Dublin man invents perpetual motion

Subject: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: woodsie
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:35 PM

Just been listening to BBC R4 programme where they were speaking to Sean McCarthy who claims to have perfected a process that will provide unlimited energy forever without the need for any fuel. He has challenged the world's scientists to test his invention and placed an ad in a national magazine (I think it was the economist) He claims that it will power anything from a mobile phone to a car. The system uses magnetic fields similar to an electric motor - but does not require connection to a power source!

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:38 PM

Perhaps now we can send a man to Mars to hunt for those sea shells.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:44 PM

So this thread is in the correct part of the board - I thought "Perpetual Motion" was invented/written by Paganini - Bill Keith once played it for me on five string banjo.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,Reilly
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 01:59 PM

Well as the device has big implications for musicians.

e.g. Amps that do not need to be plugged in! Wow we can have an electric session in the middle of a field!

Ipods that go on forever etc.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:07 PM

mmm-hmmmmm...I wonder which fundamental law THIS guy has overlooked. I have seen a number of schemes based on magnetism, but they all missed something.

(I even knew personally a guy who made some money because his system of controlled magnets resembled pretty closely parts of the guidance system of some military rockets back in the late 60s. I think they bought him out for about $50,000)

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:08 PM

Hmm,

Anyone intrigued by the idea of creating energy out of thin air should read Rupert Goodwins' damning article on the subject of Steorn at http://www.zdnet.co.uk.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:09 PM

Down, down I say! To BS!

(this was reported on last week)

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,johnmc
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:15 PM

Initially, I thought this might be a reference to the Irish who have kissed the Blarney Stone.
   If the man becomes famous and they erect a statue in Dublin, can't wait for
the nickname ( a la Floosie in the Jacuzzi).

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:34 PM

Guest Johnmc:
Is that the same statue sometimes referred to as "The hooer in the sewer"?

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:34 PM

It's a great day for the Irish. My father always told me the most famous inventor in the world was an Irishman named Patrick Pendleton and if you looked on cereal boxes and in advertisements for stuff you would see his name..Pat. Pending. mg

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:02 PM

Probably inspired by a session band trying to figure out
how to stop playing 'The Butterfly' or 'The Rocky Road
to Dublin Town.'

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Grab
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 04:49 PM

For convenience, that ZDNet link.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: John O'L
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 05:22 PM

I thought that up a couple of years ago for a novel I never wrote. Except my magnetic fields weren't real, they were computer-generated simulations. The trouble was that because they were only artificial, using them redirected real energy from where it was being naturally expended.
I guess Sean won't have that problem.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

The coverage in the technical press is sparse but it seems to indicate he's serious about the challenge, anyway.


A

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Peace
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:24 PM

This idea is not new.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Peace
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:26 PM

Here.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:48 PM

There are fluids with special properties, including being susceptible to magnetism, and proving an almost frictionless surface while in the magnetic field.

Someone a while ago worked out that the correct designed gadget would produce power, not perpetual motion, but normal EM generated power converting input motion energy which works because of the low losses due to the fluid.

Some current (sorry!) applications include using wave motion to power sensor buoys.

Breaks no 'Laws of Nature'.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bert
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:44 PM

If it uses magnets it can't be perpetual motion because magnets contain energy.

It should not be beyond the realms of possibility it devise a machine to extract that energy.
But when it is exhausted the machine would stop and the magnets have to be recharged.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:01 PM

"If it uses magnets it can't be perpetual motion because magnets contain energy. "

Bzzzt! Wrong Answer! Not a scientific explanation!

The ENERGY output (electricity flowing in a circuit) comes ONLY from the input ENERGY of the MOTION causing a conductor to cut lines of magnetic force. The magnet loses no observable energy. (Ah! SOME magnets do lose their magnetism over Looooooooong periods of time, but that is another story!)

There is ENERGY CONVERSION!

If there in INPUT energy producing OUTPUT energy, this is normal science - but there will also be energy LOSSES in the transformation, generally observed as HEAT ENERGY.

"Perpetual Motion" claims that there are no energy losses, and that there is 100% energy conversion - this claim is WHY it is 'against the laws of science'.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:04 PM

Even worse, one of the consequences of 'Perpetual Motion' when used as a 'generator' of energy, is that it would 'create energy' out of 'nothing' - and even quantum physics says that you can't do that, you can only CONVERT energy from one form to another, even if you have to break nuclear bonds to do it.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:16 PM

Referring to Peace's link, surely the difference in principle between the linear device shown (and stated to have been demonstrated) and the radial one is that in the radial one there will be magnetic fields from the diametrically opposite magnets that are likely (I haven't tried to do the maths) to negate the desired effect.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:26 PM

"Creating energy out of nothing" - isn't that what the Big Bang is all supposed to have been about?

