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So do we live to die and comeback ....?
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Subject: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: skarpi Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:41 PM I am just wandering , am I the only one to think that we live on after we die and do we come back to this live on earth ? what can we see or feel ? I feel for a men and a woman in my house a strong feeling? for them ... I dream , I see things in my sleep and they come true ? and sometimes I cant sleep in my house ...........? Now we Icelanders have strong faith to what we see and feel we believe in trolls and fairies and live after death . In Greenland the Inoks believe when you die you get into a ravens body ..... thats what I am told ? I stayed at friends house when I was In Us last November I slept in a room upstairs and I felt someone in that room a man ..... who had died there .....? So what about the rest of you ?? Some say this is a crap and only a fool believe those things? It would be nice to see what people think in other countrys Please behave and respect eatch other , becouse I know people do not agree about this matter .. All the best Skarpi Iceland. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: George Papavgeris Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:46 PM I honestly don't know, Skarpi; but even if we do come back, I believe that each life is distinct and separate. We cannot "carry over" from one to the next. So, we must make amends in this life for any wrongs we committed; and we will be judged for each life separately. Even if one believes that they will come back, this gives them no excuse for wrong behavior in this life. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: skipy Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM I will not say that it is crap as that would be rude to those that have a belief, I respect others right to what they have been taught or believe ( within reason )but for me :- death, endex, curtains, finish, no more, nothing, void. Skipy it is a dead parrot! notloB |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Sorcha Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM No Skarp, you are NOT alone....I believe. But sometimes is IS difficult to 'remember' who you were and what you learned. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: skarpi Date: 10 Aug 06 - 05:51 PM Thank you George , well said and I agree with you . All the best Skarpi Iceland . |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Alaska Mike Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:00 PM Personally, I believe that the life begins with birth and ends with death. Nothing remains after death but the memories of the things we did and people we touched. It is up to us to make sure our lives are meaningful and so we should live our lives in a positive, helpful and productive way. Mike |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Azizi Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:01 PM I very strongly believe in reincarnation. Reincarnation is a belief system that one's soul lives many human lifes in order to grow and to learn. I do not believe in transmigration-a belief that after death, a human being's soul passes into another body after death, including the bodies of animals, birds, etc. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Little Hawk Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM I see it the same way as Azizi. I do not believe that the soul can die, although the body obviously can, and does. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: skipy Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM Well put Alaska Mike, but Little Hawk, you know that I respect your views. Skipy. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Azizi Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM As part of my belief in reincarnation, I believe in the law of karma. See this excerpt from What is karma? "...karma as the law of cause and effect. The principle is similar to that expressed by the Christian verse, "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." The word karma means action, and it's used as short-hand for the idea that every action you take causes a reaction in the future. Positive, caring actions will bring positive results back to you, whereas negative, hurtful actions will result in your suffering. Many people believe that both good and bad karma can return to you at any time, even after this lifetime. Hindus believe that the soul is immortal and is reborn in a new body after a person dies. Thus, you have an endless series of lives to work on your karma. In each life, you should strive to do good works and evolve spiritually so your next life will be better than this one. Hindus seek to eventually break free of the cycle of reincarnation and attain eternal bliss of the soul, called moksha... Every action you take will have a repercussion in the future, and you have to live with the consequences of your actions. Most Buddhists believe in reincarnation, and their goal is to transcend constant birth and rebirth to achieve nirvana, similar to the Hindu moksha. Buddhism also places importance on the intent of one's actions. For example, if you accidentally step on a bug and kill it, you won't create bad karma. But if you purposefully kill it, you create bad karma. Likewise, if your actions unintentionally benefit others, you do not create good karma. Only when you mindfully do good, do you create good karma..." |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Elmer Fudd Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:21 PM I believe in reincarnation, but only for the unenlightened. --A very wise guy |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:27 PM Sorry, Skipy, not so. Nothing ever ends. It just changes. Ice becomes water becomes vapour becomes rain becomes water becomes ice. Nothing religious or etheral about it. Just simple physics. You die. You are burned. Bits go in the atmosphere. What happens to them? You die. You are buried. You feed the soil. Grass grows on your grave. Birds eat the seeds. It's quite simple realy. All the energy that is around always has been there and always will be. Just in a different form. Surely we are not so vain to think we are the only sentient form of energy are we? Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Ebbie Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:31 PM "Personally, I believe that the life begins with birth and ends with death. Nothing remains after death but the memories of the things we did and people we touched. It is up to us to make sure our lives are meaningful and so we should live our lives in a positive, helpful and productive way." Rapaire I think that Rap's belif is an excellent blueprint for life. If we all lived that ideal we'd have a better world. So, as far as Rap's beliefs go, I agree. ButI have evidence of a different sort. Evidence that makes me believe that good as that goal is, there's a whole lot more to existence than just living a moral, loving life. Skarpi, I hope this thread keeps going. :) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: skipy Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:39 PM DtG, yes I agree with your concept of matter, but there is no spirit, no more Dtg, no more Skipy. Skipy |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM I believe that the life begins with birth and ends with death Sorry. Far too many examples disprove that. A cow is born. It lives. It is slaughtered. It's meat feeds 10 people who would have otherwise died. How has life ended with the cows death? What the statement above is saying is that our very narrow view of life ends in death. Perhaps life is better off without it? Again. Nothing ever ends. All the energy in the universe has always been there. It always will be. It just changes states. Now, as to where it came from and where it will go to at the begining and end of all things... Well. If I could answer that do you think I would be posting it here? :D (tG) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM OK skipy. Million dollar question. Define spirit. :D (tG) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: GUEST Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM As usual, believers believe, non believers don't believe. Neither can convince the other. Why discuss it again? |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: skipy Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:51 PM Gin! Skipy |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: gnu Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:53 PM I will be born again... as an alcohlic woodpecker. Oh... old joke on my behalf... well then, perhaps as an acrophobic eagle, that doesn't like fish. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:53 PM Believers believe what, Guest? And if you don't discuss things metaphysical what are you left with? Folk and Blues music? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Artful Codger Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:55 PM Originally, reincarnation was part of the orthodox Christian beliefs and scriptures. However, Constantine had all biblical references to it expunged because he felt that people needed a stronger spiritual goad, a greater sense of urgency. Reincarnation is also described in many of the Gnostic texts, as well as in some core Judaic texts. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 10 Aug 06 - 06:56 PM Hehehe - Good man yerself skip! Gin never disappears of course - It is just recycled by Booths. So spirit does live on forever? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: skipy Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:01 PM Fair comment, I can do a miracle, viz:- I can turn Gin to water, I can do this with many other liquids as well. Skipy. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Bill D Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:50 PM There is no reason to 'believe' that we come back until we can reasonably define and describe what it is that can do that. Saying 'spirit' or 'soul' is just sidestepping the issue. An awful lot of metaphysical stuff gets promulgated because is is easy to assume that once something is named and discussed, it somehow attains 'existence'. Most of the arguements FOR things like 'spirit' are either circular, or commit the fallacy of 'affirming the consequent', where your conclusion is already contained in your premises. Serious early 'scientists' used to pontificate about the 'ether', as if they had examined it, when all they had done was hazard some guesses about reality, then act as if it MUST exist because it was so....ummm...reasonable. Sorry, folks...but in my opinion, it is just wishful thinking. Dave the Gnome is correct in his reminder that the ultimate particles never disappear, and in some sense, we will 'exist' forever...but that is a largely irrelevant 'existence'...nothing identifiable as 'me' will come back. Some of my elements may nourish a flower someday, but I won't know it, and the flower won't know it. Those who prefer their metaphysics to be more mystical and romantic may, and no doubt will, just ignore my explanations and **believe**....Nothing I can do about that. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Azizi Date: 10 Aug 06 - 07:57 PM "Those who prefer their metaphysics to be more mystical and romantic may, and no doubt will, just ignore my explanations and **believe**....Nothing I can do about that. " Bill, why do you feel that you need to do something about what other people believe or don't believe? [rhetorical question or non-rhetorical question as you like it] |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Bill D Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:20 PM well, Azizi, in one sense, I need do nothing about it, as it CAN be argued that the beliefs in another's head have no effect on me. If someone wants to believe that fairies in their garden tend the flowers, I can only shrug. Likewise, a simple belief in reincarnation by YOU is unlikely to make much difference to ME. But, I care, and I write, and I talk, and...once, briefly, I taught in school....because the basic mindset that entertains such beliefs is, in some places, dangerous and is used to justify behavior which IS relevant to me. Note that most of the suicide bombers 'believe' that they are going straight to Paradise for what they do. This not precisely reincarnation, but it is the 'mindset' that concerns me. Most who believe in one type of metaphysical or paranormal phenomena also believe in others. Further, IF I am correct and these beliefs are not well supported or explained, then having these beliefs 'just because they feel nice' does, by definition, interfere with looking at more productive and useful inquiry. (If we 'know' that the world was created in 4004 BC, then why put much stock in all the carbon dating and anthropology and archeology?...It's just some 'stuff' God put there to amuse us) well...you asked. Some ideas and claims are worth investigating...but it is VERY easy to be lured by specious 'proofs' and careless analysis into believing almost anything that sounds like something we'd like. I have just learned to not be bothered by the idea that I am 'gone' when I go! I need to do the best I can while I am here. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Bill D Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:23 PM (there are many, many more examples and subtle points I could make, but I hope I covered a couple basic directions) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: katlaughing Date: 10 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM But, Billdarlin'...(we've been here before, eh?)a belief in metaphysics does not mean one is a fatalist. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Azizi Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:02 PM Thanks, Bill for your responses. I also feel the need to do the best I can while I'm here, and "I'm a believer" not because it feels nice but because it makes sense to me. My belief in reincarnation and karma does not absolve me from wrongdoing in this life. I believe that I have been held accountable for what I've done in past lifes in those lifes and in this one. And What I do in this life will impact my next life. And-yes-I know that what I consider to be erroneous interpretations of how the law of karma works lead to a caste system approach to people and apathy about world conditions and finding cures for diseases etc [since some might take the position that current suffering is because of past misdeeds]. But I don't think that karma works that way. Btw, I also believe in a God [or Force] who [that?] is active in individuals' lifes. Are my beliefs right? Well, they're right for me. As to whether others agree or disagree with me-that's on them. I'm not troubled either way by that. I read what others write. I take in what they 'say'[or don't as the case may be]. But I think that over time my core beliefs will become deeper and clearer. At least I hope so as that is my intent. Positive vibrations, Azizi |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Peace Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:19 PM It worked for Elvis . . . . |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:44 PM "do we live to die and comeback" I live to make the most of this life. sIx |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Azizi Date: 10 Aug 06 - 09:46 PM What, shaking his hips? Well, I can do that too. And it works for me too. Well, um, I don't mean to imply that my work entails shakin my hips but my hip bone's connected to my tail bone or how ever that song goes. And don't even start thinking 'bout that 'shake your money maker" song. [I was way grown before I realized what that meant and now that I know I know it don't apply to me]. Not that that has anything to do with...Wait a minute...I been using that saying too much lately. I sound like a broken record.I gotta find me a new saying. Maybe I need a new attitude. I'm gonna ease on down the road and meditate on this thread 'cause it's heavy as all get out.. Peace. I mean, Best wishes... I mean, Positive vibrations... I mean see ya lata alligata and all that jazz. :o) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Bill D Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:11 PM Indeed kat, we have been here before. It is awkward for me, with all my training in how to interpret and use the terms in precise ways, to answer and converse with folks who use the language and concepts in a looser, more 'personal' way. Thus, Azizi, saying that her beliefs are "right for me" is on the one hand making a meaningful statement about the subjectivity of experience, and on the other hand violating a basic law of logic that says that two incompatible beliefs cannot both be true. The question comes down to when and whether we should be able to use subjective interpretations and 'personal' definitions of concepts to justify our beliefs. This 'should' is not some legal term, as there is no way to take someone to court for believing or NOT believing some metaphysical principle.....except...