BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body

Subject: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Alba
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 09:54 PM

I saw a documentary quite a while ago about Plastination and the Doctor who created the process, which uses real Human Bodies. His work in showing the anatomy of the Human Body was to me, at first, shocking but after a while it struck me as very beautiful really.

I heard tonight on the Radio that Dr. Gunther von Hagens is opening an exhibition at the Museum of Science in Boston called BODY WORLDS 2: The Anatomical Exhibition of Real Human Bodies.
So I went to the MoS site and was reminded of the shock I first felt when I realised what I was seeing and then came a sense of awe at just how wonderful our Bodies are.
Here's is a link to the MoS site featuring the Exhibition page: Clicky thingy

Has anyone been to one of Dr. von Hagens exhibitions and saw this fascinating process up close?

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:07 PM

I live near Boston, and it's been all over the local papers, television, etc. Thus far I only know a few people who have seen it, notably a med student friend of my (adult) niece. My niece went along with her, and was fascinated albeit somewhat weirded out; her friend found it more straightforwardly compelling...I must confess my own feelings about the whole business are pretty mixed, and after some consideration I feel that I will NOT see it.

On the one hand, I can see the point of taking the mindful time to appreciate the beauty of the human body, and its wonder as a model of form and function...as Hamlet puts it,

""What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! how infinite in faculties! in form and moving, how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension, how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals..."

On the other hand, the manipulation of actual human remains, whether for artistic, educational, aesthetic and/or scientific effect (and especially for profit; NB that this is a ticketed exhibit at $24 a pop) strikes me as only underlining our status as the
"quintessence of dust" referred to later in the above speech; mere physical matter to be arranged, rearranged and displayed to casual observers...there's something about the whole enterprise that seems to strip away the dignity of these once-living people, and while I can well imagine what a fascinating spectacle it must be, I think I would feel uncomfortable participating in it.

Just my humble opinion, however. I'd be very interested in hearing others' take on it.

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Janie
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:19 PM

A medical ethicist who went to the exhibition did a commentary on it on NPR a day or so ago. She was somewhat surprised at her own reaction. She felt unexpectedly affronted by it. Grotesque poses, disembodied limbs, and a disrespectful atmosphere created by both the museum staff and those attending the exhibit were the main elements she cited. She came away from the exhibit feeling like the dead had been sorely dishonored.

My own thoughts about it, based on what I have read, are nearly identical to Desdemona's above.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Richard Brandenburg
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:23 PM

An issue beneath this exhibit is the dodgy source records for the cadavers from which the plastinated bodies are made. A recent article I read suggested that there are sources which are questionably ethical in their concepts of "provenance"... creating another level to ponder when looking over the "piece of work".

Sorry to seem negative to the fascination with this new technology of display, but these were folks who came from somewhere, and I can't help but wonder about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 10:43 PM

Yes, exactly; how would the families of these people feel about their loved ones' remains being used" in this way? Dodgy questions indeed.

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 11:16 PM

Without even considering whether there is any significance and/or value in the exhibit, I must say that the closest thing that I've heard in a very long time to the "spiel" at the Museum site was at the "arcade alley" where a really cheap travelling carny was providing entertainment at a small county fair. I would presume they're selling "cheap thrills" - and apparently by pretentious and exaggerated claims - rather than anything I'd be interested in.

MoMA would be a better venue, perhaps. I would have expected better of the Museum of Science, based on what I knew of them some years ago when I was in the area.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Alba
Date: 15 Aug 06 - 11:34 PM

I cannot remark on the Ethics attached to this process or to the exhibition itself.
It may be a sweeping assumption but I do not believe that the Bodies that have gone through the process of plastination and that are being shown in this exhibition were not obtained by illegal means.
I do remember from the Documentary that it was remarked that People donated their Bodies after Death to be put through this process. I remeber this because a Friend, who watched the documentary with me, and I discussed wether it was something we could consider doing with our remains. We both felt that it wasn't something we would wish to do.

