 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Bill D Date: 20 Sep 06 - 02:05 PM I do not read minds...I do not KNOW what Benedict had in his head when he gave that speech....(I do not KNOW even that he wrote it all), but I have opinions. The Pope either was taking a barely disguised swipe at Islam, OR he was careless in his choice of examples.....neither of which speaks to whether he was right in his thesis, or whether Islam NEEDS a swipe or two. I tend to think he had his scholars hat on, and was merely careless, but I'd only give about 5:3 odds on that. He SHOULD have realized that line would provoke a response....Islam these days has a hair-trigger on their 'insult meter', and there is a large % of them who are looking for any excuse to attack any westerners and any other religion or government for perceived insults. The whole attitude behind the response to his speech IS irrational, but when you have a LARGE number of irrational members in a group, like the old Ku Klux Klan, you have a limited number of ways to deal with them......and you'd better be ready if you choose certain options! The ONLY way I see is a long range plan to get cooperation of many moderate Islamic clerics in revising the notion that violence is an acceptable response to perceived slights. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: pdq Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:24 PM The real question is whether people like al Qaeda represent the normal Muslem or are the mis-guided voice of a few. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Al-Qaida in Iraq and its allies issued a statement addressing the pope as "a cross-worshipper" and warning, "You and the West are doomed, as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya and elsewhere. "You infidels and despots, we will continue our jihad (holy war) and never stop until God avails us to chop your necks and raise the fluttering banner of monotheism, when God's rule is established governing all people and nations," said the statement by the Mujahedeen Shura Council, an umbrella organization of Sunni Arab extremist groups in Iraq. Another Iraqi extremist group, Ansar al-Sunna, challenged "sleeping Muslims" to prove their manhood by doing something other than "issuing statements or holding demonstrations." "If the stupid pig is prancing with his blasphemies in his house," the group said in a Web statement, referring to the pope, "then let him wait for the day coming soon when the armies of the religion of right knock on the walls of Rome." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: GUEST Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:22 PM Back to the Pope. He owes the Muslim world NO apology. None at all. Why should he apologize for their stupid interpretation of what he said? All this type of response from Islamic fundamentalists is proving is that they should get rid of their radical Imams and replace them with halfwits. It would be a step up. The same could be said about Falwell and Robertson. Idiocy is not the domain of any single fundamentalism. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Grab Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:13 PM Falwell's pro-invasion comments and Robertson advocates assassination, just to pick a couple of quotes. No, neither has picked up a gun or flown a plane into a building themselves. Nor has Osama bin Laden. The crime of all three is inciting (or attempting to incite) people to violence. Let's not forget that Robertson and Falwell already *have* their army, run by their mate George. Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: GUEST,dax Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:24 PM It would seem that the Islamic response lends proof to the statement perceived as insulting. I think religious dogma can only be overcome by education, but too often the education system is controlled by those spouting their inflexable beliefs. What is fact is that much of the terror on our planet is religion based, and most all faiths can share the blame. Too damn bad that few come forward to try and put a stop to it! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Sep 06 - 11:42 AM "When was the last time Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson put a bomb on an Israeli school bus? " They've never wanted to- but they had several whole states, with armies and airforces, to deliver bombs for them wherever they wanted to. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: pdq Date: 20 Sep 06 - 11:35 AM "When was it illegal to have an opinion? " During the Inquisition? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: number 6 Date: 20 Sep 06 - 11:33 AM "When was it illegal to have an opinion?" it depends what country you live in. sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 20 Sep 06 - 11:31 AM When was it illegal to have an opinion? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: pdq Date: 20 Sep 06 - 11:19 AM ER, Grab...you say: "If he'd condemned Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Osama bin Laden in the same breath, then fine." When was the last time Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson put a bomb on an Israeli school bus? Blew -up an office building? Tried to buy a nuclear weapon to destroy a city? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Sep 06 - 11:18 AM Go and read it! This may be a Pope of the lunatic extremes, an anti-liberal in religious terms, as I feared when he was appointed, but where does he in any way endorse the quote "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Donuel Date: 20 Sep 06 - 10:27 AM At Boston College I knew a nun who was in charge of the Greatest Hits of Pope Paul CD distribution. There's no business like God Business theres no business I know... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Donuel Date: 20 Sep 06 - 09:42 AM Pope on a Rope a real gift shop item at the Vatican. (scented soap) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Grab Date: 20 Sep 06 - 08:54 AM I live in Ireland and whatever the Pope says has little or no impact, or interest, on the people here No? Let us know when they allow abortion over there. My problem with the Pope's speech isn't that he quoted this about mediaeval Islam, but that he's using the same argument about modern Islam. If he'd condemned Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Osama bin Laden in the same breath, then fine. But to single out Islam is to pour fuel on the bonfire, as Paul says. Graham. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Sep 06 - 07:59 AM Anyone who thought I was cutting the Pope any slack misunderstood me-- I was merely delighted to get a handle on HOW he could have gotten so far off the track as to cause what's happened. I still lay the blame at his feet, and yes I DO think he wrote the speech-- Popes aren't exactly run the same way politicos are run, even if part of their role IS political. ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Sep 06 - 07:24 AM It is not supporting violence to point out that the Pope was deliberately (not stupidly) pouring petrol onto a bonfire. He knew the bonfire was there, and he's an expert in the theology and hsitory of the Catholic Church over many centuries. He said "... he (the Byzantine emperor) addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable." Benedict MUST have known that at the time the emperor was making this statement, the Catholic Church in the west was forcibly converting Jews in Spain, burning Lollards in England, and persecuting Waldensians in the Holy Roman Empire; not long before, the Spiritual Franciscans, Beghards and Fraticelli had been similarly suppressed. This is hardly a picture of rejection of "spreading the faith through violence". It was in fact only when the various churches lost power that they abjured such means. The Orthodox church in Russia is currently using its state and nationalist support to make life for other religions (Evangelicals, Jehovah's witnesses and others) very difficult. So the Pope's central thesis- of a contrast between "reasonable" Christianity and fanatical Islam- falls down - and he MUST have known this. Of course it's wrong that the bonfire flared up, no one should have lit it in the first place. But he saw the flames, and could have chosen not to add to it. The murderers of the Italian nun in Somalia, and the arsonists of churches elsewhere, are directly to blame; but Benedict must have intended to provoke a reaction, and must accept that his words were in part to blame. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Sep 06 - 06:35 AM Joe, I have read the Guardian text and assuming it to be accurate it certainly contains criticism of Islam but for others to assert that the quote given expressed the Pope's view of Islam as evil is, quite frankly stupid (as you evidently are not). I would go further than you do. I cannot see how those who have reacted as they have, and those who have apparently encouraged them can have done so in good faith. We cannot continue down the road of fabricating statements for people, inspired by but not in any way truly reflecting what people have said. If we go that way (and there is every sign that the UK and USA are going that way) then rationality and civilisation are dead. May your God help us! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:23 AM When I posted above, I hadn't found the remark in full context - all I'd seen is what other people said about it. Freightdawg is correct in suggesting I should have done my homework a bit more thoroughly. The entire text of the lecture is here (click) at the Vatican Website. It seems clear from the text of the lecture that he had no intent whatsoever to slander Islam. In fact, it seems to me that the Pope was making a good attempt to explore and explain the difference between Islamic thinking and the Greek thinking that has dominated Christianity since its inception. Greek thinking sees God as bound by reason. To Muslims, God is "absolutely transcendent, [whose] will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality." The Pope seems to indicate that it may be time to move away from the pigeonholes of Hellenistic thought and explore the Christian faith from different perspectives. In the end, though, Benedict concludes that it would be foolhardy to completely divorce the Christian faith from Greek thinking, since the New Testament itself was written in Greek. However, he speaks of