BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 09:21 AM

mg "Keep Israel and Palestine as virtual homelands"? You've gotta be kidding. This is the real world, not some virtual concept. Israel is a real vibrant country, and Palestine could be too.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:43 PM

Christ WAS a Jew. Sounds like someone out there has a martyrdom complex to me.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:41 PM

Our christ was a jew

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 05:38 PM

Hi mom

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 04:26 PM

It is too much to ask any country to recognize any country without definite borders and without definite water treaties guaranteeing the security of the water system. The Palestinians have to give up a lot of their hopes to get their houses and lands back. I heard one prominent spokeswoman say this is more important to them than an actual Palestinian state...but at least stop the expansion and settlements. Find another satellite space or several throughout the world where Jewish people can establish communities, (same with Palestinians who must emigrate and I believe have exerted great pressure on each other not to) and keep Israel, and keep Palestine, as more like virtual homelands,   places of historical and religious and family signfiicance that people can visit and live and prosper elsewhere. That is how I have to see Ireland. I can't have it even though my ancestors, my fairly recent ancestors, were forced away. But I can visit it. I can visit South Boston. I can visit New York City where there are enclaves. That is about the best I can do.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:27 PM

Don't you dare! ;-)

I won't read them if you do.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:26 PM

"But reading all his sonnets is. "

I would agree with that, but have I asked THAT of you? Of the 1063, I bet I have not even offered you 400 of them...


But as long as you ARE asking for more sonnets....

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:23 PM

Recognizing Bearded Bruce is NOT too much to ask!

But reading all his sonnets is.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 02:13 PM

Abbas insists on honoring deals with Israel
Updated 10/4/2006 11:56 AM ET

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) — Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on Wednesday said any new Palestinian government must honor signed agreements with Israel.
Abbas laid down the demand shortly after saying that his efforts to reach a power-sharing agreement with the Islamic militant group Hamas have broken down. Hamas has rejected key international demands, including respecting past deals between Israel and the Palestinians.

Abbas, speaking alongside visiting Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, said there is "no indication" of a new dialogue with Hamas.

Rice on Wednesday called on Islamic militants to cooperate with Abbas and said the Hamas government cannot govern in the region.

But Abbas said his agreement with the ruling Hamas militant group on forming a coalition government was off.

"There is no dialogue now," Abbas said at a news conference with Bahraini Foreign Minister Sheikh Khalid Bin Ahmed Al-Khalifa.

A preliminary coalition agreement between Abbas' Fatah Party and Hamas, announced Sept. 11, "is over now, and we have to start from square one," he said, but he did not rule out the renewal of talks at a later date.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-10-04-rice-hamas_x.htm

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 11:51 AM

Sorry. You stated

"However,Israel is a racist,militarised and vicious state where the Palestinian people ,christian and moslem and indeed secular, are oppressed ,denied civil and human rights,beaten, shot and imprisoned often without trial. Their homes and land are being stolen and the Palestinian children half starved and terrorised."

as a fact: the other was merely your opinion, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Oct 06 - 10:43 AM

"The trouble with you zionists is that you do not recognise the rights of the Palestinian people to human or civil or national rights"

Since I DO recognize the rights of the Palestinian people to human, civli, and national rights ( having NEVER denied them the right to move to Jordan, the Mandate Palestine Arab Homeland, as opposed to so many Arab nations that HAVE restricted Jewish immigration to Israel) YOU have defined me as a non-zionist.

Would you care to present any facts in support of your statement "The trouble with you zionists is that you do not recognise the rights of the Palestinian people to human or civil or national rights"? Youy declare that to be a fact, but supply no factual basis for others to judge.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:56 PM

Hugo, is it possible to diasagree with you, without being a zionist?

Every time someone says something you don't like, you call them a Zionist, stick your fingers in your ears, and sing 'La La La La La', or the forum equivelent thereof.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 09:41 AM

What a gross lie to say that I hate Jews.Totally untrue.The trouble with you zionists is that you do not recognise the rights of the Palestinian people to human or civil or national rights.Anyone who speaks up for them including Jews across the world are attacked and insulted by being called anti semitic or self hating or racist.
There are indeed racists and anti semites out there and the far right parties in Britain and Europe are full of them. However,Israel is a racist,militarised and vicious state where the Palestinian people ,christian and moslem and indeed secular, are oppressed ,denied civil and human rights,beaten, shot and imprisoned often without trial. Their homes and land are being stolen and the Palestinian children half starved and terrorised.
These are the facts which you zionists choose to ignore cover up or whitewash.
hugo
hugo

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:25 PM

Hugo has demonstrated that he does not have very many facts at his diosposal, so I am trying to give him a few.

