BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 01:25 PM

No one is happy that 2500 plus American military lives have been lost in the past four years...

I dunno about that, Douggie: to the BuShites, 2500+ dead is "Just A Number". No big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 01:13 PM

Donuel quotes above,

We are staying the course
we are walking the walk
we are talking the talk
we are gonna smoke em out
we are on point.
we are done with major hostilities
and celebrating Mission Accomplished
we are gonna finish the mission
we are gonna make sure none of our troops will have died in vain.

The following has been oft quoted in these threads, but it is still apt. Especially applicable to current American foreign policy:

What is the definition of insanity? Is it doing the same thing over and over, each time expecting a different result.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Clifton53
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 12:50 PM

Spot on Chief, of course, there are no drug users outside of the military now is there?? And if you are a soldier, you'd better be gung ho or there is little chance you'll make it through.

Besides, there ain't too many souls outside the states that give a fuck what we think so it's just another spew thread populated by the usual snipers that live in this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 01 Sep 06 - 10:09 AM

Painting with a pretty broad brush there aren't we?

Sure there are drug users in the military, we are after all volunteers from the whole of the US and some foreign nations as well.
But drugged up, beefed up, (might as well say Jack Booted Thugs)with an open license to kill? Yes there have been illegal massacres of unarmed civilians and there have been attempts to cover them up. There's no denying that. But your just spouting hate filled propaganda against all of the troops instead of those that have actually committed these attrocities.

Again, it's not worth it. And again I would say that the majority of our troops are decent folks. And after 18 years of service I can tell you that I have only known three people that were doing drugs. Two were cocaine (and it was fairly obvious). The other was marijuana and the service person admitted to it before the sample was even processed.

But go ahead and slander our troops from the safe comfy chair behind your computer. It sure as hell won't hurt them.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Epona
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 11:42 PM

This American doesn't think it's worth it. I have too many of my soldiers recovering from injuries that can't be fixed with some motrin and badge.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: kendall
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 07:25 AM

Doug, what you have there is apples and oranges.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:33 AM

Problem is the "Bush plan" is the "War on Terror". It will never be "over"--therefore never "work".

And what's more, he's responsible for quite a bit of the anti-Western attitude now seen in terror attacks all over the world. If you read virtually any article with quotes by angry Moslems, the Iraq war is almost always cited.   Bush's war--unnecessary, his war by choice, and only supported by the US public due to a despicable propaganda campaign his regime used to stoke war fever and justify the attack on Iraq.

And by doing so he squandered the good will of most of the world--which had even supported the Afghanistan campaign--e.g. the French--and a good many US liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: DougR
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 12:16 AM

I think time will tell whether it was worth it or not. If the Bush plan works, it will have been woth it. If it does not, it will not have been.

No one is happy that 2500 plus American military lives have been lost in the past four years. Anybody know how many American military lives were lost in one week during Battle of the Bulge? Was it worth it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: GUEST,George says I shouldn't be a citizen
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 04:19 AM

Who's fighting over there? Iraq has suicide bombers, the US has suicide baptists.

The bombers, the baptists and Bush all think they go to a heaven, sleep with virgins and get to beat their wives in peace forever.

Same god gene defect. The entire middle east and the US south and mid-west originally were and remain populated with marginally sentient delusional religious psychopaths. But I repeat myself.

So all the religious in the US are happy, smug, and apparently waiting around for some god to some day bless them with the brains to understand how to use a computer.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 03:36 AM

Very well put Kendall!

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:42 PM

Donuel has it right. We gotta make sure the troops haven't died in vain--the only way to do that is perpetual war.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:41 PM

Why do people have such an aversion to admitting being wrong? It doesn't hurt, and it doesn't deminish you as a human being. All it does is make you look silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:59 PM

You're just not talking to the right people. Kendall. There's plenty of 'em out there- check this out for example:
http://www.leatherneck.com
Their "forums" are a real eye opener.

And then there's the Republican Chickenhawks.....

