Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)

Subject: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM

What I want to know is: is this just me?

I never really enjoy playing gigs. I never feel like I'm doing myself justice or playing as well as I do at rehearsals, and it feels as though I'm just muddling through with my eyes shut. It's a case of just getting through the numbers without accident, and relying on the work I've put in at rehearsal. I find it really hard to invest my performance with meaning and emotion.

And yet somehow this doesn't seem to matter. Sometimes even when I've felt as though I could have texted in my performance, I've had people tell me they were really moved by it.

Consequently I can't tell whether a gig is going well or not, because it always feels like it's going really badly until afterwards. I can only tell whether it was any good retrospectively, by the number of people who come up and congratulate us and what they say. I can't even seem to tell from applause levels most of the time, as it tends to always sound about the same to me.

How do you actually gauge whether you're any good? And is it actually possible to have a performance where you feel you're aceing the whole thing as you go along?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:48 PM

I understand how you feel. We've had gigs that I thought were less than perfect that the audience have reaaly enjoyed - at least that's what they say. I'd encourage you to tape or ever videotape a performance sometime. I noticed that I rarely smiled and looked rather pissed off as we performed - when actually I was just trying to concentrate.

Whenever possible - look like you are having fun. Your audience will too.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rockhen
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:55 PM

I think it is maybe a personal thing, but I always feel that I could have done better. I sometimes feel that something has gone really well and that is usually when I have felt more confident and almost forgotten that I am actually performing to others. I think all performers seem to find the experience different.
It is interesting to listen to different people say how they conquer nerves. I find if I shut my eyes I feel less intimidated by the idea of an audience...however...i think i look a bit of a pratt when I do that so try not to!
One think I have found helpful, is to have some mates who also perform, who will look for good points in your performance...as well as those that can be improved. I know, when I am feeling more confident, I sing and play much better. I think it is good to focus mainly on what is strong in your performance but still try to alter or improve those aspects that need work.
Is it possible to get to a point where you feel your performance is perfect? I rather hope not. I am only performing at a very amateur level but I hope to always look to add something extra to what I do. Sometimes, you need to find the right audience for your type of music, too. You could perform the most beautiful set of country ballads, with near perfect execution, but if your audience is wanting the Irish Rover to jump up and down and sing along, to...you won't be that well received.
Good luck with your performing!...I find it very scary but sort of satisfying, most of the time. If others don't use your 'spot' to go to the loo/have a fag/got outside and ring their great aunty Flo up...you probably aren't doing that badly! :-)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rockhen
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 07:59 PM

Just noticed the 2nd post in this thread, which crossed with mine...I agree re looking like you are having fun...it is difficult when you are concentrating hard, to relax and do just that, but it really does look loads better...and...if you make a mistake act, grin in an endearing way rather than looking worried and apologetic...not that any of us make mistakes...but you know....one of those 'jazz chords' that pops into a song sometimes?!!!!!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 08:09 PM

I LOVE gigging, and LOVE audiences...make me perform better
I love playing with my audiences and am not that fond of sessions/jaming for that reason.

And bear in mind that if you close your eyes all the time, that limits the contact you have with your audience. Better to pick one person to play to, IMO

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Aug 06 - 09:02 PM

For ME, I can't agree with that "one person" approach.

I am a solo singing act, and I make a point of looking around, making eye-and-smile contact with people in the audience, smiles appropriate to the context of the song, most of which are funny.

Even if the audience is too large, or the lighting is wrong, to ACTUALLY meet the customer's eye, I will look at different spots just as if I were meeting the eye, exchanging grins, etc. In any line of a song, I'm likely to "look at" two spots in the audience.

If I can see the reactions of the listeners, I can tell whether I'm coming across with the song, because I get the reactions in their faces.


Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rockhen
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:21 AM

It is helpful to hear how others get the best performance out of themselves...I really liked the suggestions made by Dave and I think I do try to do that, unconsciously, anyway, because when I read it, I thought, oh why didn't I put it like that? I think you use strategies without even realising a lot of the time.
I read Sorcha's "Better to pick one person to play to, IMO " more in the vein of, engage with your audience...so ...more treat everyone you look at, as though you are just singing/playing for them rather choosing one person to sing your song to and sticking with that. More like, trying to make your performace, personal, as though you actually know your audience. As though playing to a group of friends, perhaps? Much the same as Dave said, really.
I think you learn by your own mistakes as much as anything. The more you perform, the easier it gets I think.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: stallion
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:46 AM

Oh dear, I shall expose myself (no not that way!) I don't get at all nervous now, comfortable with the material, comfortable with the "boys", I do glow pink when I hit bum notes but i try not to worry about it, I can only think of one occasion this year when I didn't hit a bum note during a set, so I had a permanant rosy glow! and only the real pedants notice anyway, by and large people don't notice. One of the secrets of performing is getting eye contact with as much of the audience as possible, keep scanning and smiling, act confident that way you will be forgiven the odd indescretion. Our rehersals are spent sitting in someones kitchen, drinking wine, munching nibbles, discussing arrangements, and some times singing a song all the way through and sometimes line by line and when we perform we just carry that informal atmosphere with us. It hasn't always been like that, i suppose it is an age thing.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:18 AM

Hm. It's difficult.

The sort of material we're doing isn't really smile and joke with the audience stuff - it's mostly quite dark, strange, sad, introspective stuff. I have issues about talking to the audience, I'll do it if I'm just doing a few informal numbers on my own, but if it's a proper set I feel I'd be breaking the mood - my own and theirs - if I did. I don't know if there's a way round this.

Starting this thread was partly reaction to a slot I did at an open mike last night where I got nervous and had trouble controlling my voice. We got asked to do another gig on the strength of it today, so it can't have been that bad, but this is typical really!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:56 AM

possibly you are related to somebody famous, and the music is quite as bad as you think, but people are just trying to ingratiate themselves in the hope of being a friend of someone who gets played on the Mike Harding show, as I am sure you will be - by the sound of it.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: muppitz
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:59 AM

I played a festival a few weeks ago and did a "Meet the artist" session on the Saturday morning which I thought went terrible until a woman came to me afterwards and said, "I really enjoyed that, Thank You".
I played a spot in a concert Saturday evening and I really enjoyed it, I thought it went well and afterwards there were a few who told me it was a good performance.
Sometimes, it just feels right.

muppitz x

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:01 AM

"is this just me?

I never really enjoy playing gigs."

Must be you... cause it sure ain't me.... I LOVE gigs!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,BRUCE BAILLIE
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:04 AM

...I've noticed this phenomena in people before, it very often goes that the better you are, the more insecure you are, despite the fact your performance sounds wonderful to everyone else, to you it sounds like shite, you know where you fluffed that note, you notice where you sang slightly off key and because you are good at what you do you know you could've done it better! But remember, most of the audience don't know where you played the bum note/sang off key or whatever cos they were sat there just enjoying the whole performance and very possibly are nowhere near as picky as you.
SO DON'T GET DEPRESSED ABOUT IT - CEASE THE NAVAL GAZING AND YOU MIGHT ENJOY IT MORE!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Scoville
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:14 AM

Depends on the gig. I haven't done this in a few years, but it always seemed like a lot of it depended on the audience and on what I was expected to play. I used to get horrible--HORRIBLE--stage fright but once I got over the worst of that, of course, things improved considerably.

Beyond that, it always spoiled it if the audience turned out to be expecting something different from what we were prepared to play--one audience got quite upset because we didn't do Irish music (we were an old-time string band; we knew a little Irish music but it wasn't our focus and we didn't have anyting rehearsed well enough to play in public). Another was expecting us to sound like Nickel Creek.

On the other hand, we played weddings, etc., where people really just wanted to dance and as long as we kept playing anything at all, they were happy. We were happy.