*wry smile* when someone with a vested interest in a particular form of metaphysics gets control of the courts and writing the laws. Seems to me I remember a few examples of that throughout history. Which is worse..."Y" demanding that "X", at least publicly, bow to "Ys" notion of metaphysical 'truth', or "X" objecting to ANY notion of vague, unexplained metaphysical/paranormal idea? Is is insulting to explain that I consider certain ideas to be no more than wishful thinking fueled by superstition and well-designed stories and undocumented 'reports'? It seems to me that it is irrelevant whether belief "Z" is seemingly benign or obviously dangerous and threatening....they are either correct or incorrect....either Islamic suicide bombers do go to Paridise for killing a few people on a bus, or they do not! EITHER we do come back in some way, after death, or we do not....and the implications are not irrelevant either way. There are a couple of principles I constantly refer to in these issues.... 1)The burden of proof is on the assertor. Even a casual, offhand statement.."I believe that..." is an assertion, and carries an implication (even if not argued openly) that, if you thought about it properly, you would believe it too. All *I* assert is that 'belief' should be based on better evidence than what is usually offered. 2)People cannot fairly do like Humpty-Dumpty did to Alice, and make a "word mean anything I choose, no more & no less." When using language that has very specific technical meaning, like 'truth' and 'valid' and 'proof' and 'know', it is important not to use it in the casual way of informal discourse and suggest that it somehow satisfies and answers the 'formal' criteria and justifies something that it does not. I know, it seems like I am at it again...*grin*..happily babbling on in my pedantic way and suggesting that my long-winded, tedious disclaimers dis-prove your cherished notions about ....well, about all that 'stuff' that various people believe. Nope...I cannot DIS-prove anything...that is not how it works in these discussions...maybe we DO "come back"...maybe 'spirit' is the essential, enervating force of the Universe...maybe the position of the stars DO determine our lives...maybe the lines in our palms DO explain our personalities...maybe black cats ARE bad luck...maybe the lines in the Chilean desert WERE made by aliens...maybe 'karma' does follow us thru lives and cost us points if we're bad...maybe there IS a pot of gold if you can find the end of a rainbow...maybe God DID tell Moses some things about what to do...maybe Athena DID spring full-grown from the forehead of Zeus.........maybe, damn it, it IS "turtles all the way down!" ALL of those things have been, and most ARE believed by somone! What a list of arcane things that various humans believe! And everyone who believes in one batch seriously rejects others! Amos believes this and rejects that...katlaughing accepts this and ridicules that...*daylia* is sure of this and disputes that...Little Hawk....well, Little Hawk says it's all everything and it's all fine, except for G. Bush!....Georgiansilver and WYSIWYG and tarheel and Jerry R. and many others 'agree' on one thing, but interpret the details so VERY differently! In some ways, I understand the historical precedents, pressures, influences and psychological tendencies that bring about different patterns of belief in this hectic life...but in other ways I can barely comprehend how anyone who looks at the whole array of contradictory and incompatible... and sometimes downright ludicrous ideas that we are presented with can pick ANY of them! I see wonderful, marvelous, fascinating aspects of life, nature, people, ideas and possibilities to explore and wonder at....and boy, HOW I wish I could 'come back' and have more runs at understanding more of it! But, I am resigned, if not content, to just absorb what I can, in the most open, honest way I can manage while I am here. I just don't want anyone to tell me for a moment that being 'open' requires me to be 'gullible'. I will listen, but I have learned how to sort 'maybe' from 'probably', and I will call 'em like I sees 'em. (those masochists who have read this far may now shake your heads and wonder how he gets the energy at his advanced age) ;>) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Azizi Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:18 PM "those masochists who have read this far may now shake your heads and wonder how he gets the energy at his advanced age) ;>) " Geritol? But given the new airplane restrictions, you can't take it with ya. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Peace Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:26 PM "(those masochists who have read this far may now shake your heads and wonder how he gets the energy at his advanced age) ;>)" Jaysus, Bill, have a heart. At my advanced age I CAN'T shake my head. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Bill D Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:27 PM I ain't going, then! Nawww...haven't seen Geritol in years..(decades?) But my wife does |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Bill D Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:33 PM (Peace...I have a pinched nerve in the 3rd cervical vertebra...I can't shake MY head much, either...and if I look over my left shoulder for more than a few seconds, my right arm gets numb!....This, for a guy who stood on his head at his 50th and 55th birthdays while folks recited "You are old, Father William"! The doc says "don't do that anymore!") (Im my youth, I feared it might injure the brain...but) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Amos Date: 10 Aug 06 - 11:37 PM Skarpi: There are many who see the world as you do, and notice the difference between the things known in the world, and that which does the knowing. Until that distinction is observed personally, describing it is makes as much sense as describing Walmart's to a Trobriand Islander. It is not so much a question of "rules of logic" as one of "windows of experience"; some windows look one way, some the other. Bill won't like this, and he will have his reasons. zzzz