the beast.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 08:41 PM

I thought when Christ said Forgive them for they no not what they do, he was referring to the specific incident, ie: the crucifixion.

Odd, how someone can exprapolate from the specific and create a doctrine that covers the general population.

From someone who was born without sin, I get a little chuckle from your example of Adam and Eve, Slag.

Carry on, old boy, if it works for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM

" The message of Christianity is that God has forgiven us."

As I said, God forgives, Man doesn't...


"One of the hard things in discussing religion and psychotherapy is that both operate from a closed system"

Yep - for a good dissertation on this, read "Escher, Godel and Bach - an Eternal Golden Braid" by Pulitzer prizewinner Douglass Hofstedder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM

Not original, I know, but this seemed like a good place to put it:

During these serious times it is important for all of us, of all faiths, to recognize these four Religious Truths:

1. Muslims do not recognize Jews as God's chosen people.

2. Jews do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

3. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the leader of the Christian world.

4. Baptists do not recognize each other at Hooters


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:30 PM

Come on artbrooks! I saw a pair of Baptized Hooters that I would recognize Anywhere! O, e-a-c-h o-t-h-e-r! Well, you may have a couple of points there.

Written across the base structure of the dome on the Dome of the Rock mosque in Jerusalem in Arabic ( I've been told ) are the words "God has no son." I don't know if the word used there for God is Allah but if it is, I would have to agree with their statement, Allah has no son.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM

Man oh man, this round robin is a gittin' ineressen' my two cents is wurth as much as ennywun's so I's gonna merely observe that Arabs is Semites and Jews is religionists. Therefore y'kin be Arab and Jewish as there them Yamenites iz.

So th'original question containes the seeds of its own disslution since it is a nonsense question. If the question is who come first, Arab or Phoenician, Who come first, Arab or Greek? Anuther parallel question might could be: who come first, Muslim or Jew? But that there question purty much answers itself.

BAck in Biblical days there were Cananites, 'gyptians, Philistines, 'n such. Don't recall Arabs in the good book. Assyrians, fo'sure.

But I know many people in this thread got themselves a prbelm 'memberin' back before Barbie thew Ken out on his ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM

"Back in Biblical days there were [snip] Philistines"...

... but the problem is that at the alleged time that a literal reading of the OT claims they were there, the Philistines hadn't yet arrived in the good ol' lands. I doubt they had even got out of bed...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Naemanson
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 09:38 PM

Who came first? Ugh, the cave man. When he saw a lightning strike he interpreted it as a sign from the sky god. Unfortunately Agh, the other cave man, saw it as a sign from the cloud god. They've been fighting ever since with only small changes in philosophy and large changes in weaponry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 10:47 PM

To get to the other side!

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 26 Aug 06 - 11:54 PM

Robo Man, et al, read the earlier posts. Yes the Bible does mention Arabs several times plus other named off-shoots of the family. Moses' wife was a Middianite, i.e. an Arab. Hebrews and Arabs were not always at each other's throat!! "Palestine" was Roman for Philistine which was what Emperor Hadrian ( of "WaLL" fame ) named it after he forced the Jews out of their homeland after killing almost a million of them. There were NO Palestinians around at that time. The Philistines were actually Phoenicians and were most likely the progenitors of the Greeks. Check out the alphabet developements. They were a very interesting people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:18 AM

... but the OT (fount of literal knowledge) omits those living in China, England, France and the rest of Europe, the Americas, Australia, the Pacific Islands, etc...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 04:48 AM

And Noah didn't take kangaroos, emus and wallabies into the Ark...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 12:44 PM

It remains a fact, regardless of what obscure quotes are found in the English language version of the Bible, that "Arab" denotes a specific racial/ethnic type and "Jew" refers to a person who is, or is descended from, a practitioner of the Jewish religion. All Moslems are not Arabs, and some Jews are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 03:50 PM

Thanks AB that's what I was trying to say but the hour was weird and for some reason I was channeling Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 05:08 PM

