So do we live to die and comeback ....?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 11:15 AM

"maybe 'spirit' is the essential, enervating force of the Universe" Bill D

Bill, is that a typo or did you mean it? *G*

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 11:58 AM

You say that as if it's a bad thing.

How and where on earth did you draw that conclusion bobad?

DtG

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 12:27 PM

Hey, folks, I've already come back at least 50 times! Maybe a lot more than that.

You'd think I would have had enough sense not to....but who knows what the deal looks like from the other side, eh?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: bobad
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 12:31 PM

"Hey, folks, I've already come back at least 50 times!"

Hey LH, maybe it's time to compost.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 12:36 PM

All those old bodies have pretty much gone to dust by now, but you might be able to find some bones lying around if you know where to look.

Similarly, you might be able to find some of the old clothes I've thrown out in the last few decades.

Same basic deal.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:11 PM

John O'L "That's an extraordinary claim Bill. Do you have any evidence?"
*grin*....'here'...as in this discussion. You'd have to ask Little Hawk whether he has seen me "elsewhere"

Ebbie: *gulp* not a typo...just an embarrassing lapse of linguistic competence for a moment...for "enervating" substitute "energizing"
...although, given the current state of things,I suppose a case could be made for enervating.

suzi: The "other side" of what?

Amos: "Until that distinction is observed personally,"
...I don't suppose you want to hear my 40 minute lecture on the equivocation involved in that use of "observed"....No? Right-O, then!

katlaughing: That's why black cats were in the 'maybe' list with Athena and turtles... ;>). But, since all the cats I have known have had a bit of bad luck associated with them, perhaps it's a Universal Truth, but a trivial one?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:13 PM

Perhaps we are all Universal Truths AND trivial ones, Bill.:-)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:21 PM

.....maybe....

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

That's ok, Bill. We don't get to use enervating very often. :)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

In the place where you are, can you see a bright light?
Go towards the light. It's OK to cross over.

GO    TOWARDS       THE LIGHT

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

arrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! I just hit my nose on the floor lamp!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:05 PM

Sorry, didn't mean to post that, my mouse has died and I was trying to teach myself how to do things with the keyboard. Just friggin' round as it were. I was trying to do a preview but it submitted. Again, sorry. Ignore that. Still don't know how to do a preview.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

From Artful Codger: Originally, reincarnation was part of the orthodox Christian beliefs and scriptures. However, Constantine had all biblical references to it expunged because he felt that people needed a stronger spiritual goad, a greater sense of urgency.

I understood that Constantine only removed it because he was influenced by his favourite mistress/girlfriend/concubine who belonged to a sect that didn't include reincarnation in their beliefs. Otherwise it would still be in Christianity.
If we aren't reincarnated, how come a brand-new baby knows so much? Just look into those new eyes and see the wisdom there already.
I reckon I knew a lot more before the church and school system knocked it out of me!
But I'm a lot older and wiser now.
Don't ever stop looking for your truth, even if it takes a lifetime!
Robyn

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:15 PM

My fault. Sorry Bill. But I guess there's no going back.

Or is there?

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:20 PM

I would have thought that reincarnation was what Jesus was talking about when he said he'd be back. Later interpreted as the resurrection.

(Preview - spacebar)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:23 PM

You know then feelings of deju vu you get sometimes? Have I said that before? Ah well, never mind.

When I was a lad I was on holiday on the Isle of Man. I had a dream one night about the end of the world. There were lights flashing and bells sounding. A cross was emblazoned in red on the skyline and people were screaming 'It's the end of the world, the end of the world!'

A couple of days later we went to the 'Fairie Glen'. The rest of the family wandered around the main path but me, being a 13 year old rebel, went futher afield. End result was I got lost and we ended up getting a much later tram back to Douglas. The tram was crowded and being the days when people didn't care if their kids were not in sight me and my little sister, Eileen and even littler brother, Stephan, were pushed to the front just behind the driver.

As we got into the outskirts of Douglas I could see a red neon cross on a hillside (It's still there btw) and something started to seem familiar. The bell on the tram started to clang and as the trolley arm lost its contact with the overhead power lines the lights flashed on and off. Just then the driver anounced 'It's the end of the line, the end of the line!'

Explanation? Of this post - Easy. Half a bottle of Grouse. Of the events at the time. Still don't know. But I'm sure there must be a good one.