We got hired for a Christmas outdoor pageant thing once and were all dreading the evening because none of us really knew or liked Christmas music much (but we were getting a free meal and $100 apiece). We practiced Christmas music until we couldn't stand it any more. When we got there, we got through two and a half bars of "Jingle Bells" and collectively forgot everything. Our leader shrugged and told us to start playing "Liza Jane" instead. The audience never said anything. I'm not sure they even noticed the switch and we had a much better time.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:20 AM

Well, I try to make contact with as many folks as possible too. The 'one person' comment was intended for a nervous person.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:24 AM

There are two aspects to a musical performance - what the music is and how well it's performed. Keep in mind that as a traditional musician, you can play music which your audience can't get anywhere else. If the music is interesting and unusual, it doesn't matter if it's perfectly performed.

Once I was playing early music for an alumnae group with my friend the harper. At one point, an audience member said, "I can't wait to hear the piece from the twelfth century!" Her comment made me realize how important is the kind of music on offer.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:48 AM

"If the music is interesting and unusual, it doesn't matter if it's perfectly performed"

But if the music ISN'T interesting, it won't matter how perfectly it's performed....

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:03 PM

Hey this is a great thread.
I think performing is horrible too.
I never feel I did all right and when people say nice things afterwards I feel that they are just being kind.
Sometimes it would be nice to have a band to play in so you can at least get to talk over the gig and problems etc with someone in the same position, I was in a band for a week or so but then one of the others decided they would rather stick to doing their own thing and I was dumped so never will get to find out if its better to have a post gig party or whatever sigh!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:05 PM

"I think performing is horrible too"

Then why do you do it?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:21 PM

Because he is Twangy.

Tim is going to be a resident performer at my club Clinton,unless he chnages his mind. I can tell you that he did a very good job of it two weeks ago as his first time. The trouble is, Tim doesn't beleive me. He wouldn't have been asked to be a resident, if he wasn't capable. I have also had a lot of good comments about him, from other people who are performers.
You need to learn to trust the judgement and comments from people who don't offer praise lightly Tim.
For some reason, your self esteem seems to be a bit low Tim. We need to get that up and buzzing.

Les

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rockhen
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:23 PM

I think a lot of people think performing is a nervewracking experience the first few times...that doesn't mean that it isn't worth persevering a while, if you have enough faith in your music and can get over the worst of the nerves...and can still find people to listen to you...
Although, sometimes it can be a bit offputting when they all wear their ipods and turn the volume up...sigh...

joke :-)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:25 PM

I better take my cotton wool out in future Rockhen :-)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rockhen
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:26 PM

Hey Villan, (didn't see your post, before I posted mine,)...don't mention the 'b' word....you know it frightens you when WWW do 'that' song....what do you mean, you don't know what I am talking about?
Hmmmmmm!
OOOps sorry, didn't mean to hijack thread. Is an interesting one, thanks.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rockhen
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:28 PM

Hey Villan...quit sneaking those posts in...you did it again! :-)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:30 PM

Is that the "Load of B*******"" one then Rockhen - ROTFLMAO :-)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rockhen
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:32 PM

Oh bless.....I'll explain on Friday, Villan, or maybe Mrs Twangy could if you want to see her blush...oooohh I am mean!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:35 PM

I am sure it won't make me blush Rockhen.

Now lets get back to gigs and being good, cause we are not at the moment :-)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:37 PM

I'm with Clinton on this....if you hate performing, why the hell do you do it????? PS....ya outta always stick around for a bit and chat with your audience. Might get some new bookings out of that too!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:51 PM

"I can tell you that he did a very good job of it two weeks ago as his first time. The trouble is, Tim doesn't beleive me."

I know a guy like that too.... I used to think it was low self-esteem.... eventually I came to see it more that he's just an attention whore.... NEEDS people to be constantly telling him he's great, so that he can downplay it, so even more people will tell him.

I hope that Tim isn't the same.....

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 01:57 PM

A friend once told me "success is the combination preparation and opportunity"

Another friend said: "99% of the audience is AMAZED at your ability to make a clean C chord."

A third friend said: "Be yourself...with polish."

Prepare relentlessly, perform relaxed and you'll be good no matter what anyone thinks...even you.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 02:05 PM

>>I hope that Tim isn't the same..... <<

Blimey Clinton, I think you may have hit it on the head with Twangy. :-)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 03:53 PM

I always do stick around and talk to the audience - that's the enjoyable bit, and does tend to lead to more bookings. Having said that, after the best gig we've yet done, I found it more trying than anything. I came off stage and just wanted to collapse in a heap, and couldn't move for people coming up and babbling at me. I found the reaction quite strange and overwhelming, and a bit intimidating. It was how I'd always dreamed it would be - but it didn't make me happy.

I've been going for about a year now as a full-on performer (as opposed to bit part player in someone else's band). The nerves are getting easier but yes I do sometimes wonder why I'm doing it if it's not actually that enjoyable. I feel absolutely compelled to, but why?

I suppose love of music for one thing (I get a big kick from the way we sound in rehearsals sometimes), and I do secretly enjoy the fact that people are always quite impressed that I'm a musician.

On the point of getting a well-informed friend to give you a second opinion, this does work for me, but I do find that they tend to want to give me advice, which I find really off-putting.

God I must sound like a curmudgeonly old bag...

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:06 PM

The first time I ever actually performed in front of an audience was at a hospital in Denver. Before that, I had sung at parties and songfests, but never in a "me up here and the audience down there" situation. I expected maybe a couple dozen people at most, but when I walked into the hospital dining room where I was to perform, there were about 250.patients and staff waiting to hear me. I was bloody petrified! When I started off, my hands were shaking so badly that I had to abandon my carefully worked out guitar accompaniment and simply thumb-strum. But when I finished the song, they burst into applause. It suddenly occurred to me that they weren't going to lynch me after all! By the time I was into my third song, I was having fun!

That was something of a turning point. It went over well with the audience, and after the initial nervousness, I enjoyed the experience so much that I gave serious consideration to taking it up as a career, which I soon did, with some measure of success. I never got rich and famous, but I became fairly well-known locally and I made a halfway decent, if not lavish, living at it.

Although my repertoire consists almost entirely of traditional songs, I don't style myself as a "folk singer" as much as a performer or entertainer (Richard Dyer-Bennet didn't consider himself to be a folk singer;   he billed himself as "The Twentieth Century Minstrel."). And as a performer, I feel that if an audience is going to pay good money to hear me, I'd better give them their money's worth, or I won't be performing for long. That means that I practice and prepare for performances.

I haven't totally lost my nervousness before a performance, but it has lost its negative aspect and morphed into my being generally keyed-up and eager to get started. How much the nervousness predominates over the eagerness seems to be directly proportional to how well practiced and prepared I am. I can wing it, but I much prefer to know what the heck I'm doing before I go on.

My sister Pat was a world-class figure skater back in the Fifties. She won two Pacific Coast Championships and one National Championship, and she skated in the World Figure Skating Championships in Vienna (in 1955, if I remember correctly) where she placed seventh behind skaters like Tenley Albright and Carol Heiss. Anyway, my baby sister gave me a piece of advice that I heeded, and it has served me well. She said, "Nothing is going to go exactly as you planned. You can count on something going wrong when you least expect it, and you have to be able to compensate for it. You need to be about 30% better than you think you will need to be to do as well as you should."

With me, that would be a string that refuses to stay in tune, or my right hand fingernails are a little too long or short, or I develop a tickle in my throat that I have to sing over so I won't burst into a coughing fit in the middle of the third verse. . . .   You've all been there, I know. That translates into practice and preparation.   

But as far as I'm concerned, there are darned few experiences in life that can compete with delivering a good performance, getting a big round of applause when you finish—and then getting paid for it! I love it!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:38 PM

I know some of those junkies too. Sad,really. I enjoy it all! We are a pretty laid back bunch tho.