He might actually have something worthwhile to say, once he figures out that the facts actually do matter.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:36 PM

Hugo hates Jews. Whatever you say will continue to fall on deaf ears.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:09 PM

You know, Bruce, that you have this very rude habit of constantly dealing with facts. How can one raise the heat if you keep throwing this factual "cold water" on them. Poor hugo will develope a mental disorder. Stop it, you cad.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:42 PM

Out of 856,000 Jews living in Arab countries in 1948, the overwhelming majority found refuge from Arab persecution in Israel. The remaining Jews, like the Palestinians, were dispersed throughout the world. In the various countries that they inhabited previously, many had been wealthy and prestigious members of their prosperous and well-organized local Jewish communities. However, confronted with a political and social climate of intensified and unbearable hostility, they were forcibly uprooted, leaving behind their public and private property. Consequently, the majority arrived in Israel without any means of their own.



As most Jews came from countries in which they were repeatedly denied the opportunity of equal citizenship, at various times, different Arab countries imposed limitations on the Jews in the fields on education, professional life, and economic enterprise. When these circumstances compelled them to leave, the Arab states did not hesitate to proclaim appropriate decrees designed to strip the Jews of their possessions.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:41 PM

Algeria



In 1948 there were 140,000 Jews in Algeria. Before 1962 there were 60 Jewish communities, each maintaining at least one synagogue, one Rabbi and its own educational services. During the three months between May and July of 1962 almost all the Jewish of Algeria left the country, following the Evian Agreement, which granted independence to Algeria 10. Today, there remain merely 300 Jews.



During the struggle for independence, pressure was placed upon Jews to endorse the nationalistic cause. A spokesman for the Liberation Party indicated in 1960: "Jews will endure the consequences of their hesitant attitude when Algeria will come into being". In addition, the existing government also harassed them. Consequently, 14,000 Jews emigrated to Israel and another 125,000 to France, leaving behind only a tiny fraction of what used to be one of North Africa's largest Jewish communities 10.



Today, the few Jews that remain in Algeria no longer maintain any independent form of communal organization. They are under the supervision of the French Secretariat of the World Jewish Congress. In Algiers, for a community that numbered 30,000 in 1960, and had 12 synagogues, only one synagogue remains.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:40 PM

Morocco



The Jewish community of Morocco dates back to the destruction of the First Temple in the year 586 BCE. By 1948, this ancient community, the largest in North Africa, numbered 265,000. Composed primarily of businessmen, moneychangers, artisans and traders, the Jewish population was 73% urban and constituted 9% of the total urban population of Morocco. In 1947 a large Jewish community existed in Casablanca, with over 86,000 inhabitants 8. Other cities, which had large Jewish populations, were Marrakesh, Fez, Meknes and Rabat, each comprising a population of more than 15,000 Jews in 1947 9.



Immigration to Israel started upon the initiative of small groups who arrived at the time of Israel's independence. However, the waves of mass immigration, which brought a total of more than 250,000 Moroccan Jews to Israel, were prompted by anti-Jewish measures carried out in response to the establishment of the State of Israel. On June 4, 1949, riots broke out in northern Morocco killing and injuring dozens of Jews. Shortly afterwards, the Jews began to leave.



During the two-year period between 1955 and 1957 alone, over 70,000 Moroccan Jews arrived in Israel. In 1956 emigration to Israel was banned and by 1959 Zionist activities became illegal in Morocco. During these years more than 30,000 Jews left for France and the Americas. In 1963, the ban on emigration to Israel was lifted bringing another 100,000 to her shores.



Today, the Jewish community of Morocco has dwindled to less than 10% of its original size. Of the 17,000 Jews that remain, two-thirds live in Casablanca. Since 1964, 30 Jewish courts have been closed down, including the High Rabbinical Court. Jewish schools still exist, but many are under Muslim administration. There has been no Jewish press in Morocco since 1966 10.



Generally speaking, the Jews who remain in Morocco have a reasonably stable existence, however, occasional outbursts of anti-Israel sentiments make daily life for Jews insecure. Some representatives of the Israeli Knesset have lately been invited for peace talks in Rabat, by King Hassan and were well received.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:39 PM

Later, however, this trend was reversed, so that Jews in some Arab countries such as Syria and Yemen are held as hostages to this day.