:D (tG)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 06:26 PM

Those who seek for more convincing evidence of reincarnation may want to check out the books written by Ian Stevenson, M. D.. I ahve nto read them, yet, but they certainly sound interesteing, esp. this one:

Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect
by Ian Stevenson

Children who claim to remember a previous life have been found in many parts of the world, particularly in the Buddhist and Hindu countries of South Asia, among the Shiite peoples of Lebanon and Turkey, the tribes of West Africa, and the American northwest. Stevenson has collected over 2,600 reported cases of past-life memories of which 65 detailed reports have been published. Specific information from the children's memories has been collected and matched with the data of their former identity, family, residence, and manner of death. Birthmarks or other physiological manifestations have been found to relate to experiences of the remembered past life, particularly violent death. Writing as a specialist in psychiatry and as a world-renowned scientific investigator of reported paranormal events, Stevenson asks us to suspend our Western tendencies to disbelieve in "reincarnation" and consider the reality of the burgeoning record of cases now available. This book summarizes Stevenson's findings which are presented in full in the multi-volume work entitled. Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects, also published by Praeger.

Here's a bit about him:
        
Ian Stevenson, M.D. is Director, Division of Personality Studies and Carlson Professor of Psychiatry, both a part of the Department of Psychiatric Medicine, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, Virginia. He is the pre-eminent researcher in the study of reincarnation as well as being the leading scientist studying children who claim to remember previous lives. He has also made important studies of telepathy, near-death experiences, apparitions ("death-bed visions"), the mind-brain problem, and the survival of human personality after death.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skarpi
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 08:11 PM

Well " I was a munk irish one " and then again " I was a
flightfighter " and now I Skarpi Iceland how about that ??

WHY do i get memories from this ?? Now you think I am
for sure " crazy " ?? heheheheh

And another thing -what kind of people are " us " I mean
why do I meet people witch have same faith as I ? are they one of " us " witch I say we are
those who note more a attention to each other than others around us ? why cant I talk about this whith who ever I like to ? with out getting this prase " no you are crazy men " there are no such thing around us " ???'

I med up with two person at the Getaway last year and both of them
are like " us " there are so much of brightnes around their
body and one of them can heal they are a good souls

My English is no good and sometimes i am having trouble
finding right words to what I like to say .

I got a book Called " ANAM CARA " friend of the soul or soul friend
in English I think , its about celtic faith among other things
and this book (affectiv )? I hope this a right word here :>)
me alot .

well what ever anyone say about what I believe I will hold on to my believe,
am I christian ?? or am i a person who are always looking for something out there ??? or am I pagan ?? at the moment I am in
the luthern church here in Iceland but every year I get far far
away from the luthern faith ............


well I´ll stop now I can say a lot more , but I am only thinking
uploud......


All the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 08:16 PM

I don't recall seeing you in any of those past lives, Bill...but then, I haven't seen you yet in this life either.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 08:26 PM

indeed, Little Hawk...I might be a composite PhotoShop creation, with posts done by the same guy who wrote the clever "Shambles" program. But I'm not.....we know people who have met BOTH of us and will (probably) admit to it...In person, I am mild manned & polite...*wicked grin*

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

I believe it. ;-) Now, what about that Shambles program? Amazing, isn't it? Only a genius-level programmer could have put that one together.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:14 PM

I understand what you are saying Skarpi.

One day-many years ago-when I was feeling very low, I got the urge to create a word collage. What I called 'word collages' were spontaneously created sayings or poems that I made by cutting out letters and words from old magazines & newspapers. The letters & words were different sizes, colors, and fonts. I'd lay the cut out letters and words on cardboard and then glue them to that carboard creating what thoughts came to me.

I don't have that word collage that I made that night, but I still remember most of the poem that I composed in that manner:

Man running around in circles
Life raining hurting. Why?
Never fear the way you see.
Know the power of the mind-
it's what it takes to free yourself
In dark days roll with the punches...

-snip-


That poem had at least one more line. But for some reason, I can't remember it. But each of the lines that I do remember are full of meaning for me.

Scarpi, I hope you will not fear the way you see. I hope that you will not doubt the power of your mind for it's what it takes to free your self.