95% of the people won't know you made a mistake and less than 1% of the rest will care.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 04:44 PM

Well Got nagged into doing it in the first place and after this year I aint planning on doing it anymore.
I dont get any enjoyment out of it and it takes up a lot of time and energy .
I dont mind helping out by filling in if the local (excellent) folk club has a spot that needs filling in an emergency,but apart from that it causes nothing but trouble and arguements.
I was much happier two years ago when I had only written a couple of songs and only played them at home for the wife.
As for being called names by any one on here well that is about the level I am coming to expect from the self congratulatory self obsesed second raters that would be great if they had the tallent to match their high opinions of themselves
cheers

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:23 PM

No sweat, Tim. It does take up a lot of time and energy, especially if you're going to be doing in professionally, and if you really don't enjoy it, don't let anyone talk you into it (Sorry, Villan). That's sort of like your dad insisting that you go into the family business when you'd a helluva lot rather run off and join the circus. I love performing, but I have had jobs that I really didn't like. Telephone sales once. And if I had to do that for the rest of my life, I'd rather just stick my head in a microwave oven. Much quicker. Life is too short to get stuck doing things you don't want to do.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with limiting your activities to getting together with friends to swap songs and jam. A great musical outlet, and I know a lot of people, good musicians, who stick to that, don't go out and perform before audiences, and really don't want to.

Such folks make knowledgeable audiences for show-offs like me.

Do your own thing!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:34 PM

"You need to be about 30% better than you think you will need to be to do as well as you should."

That's really good advice.

On reflection I think a lot of what I'm struggling with is those extraneous things, like starting a number, realising your instrument isn't quite in tune and you've got a whole song to get through like that. Or like a talkative audience. It's things like that that make a gig trying.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM

I love gigging. To me performing in front of an audience (big or small) is a real hoot. I seldom rehearse, but knowing I've got a gig coming up will make me knuckle down and practice. When I perform I routinely miss a guitar chord now and then and have even been known to forget some of my own lyrics, yet my audience always seems to enjoy themselves.

I have a great deal of fun when I perform. This seems to transfer to the audience during my show and invariably they come up to me afterwards and tell me how much fun it was listening to me sing. I know its difficult for new performers to feel comfortable on stage, but I hope each of you will keep trying and keep improving and learn to have fun at your performances. You will find enormous gratification.

Mike

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM

And if your instrument is a tad out of tune, learn to 'patter' while you re tune. There are some Masters out there to learn from...Seamus K, John McCutcheon, etc.....

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Girl Friday
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:52 PM

I am half of a duo called "Tone Deaf Leopard"
We have been playing together for just over a year. We know we're nothing special, but we write funny stuff which seems to go down well all over the place. We have just started doing gigs, and love it.We have a website, and a mudcat thread.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Girl Friday
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:54 PM

Blue clicky didn't work - our URL is http://www.tonedeafleopard.bracehost.com

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:12 PM

We have done more than 10,000 programs in schools and we have gone all the way from sheer terror through confidence and enjoyment to boredom. Here's our theory:

At first, we were scared that we might do something wrong like messing up the words or chords, playing out of tune or falling off the stage. After a sufficient number of performances, we had actually done everything we could think of that could go wrong. We were never struck by lightning, we never had anything thrown at us, and we were never swallowed up by a suddenly appearing hole in the earth. In fact, nothing bad happened to us. In fact, as pointed out above, most of our screw ups weren't even noticed by anyone except us.

When we finally realized that, performing became fun.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:55 PM

Burl Ives had pretty much retired from acting and performing and was living in Anacortes, Washington, a small city about ninety miles north of Seattle. I didn't know at the time, or I would have made the trip north, but he did a concert at a local theater or community hall, and fortunately it was videotaped and the tape played on my local PBS affiliate, KCTS Channel 9, otherwise I would have missed it entirely.

Ives eschewed his later fluff like "Mr. In-Bstween" and "Little Bitty Tear" and did a program of the songs that he did on his old Decca records and became best known for early on—traditional songs. "Big Daddy" was in his eighties, but despite the fact that he was ailing, he was sounding pretty darned good, his guitar accompaniments simple and straightforward as usual, and his voice as high and clear as it ever was.

When he first came on stage to a round of applause and started into his first song, it was noticeable that his guitar was out of tune. He winced a bit, but kept right on going and finished the song. He briefly acknowledged the applause that followed the song, then frowned at his guitar. He played a chord, which sounded a bit sour, looked at his audience and raised his eyebrows. Then he set about spending about a minute and a half chasing down and correcting the errant strings. No jokes or patter. The audience waited patiently while he just set about correcting the problem. Then he played a couple more chords and the guitar sounded fine. He said, "There. That's better." The audience applauded again. He nodded and smiled, and launched into his next song.

These things happen. No big deal. The whole concert, including the minor glitch at the beginning and the way the Old Pro handled it like an old pro, was Burl Ives at his best.

I found out about the broadcast of the concert at the last minute, and I wish I wish I wish I'd had the presence of mind to shove a tape into my VCR!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Aug 06 - 10:21 PM

I'll make you a deal TimTheTwangler... you write 'em.... I'll perform 'em

I HATE songwriting, mostly because I'm crap at it and all it does is frustrate me

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:07 AM

Where are you and what sort of stuff do you do?
Do you play finger style?
Do you play folk clubs,pubs,theatres?
I would like to try a collaboration with someone .
I am in the uk,maybe if we are similar area we could try something out?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:48 AM

I think that the cogent question should be, "Why does our shakey Guest perform, at all?". We can assume he doesn't do it for his livelihood, although I have known more than a few professionals who are prone to stage fright (some of the names would astound you).
I suppose he does it as an avocation and, I suspect, he puts himself through these grueling self examinations, for whatever fun he gets out of it. It is a damned shame that he is having trouble accepting the very acceptance he seeks. I went through years of nerve racking, pre-performance panic and after-curtain meltdown before I figured out that the audience knew more about what was good than I did. So, I stopped performing for myself (Playing what I wanted to hear) and started playing for them. If they want a polka, they get a polka. I know quite a few. I know that not everyone goes into performing for the same reason. Many want to express themselves, to perfect their craft, or for recognition. It may well be that Guest fits into one of those catagories (my guess is number one).
Life got easier for me when I realised that my reason was the opportunity for communication. I discovered that, if you are wearing a guitar or a banjo and a hat, you can walk right up to people and start talking and singing and they don't call the cops, they sing with you. Then, I found out you can do the same thing from a stage. Proximity helps so I try to get the audience as close as possible.
My style might not fit Guest's needs but it has made the second half of my career a whole lot easier than the first. I have been a full time folksinger for almost fifty years, so I have experienced many of the growing pains and, if I had one thing to tell Guest, it would be to talk to your audience and listen to your audience. You will feel more at ease and you will be more able to trust their judgement.

                         Mike

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 02:13 AM

The main thing I suggest to people while performing, is, whatever you do, just keep going, (don't stop unless the fire alarm goes off) and if you make a mistake, DON'T APOLOGIZE. It will just drag your energy down and draw the attention of the 96% of the audience (as noted by others) who didn't notice anything.

W-O

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,GS
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 03:06 AM

Performance motivation....conditions....health.....confidence on the day...knowing your material....atmosphere of the place...shall I go on? There are so many variables... If you don't like doing it..don't do it. If you do like doing it, get on with it and do it your way within the borders of what the 'constrictions' allow.
20+ yrs ago I was a confident Folk singer...due to reasons I won't go into I left the Folk scene for 18 yrs... I have come back to Folk singing and started songwriting but am finding the singing difficult as my voice is not what it used to be and my confidence has consequently lessened. I still have a go at my local clubs now and again and I sing amongst friends but have put my own limits on myself.
I believe we should do what we are comfortable with IF we want to do it at all.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 03:09 AM

Willie O
As a club organiser,I couldn't agree with you more.
I have a lot of respect for all performers who get up there and do it. However there is nothing more pleasing than to see somebody who is obviously struggling, hang on in and complete there spot, instead of collapsing altogether and apologising or making excuses whch is just about the worst thing to do.

One thing I have realised is that folk audience are very forgiving and it is heartwrenching to see a performer having a bad night.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 03:11 AM

Mike
Have you forgotten how to get you cookie back, or is it early morning cobwebs.
Cheers
les

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 03:30 AM

well i don't like my goodwill as an audience member being abused. if you go to UK folk clubs, you know the sort of thing -

I only heard (wrote) this song(tune) yesterday and I don't really know it......

I always forget the words (and tune) of this one......

I don't play my guitar any more. the strings haven't ben changed for about ten years......