I did not realise that a Carnival type atmosphere had surrounded this exhibition.
I would say that if I were in a position to visit Boston to see this exhibition I would be in two minds wether to go.
I know that when I visited the Museum of Natural History in London, which I did many times, I always felt that I could not enter the rooms where the Mummies where on display. To me looking at the Mummies taken from the Valley of the Kings in Egypt raised similiar questions as some of you have raised about Plastination. I found the thought of viewing Corpes that had been removed from their Tombs then placed in public view to be very disturbing.

This exhibition may raise ethical questions but then we look at Human bones and body parts in their natural form in Museums and never question the sources.
Some people view Film and Photographs of people that have died in War and in many other tragic and non-tragic circumstances without much thought about what the Families of the Dead feel about their Loved Ones being shown to the General Public without anything being said about who they were or what kind of life they lived.

Is this process of Plastination a 21st Century form of Mummification?
I wonder is it something that people will see and then consider it to be a process they would wish to donate their bodies too!

Thank you for your replies, it is enlightening to read what people think about this subject.
Best Wishes
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Richard Brandenburg
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:32 AM

Jude, I didn't mean to imply that this exhibiton carried any ethical taint; I have no idea about it in fact. The newspaper article that I read (glancingly, while I was supposed to be working) mentioned that there was a black market for bodies in rural China and Southeast Asia, and a market for them in medical schools and exhibitions of this type. Because I was skimming the article, I didn't retain a lot of detail. It was a news to me, though, and was sensational as an ethical issue - and that more because of the "provenance" question than the mummification itself.   

I have seen a book, I believe by the German press Taschen, of photos of bodies prepared in this fashion; it's ike a state-of-the-art anatomical catalog. Even at the distace of a photo in a book, the images are fascinating and disturbing.

It made me reflect on identity, and how we can project an identity onto - what - a rendering of tissue and bone? And yet to look at a face, and see a trace of "expression" was uncanny, as the spirit was gone from the flesh. But this had been a person.

Thanks for an interesting post, and your own thoughtful comments.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:37 AM

I go along with Desdemona on this.

I dislike anything that exploits dead animals, be it pictures made from morpho butterflies or scorpions encased in plastic. The thought of doing the same thing to people is disgusting.

Also, I read somewhere that some of the bodies were of Chinese political prisoners who had been executed.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:04 AM

I trust that people who 'enjoy' this sort of thing wouldn't mind viewing a member of their immediate family on display . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:16 AM

That sums it up pretty well Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: s&r
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:54 AM

We saw this exhibition in Blackpool. It was IMO tastefully done and not grotesque.It was remarkable (in Blackpool) for not being like a sideshow.

We learned from it, and use the illustrated book in our First Aid training.

We saw the same man in a series on Ch 4 I think dissecting corpses, with care and wonderment.

Here
is an interview with the man himself.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 02:58 AM

I believe ther was a thread on this same subject about 1 to 1 1/2 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:37 AM

old thread

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: GUEST,Necie
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 07:56 AM

"I trust that people who 'enjoy' this sort of thing wouldn't mind viewing a member of their immediate family on display . . . . "

Maybe they would not mind seeing an immediate family member preserved in this form.
Watching a deceased family member being lowered into a hole in the ground or slipping behind a curtain to be cremated is disturbing is it not?
If a loved one requested that their body be donated for plastination but the thought of viewing their departed loved one's body after the process repelled their family then the family would have no choice other than to decline viewing the result.
If it was the request of their Loved one to donate his or her body to be preserved in this manner then any objections on their part are redundant, if the family respected their loved one's wishes that is.
I trust that people who 'enjoy' this "sort of thing" would not mind viewing another human being walking around in a healthy body because they have had a vital organ replaced due to a stranger requesting that their organs be recycled after death and the stranger's family raised no objections to their loved one's request.
~N~

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 09:35 AM

I'd go see the exhibit. I don't happen to believe there's anything sacred about remains, and if the meat that's left after I'm gone could help someone in any way, I'd be happy.

My mother donated her body to a teaching hospital. While I wouldn't have wanted to see her body being disected, I think she made a good decision. There are a few doctors who learned where a pancreas is because of my mother. Most average people don't get to see people's innards, and I think it would be a good learning experience for those who choose to go.

After all, who hasn't heard the phrase, 'It's what's inside that counts'?