All the best to you,

Azizi

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:34 PM

Skarpi there are many who will say you are crazy or maybe just mislead, because there is no proof for what you believe, and there are many phonies who will use such beliefs for their own destructive purposes.
This does not necessarily mean you are crazy or mislead, it just means that some people don't believe it.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Aug 06 - 10:42 PM

What about just not knowing, and accepting that we just don't know?
    That doesn't mean we don't continue to try to know more and understand more, and as we learn or know more revise our beliefs and theories based on new knowledge. Over and over again, in our attempts at understanding 'how things work'and what is the underlying 'truth', principles' or scientific 'laws', what we had previously come to accept as 'fact' or 'truth' based on the most advanced knowledge of the day, continuously has proved to be only one step toward a further understanding, or even away from understanding, back into mystery again.
    Bill, I don't have the training in philosphy that you do, but however precisely one attempts to assign meaning to a word or concept, one will rarely, if ever, find universal agreement about that definition or concept. It seems to me that your position is also based on 'belief'.
    'Belief' is about accepting as true what we do not have enough information to know to be fact. 'Belief' is universal to the human experience and necessary to be able to function in the world, because none of us have the time or capacity to look for 'proof' of everything. It is necessary, to a certain extent, to operate as if many of our 'beliefs' are fact. But I think it important to recognize when we are operating out of 'belief' and assumption. Many beliefs may turn out to also be true, they are just not necessarily true.

    'Magic' that is not trickery or illusion is simply a phenomena that we don't yet understand.

Uhhh...I guess this has turned into thread drift. Sorry. And I bet some one on some thread has said pretty much the same thing before.

Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: skarpi
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:49 AM

Or people have fair with the unknown and like Jane said a phenomena that we don't yet understand, behind the other door is something
that we have not jet learned to understand.??

I once had a dream about a woman I know and at the time she had cancer in
he body and the dream is like this :I lead in a long hallway
and its was long and I remember the light it was so bright
I have never in my short live time seen such a light it was
a amacing, well after a little walk we got into a room
and on the floor were three bodys ( dead ) there was an sheet on
them a white one . The sheet was taken off and there was my
grandmother and grandfather and their doughter witch is this
woman and there was so much peace around them ..........
Then I was walked out again and dream ended. Well to day
there are no cancer in her body .

So who were the message ?? that she would be okei ?? or was this
just a lesson for me ???

what do you think ?.


Azizi I was afraid at first but now I do not fair " I try to learn from this " .

All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:06 AM

I don't think I would like it.

imagine, you come back as an earwig or something, and all your pals are having a party. No one offers you a drink, cos you're an earwig.

and another thing how does god get you to agree. after all I'm a very conservative dresser. basically everything from the two quid counter at Matalan.

and god says to you, Al - put on the earwig suit. they're talking about you down there - go an listen, incognito as an earwig. then its downstairs with a red hot poker up the roozle for a million years - you did some bad stuff.

no wonder religion's dying out.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:53 AM

I think the Budhist version is very unfair. You are THAT close to Nirvana when you indvertantly step on a worm and have to start again. So sad...

Would the Welsh version be Llyf, Di and Cwm bach?

Cheers

DtF

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 10:02 AM

Skarpi, I think that the dreamer is the best interpreter of his or her dreams. This is partly so because individuals have their own dream language. For instance, when I'm in troubled. I often dream about there being lots of snow on my street. But when things get better, I dream of the snow melting on the street. Given that you live in a land where there is alot of snow, Skarpi, the symbol of snow probably means a completely different thing to you than to me.

So, Skarpi, I'm not sure what your dream meant besides what you say it means. Often the real meaning of the dream is the first one that you think of. And I believe that it's very important to take note of anye things that you don't say when you are telling that dream to other people. That thing [or things] may be some of the most important part{s} of the dream.

At least for me, when I think of what a particular dream means, if it feels like something "clicked" in my head or heart or soul-maybe all three of them, then I know that meaning is the right one.

Maybe that happens for others too, I don't know.

Positive vibrations,

Azizi

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:00 PM

Sorry to all my friends in the west - The middle one should be Dai, of course!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 12:38 PM

What you are objecting to, Weelittledrummer, in your "earwig" example is the most primitive form of reincarnation belief imaginable...and a form that is held by a minority of people who believe in reincarnation these days.

It would be comparable to the most primitive forms of Christian or Islamic fundamentalism.

Basically, spiritual evolution is thought to work quite similarly to the natural evolution of species....in fact the one would be the extension or reflection of the other. They would work hand in hand.

Which is to say: less complex forms (and consciousnesses) tend to evolve over time into more complex forms (and consciousnesses). They do not devolve. So...you would only be likely to come back as an earwig if you were already as limited in consciousness as an earwig is.