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:16 PM

We are staying the course
we are walking the walk
we are talking the talk
we are gonna smoke em out
we are on point.
we are done with major hostilities
and celebrating Mission Accomplished
we are gonna finish the mission
we are gonna make sure none of our troops will have died in vain.

To do this of course we will have to maintain a perpetual war.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:28 PM

I've never talked to anyone who was in Nam who thought it was worth it. How could it be? We lost 58000 young Americans, for what?

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:22 PM

I think what ard mhacha is saying that America continues to send it's murderers in uniform to far off lands to slay thousands of people and all we hear through the media is quickly passed over figures of dead. He is right, America sends these drugged up, beefed up guys in on open- licence to kill. Then they wonder why they become a target at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:03 PM

Foolestroupe,

THIS

-is what I was referring to.

As I'd seen it recently, I made an incorrect guess that you had too.

Sorry for any confusion!

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:44 PM

Ard Mhacha's comments (accusations) remind me of the time in the late Sixties when I was working at a radio station as an announcer and newscaster. One of the stories I read in the top-of-the-hour news had to do with casualties in the Vietnam war. The copy had come off the teletype (Associated Press, as I recall), and I read the story in the standard, matter-of-fact newscaster's manner. Even though I was appalled by the facts presented, I read the copy straight and made no comments of my own. I did not editorialize, which, of course, I was not supposed to do.

A moment or two later, the phone rang (it was a weekend and I was alone in the station). It was a listener. He was furious with me for not having an emotional breakdown over the story and sobbing into the microphone. "Cold fish bastard!" was one of the many colorful things he called me.

Only a few weeks before, a very dear friend of mine, a medivac helicopter pilot, was killed when his helicopter, filled with wounded he was trying to transport to safety, was shot down.

I am sorry if the listener who called was also suffering a personal tragedy because of the Vietnam war but he had no idea of my own emotional reaction to that story, and he had a lot of gall to assume that he did.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:30 PM

Please explain who (or even what) 'the other side' is.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: kendall
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 02:26 PM

How can we know how many are dead on the other side?

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: GUEST,Mousey McConville
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:53 AM

Well said ard mhacha.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:12 AM

ard mhacha, some aspects of the carnage are just too wrenching to dwell upon.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:48 AM

This Thread is a true insight into the insular mentality of the people of the US, the figures for the US dead are quoted and lamented upon, it dosen`t seem to matter one damm about the countless dead of Vietnam, Iraq,Afghanistan, not one word of symapathy expressed in this Thread for the citizens of these countries invaded by warmongering murderers.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM

Don't remember that cartoon...

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:15 AM

*LOL*

There is a cartoon about that, Foolstroupe...you seen it too?

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:55 AM

He's still trying to make sense of that prompt card that said "710"

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:19 AM

Can someone tell me, the current price of oil, is it calculated now in Lives per Barrel, or what?

If not, when did the price of blood drop so low that even in the U.S. who subsidise it 'at the pumps' oil, per pint, is more valuable?

Well, then I suppose you need the Exchange Rate for £Sterling to $Dollars too...

Complicated isnt it?...no wonder the White House Chimp cant work it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:27 PM

With the lineup the way it is now, there's absolutely no chance. That may well change in November--and possibly drastically.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:21 PM

Do you guys really think the November elections will make a difference?

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:19 PM

What's worth it?--Impeaching, convicting and removing Bush and Cheney 6 years into their regime?----hell yeah it's worth it (but will have to wait til November).

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:59 PM

Thanks, Don, for telling us about McDermott! I hope other Dems will take their cue from him!

BillD...I mighta known you'd know where to find the best satirical cartoons.:-) Thanks for the links!

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:14 PM

Its been worth it to Dick Cheney and other war profiteers but nobody won this 'war' except maybe the terrorists who have increased their power base.

The Israeli people did not win.

The Lebanese people did not win.

The Iraqi people did not win.

The U.S. have been ruined economically is very weak internationally.

No, only those who sell guns and ammunition, control the flow of oil and amass fortunes with no bid reconstruction projects have gained a thing.