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:42 PM

No - the energy came out of a collision between two 'branes'. ('String Theory')

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:48 PM

This sounds a bit like a variation on the Dean Device, a reactionless space drive scheme that John W. Campbell, one-time editor of Analog was all tooted up about. The inventor wanted investors, but when potential investors wanted the thing tested to see if it was even feasible, he was either paranoid enough or confidently sneaky enough to refuse to supply information about or a working model of the device so it could be tested, claiming that he was afraid someone would steal his idea. There are people out there still trying to hawk the idea, but takers seem to be pretty slim.

The problem with devices that do work without consuming energy invariably have one slight but lethal flaw   they don't work. Wouldn't it be loverly if they did? What was it that Robert Heinlein said about this sort of thing?   "TANSTAAFL."

What can I say?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:54 PM

If the moving magnet is 'moving' - where is the endless energy to make it constantly move coming from? That means that there is unaccounted for INPUT ENERGY in the system, and all the maths are wrong.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bert
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:50 PM

Foolestroupe, I'll break your nuclear bonds if you ain't bloody careful *GRIN*

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:34 AM

Foulestroupe, there is a difference between an initial motion, and a need for further input to maintain or increase motion.

However, on the face of things the device on Peace's link seems not to account for the fact that the device as shown contains conductors moving within magnetic fields, which will result in a counterforce (Fleming's right and left hand rules) although I cannot quantify those forces.

If, however, it did work, it looks as if it would accelerate for ever, thus at some point flying to pieces under centripetal/centrifugal force.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 03:37 AM

Three possibilities only:

- Physics is wrong
- there's an unsuspected source of energy (e.g. some sort of cold fusion)
- The inventor is wrong.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,johnmc
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM

Nigel
    I believe it is the same Anna Plurabel;
other one is, I've just remembered, "Prick with a stick".

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,Albert Einstein
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:30 AM

Listen mate, if I say it can't be done, IT CAN'T BE DONE OK.

Al

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:46 AM

History of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy Machines

Modern inventors usually reject the term 'perpetual motion'. They prefer to talk about tapping energy sources not yet understood.
(R. Schadewald, Recent developments in perpetual motion, Skeptical Inquirer Winter 1980/81, S. 25)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,The Ghost of Sir Isaac Newton
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:24 AM

Oi! Einstein, SHUSH....I'm THINKING...

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:56 AM

The typical perpetual-motion-device inventor is the source of the conversion of energy.

The energy takes the form of money out of an investor's pocket and converts it into the 'inventor's' bank account.

Perpetual motion has become something of a loaded term and the more recent technospeak I've heard is the 'over unity' device, the over unity part being that output energy is greater than input energy, hence the ratio would be greater than one or 'over unity'.

Tain't none of it true.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Grab
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:43 AM

The term "overunity" simply depends on what you consider the boundaries of your system to be. For example, if your boundary is the box containing your widget, then a solar panel on the box would make it an overunity device. The problem is that when you set your boundary as the universe, it becomes abundantly clear that you've got yourself an extra source of energy.

That's the problem with this thing. If it works, then the energy's coming from somewhere. That means it's only "overunity" in their not-very-well-thought-out environment.

Oh and Peace, that magnetic "motor" thing ain't going to work. It's principle can be illustrated as follows: "You sit on a swing, and the swing's ropes are tied loosely so they can rotate round the top beam. I push you hard. You fly over the top, then gravity pulls you down the other side, then you go over the top again and gravity will pull you down the other side again, and so on. Because gravity keeps pulling you down after you've gone over the top, you'll go on spinning round and round, faster and faster, for ever." Explaining why this ain't so is left as an exercise for the reader with more than half a functioning brain and less than half a non-functioning level of credulity... ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:43 AM

"If, however, it did work, it looks as if it would accelerate for ever, thus at some point flying to pieces under centripetal/centrifugal force."

Only 3 real choices

1) energy out = energy in - 0, thus the system would be stable in the current state of motion it is. Only thing wrong with this is that there can be no energy losses, eg friction, etc - and THAT would be a significant invention in itself.

2) energy in > energy out - well.... it won't run for very long if you stop putting energy in then...

3) energy out > energy in - well that's sorta what seems to happen with a 'nuclear runaway' i.e. explosion... unless it is 'moderated' or controlled, but in that case we KNOW that there is a known type of energy conversion taking place.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:46 AM

He des not claim perpetual motion. He states that his team has developed an over-unity device (output energy is more than 100% of input energy).

This is either some really stretched-out PR gimmick, for obscure purpose, or he believes it. I'd take him up on it.

A

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:56 PM

FGS Amos read a few posts that preceded your own. over unity means now PRECISELY what perpetual motion used to mean. Something for nothin'.

TANSTAAFL big fella!

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:09 PM

"I'd take him up on it."

Long as you don't give him any money.


For just the ridiculously low one off price of US$100,000 I can sell you the details of a process that turns dog turds into gold...

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:18 PM

... I send you dog turds, you send me gold...

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:53 PM

Tell ya what -- I'll send you the dog turds and when you get them turned to gold, send half of them back.