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:05 AM

I wholly agree that donating one's remains (after you're finished with them, that is!) to a place where they can do someone good is an extremely worthy cause, and I'm an organ donor myself. My ethical conflict viz. Plastination stems from what I can't help feeling is the whiff of exploitation inherent in publicly exhibiting the willfully manipulated remains of others for monetary remuneration; it strikes me as sort of like charging admission at a funeral parlour in te name of science, art, education, whatever..

~D

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:19 AM

There is a similar exhibit in NYC - Bodies:The Exhibition.   This exhibit has received similar protests because the bodies were obtained in China from a medical university. Critics say that the bodies may have been obtained illegally.

My 16 year old daughter went to see it with a friend. She did not find it "gross", but rather educational. This particular exhibit spends more time showing how the body works, and it also shows comparisons such as smokers lungs vs. non-smokers lungs, the brain of a stroke vicitim vs. the "normal" brain, etc.

I am concerned about the ethics of all this, but to me a cadaver is a cadaver. The bodies on display are not identified by name as far as I understand. When I'm gone, the remains do not represent who I was. Of course, that is just my opinion and I respect others who would not wish to have their corpse displayed in such a manner. I do not find it disrespectful, but I do think that the bodies should be donated by an individual when they are fully capable of making the decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Scoville
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:23 AM

The bodies are donated willingly by themselves (pre-death). If they weren't--if they were unclaimed off the street or something--it would bother me but since I assume these people knew they would be plastinated and displayed in their altogether for the public (for a fee), hey, whatever makes them happy.

BodyWorlds3 is closing soon here at the Houston Museum of Natural History. There was a BIG stink raised here by the fundamentalist faction about it being ghoulish but I didn't think it was ghoulish at all. It's not disgusting--they just look like plastic.

Mom was thrilled to see they had a polycystic kidney (she had hers removed a few years ago). I wouldn't take small children to see it but I think it's a great opportunity for older students to see anatomy, especially since so many people these days object to animal dissection. Those computer animation things just aren't the same.

And no, I wouldn't mind seeing my family members there if that's what they wanted. My mother has had a quadruple bypass, several dialysis accesses, a nephrectomy, and a kidney transplant--she would be a very, very, interesting plastination, and very educational.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: s&r
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 12:18 PM

Here are some illustrations. The atmosphere of interest and respect that I felt in the exhibition can't be shown: nor can the ability to walk round the exhibits. The selection of exhibits in the link is not IMO particularly representative.

I admire the courage of the donors. I find nothing grotesque in such devices.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: eleanor c
Date: 16 Aug 06 - 10:17 PM

Because I make anatomical waxworks I was lucky enough to have dinner with Prof Von Hagens a couple of years ago in the UK. He's a kind and workaholic character driven by a desire to perfect his craft, to spread knowledge and to popularise the field. His technical innovations ( he has perfected, but not invented , plastination) are to my mind one of the great advances of our time. His best plastinates are very original deconstructed views of the body which enhance your sense of the 3rd dimension and the elegance of the structures. His less successful ones are cartoony and a bit undignified. But then, it's more or less figurative sculpture, which is a lifetime's study in itself, never mind all the dissection and chemistry he has to do! In person he's not as odd as the media would portray him, and spends a lot of time discussing chemicals which were a bit beyond me.

Actually the preservation of real specimens is not at all new. At the veterinary museum D'Alfort in Paris are displays by Honore Fragonard, cousin of the more famous painter Fragonard, from the 18th century, of whole human and animal dissections, including a horse and rider, and Sampson with the Ass's Jaw, and I think a llama. No one is too sure how he made them even now. They are spectacular, haunting and, as artworks, more powerful by far than modern Plastinates. http://musee.vet-alfort.fr/

Richard I think the Taschen book you saw is Encyclopedia Anatomica, which is all handmade waxworks , not plastinates, from the Museo della Specola in Florence, 17th - 18th century works by various hands including the fascinating Zumbo. But that's another story!
Also not to be missed are the Towne waxworks, made by a combination of casting and wax modelling ,by Joseph Towne in the 19th century, at the Gordon museum in Londonhttp://www.kcl.ac.uk/teares/gktvc/vc/gordon/index.html

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: GUEST,ivy
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 01:56 AM

I decided at a very young age that when I die, the last (and possibly most valuable) gift I'd have left to give would be my body, and so be it. This is very clear to me. I have never felt confusion or mixed feelings at all about this matter, not even as a child.