Anyway, the main thing I wanted to say is just, "No, my friend, you are not alone". A |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: John O'L Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:27 AM Indeed kat, we have been here before. That's an extraordinary claim Bill. Do you have any evidence? |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: skarpi Date: 11 Aug 06 - 02:41 AM I didint know that you been in this matter before, but anyhow still ---- only one man has given me a good answer. and Ebbie you suprised alot becouse you have some many to give, you have a great (áru) the colors around you .......... you are a healing person. all the best Skarpi Iceland |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Paul Burke Date: 11 Aug 06 - 04:25 AM Gnomic Dave, you are confusing different meanings of the words "come back", and of the word "we". Of course our materials are recycled, and as I've pointed out elsewhere at different parts of your own career (that is, of your materials), you have been in the core of at least one star (probably thousands), a gas close to absolute zero in deep space, part of countless other living things, trees, birds, insects, bacteria, wood, leaves, non living things like rocks, you have been spewed out of a volcano, you have been to the upper atmosphere and the depths of the sea. But the "I" that you recognise as your self, that feeling of integrity and unity that separates YOU from other 'yous'... that is the big question. Is it a thing that has colonised your current body from outside, or does it only exist because of the Gnome of today? I'm in favour of the latter, partly because it explains so much more. Like why my friend's 'soul' departed after his brain was deprived of oxygen, leaving a 'living' but non- responding body. Why a dose of simple chemicals (CH3COOH for example) can change people's personalities. Why people can have such widely different cultural beliefs even when the underlying hardware of the brain is the same. And most of all, I don't remember anything of any previous life. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Aug 06 - 05:41 AM That is indeed the big question, Paul and I agree with you. It does raise another question. If my 'soul' (my quotes as well - not just copying yours!) only exists because of Gnome today has it defied our previous logic and come into existance out of nothingness or is it also transient energy? If it is the former then we disprove ourselves. If it is the later, I believe that it is a form of energy that we cannot explain. I would be happy to hear arguments to prove this wrong though. I am also blisfully unaware of any previous existance. I would love to know how it feels to all those things you mention but I don't think my brain could stand it! Perhaps the 'soul energy' that we do not understand does itself recycle. Perhaps it does have a sentience. Perhaps it is symbiotic rather than indepenent. Who knows? I am sure the same questions will rage throughout mans development for milleniae. I suspect by the time they are answered this Gnomic form will be elsewhere. Or should I say otherwhere?:-) Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Paco Rabanne Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM No. We die, we rot. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: bobad Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:15 AM "But the "I" that you recognise as your self, that feeling of integrity and unity that separates YOU from other 'yous'... that is the big question. Is it a thing that has colonised your current body from outside, or does it only exist because of the Gnome of today?" It is all a figment of your imagination. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Paul Burke Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:22 AM There once was a sceptic from Deal Who said "Although pain isn't real, When I sit on a pin And it punctures my skin I dislike what I fancy I feel." My working assumption is that feeling is somethaing that happens in any sufficiently complex recursive system. It's just a property of complex processes involving matter and energy (in the Physics sense of the word). |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: suzi Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:26 AM I believe our soul passes over into the other side....only our body dies.... |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:33 AM No. We die, we rot. So, retired, rather than we live to die and comeback you believe we live to die and compost? :D (tG) |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: Paco Rabanne Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:42 AM Correct! |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: bobad Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:43 AM "So, retired, rather than we live to die and comeback you believe we live to die and compost?" You say that as if it's a bad thing. |
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Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....? From: katlaughing Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:47 AM My apologies, Skarpi. I didn't mean we shouldn't be discussing this again. I was just teasing BillD a little.:-) (And, BillD...black cats are NOT bad luck...unless one believes it to be so!**bg**) I am reading a fascinating book, "Blind Man's Bluff," about the early days, and on, of submarine espionage. One of the ways used to figure out where a lost bomb, and later, a lost sub, was the use of Bayes Theorem. I have not read an in-depth description of it, but the way it is described in the book, a Monte Carlo type betting on the seekers' "hunches," made me wonder if those of us who believe in reincarnation, karma, etc. could apply it to our beliefs. katwithninelivesormore |
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