You may actually BE that limited in consciousness, of course. ;-) Who am I to say? But I seriously doubt it.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:07 PM

Skarpi, it was a great day in my life when I suddenly realized and accepted that I will meet the people I need to know, go through the situations I must have, face and solve problems that will have the most meaning to me and will find myself in the right place where I need to be- without conscious effort or manipulation by me.

I had one of those watersheds moments several years ago when one of my sisters died. It was unexpected; her ailments were not life threatening so far as we knew. She was in a wheelchair because her knees were so bad but she was happy and talkative and teasing when I flew south and with my family went to see her at the nursing home. And the next day she died.

See, I was dithering about trying to decide whether I should leave Alaska and return to Oregon because I and my birth family are ageing and I knew that I didn't want to have a sibling die and have me fly down for the funeral and then home again, to be repeated numerous times.

But when that sister died I suddenly realized that each time that I need to be there, I will find myself there. I don't have to make the decision.

Speaking of meeting people I need to know- I treasure them.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 01:56 PM

who knows, an earwig might be a more highly developed than us. its not us thats setting this agenda. if there is an agenda.

I have no objection to spirituality, its just a gear that I don't go into easily. I don't have that easy access to those emotions.

i wouldn't be surprised if God had an earwig suit lined up for me, I never did get on with bosses.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 02:29 PM

ANother thing to keep in mind is that there is a lot of machinery in play with the general effort to push spiritual understandings into compliance with the forms of material perception. The result of this is a lot of crude invalidation along the lines of "What you THINK you see must be imagination, can't be real, doesn't conform, isn't normal, can't be proved and must be wrong...." and so on. The ideal of this sort of effort is to make the individual behave more like a material object.

Don't buy it. Be true to your own awareness and perception, and remember that crude invalidative messages like these are the biggest wooden nickel on the market.

And you know what they say about wooden nickels. Don't take any.

Love,


A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 03:06 PM

God is not your boss, Weelittledrummer. The concept of bosses is one limited to competitive creatures such as human beings, dogs (pack animals), and goats (herd animals). God is simply the ocean in which you, the fish, is swimming. The ocean is powerful all right, but it has no orders for you to follow, no demands to be met, no punishments to mete out upon the disobedient. No axe to grind, in other words.

Oh, there are consequences for foolish acts, all right, but those just happen automatically...cause and effect. That's karma. There's no one casting judgement upon you, but if you drink too much, you'll still get a hangover. Cause and effect, that's all. The wise avoid foolish actions for this reason, and practice moderation. The reckless charge in, heedless of the cost.

Either way, it's your choice. That's what I call freedom. ;-)

"God" grants total freedom, within the obvious limitations of physical existence as we know it. People make a million laws and rules, and they take it away, bit by bit.

The worst thing I ever saw done to my freedom as a living being was being put in "school" against my own will from the age of 7. Preparation for a life of slavery is what that really was.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 03:50 PM

Something I have not heard articulated is the fact that religion- indeed, spirituality itself - is by its very nature subjective in its perception and experience. Mainstream teaching is stuffed with ideas that subsequently became accepted as inflexible dogma.

There are churches for instance, who note Saints Days and other meaningful notions by attaching them to particular days that they have agreed upon. (Not unlike Christmas itself. The 'Immaculate Conception' of Mary is an accepted idea that the powers thought explained the sitution.)

I remember years ago when I was actively pursuing understanding and listened one day to Rex Humbard, a television evangelist. He said, scornfully, You can't pick and choose. You can't say, I believe this and I don't believe that. You must accept the plan of salvation without question.

Well, I knew right then that was nonsense. Because that is precisely what the powers did; they picked and chose.

In my opinion.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 03:51 PM

I remember reading or hearing somewhere, a mention that the Dali Lama and other Buddhists were careful to take good care of the dogs which lived at the Potala in Tibet as some were believed to be reincarnated monks.

While I agree mostly with what LH has said about consciousness evolving and I liken it to going up the spiral of consciousness, on different spiritual planes, I rather like the idea that I have either already been a cat and/or may come back as one, again.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 03:56 PM

" Bill, I don't have the training in philosphy that you do, but however precisely one attempts to assign meaning to a word or concept, one will rarely, if ever, find universal agreement about that definition or concept. It seems to me that your position is also based on 'belief'."

Janie...your post deserves a thoughtful, carefully worded reply. I'm not sure I can do it justice without boring you...