ESTIMATED JEWISH POPULATION IN ARAB COUNTRIES

1948 AND 1976



_____________________________________________________________

                        1948                         1976

       __________________________________________________________



    Morocco                                           265,000                      17,000

    Algeria                                             140,000                            500

    Tunisia                                             105,000                         2,000                                    

    Libya                                                 38,000                              20

    Egypt                                                100,000                            200

    Iraq                                                   135,000                            400

    Syria                                                   30,000                         4,350

    Lebanon                                              5,000                            150

    Yemen                                                55,000                         1,000

    Aden                                                    8,000                                 0

    ________________________________________________________________

    Total                                                 881,000                        25,620




With the United Nations resolution on the partition of Palestine in November 1947, Arab riots broke out against numerous Jewish communities throughout the Arab world. Jewish shops, homes and synagogues were burned and looted; hundreds of Jews were murdered, thousands were imprisoned, their movement was restricted, emigration to Israel banned and many Jews were deprived of their citizenship. Jews who at one time were influential in commerce suddenly lost their holdings; bank accounts belonging to Jews were frozen, and property valued at millions of dollars was confiscated. As in previous centuries, Jews were further removed from government agencies and their admission to public office was severely restricted. They lost their means of survival and became hostages in their own countries of birth and origin. Consequently, they could no longer remain there. Where once Jewish communities flourished and thrived, their traces have been erased as Jews in large numbers were compelled to uproot and displace themselves and to leave all their property behind.



IMMIGRATION OF JEWS FROM ARAB LANDS

TO ISRAEL FROM MAY 15, 1948 TO MAY 22, 1972

_____________________________________________

Country                                        Number   

_____________________________________________

                                        Morocco   )

                                        Tunisia    )*                                    330,833

                                        Algeria    )                     

                                        Libya                                                35,666

                                        Egypt                                                29,325

                                        Syria       )*                                     10,402

                                        Lebanon )                                    

                                        Yemen    )*                                     50,552

                                        Aden       )                  

Iraq                                                 129,292 __________________________________________________

                                        Total                                              586,070

·       Individual statistics for these countries were not recorded before 1950.



Jewish and Palestinian immigration



It is not generally known that the number of Palestinians who fled the newly formed State of Israel was surpassed by the number of Jews who were forced to emigrate from Arab countries. During the 1947 United Nations debates, the head of the Egyptian delegation warned that "the lives of a million Jews in Moslem countries will be jeopardized by the establishment of the Jewish State". Haj Amin el-Husseini, chairman of the Palestine Arab Higher Executive, told that body, "If a Jewish State were established in Palestine, the position of the Jews in the Arab countries would become very precarious". "Governments", he added ominously, "have always been unable to prevent mob excitement and violence". When the State of Israel was established, the Jews in the Arab countries became hated outcasts in their own lands, terrorized, imprisoned and often banished. This led to mass immigration of Jews who sadly realized there was no future for them in the land of their birth.



A review of the behavior of the various Arab countries toward their Jewish minorities reveals some difference.



1.    Iraq



Less than a year after Israeli independence was declared in 1948, repressive measures were taken in Iraq. Thousands of Jews were imprisoned or taken into "protective custody" on charges of "Zionism". Jews applied in large numbers for exit permits to Israel, but legislation was quickly passed freezing Jewish bank accounts and forbidding Jews to dispose of their property without special permission. Jewish emigrants who succeeded in obtaining exit visas were allowed to take only fifty kilograms of luggage per person. Soon after, a decree was issued blocking the property of all Iraqi Jews who, by leaving the country, "had relinquished their nationality" and Jewish property was sold at public auction. A year later, laws were passed, restricting the movements of Jews, barring them from schools, hospitals and other public institutions, and refusing them import and export licenses to carry on their businesses. The program was so effective, that by the middle of July 1950 more than 110,000 Iraqi Jews had registered for emigration.



The Jewish community in Iraq had been one of the oldest and largest in the Arab world, and in 1948 it numbered 135,000. Over 77,000 lived in Baghdad alone, comprising a fourth of the capital's population. The community was wealthy and prestigious, and before World War II, Jews held a dominant place in the import trade and occupied high government positions.



The overwhelming majority of the population was relocated to Israel, as a result of intensified anti-Jewish actions which started with the UN resolution on the partition of Palestine in 1947 and continued till after the cease fire with Israel in 1949. Hundreds were killed and imprisoned during several anti-Jewish riots. Jewish property was confiscated and Zionism, the wish to return to the Land of Zion, became a capital crime. Jews were thus forced to flee and to leave all of their belongings behind. Between 1949 and 1952, 123,371 Iraqi Jews were airlifted directly to Israel in what became to be known as "Operation Ezra and Nehemia".

