our dreadful education level

Subject: our dreadful education level
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:48 AM

"Supposed to of", "could of", "should of" and more. They are over the Net like a rash. Is this a peculiarly Brit thing? And what the hell is happening to education when 96%+ are passing their GCSE but coming out of our schools basically illiterate. Try reading some of the more popular sites, ie football clubs for instance and the sheer lack of spelling, punctuation and correct usage is deeply depressing. My parents were poor working class who left school at thirteen and fourteen respectively, but both could write and spell correctly and were avid readers. What is the point of all these qualifications if they provide employers with no levels of judgement as to the abilities of applicants for jobs.
As an ex-teacher it makes me ashamed of the obvious lack of dedication in the profession today. Have we sunk so low that teachers just pick up the cheque and shrug their shoulders?

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:48 AM

Damn, forget to make this bs..sorry. Please move.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:01 AM

What service!

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:40 AM

"Is this a peculiarly Brit thing?"

I live in the US, and ignorance seems fashionable these days. Errors don't bother me in a forum where I mainly try to understand what a person's saying. They bother me when they're portrayed as status quo by role models and those such as journalists, who are supposed to know how to write.

The internet provides an opportunity for people to communicate in writing who, in past centuries, wouldn't have tried. Their illiteracy would have manifested in an audible ways. I can get past the lack of spelling and punctuation competence to communicate with people. An inadequate education in schools should be inexcusable. We don't pay our teachers very much over here, though, and we have this "No child left behind" thing. What it means is all kids should get just enough education to 'get by'. The standard gets lowered, and the kids who could soar are left to jump off the cliff on their own.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:55 AM

You will get the worst of the worst if you go to sites dedicated to association football. "Sick as a parrot".

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: alanabit
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:57 AM

Not muuch people gets learned proper like what I was these days...

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Becca72
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:00 AM

When I was in school my particular city required students to get a 75 or better to "pass". We were amoung maybe 4 or 5 communities in the state that had that high a standard. Most of the others required a 70 or some even a 65 to be considered passing. Well the state decided that all the schools needed to be equal (after I'd graduated) and they leveled everyone off...to the lower expectations. Now the whole state requires a 70 to pass. I often ask why they didn't choose to raise everyone else up to the higher requirements and no one can provide an answer other than "it wouldn't be fair to all students". So we're allowing our children to get more stupid.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: kendall
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:00 AM

The ignorance goes right to the top. Trickle down?

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:09 AM

Yes, kendall, but Wordy's in the UK. I believe our President is considerably less literate than their Prime Minister. I'm not talking about politics or sense here, but Mr. Blair doesn't seem to have a problem with the English language.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:31 AM

Well, how cn U xpect yng pple to rite ok when they do most of it with there thmbs in txt msgs.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM

Jeri is right, of course; people who, in former years, would never have used the written language much are now typing in stream of conciousness, using the inadequate education and "why should I care"? attitudes they use in other matters.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Grab
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:56 AM

And things are obviously worse now than they were ages back, are they..?

I was served in Tescos the other day by a woman in her 50s. The till did all the sums for how much things cost, she entered the note value I gave her, and the till told her how much the change was. All she had to do was extract coins to the appropriate value. It took her ages to work it out, doing something that your typical primary school kid should be able to do. See also the photos of greengrocers' stalls marked "Potato's" and similar, of which "That's Life" always had plenty of photos back in the 80s. As far as I can see, there's no Golden Age when kids came out of school having been taught "properly".

Graham.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:06 AM

I find "could of" mildly annoying, but many idiomatic expressions developed similarly, and I think it's just language in action. And read any 17th or 18th century writing to come up with many examples of "tho'", "yr obdt servt" and suchlike.

Far worse is the common ignorance of history, geography and science- which affects all age groups.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Scoville
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:17 AM

"Seperate", "reason why", and misuse of apostrophes drive me nuts. Don't even get me started on all that online shorthand stuff--half the time I can't figure out what everyone is talking about.

I read an article for library school last semester and I swear that every other sentence started in "and" and ended in "of". I knew that it was supposed to be written in a 'conversational' style--it was not a formal journal article--but the grammar was so bad and the sentences so chopped-up I almost couldn't read it. I hardly have perfect grammar myself but I don't even talk as badly as this article was written. "Informal" shouldn't mean "ten-car pile-up of the English language".