I have had that basic point made before by Little Hawk, Amos...etc...that I simply 'believe' something different. You ARE, of course, correct that we do not find "universal agreement about that definition or concept", but that is not quite the point.

(I just sat here, eating my lunch, and tried for 10 minutes to decide which of 4-5 different directions to go and what to begin with....)

...well...take the word 'belief' to start. What does it even mean to say "I believe"? In one sense, it indicates a different mental state than "I know". In another usage, it can simply indicate "this is my best guess, and I'm going to operate 'as if' it is the case until I get better information". There are a number of ways to explain common uses of that..and other..slippery words.
What *I* mean usually, is that 'believe' indicates a condition in which one specifically does NOT know. In the issues we often debate here, some folks are saying "I believe IN" something....this may be Jesus, telepathy, astrology, reincarnation, ghosts.....etc..etc..
   Naturally, some folks immediately reply "Nonsense!" to a lot of these 'beliefs'...meaning, I presume, that they do NOT 'believe' in the claimed phenomenon.
The problem is, each side often means more: claiming that their view IS 'true' or 'valid' or 'obvious'. You have seen this; "I KNOW my Jesus" or "That is obvious rubbish...no rational person would believe that if they really thought about it!"

What I often try to do in my interminable way...*grin*.. is to show where the USE of a word is either ambiguous, careless, equivocating, or sometimes just plain meaningless in certain contexts. You said that my "position is also based on belief", but some concepts have nothing to do with 'belief'...we don't 'believe' that 2+2=4; this is a definition. If one claims otherwise, we ask them what they MEAN. Are they referring to a different number base system? Is it a trick? (2 pints of some liquids mixed with 2 of some other liquids are not = to 4 pints, as their molecular structure allows them to intermix in less space) I have trick where I say "half of twelve is seven" and when someone says "that's impossible" I show them this XII ....XII.....cute, huh? I am 'equivocating' on the concept of 'half'.

In the same way, people use terms when they really do not realize what they are claiming, or state badly exactly what it is they wish to claim. This is understandable and natural, as not everyone gets it pounded into them in a class setting (like I did)what those subtle points are! But the result is, that most folks get the notion that IF it is just the case that 'beliefs' are just personal & subjective, then THEIR belief is just as good (valid, true, etc) as anyone else's....and then comes the 'feeling' that "just as good" means "probably true"......and "probably true" can easily mean 'worth fighting about', with all the implications that follow. See why I am concerned about how folks 'think' and how they communicate and defend their thinking?

What my "position" is, is that certain concepts are not subject to personal and 'subjective' definitions....that in order to debate and explore and discuss some topics, we MUST adopt the precise language and definitions that Mathematicians, Logicians and Philosophers have worked out over the centuries. Otherwise, we talk past each other and argue 'till we're blue in the face, each thinking the other is close-minded, ignorant, biased or just plain dumb!

I just read a discussion about whether my 'vocation', woodturning, is an 'art' or a 'craft'...I have read similar debates about whether some "form" is 'beautiful', and whether some behavior is 'fair' or 'nice'......yeah, it's not hard to explain how awkward it is in those cases to show that folks are 'equivocating' and using definitions differently, but ask about "heaven' or 'spirit' or 'mind' or 'God' or 'reincarnation', and folks often not only use the words differently, but often have no real idea what the concept might refer to! We get questions like: "Will we meet our pets in Heaven?" with little thought about what "heaven" might be, and what aspects of ourselves or our pets would be DOING this meeting. We assume that because there is a linguistic construct there is some corresponding reality. Plato did something similar and based his entire philosophy on it....he suggested that every thing that IS merely 'imitates' some 'eternal form'.....and this general notion has permeated Western thought for a couple thousand years.... the IDEA that some 'realm' can exist beyond the clunky one we inhabit is ingrained in us and much of our language....it just "ain't necessarily so".

Can I summarize all that? *sigh*....not easily...wasn't even half done...*wry grin*....but here's a try:
...It is a very different thing from saying "I do not accept your belief" to saying "your belief is wrong"....I cannot **DISPROVE** anyone's metaphysical beliefs, but that does not mean they are correct UNLESS I can disprove them.
--->> What I use to comment on various claims, beliefs, ideas and definitions is not, in itself, a belief<<---...It is a system of analysis agreed on by experts to objectively examine claims, not to make claims. Sometimes this analysis indicates that the claim and/or its defense is weak.....then one has to examine whether the claim or its defense can be improved in any way....and what it means if it can't!
   