a "genuine dialogue of cultures and religions so urgently needed today." All in all, it was a balanced, thorough exploration of the philosophical underpinnings of religion. I'm sure there are valid reasons to disagree with his conclusions, but I certainly don't see any intent to slander Islam in this lecture. I suppose it may be a hopeless endeavor for an intellectual Pope to attempt to speak intelligently in a world of sound bites and propaganda. The previous Pope was very good at sound bites and photo opportunities, and that made him very popular - but he didn't really have much to say that was satisfying to the intelligence. John Paul wrote extensively, but his writing wasn't particularly scholarly. He was wordy and stilted, and tended to spend a fair amount of time quoting his own previous statements. But he WAS good at sound bites. I think it was proper for the pope to express regret at the response to his statement - but I don't believe he has any reason to apologize for what he said in the lecture. Here's an Associate Press story about the murder of a nun in Somalia. The murder may or may not be associated with reaction to the pope's statement.
Sep. 19, 2006. 01:00 AM ANTHONY MITCHELL ASSOCIATED PRESS NAIROBI, Kenya—Sister Leonella, a Catholic nun who devoted her life to helping the sick in Africa, used to joke there was a bullet with her name engraved on it in Somalia. When the bullet came, she used her last breaths to forgive those responsible. "I forgive, I forgive," she whispered in her native Italian just before she died Sunday in Mogadishu, the Somali capital, Rev. Maloba Wesonga said at her memorial mass in Nairobi yesterday. Sister Leonella's slaying, outside the hospital where she worked, raised concerns she and other foreigners killed in Somalia recently are victims of growing Islamic radicalism in the Horn of Africa country, where a hardline Muslim militia has been expanding its reach. The shooting was not a random attack and could have been sparked by Muslim anger over recent remarks by Pope Benedict linking Islam and violence, said Willy Huber, regional head of the Austrian-financed hospital where the nun worked. Several Somalis who witnessed Sunday's attack by two gunmen also speculated the killing was related to the Pope. But Abdurahman Mohamed Farah, deputy leader of the Islamic militia, disputed that, blaming it instead on Somali warlords. Sister Leonella, whose birth name was Rosa Sgorbati, had lived and worked in Kenya and Somalia for 38 years. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: skipy Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:06 AM Wake up & smell the coffee! They look for any excuse to kill. Skipy |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: GUEST Date: 20 Sep 06 - 04:05 AM This statment by the Pope seems to have been a good excuse for all of those anti-Catholic bigots to vent their spleen, relax and leave that to the fundamentalist Muslims, I live in Ireland and whatever the Pope says has little or no impact, or interest, on the people here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Sep 06 - 03:57 AM Speech! Speech! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 Sep 06 - 03:53 AM Link to the speech please? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Paul Burke Date: 20 Sep 06 - 03:35 AM Yes, I have. He's a very clever man. He had an almost infinite number of examples of the different demands of faith and reason to choose from. He chose 2006, in the middle of a war which was sold as the 'liberation' of Iraq, and has shown itself (by its supporters staements) to be a fight against a religious idea, to quote from a mediaeval monarch, no stranger to a bit of forcing consciences himself, in a fixed debate (reported only by his own supporters) with a representative of a religious and political opponent who, a hundred or so years later, overwhelmed that monarch's territory. Couple that with the history of how the Roman end of Christianity was dealing with dissidents at the date of that quotation, and you can see it was mendacious indeed. Nazinger would be dangerous if he had much support, and it's only the fact that most Catholics seem to take the Pope with a pinch of salt these days that saves the situation. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: GUEST Date: 20 Sep 06 - 03:28 AM Have any of you read the whole of the lecture in order to understand the context of the popes's words? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Barry Finn Date: 20 Sep 06 - 02:43 AM We here in the west reacted in kind when the media carried footage of mid-easterns dancing in the streets after 9/11. The government IMHO even encouraged racism after that. Why are any different? I think we understand them as little as they understand us. As for the Pope, there 's no difference there either. When an academic theologian speaks does his words fall only on the ears of religous academics? Again where's the differrence? It just another case of the Goose & the Gander. Barry |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: GUEST Date: 20 Sep 06 - 02:12 AM Let's see, the Pope accuses Muslims of being violent and there is an immediate and overtly violent reaction from them? If it didn't have such potential for widespread deepening of existing rifts, I might find it amusing. Seems to me that both sides are at fault, but it all wouldn't have happened if the guy had made a different speech in the first place. To outside observers who can't understand why groups are forever arguing about their respective imaginary friends, it all defies credibility. Shame that these nonsensical and profoundly irresponsible activities have to put the world at such risk. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: dianavan Date: 20 Sep 06 - 01:05 AM Freightdawg says, "If I listen to a speech it is my responsibility to try and understand that speech in the terms set by the speaker to the very best of my ability." That's why its important for him to remember that not everyone who hears him understand the cultural context of the message. I'm not Catholic, and without Joe's explanation, it sounded pretty vicious to me. If I need it to be explained, imagine how the Muslim world perceives it. Its not good enough to excuse him for coming from an academic theological background. What kind of theology attacks another as being violent? Its not as if the history of Catholicism is untainted by violent acts. The Vatican is corrupt to the core. He (and his handlers) knew exactly what he was saying and the response by Islam was very predictable. You think he was too dumb to know? I doubt it. I may despise the Pope and all that he stands for but I don't think he's stupid and I don't think anyone has to make excuses for him. He is no different than the Mullahs. He says things that promote hatred and violence among the 'unwashed'. Its called an abuse of power. Nothing more, nothing less. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: freightdawg Date: 20 Sep 06 - 12:36 AM Joe, I usually appreciate your comments about subjects catholic, and I have to admit I am disappointed in your above post. The pope was making an academic lecture. Academic lectures are not to be sliced into 30 second sound bites. They are to be digested whole, not carved into a buffet where you pick and choose the parts you like (or hate) the most. Why is it that if someone misunderstands a speech the fault lies with the speech maker? Since when has it been written that the whole process of preparation, delivery, interpretation and understanding of a speech is the sole responsibility of the one who gives a speech? No, no and a thousand times no. If I listen to a speech it is my responsibility to try and understand that speech in the terms set by the speaker to the very best of my ability. If I misunderstand the speech it might be due to the speaker, but if everyone else understands the speech then the problem is most likely due to my own problems. I must then return to the speech and see where it is I lost the intent of the speaker. I may disagree with the speech, and depending on my situation I may have an opportunity to voice my disagreement, but at the very least I must attempt to understand it first. The problem with the reaction to the Pope is that the Muslim world was reacting to the quote, and not to the speech. That is the fault of the Muslim audience and NOT the Pope. The problem here was not with the Pope and he under-cut his authority immeasurably by apologizing. I did not even like his "I'm sorry they were upset" apology, but at least he put the blame squarely on the heads of those responsible. Now, every time he says anything that anyone anywhere disagrees with all that will be necessary is a large and vocal demonstration of anger and a demand for an apology. I can't wait until the abortion rights people react to his next sanctity of life speech. How can he exercise discipline even within the church if he allows dissent to influence his behavior? What's next? Apologies to the grapes for pressing them to make sacramental wine? Never apologize. Your enemies won't believe you and your friends don't need it. Jesus didn't apologize to the hypocrites because he called them hypocrites. He just called on them to be pure in heart. Freightdawg (not a Catholic, but an interested observer of all things religious) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Roughyed Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:45 PM Oh come on. This is a man who has been at the centre of the vatican for decades. It beggars belief that he did not know precisely what he was saying. His contempt for other religious traditions is barely disguised and firmly within a tradition within Roman Catholicism. The only thing that surprises me is that anyone outside that church pays any attention to this bigot. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: mg Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:44 PM It is my understanding that he was not just an academic theologian, but an enforcer. There is an organization that has direct ties to the Inquisition, and I am not sure if that is the one he was in charge of so I can't say. Read up on him. I tell you he is scary. Now, how do we go about getting him to make this apology? I guess I'll write a couple of cardinals. He has endangered many many people and bears some responsibility in the death(s?) that has occured and probably in many to come. As if Catholics are not responsible for violence, torture etc. in the past. mg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: number 6 Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:21 PM I can't buy that one ... do you really think the Pope sat down by himself and wrote that on a legal pad an hour or so he presented this speech ... I think not, he is surrounded by an entourage of calculating, political assistants (his version of Karl Roves) ... they wrote it, discussed it beforehand for whatever reason ... then the Pope went out and read it. Just like he was advised to do. I apologise for interpeting "bingo" as a thunder bolt of enlightment WYSIWGY ... I get your point now .. very good post of yours (even if I do disagree). sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: mg Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:21 PM I cut him no slack on this. He was not lifted to the papacy out of some obscure parish. He was a cardinal, an assistant to the last pope. I think he is scary. mg |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Sep 06 - 11:12 PM I didn't find it enlightening, nor did I say so. I found it ACCURATE and well said. ... That it was an error due to a misperception on the part of the Pope about what people can hear, and what he can say. He needs to catch up to the fact that his present role carries enormous impact, and to conduct himself accordingly. It was a failure of appropriate viewpoint and role in a dangerously volatile setting and situation. When you come to another culture to speak, your first job isn't to teach-- it's to listen, digest, reflect upon what you heard, and make it possible to respond once conprehension has been achieved-- not come in like an expert before you even know the mindset of the people to whom you will speak, which he clearly didn't gauge accurately. This should not have been a visit to be heard, but a visit to indicate an ability and willingness to HEAR. ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: number 6 Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:28 PM "Bingo. That is IT" What enlightment did ya find in that statement ?!?! sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: wysiwyg Date: 19 Sep 06 - 10:17 PM Benedict "spoke in the voice of the academic theologian he once was and not as the leader of one of the world's great religions." Bingo. That is IT, exactly, Joe. ~S~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: number 6 Date: 19 Sep 06 - 09:45 PM I certainly don't condone Pope's references to Islam and to religious violence ... but I must admit my eyebrow is raised when I hear of the violent acts perpetrated by fanatical Islamists over what he said .. such as the brutal killing of an Italian nun, and her bodyguard in Somalia, the torching of churches and the burning of the Pope's effegy ... overall kind of a violent reaction to the Pope's accusation of Islamic violence. Violence in the name of God !?!?! sIx |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Sep 06 - 09:23 PM My first reaction was that it was a quote within an academic lecture, so what's all the fuss? I changed my mind when I saw an opinion piece in today's paper by E.J. Dionne, who said that Benedict "spoke in the voice of the academic theologian he once was and not as the leader of one of the world's great religions." He was using the quote for academic purposes, but apparently forgot that many people (mistakenly) believe his every word is claimed to be infallible. Infallibility applies only to a very few dogmatic statements about faith and morals, and the rules are such that it would be very difficult for the Pope to make an infallible statement about Islam. Nonetheless, it seems to me that the Pope is guilty of a serious blooper, and he ought to make a sincere apology, rather than a bureaucratic one. Whatever it was he said, it came out sounding like Islam is an inherently violent religion. Al Qaeda responded by vowing to conquer the world, but Al Qaeda does not speak for most of Islam. It is essential the the Pope and all religious leaders do their best to recognize moderate Muslims and the contribution they have made to the world throughout their history. So, the Pope blew it, and now the Catholic Church has a diplomatic disaster - but I don't think he meant to express anything insulting to Islam. He just didn't think his remarks would be heard out of context. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: bobad Date: 19 Sep 06 - 09:02 PM Soap the Pope! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: GUEST Date: 19 Sep 06 - 08:49 PM Why pack the soap? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Mr Happy Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:44 PM 503 Service Unavailable -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The server has been placed offline by the operator. Please try again later. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- max@mudcat.org |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: bobad Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:33 PM Sack Rome! |
|
Subject: BS: Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy From: Mr Happy Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:20 PM Sack the Pope?? |