So once again, the extremists have won. For them, its been worth it. They're laughing all the way to the bank and its your money they have looted.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:11 PM

The Congressional Representative for Washington State's Seventh District, Jim McDermott, was opposed to the war from before the start and has been highly vocal about it, for which he has taken an immense amount of flak and has been lumbered with a frivolous law-suit by Right-Wingers. He caught a couple of high-level Republican politicians in an illegal scheme and reported it to the Ethics Committee. They're trying to charge him with illegal wire-tapping, which he did not do, but what does the truth matter when you might have a chance of silencing someone like McDermott? McDermott, however, refuses to shut up.

I was at the award ceremony where McDermott was presented with the first "Backbone Award" by members of the Backbone Campaign, a grass-roots organization dedicated to returning the Democratic Party to the progressive principles it used to espouse. The award is given to those elected officials who profess progressive ideal and demonstrate unequivocally that they possess a spine.

McDermott made some cogent comments in his acceptance speech. Among other things, he said (I'm paraphrasing here, but it's close), "I have visions that this 'war' with Iraq will end in the same manner as the war in Vietnam:   with Americans scrambling aboard helicopters on the roof of the embassy seconds before the 'enemy' storms the building. A long, tedious war, expensive in lives, money, and American prestige, from which we gain nothing, and are eventually force to flee ignominiously."   

Efforts on the part of the Right to unseat McDermott don't look too bright. He won the last election with 85% of the vote, and many members of his constituency are making contributions to help him with his legal fees in the law suit. People like the way he takes a stand, tells you what that stand is, and works his tail off against massive opposition to keep his pledges to the voters.

Would that more members of the Democratic Party were like him.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:27 PM

I have been against it from the first.

I also have a hard time seeing how it can end well. It may get so hot that the troops have to be brought home while the region is still in turmoil. Alternately, the Iraqi government may stablize enough for the troops to come home. I have to think there are enough people in the region unwilling to live with any gov't the U.S. can live with that the violence will erupt again, and will likely be even worse.

There are other possibilites but these two seem the most likely to me. Neither of these would be good for either the Middle East or the U.S.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:51 PM

I try to abstain from these threads for the most part, but...

Hey, where else could you get a cache free WMD's, battle train troops and field test weapons at such a bargain basement prices, take out one of the world's largest standing armies, destabilize a whole region, and make a shitload of money for the war coffers? Apparently the Americans in charge think it's worth it.

Most 'Catters know I was in favour of the "war" at the beginning, but have since seen the light, all too clearly. So, no need to comment.

Regarding Toby. Can't sing? No talent? Yeah, right. Tell that to his fans and his bank account. What a stunned thing to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:20 PM

Thanks, Kendall. And 'Good Day So Far' was written by Loudon Wainwright III.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Cruiser
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:16 PM

Thanks again Sir.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:01 PM

Cruiser...yes, there are several places. You can get most of the important ones here

or here

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:44 PM

From: GUEST,282RA - oh for heaven's sake, the Church sex abuse scandal in the United States doesn't justify anti-catholicism. I was gonna type up a bunch of the crap I and my family have been through over the years, but I've been through it before and I reckon you really couldn't care less. It was Catholics themselves that blew the whistle on the coverup and its Catholics that are still fighting the battles for compensation but again, somehow I don't think you care.

My original point had been that the Dixie Chicks and the video director for some reason picked the wrong scary guys to accuse of censorship in their video. Unless Toby Keith was once an ordained Catholic priest and a member of the college of cardinals... (now wouldn't THAT be hilarious if it were true. His fanbase would plotz)

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Cruiser
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:34 PM

Thanks Bill D.

I rarely get the chance to see satirical editorial cartoons anymore. Is there a website that catalogs/collects such cartoons that anyone knows of?

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:24 PM

Today's editorial cartoon from the Washington Post

I do like Tom Toles...

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: GUEST,Newburg's Landing
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:54 PM

GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:47 PM
Steroids are illegal in the U.S. Military and are tested for constantly.