We humans are very complex creatures...most organisms can't even consider these questions. We have spent a couple of hundred thousand years living in fear & superstition and only in the last 3000 years or so have we been able to even phrase the questions so we could LOOK for answers....is there any doubt that the superstitions that filled our early development should influence our attempts at answers?
   In my opinion, we must do as Descartes did, and 'doubt' all presumed answers...then see if reason can restore any of them.
It ain't easy....it's easier to just pick something comfortable and wrap it around us, and I agree that everyone does some of this in order to function, but some issues are just too important to take on faith or authority.......and everyone has to decide how hard they are willing to work to sort out the trickier parts.

I don't work half as hard as I ought to at it....I wish I could do better at explain it all...

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:37 PM

All knowledge derives from postulated realities about which one has certainty, Bill. The distinction you are making is not between knowledge and belief, but between the genuine beliefs which inform one's perceptions, and the social or pretended believes one gives oral subscription to.   Believing one exists, believing in gravity, believing one is in space are all deepseated beliefs, and asserting they are not so is a pretense, like that of the faith-healer who dislikes what he fancies he feels.

Your Cartesian approach is a good one, especially for dealing with systems like geometry, math and material science, where it works to "prove by challenge" and where reason has a relatively simple role to play.

But reason is, itself, a construct in which one believes. It includes for example a premise about time, about perception, and about the nature of if-then relationships about which one must not presume ownership. They have to be postulated as externals or the sandbox falls apart.

This is the formula of success in dealing with the mechanics of things of a material nature; but these requirements are not the same as truth. And, they get much less robust when you apply them to issues of awareness, creation, perception, intentionality, and the like, none of which have any role to play in the sandbox, and are preferred to be ignored whilke operating within it.

A

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:40 PM

"but some issues are just too important to take on faith or authority......."

Ah. Bill? Since you truly do not 'believe' the perceptions and experiences that others of us do, in what way is this issue "too important to take on faith or authority"?

If your view is correct and when we die, that's it, then there was no issue worth bothering about. If the other view is correct and we get to give you a hug beyond...?

You know, a great many accepted views are inaccurate. For instance, I know you will agree that just a single exception to an aphorism negates the the aphorism, i.e. Black people can't swim (as I've heard it said!) then the first Black person you see swimming makes nonsense of the aphorism.

OK. Have you heard that horses are dumber and more unteachable than most other animals? Since I have known TWO horses in my life that were astonishingly attuned to human expectations and needs I cannot agree with that 'truism'. I KNOW that if a horse wishes to please you, at least some horses are capable of incredible understanding.

My brother told me that he can't imagine why he had previously been of the firm belief that there was no such thing as thought transference or valid extra sensory reports. A couple of experiences of his own set him back on his heels.

The 'mystery', by its very nature, is not easily graspable.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 04:42 PM

I'm sure there are some cases of human souls coming back in animal bodies, Kat, I just think that most human souls are more likely to come back as humans...but...if a soul wanted to be a dog or cat in a given life and had good reason for the experience...then why not? I also think there are cases where an animal soul crosses the line and reincarnates as a human being. That again is evolution in process.

In the case of earwigs, though, it's a long stretch... ;-) I think an earwig might be more likely to come back as a grasshopper or a praying mantis, perhaps.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 05:30 PM

-Thanks, Bill. To the extent that I get your meaning, I agree with you.

Now, I'm about to take a deep breath and wade in to stuff that is way over my head. It appears to me that metaphysics is about the use of metaphor to make meaning out of the incredible amount of phenomena and experience for which we do not have sufficient 'facts' to logically define, and also as psychological defense to keep anxiety about survival at bay. I understand 'spirit', 'soul', 'god' etc. as metaphor. I consider belief systems about the same to also be metaphor. "Chunky stuff", i.e. matter, is not metaphor. However, as science continues to explore the nature of matter and energy, we find we have to continually revise our understanding of what matter is, what its attributes are, what are the laws that govern it. One day, we may factually understand consciousness, and at that point metaphors such as spirit and soul will no longer be useful. It is likely, however, that we will then have awareness of additional phenomena to which we are currently oblivious, but for which we have not yet discovered or developed the knowledge base to understand, and there will be new metaphors to make meaning of those.

Therefore, I think it reasonable and logical to conclude that we just don't know what happens after what we call death, and the most we can say about it is that it is a mystery.