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:29 PM

It is a nonsense that Jews and Arabs are" blood sworn enemies".
It is Zionism which has poisoned Israeli and Arab/Palestinian relationships.Prior to the drive to establish a zionist state in Palestine relationships were generally good.Indeed when the Jews of Spain fled from Christian persecution they were welcomed by muslims in North Africa and the Middle East.
Hugo

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 12:16 PM

From a purely practical if not comical point of view I believe the Jews made a fatal mistake by establishing their new home in the midst of blood sworn enemies. The president of Iran asked why they didn't create Isreal in Bavaria.

I ask why not South Carolina. A nation within a nation is nothing new to America. Just ask the Indians.

Hilton Head sure beats the Dead Sea and stinkin desert wilderness.

Sure South Carolina has some good ol boy rednecks but these Nascar types are still a whole bunch friendlier than the Arabs.

easy come easy go.

Comon Speilberg jump on board the South Carolina "NEW ISREAL"

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 11:37 AM

I told them I was a Druid on the last census. I see it didn't make a difference. (That was just after I mentioned that my religion was none of their damned business and they said I had to answer.)

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 08:20 AM

Canada-

Religion
Main article: Religion in Canada
Population by religion. Only those religions with more than 250,000 respondants are included here. The census question was partly aided -- that is, the questionnaire form gave examples of some of the denominations but not others. The actual question asked is noted below.

Religion Total responses % of Population
Roman Catholic 12,793,125 43.2
No religion 4,796,325 16.2
United Church 2,839,125 9.6
Anglican 2,035,500 6.9
Christian n.i.e. 780,450 2.6
Baptist 729,470 2.5
Lutheran 606,590 2.0
Muslim 579,640 2.0
Protestant n.i.e. 549,205 1.9
Presbyterian 409,830 1.4
Pentecostal 369,475 1.2
Jewish 329,995 1.1
Buddhist 300,345 1.0
Hindu 297,200 1.0
Sikh 278,410 0.9

The actual question asked: "What is this person's religion? Indicate a specific denomination or religion even if this person is not currently a practising member of that group.

For example, Roman Catholic, Ukrainian Catholic, United Church, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Greek Orthodox, Jewish, Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, etc."

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:11 AM

BTW,

Canada Religions

Roman Catholic 42.6%, Protestant 23.3% (including United Church 9.5%, Anglican 6.8%, Baptist 2.4%, Lutheran 2%), other Christian 4.4%, Muslim 1.9%, other and unspecified 11.8%, none 16% (2001 census)

SOURCES: CIA World Factbook; World Jewish Congress (WJC), 1998; 2002 Report of Jehovah's Witnesses Worldwide; World Values Survey; Catholic Hierarchy.org; International Religious Freedom Report 2004




US Religions

Protestant 52%, Roman Catholic 24%, Mormon 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 1%, other 10%, none 10% (2002 est.)




Australia Religions

Catholic 26.4%, Anglican 20.5%, other Christian 20.5%, Buddhist 1.9%, Muslim 1.5%, other 1.2%, unspecified 12.7%, none 15.3% (2001 Census)


United Kingdom


Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%, Muslim 2.7%, Hindu 1%, other 1.6%, unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census)


Gaza Strip

Muslim (predominantly Sunni) 98.7%, Christian 0.7%, Jewish 0.6%


Germany

Protestant 34%, Roman Catholic 34%, Muslim 3.7%, unaffiliated or other 28.3%

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:02 AM

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:01 AM

Jordanian Religions

Sunni Muslim 92%, Christian 6% (majority Greek Orthodox, but some Greek and Roman Catholics, Syrian Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, and Protestant denominations), other 2% (several small Shi'a Muslim and Druze populations) (2001 est.)

SOURCES: CIA World Factbook; International Religious Freedom Report 2004



Israeli Religions


Religions
Jewish 76.5%, Muslim 15.9%, Arab Christians 1.7%, other Christian 0.4%, Druze 1.6%, unspecified 3.9% (2003)

SOURCES: CIA World Factbook; World Jewish Congress (WJC), 1998; 2002 Report of Jehovah's Witnesses Worldwide; International Religious Freedom Report 2004; adventiststatistics.org 2004 Annual Report 31 December 2004

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:21 AM

"The political state of Israel is nade up of poles, germans, canadians russians etc etc."


The majority of the present population of Israel was born there.


"On the eve of Rosh Hashanah, 5767, the State of Israel's population stands at approximately 6,990,700 inhabitants – compared to 806,000 residents who lived in Israel in 1948, according Central Bureau of Statistics data.

Of the total population, 5,313,800 are Jews (76 percent) while 1,377,100 million (20 percent) are Arabs. Just under 300,000 (4 percent) classified as "others" are mostly new immigrants and their families who are not registered as Jews in the Interior Ministry.