Well, no, you're almost right. The Hebrew Bible in the Hebrew language mentions Arabs (aleph, resh, beth) which derives from a root word that means, ironically enough, "Ambush" or to lurk, lie in wait. The first instance is Joshua 15:52. Both Ishmael and Israel descend from the same father, different mothers, they are half brothers. Both sides of the question readily agree to this! It's a family feud. One of Israel's 13 or so children was named Judah. Judah's tribe united with the tribe of Benjamin and they became the southern kingdom, under the reigns of David and Solomon. The hot bone of contention was where was the correct place to worship God. Bethel (the House of God ) in the north had the earlier claim. The Judeans and Benjaminites claimed revelation and establisjhed a temple in Jerusalem. The ten tribes to the north rebelled after the death of Solomon and the miserable reign of his son Rehoboam and it remmaind that way until the Disapora. It is interesting to have this in mind when you read the account of Christ and the woman at the well in Samaria. The Jews as a state and a religion hated the Samarian even to the time of Christ even though they were all closely related as were the Arabs. As a religion, the Jews (as descendants of Judah and Benjamin) they believed they were the guardians of the TRUTH. If one consented to this and converted he too could become a Jew, of sorts (the religion aspect) but he wasn't as Jewish as one born a Jew. In this day and age that has sort of lost it's distinction among many, although many others claim to have kept their genealogies from ancient times. So, Judaism is a race and a religion neither of which are absolutely necessarily inclusive. You can be of the Jewish (and in the broader sense "Semitic") race and not be a religious person. Such is the view Hitler took. You can be a Jew and not be Semitic like Sammy Davis Jr. was. Pretty much the same with most of Islam and being an Arab.

As for Noah, he was neither. I don't think he took any termites along for the voyage (for obvious reasons) and yet here they are. I know of certain fundamentalist who even claim that he had dinosaurs on the ark because since the Earth is only 6000 years old they had to co-exist with man AFTER the Flood. Since God is not the author of confusion, I tend to not buy this reading of events. Thinking like this happens when you believe in Holy Ink. In those days the "whole earth" was a much more local event especially since, as you pointed out foolestroupe, the extent of the Earth was so largely unknown. Big flood to them! It got everything, i.e. the "Whole Earth" and what foresight to save your farm animals and sacrificial animals. If God in His wisdom invented nature and the laws of nature I would have to assume that all He did, He did through those laws of nature. Some very extraordinary events DO take place in this world, some quite devastating and if you believe in the Creator you may understand these events as having purpose but the "natural" explanation will also hold water (pun intended). This always brings the question of God down to a matter of faith as opposed to a provable fact. I've got some Scripture for that too but I'm sure you grasp the concept without going into detail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM

Yes Slag, and as my old minister used to say, don't ever forget that teh Devil can cite scripture for his purpose - and THAT always confusedme -how do I know? :-)


"Since God is not the author of confusion"

I do like that expression...


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 11:43 PM

That's sweet, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:11 AM

Too many people insist on speaking for God. He is able to speak for Himself. And if He doesn't speak for Himself, maybe He just don't feel like talkin' right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:36 AM

" He walks with me and He talks with me
And He tells me I am His own
And the joy we share as I tarry there..."
Sorry, the last line is theologically incorrect so I won't recite it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:38 AM

Why not? Either quote Miles or don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 01:29 PM

Linguistically the following chart of languages of Semitic derivation, both Arabic and Hebrew (as well as African relations) may be of interest,