Janie



Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:35 PM

"Spirit" and "soul" are indeed metaphors, Janie. They are metaphors for thought. Everything is made of thought, and it is thought that both forms and informs matter. Matter is a thought that has been slowed down enough to be perceivable by what we term "the physical senses".

"God" is also a metaphor. It's a metaphor for the one original thought, the summation of all thoughts, the origin of all thoughts, and the power of all thoughts. Since it is thought that created the Universe, "God" is characterized as the Creator. Most people see "the Creator" as a larger and more powerful reflection of themselves, so they clothe God with human characteristics, just a thinking reptile might clothe God with reptilian characteristics.

God is beyond human or reptilian or any other such specific defining terms, being simply pure thought, in essence. Thought also manifests as light...hence...to be "enlightened". A thought appearing in a thoughtless void is a light appearing in the darkness. A void is simply a lack of anything. Thought can fill that void, give it meaning and form, and manifest itself in any way whatsoever.

;-)

(and now I await Bill's gigantic philosophical response to that....)

"Where is your PROOF???????"   (smile)

Does a drop of water attempt to prove the existence of the limitless ocean of which it is one infinitesimal part? No. If it is like most other drops of water, it is so fixated upon its own tiny concerns and desires, and the actions of its immediate neighbours, that it is barely even aware the ocean exists. Nevertheless, the ocean continues to provide a grand and generous field for the water droplet to act out its little dramas upon. (one of those dramas being "the search for proof" when the droplet has made an assertion or is questioning the assertion of another droplet)

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:45 PM

LH, I accept that you believe everything is made of thought. And mayhaps it will prove true one day. But it is still belief as opposed to fact. I suspect that your use of 'thought' is also a metaphor for something that is not yet understood.



Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:54 PM

Ebbie...yep, I have commented several times that it ain't fair that if I am right, I don't get to say "I told you so!" *grin*...but on the other hand, if YOU are right, you get to gloat for eternity!

Still....as far as we can prove, we get ONLY this life....and whether we do or whether we get infinite lives, we have to live this one, and as I said up there about suicide bombers, the details of what people believe ABOUT 'eternity' and the rules for getting there affect how they behave in this life, and thus affect you, me and the very fabric of our being! I HATE being threatened by other folks superstitions and off-the-wall interpretations of doubtful texts. You make a point about Rex Humbard...I consider that G. Bush may LISTEN to 'ol Rex and his ilk!


Janie...all that stuff may be "over your head" as far as technical language and detailed analysis, but you do have a knack for it. Your statement about metaphysics is really very insightful and remarkably close to what happens as we attempt to get a grasp on both existence, and how to TALK about existence. Indeed, the language of 'spirit', 'soul' & 'god' are quite useful to provide 'color' to our feelings and expressions of wonder. I use them myself, but always with the understanding that they ARE metaphor....and most everyone that knows me is aware that I don't specifically refer to a 'soul' that has proven objective reality apart from and in some other 'realm' than my body.

Do I think it's worth asking whather there might be objective truth to the notion of other 'realms' and 'spirits'? Sure...as long as we don't assume the answer in the very way we phrase the question.

Right above, Little Hawk states: "I'm sure there are some cases of human souls coming back in animal bodies,...".......mercy! Look at the embedded premises in that simple opinion. 1) There are souls 2) they can be separate(d) from bodies. 3) they can re-enter bodies 4) The supply of souls is unlimited, since there are enough for 6 billion people AND 'some' animals...etc... (There are other implicit assumptions about 'location' & 'status' of souls which have NOT re-entered bodies and some serious ambiguities about whether all souls which ARE now in bodies have been previously in OTHER bodies...and what this does to the 'soul inventory'.)

   The point is, L.H. may BE correct, but such statements are ONLY personal beliefs, even though they are presented as givens.

It is that "this is how it works" attitude that concerns me, and why I wish for a more careful expression of the concepts.

Up there ^ I made a long attempt to suggest the adoption of precise language for discussing these things. In the physical realm, we immediately see the need for a "bureau of standards" to define exactly what a 'yard' or 'meter' is...or what makes a 'pound'...Actual examples are kept in safe places, just in case...and we don't let just anyone sell us a tape measure with his own opinion of how long an inch is. The length of a second is determined by measuring the decay of Cesium atoms...we KNOW these things because WE define them, then secure the definition. In the same way, the mathematicians, philosophers etc. have spent considerable time working out 'standards' for examining claims and the language that we need to compare notes ABOUT the claims.
If someone makes a claim that obviously breaks the rules for stating a reasonable hypothesis, we may be forgiven if we doubt...whether we can prove him wrong or not.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:58 PM

(and while I was composing, Janie made my point MUCH more succinctly than I would have..*grin*)Your 'drop of water' metaphor really does not address the point you tried to make.