In the past year the Israeli population has grown by 118,000 people. The majority of the increase (104,000) is due to natural births. During this one year period some 138,000 births were recorded in Israel. During that same period, 21,000 new immigrants made aliyah to Israel.

...
Of the country's Jewish and non-Arab population , 65 percent were born in Israel. In 1948, only 35 percent of Jews born in the country.

The Jews and non-Arabs who were not born in Israel number 1,930,000; those who came from the former Soviet Union comprise the largest foreign-born group in Israel. In addition to the 950,000 that came from the former USSR, 157,000 people living in Israel were born in Morocco, 110,000 are from Romania, and 77,000 are originally North American, 70,000 from Iraq, 70,000 from Ethiopia and 64,000 from Poland. Three million people have immigrated to Israel since 1948, more than one million of them since 1990; 26,000 immigrated in the past year."

source

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:08 AM

"Those palestinians who have been denied their land etc (the non jewish ones) were kicked off by the brits to make way for foreigners."


Just as the non-Moslum Pakistanis, non-Moslum Bangladesh and non- Hindu Indians were kicked off THEIR land- but Britain has always sorted things out by religion. You ignore that the state of Jordan was reserved as the ARAB homeland, with NO Jews allowed.

Why do you keep ignoring the Arab Jews that were denied THEIR land and kicked out of Arab countries? It seems like ONLY the Moslums have any rights, by the comments of some here.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 09:11 PM

Great, so we're actually dealing with a civil war then. That makes evetything so much better...

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:33 PM

people keep making the mistake of seeing the problem as being between Jews and Palestinians.

The point is this - the jews who lived in palestine before '48 were palestinians.

There were palestinian jews, moslems and christians.

They were all native and had "roots" in the soil.

The political state of Israel is nade up of poles, germans, canadians russians etc etc.

Those palestinians who have been denied their land etc (the non jewish ones) were kicked off by the brits to make way for foreigners.

Yet again politicized religion obscures common sense

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,IBO
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 06:31 PM

I RECOGNISE ISRAEL,ITS THAT PLACE WHERE THEY KEEP BOMBING EACH OTHER,ISNT IT

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 03:11 PM

"War fought between Egypt on one side, and Israel, Britain and France on the other. The background for the war were disputes over rights of control over the traffic passing through the Suez Canal, who was to own the canal as well as the continued clashes between Israel and Egypt that had occurred in all the years that had followed since the end of the First Palestinian War in 1949.
The war had serious impact on the moral and political strength of the nations involved. Britain and France achieved nothing but to prove their lack of political insight and maturity, as their actions nearly provoked more countries to enter into a big scale war. Egypt's president Gamal Abdel Nasser rose to star status, as Egypt achieved all of its initial goals, despite the losses on the battle field. This war also became the start of USA's leading position as mediator in the Middle East, a position the country held up until early 1990's."

:"The Suez Crisis [1] (Arabic: ÃÒãÉ ÇáÓæíÓ - ÇáÚÏæÇä ÇáËáÇËí) was a war fought on Egyptian territory in 1956. The conflict pitted Egypt against an alliance between the United Kingdom, France and Israel. The United States also played a crucial role, albeit not a military one.

This alliance against Egypt largely took place as a result of the Egyptian leader Gamal Abdel Nasser's action of nationalizing the Suez Canal Company, which operated the Suez Canal, an important asset to French and British economies, particularly as a chokepoint in world oil shipments. British policy makers initially feared an Israeli attack on Egypt, and sought cooperation with the United States throughout 1956 to deal with Egyptian-Israeli tensions.

The alliance between the two European nations and Israel was largely one of convenience; the European nations had economic and trading interests in the Suez Canal, while Israel wanted to reopen the canal for Israeli shipping and end Egyptian-supported guerrilla incursions.

When the USSR threatened to intervene on behalf of Egypt, Canadian Secretary of State for External Affairs Lester B. Pearson feared a larger war and came up with a clever plan to separate the opposing forces by placing United Nations forces between them to act as a buffer zone or 'human shield' (he later won a Nobel Peace Prize for his role in ending the conflict).

The Crisis resulted in the resignation of the British Conservative Prime Minister, Sir Anthony Eden, and marked the completion of the shift in the global balance of power from traditional European powers to the United States and the Soviet Union and was a milestone in the decline of the British Empire."

"The operation to take the canal was highly successful from a military point of view, but a political disaster due to external forces. Along with Suez, the United States was also dealing with the near-simultaneous Soviet-Hungary crisis, and faced the public relations embarrassment (especially in the eyes of the Third World) of criticizing the Soviet Union's military intervention there while not also criticizing its two principal European allies' actions.