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:46 PM

Relax. "No Child Left Behind" will fix everything.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Scoville
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:48 PM

Ee'll all end up equally illiterate.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: LilyFestre
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 04:49 PM

Semiphonemic: Writing the sounds one hears (often vowels are missing)

This type of writing is encouraged in beginners in many elementary schools in the US. The idea is to get the child writing, to get their thoughts on paper. They sound the words out and write what they hear. Many times this is also referred to as "Kid Writing." When the student has finished writing, the student reads what he/she has written to the teacher. The teacher then writes the correct spelling over any of the words that need correcting.

Bill's post about texting reminded me of this...sorry!

The No Child Left Behind is a nice thought, too bad it's incredibly unrealistic.

Michelle

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Scoville
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 05:09 PM

Aargh, that was "We'll all end up . . . "; or maybe we have already, if that's what I'm writing on my posts.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:29 PM

Can I also nominate the trailers for a well known US originated TV show "Laura Norder"?

"Oh why can't the English teach their children how to speak?"

It seems it applies across the atlantic as well.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:43 PM

I attended one of thowse schools wher one is tawt to speak correctly and I am certain that it took me from a lower working class family(I had won a scholarship) to a middle class profession. My academic ability served me well but I also had early training at my junior school in the mathematical tables...which were learned by heart by the whole class over relatively few lessons. We were also taught the basics of the English Language and given a huge amount of vocabulary to learn.......we were 'advantaged' in Junior school by the curriculum used in those days. NOWADAYS....a child cannot cope without a calculator....a computer.....whatever mod cons are available to their school...but when they leave school and try to get a job...they don't all have the help of the machines they were taught to use........and some cannot work it out for themselves using brain power and common sense...Sad EH?
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:51 PM

we were 'advantaged' in Junior school by the curriculum used in those days.
Couldn't have put it better. The present generation are disadvantaged all through the education process. Now teachers are saying it's uncool to be clever. It always was! But the clever ones were sorted out and given a chance to reach their full potential.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:51 PM

"So we're allowing our children to get more stupid."

There has never been a corelation shown between school marks and intelligence. Quite the reverse, actually. When Howard Gardner's excellent work on Multiple Intelligences showed that only a narrow group of students--those who were 'adapted already' to traditional learning methods (chalk/talk; visual/talk, etc)--excelled in schools.

There are more students who would learn better and more via non-traditional methods than presently learn via established methods.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 08:31 PM

Visual presentation of Gardner's work--not complete by any means--is available at a google of

multiple intelligences

It is the middle chart at the top of the google page.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 11:01 PM

"Damn, forget to make this bs..sorry"

Damn, forget to make this in the wong, thwead.

HuH

sIx

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Gurney
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 12:09 AM

The problem seems to be English-speaker wide, from my own observation.
Wordy's examples at the start are just corruptions of "Should HAVE" and derived from the contraction 'should've', and if you can't spell, or if you rely on Spellcheck, then pratfalls are likely. The point about texting seems valid. My own school (-the one I attended, not the one I teach in. I don't) taught me how to construct a letter of various types, formal, casual, etc, but my son has no idea, although he received good marks in English, here in NZ.
The web is, I think, a different situation. It seems to me mostly an extension of a conversation, and I find myself taking a casual attitude to the other example of beginning a sentence with 'And', such as "I told him so. And where he could put it....." just as I would in conversation, as an additional thought struck me.

If I was assembling an entry for Wikipaedia I would take a different view.
A lovely example. Here many greengrocers are Chinese, and they, through their signs, have introduced the idea that 'Choice!' means good!.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: harpmolly
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 12:51 AM

I admit that I tend to take a rather casual tone in my email/Internet communication, but I have limits. I was recently browsing the message board for one of my favorite literary trilogies, Philip Pullman's "His Dark Materials", which is techinically Young Adult fiction (though I find it more intelligently written than about 90% of anything I've read recently). Anyway, there was a lot of "txtitis" going on, but it wasn't too bad--I guess anyone literary enough to get sucked into Philip Pullman at a young age can't help but absorb something.

Then, later, I (for some UNGODLY reason) found myself reading a Gilmore Girls message board. Yes, I admit it, I am a GG junkie (for Brit readers, it's an hour-long comedy/drama about a mother and daughter which I find incredibly funny and endearing). Anyway, LARGE teen fan base, and my God, I don't think I saw two vowels within a paragraph on the entire page.

I blame Noah Webster, frankly. It started with taking the "u" out of colour and honour, and just look where we've ended up! Dmn u, N. Wbstr!!!!!!!