Obviously over-unity is the only possible means for actually achieving what used to be called perpetual motion, but they ain't the same thing. BEsides, parts wear out.

Believe me I understand the concern about not believing in something that violates the conservation of energy and the general laws of thermodynamics.

The reason there is still some hope out there is that absolute entropy only characterizes closed systems. For the last several hundred years we have grown to believe that material space-time is such a system, unless you want to invoke divinity or some such.

But there is good evidence now that the edges of the continuum are volatile, that particles come into and out of existence and quite a clip, and that there may also be dimensions involved in the real mechanisms of spacetime that we wot not of.

So let us not be too arrogant here. If this bloke is going to be hung by his own petard, I am quite content to let it happen; but at another level I have my fingers crossed.

A

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:58 PM

"I'll send you the dog turds and when you get them turned to gold, send half of them back."

Sorry, I said it first... :-0

"but at another level I have my fingers crossed."

Me too. Hope springs eternal.

There's one born every minute, too....

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:11 PM

Thank you, Wolfgang, for the link....which leads to many pages of the history and science of this futile pursuit! And to the many hilarious attempts which are worth viewing for the laughs!

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:35 PM

This is like a debate 400 hundred years ago when all we have now did'nt exist, it was called witchcraft. Or when H G Wells wrote the shape of things to come, helicopters, televisions NEVER.

    OPEN YOUR MINDS.   TY Cobble.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 08:37 PM

The Stanley Meyers reference in that link reminded me that one of the Meyers pamphlets made it to an acquaintance of mine who asked me to have a physicist check it out, the physicist being my father. It was an entertaining but entirely ridiculous diatribe about how hitting a resonant frequency would shake the O in water away from the H2 without using all that energy required for hydrolysis. Then you could burn the H2 and power your (in this case) golfcart. I believe my acquaintance invested anyway, in spite of our warnings, and wasted even more money trying to sue Meyers.

In the context of fraudsters trying to raise money, "over Unity" is a loaded term, and differs from perpetual motion only in sounding more modern. All the other supposed 'meanings' of the term come from terminology in engineering which refer to efficiency, and there indeed you have to be very specific as to what is meant by energy going in and energy coming out, but in regular engineering you don't have 'over unity'.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:43 PM

I've often wondered whether atomic bonds were susceptible to any particular resonant frequency. It seems so reasonable!! LOL!! I doubt it is a frequency you'd be able to generate without a lot of energy, though.

Then there's always the miracle of sonoluminescence, which also LOOKS like a break-out phenomenon, but is not.

A

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 10:58 PM

The beer pump at the local Gargle and Spit! Never a dull moment.

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Keef
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:16 PM

This exact same system featured in Popular Mechanics about 20 years ago.
The authors claimed to have produced a working motor that powered a 4 wheel drive by free energy. I don't think it was April 1st but I was intrigued enough to waste a few hours with a supply of button magnets.
Did it work?
Sadly not.
It is what is known in scientific terminology as..........









COMPLETE BOLLOCKS!

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:55 PM

Here's the critical article from ZDNet UK which doesn't really fill any holes as much as point out where they probably are.

A

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 05:59 AM

You want perpetual motion? Get a hyperactive toddler and a small dog.....

LTS

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: jonm
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:49 AM

From the title, the thought that crossed my mind was:

Liffey water - brewing process - Guinness - drink - pee - back into the Liffey...

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 07:07 AM

It is well known 'law' that a piece of buttered toast when dropped will ALWAYS land buttered side down .

It is also a known 'law' that a falling cat will ALWAYS land on its feet .

Secure slice of toast to cats back , drop cat from great height - Result - Perpetual Motion !!

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Grab
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 08:40 AM

Guest "Ty Cobble", yes indeedy, it's very like witchcraft. All thos witchcraft cases, where people claim that so-and-so turned into a dog or some other animal, or flew across the sky on a broomstick. All those witchcraft stories were total rubbish, and so is this.

Maybe you meant alchemy? In which case I'd remind you of all those people who spent their lives searching for the Philosopher's Stone which would produce the Elixir of Life, or trying to turn lead into gold via chemical reactions. Again, total rubbish.

"Ty Cobble" appears to be spouting cobblers...

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 06 - 06:08 PM

attached toast to cat...attached wire to cat's tail, leading to light bulb....dropped cat from top of house onto trampoline. Cat bounced once, was picked off in mid-bounce by flock of crows with a taste for toast and after toast was gone, cat has been hiding under house for 6 hours now and I am sweeping up pieces of broken light bulb.....what did I do wrong?

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:17 AM

I tried that too... the cat ate the toast and electrocuted itself.

LTS

Subject: RE: Dublin man invents perpetual motion
From: Paul Burke
Date: 31 Aug 06 - 04:34 AM

What's perpetual motion got to do with dog turds? Surely they are intermittent motion, unless you've got a very sick dog?