This set of Uillean pipes that I ordered when I got pissed, when I was on holiday in Ireland last month has just arrived and so heres three slip jigs and a hornpipe....

I've been trying to learn the whistle.....

Of course everybody makes mistakes, that's not the issue. I just don't see myself as some form of 'care in the community' for people who entertain fantasies about being a musician, but can't be arsed to practice.

Mind you, there are some people who really don't get it. I remember this guitar pupil once. he turned up with three really expensive guitars - every one really fabulous, and also he had all these expensive editions of sheet music - you know the sort of thing - Eric Clapton's greatest hits, The Beatles Songs - must have been about 30 of these books.

So I said , great what do you want to learn? and he said Layla

So I said, great lets go over the chords first. So we opened the book at the appropriate page and limped through Layla, and I noticed he was taking on average 10 seconds to change every first position chord.

so then he said, well what are we going to play next?
I said, well we could have a go at playing the chords to this song - so that they went with the words....
You mean we just go on playing the same thing....!

It was like saying 'socialised medicine' might be a good idea to an American. total outrage...!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rockhen
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:28 AM

Looking forward to hearing your set tonight at MRFC weelittledrummer!...I like the list of excuses you posted and although I found it funny, I agree that some people patronise their audience by making out that they haven't really gone to much trouble to sort the set out or practise. It can be quite insulting if someone says..."oh..what shall we play next?" in a really offhand way.....er...."oh shall we have a go at this one?" I think it is all part of the act for some performers but it can look as though they are saying....oh...this isn't one of our really important gigs so we will just do what we feel like at the time rather than giving it any thought.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 05:10 AM

"95% of the people won't know you made a mistake and less than 1% of the rest will care."

From the viewpoint of a dancer, when a display team makes a mistake my reaction is to be impressed if they recover well, and a little bit pleased with myself that I noticed.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:12 AM

Yes, Les, it is all too true. I have lost my cookie and I am unable to retrieve it or to, successfully, contact anyone to help me out. Out of common decency, I am avoiding cookie jokes like chips that pass in the night.
So, I will be guesting unless I am lucky enough to find the solution in a bottle, washed up on the shores of my e-mail ([e-mail])

                        Mike

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:26 AM

OK

At the top of this webpage you will see an option that says "Quick Links"
Click on the drop down icon to the right of that and select Login and then click on Go

Follow your nose from there.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 03:22 PM

Where are you and what sort of stuff do you do? Clinton Hammond... and I dig music.... google my name for more information

Do you play finger style? Like who? Don Ross, no.... but I occasionally fingerpick behind mellow-ish songs/ballads

Do you play folk clubs,pubs,theatres? I'll play anywhere/everywhere...

I would like to try a collaboration with someone.
I am in the uk,maybe if we are similar area we could try something out?
I am in Windsor, Ontario Canada... I don't know if my area is similar to yours, but we have people, and buildings and streets and cars.... same like most areas I've been to....

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:04 PM

So you never been to Lincolnshire then?
You are only allowed here if you have at least six fingers on each hand.
Gues you were just flapping the equivilant of your lips earlier so will forget about your suggestion.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: LilyFestre
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:31 PM

Hey Tim,

   I'm with you on this one, I much prefer playing at home to myself or family than performing so that's just what I do. I have played for others a few times in the last month of so, but it was of my own choosing, not something that was expected of me. As far as I'm concerned, the expectation of having to play kills all the joy for me, ALL OF IT.

And Clinton, I think the exact opposite of you. There are several performers I know who are "Attention Whores." There are even a few of them at Mudcat...go figure! LOL

Tim...play when you want. If you don't like doing gigs, then don't. Music is meant to be loved and enjoyed in whatever form makes you happy....if that means performing in front of a crowd, go for it...if that means playng in an open field to the sky, knock yourself out. Don't let anyone push you into something you don't feel in your heart is well suited for you. Enjoy the music you make in whatever way you want!

Michelle

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,Mike Miller (nee musicmic)
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:46 PM

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,Mike Miller
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:53 PM

HELP    HELP    HELP!!!!

Please e-mail me directly to tell me how to negotiate this insane recookieing process. I suspect an anti-semetic cabal made up of disgruntled Brits and disenfranchised red diaper babies.
Since I changed to peoplepc.com, folkies who think they're still under thirty won't talk to me.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:56 PM

Mike, post in the help forum. Joe will sort you

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:00 PM

"There are several performers I know who are "Attention Whores."
Every performer is to some degree... the worst ones are the ones who don't get enough attention ON stage, that they need constant reassuring OFF stage as well....

I have a phrase I call them.... the acronym is PitA....

"So you never been to Lincolnshire then?"
Nope....

" You are only allowed here if you..."
... enjoy microwaving with the door open?

"so will forget about your suggestion"
Your loss... hope you find someone to play your music if it's all so high and mighty....

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:39 PM

Nah will just carry on annoying the Mrs and family.
It isnt high and mighty just about life as I see it.
But it is quite good I am told.
If you can spare a minute out from your own ego you can pm me and we can swap mail addresses and can send you an mp3 to see if is the sort of thing you would play.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:56 PM

Lilyfestre
Hi i have tried the public performing bit for around two years ,same time as been having guitar lessons,I just never seem to get it right in front of people.
We have some great open mike venues with great sound and great audience/fellow performers.
I am constantly told am improving,or that I was good or have nice things said about songs/playing singing.
I could not have had a more supportive group of people around me.
My Mrs is acomplete angel,I have had the chance to play /practice with some fantastic musicians, at the end of the day I spend a lot of time feeling sick and aprehensive before playing anywhere.
I think that some of us just are not cut out to be in the spot light.
I am moody taciturn and stresssed,and then after the performance is done I cannot accept that I did any good at all.
Playing at home is fun,inspiration comes to write new stuff,and experiment with my playing singing etc.
My musical friends were very much pushing me when I needed it to have a go which I appreciate greatly ,but now I am just starting to see that as unwanted pressure to conform to what they see as the right thing to be doing and am beggining to resent it a bit.
Gonna try dropping out of this playing four or more times a week and see if can get some of my old enthusiasm back.
Sorry to go on I just wanted to keep Clinton going with enough material to take the piss out of while I am away at work LOL
Cheers and stay chilled and happy.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:09 PM

No ego at all on my part Twangler.. nor do I wish to take the piss.....


My email addy

[e-mail]

I'd LOVE to hear yer mp3s!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:16 PM

Good on you for giving it up if it's really making you unhappy.

At the end of the day I could not give it up at the moment because I think that although I'm struggling to get through the moments, the overall process of developing as a musician and performer, of challenging myself to do it and succeeding, is satisfying and rewarding.

And I could NOT go back to being a musician who no-one ever hears. If you want to be heard at all you have to get over nerves/lack of confidence. And if you're never heard, it almost seems pointless playing.

I also figure it's a learning process and this phase isn't necessarily going to last forever. I've only been fronting a band/doing solo stuff really for about six months. I'm hoping it's going to get better with experience.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: LilyFestre
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:22 PM

"IF you're never heard, it almost seems pointless playing."

See, I disagree with you on that point. I play to make MYSELF happy. I don't need to please anyone else with my music to make it enjoyable for ME. Maybe I'm completely selfish in that area, I don't know...I just know that playing for myself makes me happy. If I nail a tune when I am all alone in this old house or if my husband is here...it doesn't matter...the fact that I got the tune down is what makes me happy, not who hears it. I love the fact that there are MANY people who enjoy playing for others as I enjoy listening! :)

Michelle

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 07:35 PM

No, you're right, and I did get a lot of pleasure from playing all the years it was just me on my own at home. But I'd like people to know what I can do too - and it's a whole different process, it forces you to develop the music in a different way, and much further.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM

strangely enough, its the other way round for me.

I started getting ill a couple of years ago. I'm waiting to see a surgeon now to see if he can help me recover my health, but I can't gig professionally any more. just can't hump round guitars and PA's and late nights and travelling - well I just can't do it.

so I'm playing at home a lot more now. I'm working on technical stuff at home like home recording. (Why do they make those bloody instruction books for electronic equipment so hard to understand?)