OK, /rant off. ;)

Molly

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:13 AM

G'day Gurney,

"A lovely example. Here many greengrocers are Chinese, and they, through their signs, have introduced the idea that 'Choice!' means good!."

Here's the first paragraph under choice, a in the OED (Oxford English Dictionary):

1. a. Worthy of being chosen, select, exquisite, of picked quality, of special excellence.
   1340–70 Alex. & Dind. 727 Him a chalis ful chois wiþ good chere bringen. c1350 Will. Palerne 400 William þat choys child in to his chaumber ledde. c1400 Destr. Troy 490 The Knightes+Intill a chaumber full choise chosen þere way. c1555 Harpsfield Divorce Hen. VIII (1878) 33 Among the select and choise people of God. 1597 Hooker Eccl. Pol. v. lxii. §8 The one with the choicest wits, the other with the multitude. 1602 Warner Alb. Eng. xii. lxxiv. (1612) 308 A Choyser is not here. 1642 Fuller Holy & Prof. St. iv. xiii. 302 In discourse her words are rather fit then fine, very choice and yet not chosen. 1738 Pope Hor. Sat. ii. vi. 126 In a sea of folly toss'd, My choicest Hours of Life are lost. 1826 Disraeli Viv. Grey vi. i. 274 The secretary had+given a choice toast, sung a choice song.

Odd ... I don't see many "Chinese greengrocers" cited here!

regard(les)s,

Bob

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 04:28 AM

The "poor grammar" and "poor spelling" criticism is not new. Every generation of employers over the past 100 years have raised the same issue!

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:23 PM

"Here many greengrocers are Chinese, and they, through their signs, have introduced the idea that 'Choice!' means good!. Gurney

As Bob Bolton demonstrated, 'choice' to mean something special has been around a long time, even in common usage. Remember that movie where Humphrey Bogart (I think. Or maybe Spencer Tracy?) says about Katherine Hepburn (I think) that there 'isn't much meat on her bones but what there is is choice"?

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Mr Fox
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 07:42 AM

Prolly. Prolly drives me UP THE BLEEDIN' WALL!!

It's probably, you dick 'ed. PROBABLY. THERE ARE B's IN IT. TWO EFFIN' B's.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: GUEST,Tabster
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:16 AM

When I'm not gigging I work as a supply teacher in primary schools. I haven't yet come across a single school where teachers have given up on teaching grammatical English and correct spelling (and my experience covers inner London as well as Cardiff, Newport and more rural schools) and of course the various SATS tests have encouraged teachers to insist on punctuation, capital letters and so on. It's extraordinary to me to see how many children *still* ignore the teaching points that the teachers are attempting to convey, almost wilfully at times! More shocking, though, was the school year where I worked with Year 11 pupils in a referral unit, teaching GCSE level English (for US readers that's 16 year old pupils at first national exam level). I was presented with almost unreadable essays which I was told by other teachers would still qualify for pass grades, even though the overall level of literacy was below standards expected from Year 6 pupils.
However, I've been doing some temp office work this summer and have been in legal offices and building development offices and have been itching to find my red pen to highlight the grammatical and spelling mistakes on work I've been expected to type out - to say nothing of wanting to re-phrase unbelievably badly written letters.
It's not just the fault of the schools, is it? Somewhere along the line a lot of people have decided they don't much care about eloquent language!

Anne

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 08:40 AM

As previously noted, it really isn't anything new. I had a professional-level employee once whose job included writing letters to job applicants explaining why they hadn't been selected for positions - and then, quite often, rewriting the letter for our facility director's signature explaining the same thing to the individual's congressman. She couldn't put three coherent sentences together to save her life! The director, who read everything given to her for signature, began correcting her material with a red marker and returning it to me. When confronted, my employee said, "of course I know how to write and spell...I do have a college degree, you know!" Luckily, she was sure that she should have had my job and, after her discrimination complaint was thrown out, soon went elsewhere.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 09:45 AM

well....just last night I heard a commentator on a documentary refer to a historical group as the "epitome" of military organization...

that's right - "ep-i-tome"

I hope he never has to read some bit about a 'therapist'.

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 03:48 AM

as a F.E lecturer I find that multiplication tables are not learnt

ask what 7 times 7 is and you can get anything from 14 to 41!

Ray

Subject: RE: our dreadful education level
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Aug 06 - 11:08 AM

nothing ABOVE 41?