To me, a body is just that. My memory will live on in those who knew and loved me, it won't be trapped in a casket beneath a tombstone. To me, that's a far more disturbing notion, and so devoid of hope. What one leaves on earth can help to train new doctors, and in the case of this exhibit, inspire a new generation of young scientists, and give awestruck spectators a newfound respect for their bodies and health. It's all I could ever hope for.

If my family and friends cannot understand my motives, and refuse to be comforted by the fact that this is what I want, then they never really knew me. Those who loved me most could come visit and remember me as a staunch advocate for education and the sciences, and as somebody who just wanted to help. They would remember me for who I truly was.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:16 AM

When I saw the exhibition in London, it was intersting to observe the nuumber of medical students (evidenced by their conversation) among the mostly appreciative viewers.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: jacqui.c
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 08:58 AM

I saw the London exhibition a couple of years ago and found it fascinating.I was with a friend who had had damage to her spleen and we spent some time finding the body showing the spleen so that she could see what had been causing all her problems. The real work of art for me was the body showing the blood vessels, an amazing filigree of red in human form. It really was beautiful.

I would agree that it is essential that the corpses must be from consenting adults, but I felt much more uneasy going round the site at Pompeii and seeing the casts taken of the people in their death throes there. That really did make me feel like a voyeur. It would probably be the same with mummies - these were people who expected their remains to be left undisturbed.

Subject: Obit: The Body Worlds
From: JedMarum
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:58 PM

Anyone seen this exibit; The Body Worlds?? I went today and was bowled over. What a great exibit!! The whole thing was artfully and tastefully done. Very very interesting and enlightening.

I remember hearing some noise over the concept when it first started to show - but I suspect that was made up controversy - the sort of thing you do to get free publicity. There is nothing irreverent or insulting about this exibit. It is beautifully done - well worth the big ticket price.

---

Message moved from duplicate thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:12 PM

I went with two friends who were fascinated. They took three hours to observe every vein and muscle. I, on the other hand, went through the whole exhibit in 20 minutes. I didn't find it gross because their were no fluids. It was sort of like looking at a pile of dry leaves.

What I did find interesting was my dispassionate response and the curiosity of others. I actually saw a grown man faint while looking at a rectum. Very strange! I then sat down on a bench with a couple who were also slightly bored and waiting for others. We discussed the artistic value of the exhibit and the time and effort of the artist.

Who would devote their life to such an endeavor? Did he work in a wharehouse or a barn surrounded by his creations? Why did he position the bodies the way he did? Many were grotesque representations in the name of art. I especially disliked the way he ripped the spine from the original position and "artistically" curled it into spiral. Why? Whats the point?

Anyway, it was boring for me but my friends liked it.

Subject: RE: BS: Plastination: Exhibition of Human Body
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:51 PM

I've read this thread several times and pondered about posting to it. This became a real issue in our home as "Bride Judy" really wanted to see it. I told her to go right ahead, but I won't be participating.

I was a medic in the Army, many years ago. I took my gross anatomy classes at a local medical school and we did work with human cadavers.
I've seen all the body parts, and pieces, I care to see.

But the primary reason I stayed away had more to do with exploitation. Again, please keep in mind I did NOT attend the event when it hit Seattle. So I really can't say, from personal viewing, that these people were exploited.

But, in a way, it kind of reminds me of TV. What is the TRUE PURPOSE of TV ... TO SELL TOOTHPASTE! True!

So, what is the real purpose of displaying these bodies? To sell toothpaste (advertising), ticket sales, to make money off of people's morbid curiousity?

In the end, "Bride Judy" didn't attend, primarily because she couldn't find anyone that wanted to go with her.

I think one of the positive apects of this "SHOW," (and that's a good word for it) is the obvious discussion it has prompted. Bob