I miss the whole thing. setting out to a gig. even the pleasure of the gig coming in over the phone, as an endorsement of what you chose to do in life. the way something sort of clicks in your mind, and you feel the audience enjoying what you do in the first few seconds, you think 'got them!'

what I would say Tim, is maybe you need to talk to somebody experienced in the business. you may be just banging on the wrong doors. there are a lot of avenues in this profession , and my mistake - and I think a lot of peoples - they think, this is what I do - take it or leave it. And some audiences will leave it - maybe you just have the wrong audience.

For years I wanted to be a folk club pro. I was a good enough singer. I could piss rings round most of the pro's musically. I was a creative songwriter, but I wasn't right for folk clubs. Couldn't conform to what they wanted - traditional folk music, as exalted by Colin Irwin and Karl Dallas and Folk Roots insulted my intelligence. Nobody in my family belonged to that tradition. Or anybody elses family, as far as I could see.

anyway for whatever the reasons, I left the folk clubs to it. found my audiences and found happiness as a performer. Maybe you need to do the same. its not an easy journey, but its worthwhile - you obviously have the performing bug inside you, and you're just trying to get it right. stick with it, but start looking round!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: stallion
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:40 AM

If it is any consolation I know of one performer, part of a nationally known, if not limited internationally known band, who throws up before every performance and it isn't bullimia, doesn't seem to hinder the performance.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rockhen
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:19 AM

Sorry for this long post!

Glad you didn't conform to fit in with a certain type of music, weelittledrummer. The few sets that I have heard from you, (I wish I had heard more,) have been refreshingly original and very enjoyable.
I write and co-write songs at an amateur level.I don't know whether my songs are particularly amazing musically, but a lot of people seem to quite enjoy them.
Over the last few years,I have had many many people tell me that I 'should' try writing in a certain style to fit in with what audiences want. As with all aspects of life, I have tried to take notice of the opinions that I felt were worthwhile, politely ignored those that I thought weren't and continued to go the way I thought was right for me. (Sorry, that sounds a bit high and mighty, but don't mean it that way...I really mean 'do your own thing!')
   I know my style of music is different to many and doesn't fit easily into a bracket. But I feel it is right for me and I enjoy it. Those I play with seem to be happy enough, too. I get nervous performing but I feel emotionally involved with my music. The odd time I have played all covers or a set of traditional tunes/songs to fit a certain request, it has felt more like a job, the performance is still enjoyable but it is not quite the same.
    Not everyone is the same, but for me, I enjoy playing gigs where I 'feel' something about the music I am doing.
   I think weelittledrummer is right that you should find your audience. There is usually one out there for you somewhere. It may be your aging (and slightly deaf) dog, it may be your mates at a party, others may be suited to a pub environment, folk club, blues club, stadium (!) etc...

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:13 AM

I have my audience,she sita and listens to all the mistakes and always finds something encouraging to say.
I think WLD has an audience at the Market Raisen Folk club
Luckily Villan has managed to make a folk club with a wider selection of artistes work.
I like my songs and yours (RH).
I have heard WLD a couple of times and genuinely enjoyed that he is not just another formula folky.
I have sat in the club and been bored to tears by some performers who tend to emphaise the traditional part of traditional music rather than the musical part.
Some of them are so far up them selves,and their own smugness at conforming to the tradition,(whatever that is) that they strangle all the life ,humour and sheer joi de vivre out of the material that they perform.
What villan allows to happen at his club that does not at a lot of others,is the variety of music that will ensure that the tradition of acoutic music will carry on.
GO to "Anonymous" folk club and see what happens if you insist on singing the same songs from the tradition,in the tradition according to the rules of folk music as set out by a bunch of pseudo left wing facists from the 60's revival.
It is boring!
I worry that if you go visit a club like that each time you go,there are the same old faces,the same old songs and tunes only less of then each time.
Will there come a day when the last surviving dinosaur sings a song they have found/rescued/discovered. and then closes the door on the way out to their own funeral?
Or will these musical archeologists run out of stuff to dig up?
So back to thread (almost)
What drives you to want to perform?
Is it that you think your singing /playing/song writing is only valid if you have other people to tell you so?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:34 AM

Market Rasen is a fairly unusual folk club. there may be a few others with such catholic tastes, but you won't find enough of them with enough fresh audiences to keep the creative juices flowing. also its an expensive business, and you need really (if you are actively working and giving it your all) to be making some money out of it to pay expenses. Sure Woody Guthrie did it with a crap guitar and a rudimentary technique, but its not compulsory to do it his way.

I think if you are any kind of artist - there is some sort of compulsion to communicate - even if its buried deep. Otherwise what you have is a neurosis rather than an artform.

don't worry about validity. its not the civil service. nobody is going to promote you to a grade 3 executive officer folk singer.

and look at the crap that is considered valid.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:44 AM

I am not Catholic Big Al LOL :-) Did you mean Atheist? :-)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:05 AM

lets just leave that neither of bow down before false Gods , Les.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM

Anyway enjoyed your set last night Al and got the same feeedback from audience. Thanks.

Back to the plot.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:18 AM

Well Big,can i call you Big?
Actualy WLD is quicker aint it?
I think we may be in dan ger of agreeing on some of the things you posted.
That does not very often happen to me and it is a weird feeling.
How did the song copetition go for you at Saltburn mate did yo manage to get there and have a go?
I know you are not a folk singer because you say so at your gigs.
I think that when yo and other original artistes appear at the MR"folk"C it adds so much to the evening and it is the additions to the Trad Folk that keep music for the people alive.
So carry on and hope your medical problems wont stop you coming back for some more.
I couldnt make this last fridays extravaganza but I am sure it was another great night out for music fans.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:08 AM

went to saltburn - played trish. but a song about the sea won it.

saltburn was okay, cos I've got a mate that runs the 2nd hand bookshop and I got to see him, and I don't see him very often. and No Fixed abode were playing - Una and tony are always good company. the singarounds were okay, but - you're not exactly a fart in a spacesuit, but you can see they're happier when they get back to John Barleycorn, the rollicking sailors, the pretty plougboys, I could have bee a spaceman said the kangaroo, the willie eckerslyke ee by gum songbook, same old, same old.

i did think of fixing up a pub gig and going again but my medical condition has worsened - so I can't do that. Its a nice town with some great restaurants, and the guest list was quite impressive. wouldn't waste your time on the song competition.

I also went to a great workshop on a bodhhran, which I have always wanted, but my wife won't let me get as she says (quite rigthtly) -it would just remain unplayed like all the other junk. also I think she knows I want one of those with bits of goat hanging off it, and she thinks its in bad taste, and unfair to the goat.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:26 AM

LOL Where do you get this wicked humour from Al?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:48 AM

Bodrhan is great next time you over this way can bring mine down and you can have a go.
You can get a reasonable one for thirty to fourty quid to start with.
About the price you should pay for a martin guitar.
LOL see you next time at mrfc

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:12 PM

First, Bob Gibson once told me when I told him I thought the show I'd just done was not very good, "Art, after a while of doing it, we are much more even than we seem to want to admit! The "bad shows" aren't as bad as we think, and the good shows aren't as great as we thought either."

That said, when I was playing with an audience that knew where I was coming from, and we were on the same page about the music, I would get so into showing folks what I had "found" that I often achieved a state called "FLOW" by Mihaly Chick-sent-me-hi-ye (phonetic spelling) in his book, also called FLOW. When one is in FLOW, time flies an seems to disappear, and you feel so at-one with what you are doing that it's quite intoxicating!

Now, I "learned" how to get 'there' even when I was playing for an audience who wasn't into folk music as I knew it to be. I grew into enjoying myself in less than perfect situations because that was in my audiences, and my own, best interest. What I was doing was more likely to pay the rent as well. I suspect I prefer to call this flexibility/adapting/compromise my "maturation."