So is murdering the people they are there to protect. Drug taking in the U.S. military is well known so don't talk crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:29 PM

No Man's Land (Willy McBride) was written by Eric Bogle.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: GUEST,thew
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:22 PM

It was never worth it. Unprovoked aggression never is...except to those who sell the arms and market the oil. They are less than 1/2 of 1 % of the USA and UK population, but it's worth it to them. Expect to see further wars on their behalf...all conducted against a "maniac" or a "madman" whom they have conveniently found somewhere to get people all worked up about. Yes, someone who is sooooooooo dangerous to the whole world that he must be TAKEN OUT NOW!!! Ha. Ha. Ha.

Next likely Chapter in the "Not Worth It" escapades? Iran or Syria.

Next likely convenient "maniac/madman"? Ahmadinejad or Assad.

They're swarthy. They have facial hair. They're not American. They're almost perfect. Hollywood could hardly ask for better casting, and the script is always the same, and people buy it. Naturally. It's just like on TV.

Gosh, I can't wait till Arnold Schwarzenneger becomes president, can you? Who better than the Terminator to preside over WWIII? Ha. Ha. Ha.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Cruiser
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:08 PM

Amos,

{Quote}
"How would you know when terror surrendered? Who gets to sign the papers? That's not a war, it's a declaration of long term policy to be warmongers." {End Quote}


I agree. That is why I put "war" in quotes.

I just do not see any possible equitable resolution to the Iraq/terrorism situation.

Cruiser

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:08 PM

No, it's not worth it.

But, as far as supporting the troops goes, what's the alternative? The fact that a soldier's sense of duty and patriotism has been co-opted by a leader with an agenda doesn't dishonor the soldier, just the leader who sent him on a dishonorable mission.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:58 PM

The insanity of claiming to be at war against terror, while actually launching a war against two foreign governments in succession and toppling them in the hopes of reducing the condition called terror, is absolute mindlessness at its worst and most destructive.

It is possibkle that there ar epositive and productive paths the nation could follow in attempting to reduce the condition known as terror, but declaring war against "it" when it has no name, no home, no nation, and a completely volatile and amorphous population, is really dumb.

How would you know when terror surrendered? Who gets to sign the papers? That's not a war, it's a declaration of long term policy to be warmongers.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:56 PM

>>I hate ever agreeing with William Donahue (Sp?) that RC blowhard, but sometimes i think he's right when he says "Anti-Catholicism is the last acceptible prejudice in America"<<

Might have something to do with all the children they've molested over the decades, if not centuries, and not done shit about until now.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:54 PM

>>Shut Up & Sing which is what Toby Keith<<

I would say he should take his own advice but he can't sing either. Toby Keith is easily the most talentless performer this side of Paris Hilton. Yick, he sucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Do Americans think it's worth it ?
From: Cruiser
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 12:50 PM

The U.S. infrastructure is crumbling while we are destroying Iraq's. We will spend billions of U.S. dollars to rebuild that country while our own country declines from lack of funds and we decline morally because this terrible injustice. Money provided by honest hard working taxpayers is squandered needlessly in a place where our system of Democracy can never work. How ironic it is that the Katrina victim's tax dollars are being wasted in Iraq when those funds should be spent helping them recover from the destruction they are still suffering from.

As a lifelong Republican and a Viet Nam era veteran (a "war" I opposed, but still proudly and honorably served in the military) I just simply do not understand this situation. I am wondering if many Republicans have lost touch with reality or just blindly follow their misguided party leaders. I have complete disdain for Mr. Bush and his affiliates in the White House and Congress for sending proud idealist young Americans to an early grave without having the chance to experience the full pleasures and joys of a wonderful life.

No, the Iraq "war" is not worth it! I think if the U.S. can ever recover from this tragedy it will be well into the future after I am no longer walking through this troubled world. I worry for all young Americans and their futures, including my own son, because of our misdeeds regarding Iraq.

I mourn for the loss of life of our soldiers and have deep regret for what the leaders of our country have done to the Iraqi people and their country.

Cruiser