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 06:59 PM

Reincarnation: The ultimate in recycling . . . .

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 07:30 PM

I'm with Bill on this one. Bill will no doubt castigate me for taking this position without rigorous proof but - hey, so what?

My current 'soul-analogy' is with a candle-flame. A flame isn't a 'thing', it's a process. But it looks like a thing, you can feel it (ouch), it responds to its surroundings, it can change its surroundings, but it's not a thing, it's the manifestation of chemical changes in the candle. The chemical changes in the brain are vastly more complicated than those in a candle, so the brain's 'flame', the soul, is more complex than a candle flame. But it is still not a 'thing', it's a process. And 'thought' is just a flicker of that flame. So no, I don't buy LH's basic premise that 'everything is made of thought'. That isn't a 'given' for me.

So, where does the candle flame go when it burns out? Same place the soul goes, I reckon. Of course I can't PROVE this, but I've never encountered anything to convince me otherwise. And I do recognise that this world isn't here for my benefit, so I don't expect 'the truth' to be comfortable. Just because a belief in an immortal soul someday may turn out to be helpful for me, wouldn't make it true. Our beliefs are facts about us, not about the universe.

I do accept that my 'belief' may well be wrong, so at least I'm not going to shoot everyone who doesn't share it. And since I don't believe we survive, I don't really think it matters, so - 'whatever helps you get through the day' - I just share the concern that others may try to force their tenets on me in the belief that they have to destroy my body to save my soul. THAT is the point at which belief begins to matter.

All badly put, as I'm sure people will be quick to tell me, but - you did ask.

Andrew

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Janie
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:12 PM

As a psychotherapist, metaphor is my stock-in-trade. Much of the work is about helping people find the tools (and then to learn how to use them) to begin to identify their beliefs about themselves, others and the world. The first, and in many ways, the most important step in the process is to learn to recognize that much that we treat as truth is actually belief. The next step is to acquire the tools and learn the skills to exam those beliefs to determine if they work for the person and the survival of the species in terms of being able to function adequately or well in their lives, relationships and the larger society. If not, then they work toward altering those beliefs using a variety of techniques and tools, including socratic reasoning. More simply, I try to help people answer the question "Do my beliefs facilitate my ability to live life on life's terms?" (and do they allow others to do the same.) Metaphor is one of the most powerful tools of the trade, and in deciding on intervention strategies, I am constantly striving to find metaphors that work within a person's over-all paradigm.

I agree, Bill, that failure to recognize the difference between belief and objective reality causes much woe, not just for civilization, but for the individual.

Janie

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 08:18 PM

"Still....as far as we can prove, we get ONLY this life"

It comes for free, a gift. Now people want more? Sheesh!

Subject: RE: So do we live to die and comeback ....?
From: John O'L
Date: 12 Aug 06 - 09:37 PM

I have nothing mathematical, scholarly or even logical to offer, but the most accessable incident I can think of which keeps me believing is my daughter's first day in the school band.

She is a very reserved girl, not shy, but careful. Like her dad, she prefers to know exactly where she's going before she goes. The first band rehearsal that year for some reason was not in the hall but the library and when we walked in there were about thirty kids with instrument cases all over the place, some assembling their instruments, some setting up their music stands, some already seated and warming up, others apparently just walking or standing around talking, and parents, at least of most of the beginners all trying to find a spot not too much in someobody's way.

A riotous cacophony of sound and movement, I was intimidated by it and I knew that she would be too. But where was she? She'd found a bit of floor space for her trombone (which was at that time nearly as big as herself), had opened her case and was assembling it as natural as you like. She then took it to a chair and stood it on its bell on the chair, went back for her music and stand, set them up, sat down and waited calmly.

She had not looked for a lead from what others were doing, and neither did she wade in and bluff her way through. She simply fitted in, and watching her do it there was only one conclusion possible for me: She's done this before.

It is worth noting alsoo that after six months she was invited to join the Intermediate Band, and after another three months, the Regional Band. I won't bore you with the significance of these achievements except to say she still (Four years later) holds the record as the youngest ever member of the Regional Band.