Thus, the Eisenhower administration forced a cease-fire on Britain and France, which it had previously told the Allies it would not do. Part of the pressure that the United States used against Britain was financial, as Eisenhower threatened to sell the United States reserves of the British pound and thereby precipitate a collapse of the British currency. After Saudi Arabia started an oil embargo against Britain and France, the U.S. refused to fill the gap, until Britain and France agreed to a rapid withdrawal. [4] There was also a measure of discouragement for Britain in the rebuke by the Commonwealth Prime Ministers St. Laurent of Canada and Menzies of Australia at a time when Britain was still continuing to regard the Commonwealth as an entity of importance as the residue of the British Empire and as an automatic supporter in its effort to remain a world power."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1956_Suez_War

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 03:04 PM

"Israel has already invaded the Suez Canal " back in the 50's- being pushed by Great Britain and France- The US actually did not approve of it.


A little knowledge of history MIGHT make your arguments somewhat more reasonable, or at least worth the effort of reading.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 02:58 PM

"If any of the current Arab regimes step out of line they now that Israel can unleash its powerful army against them as has happened in the past in the caes of Egypt,Syria,Jordan and the Lebanon."


Such as when??? All REALLY big exporters of oil, I see.....

Your unsupported claims do not impress me as having much to do with the reality of the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 02:49 PM

Behind the US support for Israel is indeed the demand by the US to control directly or indirectly the oilfields of the Middle East.
Israel does not produce oil itself but acts as a guard dog for US interests in the region.
If any of the current Arab regimes step out of line they now that Israel can unleash its powerful army against them as has happened in the past in the caes of Egypt,Syria,Jordan and the Lebanon.
THe US has spent hundreds of billions of pounds supporting the Israeli military precisely because Israel can act as a threat.
Of course national and democratic movements in the Middle East have been tamed,shackled and broken by US policies whichhas contributed to the rise of Islamic movements in the region.
Israel has already invaded the Suez Canal and its forces are training kurdish nationalists who are intent on separating from Iraq taking the oilfields of the north with them.
Israel is also being lined up to attack Iran when given the green light by the US.
Yes Big Oil plays a big part in the arming of Israel by the USA.
HUGO

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:16 PM

Habib Issa wrote in the New York Lebanese daily newspaper At Hoda on June 8, 1951 :

The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade... He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean. -- Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property and to stay temporarily in neighbouring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 05:07 PM

After the 1948 War for Independence and the Jordanian takeover, the Palestinian Arabs never attempted to establish an independent state in the territory alloted to them by the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan. They cooperated with its unilateral annexation by Jordan, becoming part of Jordan's political system. Across the barbed wire that marked the dividing line, Jordanian East Jerusalem was not made the capital, even for its Palestinian residents, in 19 years of Jordanian rule. The capital remained in Amman. There was no outcry of claims of "Palestinian" identity being submerged by Jordan.


The reason there was no Arab outrage over the annexation was because Jordan is a state whose ethnic majority is Palestinian Arabs. On the other hand, the Palestinians of Jordan are disenfranchised by the ruling Hashemite minority. Despite this fact, in the years following the annexation the Palestinians displayed no interest in achieving "self-determination" in Hashemite Jordan. It is only the presence of Jews, apparently, that incites this claim.

The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. During the 1948-1967 period of its occupation, Jordan permitted terrorists to launch raids into Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century emigration of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from majority Arab lands. Typically, this emigration followed discrimination, harassment, persecution, and financial confiscation on the part of the majority population and/or government agencies. Approximately two-thirds of affected Jews emigrated to the modern State of Israel; other common refuge destinations included the United States, Canada and France. Disruption overall was significant: the ancestors of many Jews had resided within Arab lands for centuries before the advent and spread of Islam in the seventh century CE. The ancestors of others had immigrated in later centuries. Previously sporadic Jewish emigration from Arab lands accelerated following the establishment of Israel in 1948. The process accelerated as Arab nations under French, British and Italian colonial rule or protection gained independence. Further Arab-Israeli wars were sustained by, and in turn exacerbated, anti-Jewish sentiment within the various Arab-majority states. Within a few years after the Six Day War there were only remnants of Jewish communities left in most Arab lands.