An example: During the 1980s and '90s I had ten years of doing gigs every other day---5 months a year---on excursion steamboats (not gambling boats) on the Mississippi River. The audiences were NOT made up of folkies by any stretch!! Often, during a show, a towboat would pass and/or a tornado would float lazily by, or it would just be a lovely sunny day out on deck. When this happened, EVERYONE would leave the room and go out on deck. (You might say, as some did, that I wasn't playing with a full deck!) In this empty room, I did my whole show and the passengers heard it through speakers outside. I could see people approving through the windows---laughing, crying, belching, performing unnatural acts etc. etc.

All in all, I loved it---even when it was depressing. It sure did beat working!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:30 PM

"I have my audience,she sita and listens to all the mistakes and always finds something encouraging to say."
So you ARE looking for encouragement? If you want one, you have to be open to receiving criticism as well.... One is hollow without the other. As I've said elsewhere, "If you can only handle being told 'That's nice dear' then only ever show it to your mom... she HAS to say that."

" he is not just another formula folky"
Formula folky... now there's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one....

"will ensure that the tradition of acoutic music will carry on"
Yer taking it way too seriously... it's just music.... It's gonna happen no matter what you, or he, or she or they do....

"will these musical archeologists run out of stuff to dig up?"
Because it is a constantly evolving beast, all things old are always new to someone....

"What drives you to want to perform?"
It gets me off in a way nothing else does.... big time! It's more fun than a barrel of monkeys....

"your singing /playing/song writing is only valid if you have other people to tell you so?"

Art is pointless enough all on its own.... It's even more pointless if it exist in a vacuum....

What you need to get is a spell/grammar checker

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:25 PM

My grandma is ok,plenty of encouragement has come my way and I still dont like performing.
The archeologists in folk music only count stuff as worth finding if it fits their own limited criteria for being counted as traditional music.
If you wanna be my spell checker thats fine by me,at least you will be able to put all those hours of watching "Charmed" to good use

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:35 PM

"I still dont like performing"
Then don't... I don't see any body putting a gun to your head and trying to force you....

Though, mostly, in this thread, you sound more and more like you're just looking for attention and praise... And you're argumentative with those who do not stoop to kiss your butt....

Text is very easy to misinterpret however....

"The archeologists in folk music only count stuff as worth finding if it fits their own limited criteria"
But this sounds like wounded cry-babying....

I've never watched "Charmed" but my wife used to, on occasion... hasn't it been cancelled?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:33 PM

some forbearance Clinton

the guy wants to play

its not working out

we've all been there - or if we haven't we've missed out on an essential strand in the experience.

a drummer, I once worked with said some wise words to me - I was saying to him the vocalist in our band couldn't handle rejection.

he said - Al, if you can't handle rejection, you can't handle this job.

in a way, it makes the nice bits all the sweeter. cos you know people don't have to be nice.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:20 PM

Whats the matter boys no room for opinions other than your own.
I think it is great that you and others like you can bring music to the others of us who love to hear it.
I would rather listen than play.
I can play and sing and write songs I prefer not to I dont have to handle rejection because I never had it as far as music goes.
You see is in my opinion just a matter of personal taste you either like something or you dont.
If you like my songs that is great if you dont well I wont lose any sleep over it.
I dont know why I find it so difficult to enjoy the performance side of things.Lots of my freinds who appear to be in all other ways normal people seem to think it is the best thing in the world.
They get stressed and emotional over whether the audience are gonna like what they do.
I have never had any thing but great reactions when I play.
It could just be a sympathy vote I suppose.
But any way will let you two get on with pissing up each others backs backs and pop back occassionaly to see who is the wettest.
Cheers.
Oh dont know if Mp3 got thru or not let me know if you think you might be able to put it across or not.
Cheers Tim

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:23 AM

I spent the best part of 50 years of my life for the most part playing for myself at home and it's only over the last couple of years that I have ventured past that.

I enjoy it now and get a really positive kick out of it and find it a constant surprise that it doesn't scare the life out of me. I also kick myself that I haven't been doing it for the past 35+ years! Over the last couple of weeks I've started to play at places where I/we are on stage and the centre of attention rather than being part of a singaround (and getting it paid for it which is a bonus) which is what I have been used to for the last couple of years. I think I have always wanted to play in front of people but never felt I had the self belief to do it.

I think what has changed is ME accepting that I'm good enough to do it - or good enough that people can enjoy what I do - and also a realisation that I have some sort of responsibility to entertain them rather than trying to entertain myself or 'get it perfect so that I can play it to others'. It has taken me a long time to get over some of the self doubts (does my guitar playing sound crap and cliched? am I singing in tune? does it sound ok?) and I'm sure there will be more to come yet. Perhaps also the fact that my 14 year old son does it without batting an eyelid has made me rethink things!

I have definitely moved out of a few comfort zones on the way (horrible phrase I know but does describe it), perhaps the hardest surprisingly singing in front of my mother, but it has definitely been worth it. I'm not going to headline anywhere and I'm not going to be the main act and tour the folk clubs but I am happy to take my guitar and self to places and play for others. Where it ends up who knows but it is a wonderfully liberating thing to get to here as it was something I genuinely didn't believe I would do (I think I knew I could but didn't see that I ever would). And there is huge enjoyment in that.

For the most part I think people aren't that free with their praise generally - perhaps with the exception of a singaround situation where there is a lot of support and encouragement and where sometimes the amount of positive reaction is more in line with the amount of hurdles that the singer or player has managed to climb rather than whether the performance was something you would ever wish to listen to for pleasure - so part of me coming to terms with it being ok for me to stand up and try and entertain people is that people have sought me out and made positive noises.

For Tim - at the risk of offending you -
Don't play if it makes you unhappy - what would be the point? When you came and visited us in North Yorkshire it did come across how very difficult you find it to start playing and that is within what I hope and think is one of the most non threatening and supportive environments I have some across for people to play. Once you got going though you seemed fine.
At some point you have to either accept that people are telling you the truth or not - if you can't then that's up to you. But there does come across in your posts such a lot of anger (and even a hint of self-pity eg when you got dumped from the band) that it does suggest that it's something that really frustrates you and that you would like to enjoy. If that IS the case then it's worth persevering with because you might find a degree of the pleasure in performance that others do.
And do pop in and see us next time you are in North Yorkshire and give us a song :)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:09 PM

I am really sorry Nick but I cant place you at the moment.
I read what you posted and it is very noc to know that things can get better.
We are going up that way shortly and will pm you to find out were I can come and bother you.
I was very disapointed in the band thing,I had always said it wasnt for me but was persuaded that it would be less stressfull and much more fun to have others to share the post gig elation etc.
But it didnt work out so now am back to watching the others that play together being all matey and happy while I continue or not as a Billy no mates.
will get pm done now.
Cheers

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:17 PM

"no room for opinions other than your own"
Huh? Seems more like that accusation fits better on you....

All most people in this thread are saying is "Hey, if you don't like it, don't do it."

What's so hard about that?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

Tim

Some friends and I have a weekly singaround in a pub called the Thompsons Arms in Flaxton which you and your family came and visited a while back - you'll remember you sat in the other bar area as far as possible from where we were singing in a circle until being persuaded to move through and join us and then being encouraged to play :)

As an aside your wife has a very nice singing voice which rarely gets an airing either!

Perhaps you could follow in Sandy Thom's footsteps and broadcast live from home over the internet?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 12:41 PM

Prefer Sandy Thom's meself, she is much better looking than Tim LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:01 PM

Cheers Nick got you placed now and yes the Flaxton club is really great been there four times now and feel very welcoming every time.
One of the other guys sent us a cd of your brilliant singing and I listen to it often.
Villan all women are better looking than me I am a guy.
Clinton you are completely correct did you get the Mp3 I sent?
Would be interested to know if is kind of thing you would play
Tried to have listen to your music on your web site but couldnt get it to play.
Maybe you could post a link on here for me too try.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Nick
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:06 PM

The singing was not me - I play instruments if it's the CD I think you have but the singing is Alistair's who wrote the songs

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:26 PM

" did you get the Mp3 I sent?"
Yes I did, and only have had a chance to give it a curory glance... seems pretty cool so far, but I will sit down and give it a closer scan as soon as I can...