Semitic (73)
Central (55)
Aramaic (16)
Eastern (14)
Central (11)
Northeastern (9)
ASSYRIAN NEO-ARAMAIC [AII] (Iraq)
CHALDEAN NEO-ARAMAIC [CLD] (Iraq)
HÉRTEVIN [HRT] (Turkey)
HULAULÁ [HUY] (Israel)
KOI-SANJAQ SOORET [KQD] (Iraq)
LISHANA DENI [LSD] (Israel)
LISHANÁN [TRG] (Israel)
LISHANID NOSHAN [AIJ] (Israel)
SENAYA [SYN] (Iran)
Northwestern (2)
MLAHSÓ [QMQ] (Syria)
TUROYO [SYR] (Turkey)
Mandaic (2)
MANDAIC, CLASSICAL [MYZ] (Iran)
MANDAIC [MID] (Iran)
SYRIAC [SYC] (Turkey)
Western (2)
SAMARITAN ARAMAIC [SRA] (Palestinian West Bank and Gaza)
WESTERN NEO-ARAMAIC [AMW] (Syria)
South (39)
Arabic (36)
ARABIC, ALGERIAN SAHARAN SPOKEN [AAO] (Algeria)
ARABIC, ALGERIAN SPOKEN [ARQ] (Algeria)
ARABIC, BAHARNA SPOKEN [AFH] (Bahrain)
ARABIC, CHADIAN SPOKEN [SHU] (Chad)
ARABIC, CYPRIOT SPOKEN [ACY] (Cyprus)
ARABIC, DHOFARI SPOKEN [ADF] (Oman)
ARABIC, EGYPTIAN SPOKEN [ARZ] (Egypt)
ARABIC, GULF SPOKEN [AFB] (Iraq)
ARABIC, HADRAMI SPOKEN [AYH] (Yemen)
ARABIC, HASSANIYA [MEY] (Mauritania)
ARABIC, HIJAZI SPOKEN [ACW] (Saudi Arabia)
ARABIC, JUDEO-IRAQI [YHD] (Israel)
ARABIC, JUDEO-MOROCCAN [AJU] (Israel)
ARABIC, JUDEO-TRIPOLITANIAN [YUD] (Israel)
ARABIC, JUDEO-TUNISIAN [AJT] (Israel)
ARABIC, JUDEO-TUNISIAN [AJT] (Tunisia)
ARABIC, JUDEO-YEMENI [JYE] (Israel)
ARABIC, LIBYAN SPOKEN [AYL] (Libya)
ARABIC, MESOPOTAMIAN SPOKEN [ACM] (Iraq)
ARABIC, MOROCCAN SPOKEN [ARY] (Morocco)
ARABIC, NAJDI SPOKEN [ARS] (Saudi Arabia)
ARABIC, NORTH LEVANTINE SPOKEN [APC] (Syria)
ARABIC, NORTH MESOPOTAMIAN SPOKEN [AYP] (Iraq)
ARABIC, NORTHEAST EGYPTIAN BEDAWI SPOKEN [AVL] (Egypt)
ARABIC, OMANI SPOKEN [ACX] (Oman)
ARABIC, SA ARABIC, SANAANI SPOKEN [AYN] (Yemen)
ARABIC, SHIHHI SPOKEN [SSH] (United Arab Emirates)
ARABIC, SOUTH LEVANTINE SPOKEN [AJP] (Jordan)
ARABIC, STANDARD [ABV] (Saudi Arabia)
ARABIC, SUDANESE SPOKEN [APD] (Sudan)
ARABIC, TA'IZZI-ADENI [ACQ] (Yemen)
ARABIC, TAJIKI SPOKEN [ABH] (Tajikistan)
ARABIC, TUNISIAN SPOKEN [AEB] (Tunisia)
JAKATI [JAT] (Moldova)
MALTESE [MLS] (Malta)
Canaanite (3)
HEBREW, ANCIENT [HBO] (Israel)
HEBREW [HBR] (Israel)
SAMARITAN [SMP] (Palestinian West Bank and Gaza)
South (18)
Ethiopian (12)
North (3)
GEEZ [GEE] (Ethiopia)
TIGRÉ [TIE] (Eritrea)
TIGRINYA [TGN] (Ethiopia)
South (9)
Outer (3)
n-Group (2)
GAFAT [GFT] (Ethiopia)
GURAGE, NORTH [GRU] (Ethiopia)
tt-Group (1)
GURAGE, WEST [GUY] (Ethiopia)
Transversal (6)
AMHARIC [AMH] (Ethiopia)
ARGOBBA [AGJ] (Ethiopia)
GURAGE, EAST [GRE] (Ethiopia)
HARARI [HAR] (Ethiopia)
MESMES [MYS] (Ethiopia)
ZAY [ZWA] (Ethiopia)
South Arabian (6)
BATHARI [BHE] (Oman)
HARSUSI [HSS] (Oman)
HOBYOT [HOH] (Oman)
JIBBALI [SHV] (Oman)
MEHRI [MHR] (Oman)
SOQOTRI [SQT] (Yemen)
Unclassified (1)
BIRALE [BXE] (Ethiopia)


An interesting cross section of the migrations of ancient tribes, this.

Excerpted from here.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 01:54 PM

Perhaps Yiddish should be included in that list as well, since it's got significant Hebrew elements, alongside the German etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Who came first, the Arab or the Jew?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jun 07 - 02:11 PM

Slag, the way I've heard people sing it is, "and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known".

You could interpret it this way: Every person experiences his or her own joy in a totally unique and personal way. Therefore, no one can ever know exactly what that is like for any person other than themselves. Everybody's experience of it stands alone.

It doesn't imply to me that no one else can HAVE the same experience...just that their perception of it would be unique.


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