Many, but by no means all, writers on the topic regard the Jewish exodus from Arab lands as a historical parallel to the Palestinian exodus during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War and the Six-Day War. Jews in Arab lands have been reduced by more than 99% since 1948 while the Arab population of Israel has grown larger than its 1948 base.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 04:41 PM

On 29 November 1947, the United Nations General Assembly, with a two-thirds majority international vote, passed the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine (United Nations General Assembly Resolution 181), a plan to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning the territory into separate Jewish and Arab states, with the Greater Jerusalem area (encompassing Bethlehem) coming under international control. Jewish leaders (including the Jewish Agency), accepted the plan, while Palestinian Arab leaders rejected it and refused to negotiate. Neighboring Arab and Muslim states also rejected the partition plan. The Arab community reacted violently after the Arab Higher Committee declared a strike and burned many buildings and shops. As armed skirmishes between Arab and Jewish paramilitary forces in Palestine continued, the British mandate ended on May 15, 1948, the establishment of the State of Israel having been proclaimed the day before (see Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel). The neighboring Arab states and armies (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Transjordan, Holy War Army, Arab Liberation Army, and local Arabs) immediately attacked Israel following its declaration of independence, and the 1948 Arab-Israeli War ensued. Consequently, the partition plan was never implemented.


Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Arab states eliminated Palestine as a distinct territory. It was divided between Israel, Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

In addition to the UN-partitioned area, Israel captured 26% of the Mandate territory west of the Jordan river. Jordan captured and annexed about 21% of the Mandate territory. Jerusalem was divided, with Jordan taking the eastern parts, including the old city, and Israel taking the western parts. The Gaza Strip was captured by Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 02:21 PM

Article 6.

The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918p/sanremo.html

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 02:18 PM

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_ww1_british_mandate.php


"Unfortunately for the Zionists and counter to the whole expressed purpose of the Mandate in the first place, by this action more than three-quarters of the territory of the British Mandate was taken away from the potential Jewish Homeland without any corresponding action favoring the Palestinian Jews. The squeeky Arab wheel was greased with concessions at the sole expense of the Jewish population."

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:38 PM

Let me see...


640,000 Palestinians flee from what becomes Israel, while numerous others stay and become Israeli citizens. No Arab nation will absorb them, even though the state of Jordan was specifically formed to be the "Arab Homeland" of Mandate Palestine.

Meanwhile, 820,000 Jews are driven out of Arab nations, and all are settled in Israel.

Now the Palestinians demand the land of Israel, for the 640,000 who left. By MY calculations, the Israelis should demand 1.3 times the area of Israel from Jordan, for THEIR refugees. Just about the size of the Entire West Bank, which under pre-WWII rulings was to have been a Jewish Homeland.


So, given the sacred "right of Return" the Arabs support, Israel is entirely justified in annexing the ENTIRE West Bank. Any Arab settlers there can go back to the Arab Homeland, Jordan.

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:24 PM

In 1923 the British "chopped off" 75% of the proposed Jewish Palestinian homeland to form an Arab Palestinian Nation of "Trans-Jordan," meaning "across the Jordan River." The Palestinian Arabs now had THEIR homeland... the remaining 25% of the original Palestinian territory (west of the Jordan River) was to be the Jewish Palestinian homeland. However, sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then or now and they were determined to get ALL of that remaining 25%. Encouraged and incited by growing Arab nationalism throughout the Middle East, the Arabs of that small remaining Palestinian territory launched never-ending murderous attacks upon the Jewish Palestinians in an effort to drive them out. Most terrifying were the Hebron slaughters of 1929 and later the 1936-39 "Arab Revolt." The British, at first tried to maintain order but soon (due to the large oil deposits being discovered throughout the Arab Middle East) turned a blind eye.

.....

Although the Churchill´s White Paper stated that the Mandate "is not susceptible of change" the British sliced 76% of the land, east of the Jordan River, and gave it Emir Abdullah (from Hejaz, now Saudi Arabia). That land was renamed Trans-Jordan. Not even a year had passed and Great Britain was in violation of Article 5 of its Mandate, which stated "no Palestine territory shall be ceded or leased to, or in any way placed under the control of, the Government of any foreign Power." From this point on, Jewish immigration to newly partitioned Trans-Jordan was forbidden whilst a blind eye was turned to Arab immigration to the west [of the Jordan River], in complete violation of article 2, which demanded "safeguarding the civil rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion".

.....


After rejecting, two years earlier, the idea of a Jewish partition in Palestine recommended by the Peel Commission, and after excluding Jews from 76% of the land rightfully theirs as Jews and as citizen of the Mandate, the British decided to impose a solution; it was called the MacDonald´s White Paper. This paper limited legitimate Jewish immigration to 75,000 over a period of five years. In order to get Arab support against Nazi Germany, the British Government left millions of Jews at the hand of the Nazis, condemning them to die in the most horrific circumstances, which we now know, and forbidding them to go to the land promised to them by the League of Nations 17 years earlier. The League of Nations slammed the British stating that "the policy set out in the [MacDonald] White Paper was not in accordance with the interpretation which, in agreement with the Mandatory Power and the Council, the Commission had placed upon the Palestine Mandate."