"Would be interested to know if is kind of thing you would play"
Probably.... I'll play just about anything... my 'show' currently includes everything from trad sea-shanties to... ummm.... lets see... I do a killer mellow cover of Iron Maiden's "Number Of The Beast"... I also do a pretty good cover of Prince's "Kiss"

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,twangler
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:56 PM

Is very basic first draft words are about right for me but the music is slightly improved.
I dont write the dots so I just do a recording once I have the basic tune and words sussed.
If you decide to play it could you send me acopy of your version?
Mp3 or whatever i would like to hear how an old pro would handle it.
If not no sweat.
Thanks for giving it a listen.
Tim

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 03:10 PM

"an old pro"

LOL

That's funny!



Ya... When I get it sussed, I'll try to get a recording of it

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 09:30 PM

The late VERY great Jake Thackeray (sp) used to say that he was a singing oik , NOT a listening oik - Decide which you are - and stick to it !
There is a lot of very good advice from a variety of performers and non performers in this thread - Wether the advice applies to YOUR situation , only YOU can tell - We are ALL different!
A 'star' comedian , talking about Royal Command shows , said " When you STOP being nervous before a gig , THAT is the time to stop gigging as you are then over confident !"
Remember that most of your audience DONT notice mistakes . and the ones that DO will be more impressed by the fact that an error didn't make you stop performing !
We singing oiks come in all shapes and sizes , and the only thing we have in common is the urge to get in front of an audience and perform
and it doesnt matter how big or small the audience is !
If Guest JMC is NOT happy performing there are two options ! Either STOP , or learn to enjoy it !
IF the decision is to carry on , then PRACTICE and KEEP Practicing !

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:00 PM

Closer listen... well, I'll give it this... it's 4 good chords around and around and around and around for 5 minutes and 11 seconds....

If I did cover this I'd at least tweak the chorus (And sing it less often) so that an Em replaces the Bm in the structure... if only to make it a little less tedious....

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:29 AM

Sounds ok mate you do what it needs to make it fit in with your other covers.
It is a bit long in that version innit?
Then there is the waffle front and back so reckon could make it last ten minutes easy.
Thats time fro lots of bar takings.
hey if you stay awake long enough to try it recording apreciated.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:46 AM

That was me

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: stallion
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 05:49 AM

How apt a name, Mud-Cat, hadn't really thought how appropriate it was!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 06:51 AM

"If Guest JMC is NOT happy performing there are two options ! Either STOP , or learn to enjoy it !"

Good advice there leadfingers.

Given that I'm not planning to stop any time soon, has anyone got any advice for me on how to enjoy it?!? Sounds like a daft question really.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 07:26 AM

Is weird innit is like telling someone having breakdown to pull them selves together?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 07:32 AM

Get a good tuner - so that your guitar is in tune

play within your ability - start frying an egg, and make a sandwich - say the words out loud as you heat the oil, cut the bread, butter the bread, fry the egg, etc. if your mind goes blank before you pop the sandwich in your mouth - you don't know the words well enough to trouble audiences with it. Concentrate harder.

if you haven't finished before you start eating - the songs too bloody long for an inexperienced singer.

Apply this word learning technique to other non egg related activities.

(two and three verse songs are fine - black is the colour is great, because the chords just repeat themselves Am F G, similarly You ain't going nowhere G Am C - you can't get lost in these songs - one less thing to think about - you have to do all your thinking before you get up onstage, you can take it for granted that something unthought of will go wrong - so get as much worked out as you can)

say something - doesn't have to wise or witty, but say something friendly - its only coutresy - they are going to listen to you.
(don't blether on too long - an easy trap to fall into - I do it sometimes, sounds really egocentric and horrible)

Christy Moore said a wise thing once - about the first time he played The Point in Dublin - a big venue - I established they were glad to see me. And then I knew it was okay for me to be glad to be there.

Get someone else to drive. have a drink or two before you go on, and about six when you get off. This will take you through the pain barrier. Its not the healthiest profession in the world.

Knock off the drinking if you can, when you can.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Nick
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 08:05 AM

Do you ever record and listen to your performances?

I ask my wife when I am out and singing how I sound and have come to realise that I'm a terrible judge of what sounds good or bad while I'm doing it. Listening to myself afterwards is the best way that I have any idea of what I sound like to other people rather than how I think I'm sounding. When listening to myself on tape I still notice all the mistakes - the notes out of tune; the bits that don't work; the fluffed guitar notes; etc - but I also get an idea of what works and what sounds good and what the overall impression is like rather than the detail as I would guess it's that overall impression that people listening hear. Listening also helps me to make the detail hopefully better next time. Without that I would be lost.
You may do this already of course in which case other question that comes to mind are -

1 Have you ever enjoyed a performance anywhere?

2 If you have what made it enjoyable?

3 Are you ever happy with things that you play?

4 What do you think it is that stops you reproducing that when performing?

5 What stops you enjoying performing - is it the being there performing or the things that you are performing?

I'm that new to doing this myself that I'd be interested especially as many of the things you ask and raise are ones that I (and also my wife) also question.

Have you being doing this a long time yourself and what sort of places and audiences are you playing?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: stallion
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 10:18 AM

I forgot the tape thing, I used to do it a lot to sort out phrasing etc, even singing the melody line onto tape and singing the harmony line along with it. We recorded a cd wich was a useful tool in working out what needed working on, we actually produced it, warts and all, and a recent review pointed out all the things we already knew and have put right but it's "out there" now, I use it a lot for practice! The couple of beers thing works bacause it relaxes the back of your throat and the singing is better however vocal exercises can do the same thing, and don't forget to warm up. As to forgetting words Carthy was singing at a concert recently and forgot the words...."what was it they brought, O bugger, there was five things but I can only remember four.... oh yes....no.....ahh".....the song then continued, I don't suppose he worried too much about it!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:24 PM

"waffle front and back"
I don't know what that means.... but I do have a question... is the protagonist in this song a 14 year old boy? That's who it sounds like....   A jilted, jealous little kid...

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:49 PM

I make up me own songs and find that it is great idea as soon after working out chords,words as you can.,to record it.
Is a good reference for if you forget the tune.
Also gives you chance to listen to it yourself (obvious Innit?)
You also get a shock when you work on it for a while and it changes then you listen to original recording again.
I find I have to go with much simpler musical arrangement than I would like if I plan to play a song in public than if is just for family.
It is better for me to have a simple chord sequence (repetitive Clinton) than to try and play how I would really like it to sound because I have more chance of doing it right and that lessens the panic and helps get the words over more easily and bit clearer.
When I listen to accomplished artistes like WLD it just seems to me that although there are mistakes it never seems that level of difficulty or complexity of the playing has been allowed to be compromised.
I often hear a local guy called Dick Appleton play and he is my guitar hero for depth of knowledge and range of styles etc he makes mistakes but then he is playing at a level far above that which most people will ever master and he can play continuously for several hours.
I wish my ratio of mistakes to notes played were as low as he acheives.
How about it WLD do you ever sit there about to play us one of your own brilliant songs and then think at last minute maybe I will leave that sequence of hammering bending and sliding out this time?
Or is that part of what the practice regime should achieve ,to ensure you never play right on the edge of your abilities.
Eerr just realised can preveiw these posts.
So would like to say not having dig at WLD is just have heard him play he is great performer funny witty very dry great songs and playing. I know that he has been there and done it and any advice he gives is likely to be worth having.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:20 PM

Yes of course sometimes my mind totally goes blank. The worse time ever was when had this illness called trigeminal neuralgia - the pain killers I took totally voided my mind for what seemed an infinity of time. I was gigging pubs at te time - singing songs that everybody knows - everybody except me, as it turned out!

sometimes it irritates me that the songs which are occupying all my thoughts and practice time and exciting my imagination, are not ready to perform - not eaten enough eggs I guess.

And worse is when you decide to do something get half way through a piece and realise you haven't practised it for 6 months - usually a request, someone has waited patiently for half the night for - told you they have driven fifty miles to hear you sing the bloody thing.

but all this really goes to show what I'm saying. get the performing thing sorted out. look at those songs which the audience have liked. try and analyse what YOU are good at. then you will maximise those bits and get to look forward to doing them. are there any bits from the songs you've played , you can co-opt into your own songs.

this is really what is meant by tradition - seeing what the Copper family and Bob Dylan have handed down to you. Not all the asinine gurning, and weird singing voices, and singing about redundant crap that no one has experienced - that they would have you believe is 'traditional' music.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:44 PM

Hey Clinton you are alive!
Waffle front and back is the amount of time would expect whoever sings song to add while telling audience how clever he is to know a song and be about to sing it,and then how good he was while he was singing it.
The fourteen year old boy bit?
Well i did look through my songs quite carefully because I wanted to find some thing apropriate for you to hear.
So apart from being tedious,too long,too simple,and about an underage romance that has ended and left some one a bit miffed.
Do you think this could be one of your covers?
if no I guess you wont be sending me a version by you?
Cheers for now gotta gig.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 06:40 PM

Well to answer Nick's questions:

"1 Have you ever enjoyed a performance anywhere?"

Yes - the first time I got up on stage to properly "do a song" - just me and a drone - the audience fell totally silent and I knew I was aceing it. It's never been quite the same since. Also I've enjoyed gigs recently where I was just in someone else's backing band and not really been worried about the whole thing.

"2 If you have what made it enjoyable?"

Erm, in the first instance feeling that I'd done myself justice and the audience got it. In the second, not being too worried about whether they did or not, because it was the band leader's neck on the block, not mine. Also possibly having had a drink or two, which is not normally possible as I'm driving.

"3 Are you ever happy with things that you play?"

I often think we sound fantastic in rehearsal when something is really working.

"4 What do you think it is that stops you reproducing that when performing?"

Acoustics for one thing. We rehearse without amplification, usually in a lovely big space with great acoustics. Then you get to a gig and have to wrestle with the PA, mikes, pickups, sound engineers, strange shaped rooms full of people and carpets, people talking etc.

"5 What stops you enjoying performing - is it the being there performing or the things that you are performing?"

I think it's the performing rather than the material. I suppose one of the questions this thread has raised for me is whether I'd enjoy performing more if the material I was doing was less po-faced and miserable. But I've never been good at being amusing in public, so I think that might be worse, and I do like stuff I can put my heart and soul into. The miserable songs are the ones I can relate to.

"Have you being doing this a long time yourself and what sort of places and audiences are you playing?"

Been properly getting up there singing for about six months really (been an occasional gigging musician for a few years), and although we're playing traditional-ish music we're doing it in a weird way and mostly to non-folk audiences (haven't got the contacts on the folk scene). We play regularly at an acoustic club, and here and there on the small indie band circuit.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 02:07 PM

"romance that has ended and left some one a bit miffed"
And The Understatement of the Week Award goes to......

Holy cripes man... Your protagonist starts off by saying "He'd" rather be lied to.... Then "He" states that if "He" had "His" way "He'd" hypnotize "Her" and MAKE "her" stay against "Her" will..... Later "He" suggests that it might be o.k. with "Him" to KILL "Her"....

Then "He" belittles "Her" wedding day.....

Then in a fit of pique "He" runs off to drown "His" sorrows in beer all the while wishing ill on the people who don't understand "Him"....

It's no wonder "He's" alone....

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 02:20 PM

The one thing I enjoy most of all about the Folk circuit is the encouragement given to performers whether seasoned players or newbies.
'Some' nice bits and 'some' nice people on this thread. Give it all you've got and I hope you all achieve whatever kind of success you want.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 02:28 PM

And your point is?
Maybe he is wondering at her ability to lie to her partner?
Maybe She is the one who is giving him the permision to hypnotise her.
perhaps She has fallen in love with a guy while at same time loving another.
Maybe it is a song and is open to interpretation according to the mood and inclination of the listener.
Maybe it is too complicated to travel.
Or maybe is just crap
Its all subjective innit?
Hey if you dont want to add it to your list of covers,and even if you dont end up sending me a copy of you doing it.
It has been good to have your POV about it
Cheers.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 02:35 PM

Oh hi GS didnt see you had posted.
How are the rehersals coming on?
Goona try that comp that you suggested have play song to a few people aroung here and they think it is ok.
Is just finding time this week to record it.
Would be great to go to the final even if not in it myself .
I could bring the tomatoes for your acceptance speach.LOL

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 02:36 PM

"And your point is?"
Pretty plain if you reread my post....

"Maybe he is wondering at her ability to lie to her partner?"
What business is that of his???


"Maybe She is the one who is giving him the permision to hypnotise her"
Sure don't scan that way.... If there was permission, they wouldn't be "Stolen Charms".. this song borders on saying it's o.k. to rape....

"perhaps She has fallen in love with a guy while at same time loving another"
Maybe, but it's her choice isn't it....


"Maybe it is a song... mood and inclination of the listener."
Maybe? I donno... you're the songwriter... you tell me....


"Maybe it is too complicated to travel."
Doubtful.... very doubtful...

"Or maybe is just crap"
Is it?

"Its all subjective innit?"
Nope.... One can take an objective approach to art.... but one must be prepared for what one might discover....

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 02:37 PM

Damn I thought Clinton was handling the spell check .

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 03:43 PM

Hi Tim. Had a great rehearsal of my song and it is being recorded on Thursday......Phil (The Fence) is playing guitar, Rosie (myrtle) is singing it and I am doing the harmony. Seems there are a lot of entrants this year so chances of getting into the final ten again are slightly more remote. Hope you do enter...several people I know are entering which is great as it makes for a good final...quality songs.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 03:44 PM

PS won't be seeing you for a couple of weeks as I'm off to Tenerife on Friday. Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 06:57 PM

The stolen charms are sadly offered stolen charms.
Now in your culture that might only be capable of being interperated as rape.
But in ours,using english as our first language,
it could mean that they were being stolen by the protaganists,Male and female from a third party ,such as a husband.
This would allow for the unlikely ability of the preexisting partener to be capable of "owning"the emotions of another in the first place.
But I dont want to stray into the realms of USA property lawyers!LOL
If you are involved with someone, who is by the very fact of forming a relationship with you,proving their ability to lie to a loved one. Then you would be foolish to ignore that .
I think that songs are all about interpretation by the listener.
The listener hears the lyric through the filter of their own previous experience and pre conditioning by their society towards the subject matter.
I like that you see it differently to all the people who have heard it previously and it is very complimentary that you have taken the time to listen and make a judgment in the way that you have.
Cheers mate

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,GS
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 08:54 PM

Very Interesting!

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:41 PM

Hi Gs have great Hols and will try a nd get my recording sorted in time. Have asked for entry form and was going to record tonight but MRs Twangler insists we go to The LEaking Boot in cleethorpes to support the fledgling Session there.
If any on eis interested is not a trad session but a slow one wiht simple tunes,but mostly songs of any sort you fancy.
It is a great way to get into the swing of playing ensemble or if you are just a bit slow with the chord changes or a real beginer.
She enjoys the chance to play a variety of stuff on her whistle by ear.
Yes I know wrong orifice but who am I to tell her?

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:44 PM

Well, thanks to everyone who contributed thoughts and advice.

I played a gig tonight and actually managed to enjoy it. I was less nervous to begin with because half the audience who would normally have been there were at home watching the footy, but I did put some of the advice into action, namely:

1) I had a SMALL drink (enough not to affect my driving by going home time)
2) I talked to the audience and smiled between numbers
3) A number seemed to start out of tune so I stopped it and made us retune (actually it wasn't any better so perhaps it was just my imagination)
4) I forgave myself for the imperfections and lived with the PA not being quite as I would have liked.

And lo and behold it worked. I enjoyed it, the audience thought it was great, and a good time was had by all.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: GUEST,JMC
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:49 PM

Let me expand on that actually - the feedback was that we were brilliant, and I could HEAR people shutting up and shushing each other to listen to us, which is the thing that really makes a difference to how it feels playing to them.

Subject: RE: Enjoying gigs and being good (or not)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Aug 06 - 01:01 AM

So the days of anxt on here were wothwhile in the end?
Well done mate and may you have many more like that.