During their years as a mandatory power, Great Britain sliced the Jewish National Home and did what they could to dilute Jewish presence in the Holy Land. In 1947 the British proposed the land be split once again and gave birth to UNGAR Resolution 181. They knew that the General Assembly [that passed this resolution] had no power, because General Assembly resolutions are under Chapter VI of the UN Charter, which is not "imperative" and only "give advices", as the Syrian representative said when he rejected the partition plan, but it was nevertheless accepted by David Ben-Gurion. At the end of that year, the Americans declared an embargo on arm sales to the region "hoping it would avoid bloodshed", but the Jordanians, Egyptians, Iraqis and Syrians where fully armed by the British and the French. Britain had a knack of leaving behind countless munitions and arms in the Arab lands they mandated. Even though the partition was accepted by the General Assembly, the Nations of the World created an environment where the Jewish State would be "born dead".

History decided otherwise. The infant Jewish State managed to import arms from Eastern Europe and, against all the odds, defeated her enemies. Britain´s plan to split the land in three was never accomplished. Trans-Jordan was renamed Jordan when it was granted "independence" in 1946, mirroring British policy, to allow citizenship to any citizen of the Mandate excluding Jews [as codified in their Constitution].

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:21 PM

I agree, mg. But that is not what this person wants. He refuses to acknowledge that the Israeli's also have claims. He also will not acknowledge any of the dispossession that occurred prior to the 20th century. My point is quite simple. His type of rhetoric will do nothing to bring peace to this land. I have consistently said that both have a right to a homeland, and that the way forward is at the table. I have said that the wrongs done to the Palestinians must be acknowledged, but I will not put them on a pedestal. They take actions designed to bring destruction and death to their own, and then proclaim them martyrs, and the Israeli's as bloodthirsty animals. The way to justice for the Palestinian does not lie with the destruction of Jews and Israel. It is fine to demand recognition of the Palestinian grievances, as long as you demand recognition of the Israeli's as well.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:17 PM

Hmmmm, thought for the day:

Do we think the Gulf states would be freindlier towards the US, and the West in general if we (the west) had not supported the existence of Israel?
If we hadn't then Israel would have ceased to exist some decades ago, and so the confict which has been the source of the rabid Anti-Americanism of that area would also have ceased. Would it be cheaper, easier and safer for big oil to operate in countries that didn't regard the Stars and Stripes as a target?

Maybe, just maybe, Big Oil isn't in charge of everything.

Any answers Hugo, or just a rant?

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:13 PM

Oil? From ISRAEL????????


Get out of the sun, NOW!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 01:11 PM

The problem is that you are confusing desire for homeland with desire to maintain property, actual physical property that grew oranges, olives, goats, whatever, that was in your family, that you had deeds to. That is a pretty major conflict that I can only see rightously going to the current property owners with deeds to the land. Just because you want a historical homeland, and many people do and the world is full of exiles, you can't just take it back after generations have passed..hundreds and hundreds and thousands of years back. You and I, Mr. Mick, can not talk about how our people were forced out of Ireland by famines and clearances etc. and go and take our ancestral lands back, much as we might want to. Lots of other examples to be thought of. And we acknowledge that we are on Native American lands..I am on Chinook lands. We can't restore old wrongs here and there without totally upturning the world. There have been terrible injustices done to the Palestinians regarding their lands. We have to look at that squarely. mg

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 12:48 PM

Interesting tactic there, hugo. Just continue on with the demagogic statements, but answer none of my assertions. Not sure, but it seems you have no answers that have to do with substance, or that don't fit into your neat package. Fair enough. Retreat to slogans, and let others be about the work of finding a way out of this deathmatch.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: (recognizing Israel) too much to ask?
From: GUEST,hugo
Date: 26 Sep 06 - 12:14 PM

While you ache for the Palestinian youth they are being murdered ,bullied ,beaten and terrorised.They have been imprisoned in large numbers often without trial.They have been expelled from their homes by thugs in IDF uniform and zionist thugs in civilian clothes.
Time indeed for the gun to go but it is being fired by the Israeli military along with missiles,rubber bullets,artillery shells ,cluster bombs and bunker bustin'bombs.
And standing behind Israel is the USA which has armed and funded Israel for Big Oil for the past 50 years or so.
hugo