BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna

Subject: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MALAWI_MADONNA?SITE=CAWOO&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-10-13-14-36-55

A week appears to be a long time.

A week ago there was little boy in Malawi whose name few knew and even fewer appeared to want or to care much about.

Now it seems that how this little boy may be treated by Madonna and family is of great concern to the courts and the world.

At least his material needs will be met - which I suspect will not be the case with many others of his age in Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:14 PM

Strikes me as somewhat absurd -- given the under-capacity of social organizations in Malawi charged with protecting children -- to put any such provisos on this one lucky boy making good his escape. If I were in his shoes I would do anything to be on a plane to England.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: NH Dave
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 01:30 PM

Many poverty stricken countries restrict the adoption of their children out of their country for fear of the black eye the adoption will give their country. They fear, and rightly so, that such adoptions prove that they are incapable of providing for these orphans.

No one said it was right, just that it plays up all of their other problems.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 02:13 PM

No doubt materially his life will be enriched by the adoption. I am sure there will be plenty of visits to and fro his home town. She has the resources to make this happen.

I can also see hourly documentaries aired yearly to update us on his journey. This will most likely financially reward all his family back home to some extent. It wouldn't look good to pan from shots of little David in his designer gear toddling into a private nursery to shots of his grandparents starving and thirsty.

Why she didn't choose to adopt one of the many children in the UK on the waiting adoption lists is her choice it seems. Should she be forced to take on a ten year old with behavioural needs who is the result of a failing care sytem? I don't think she should.

This is one of those times it appears when money does talk. Would David's life be better if he were left in the Malawi orphanage? Probably not. Would Madonna have adopted a child from UK if she couldn't adopt David? Almost definitely not.

Good luck to David and his family. Both in the UK and Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:07 PM

Would it take anyone else a mere week to get everything required?

Would she get better publicity if she'd taken Shereeen off the Estate and out of Chavdom?

Probably not... I'm actually glad the authorities are questioning his future with her.

She could do a lot more with her money than just succour one boy.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:32 PM

She could do a lot more with her money than just succour one boy.

I understand that she is.

But even if she wasn't - a liftimes commitment in succouring one orphan boy as one of her family, is a lot more than many of us who judge her - are prepared to do with our time and money.

Which may not be much when compared to Madonna's millions - makes us all practicly millionares compared to most of the third world.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Big Mick
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 03:42 PM

By all accounts she is a fine parent, as is Mr. Ritchie. They, through their charitable organization, have put their money where their mouth is for the children of Malawi. In the process, apparently they have been taken by, and intend to adopt one of the children. Good for them.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 06 - 05:21 PM

Liz I think the one thing Madonna doesn't need is publicity. And to agree with mick - she does an awful lot for charity.

Which leaves us with the reason for her doing it, and lets not forget Guy in all this, is sheer love and good heartedness.

Some people don't like to see those traits in people they have already judged.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 04:20 AM

I've never liked Madonna, but she is surely improvong this childs life, can't be bad.

eric

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:36 PM

I think it is wonderful she has done this, and benefits will outweigh the negative aspects of removing him from his home etc. I think however she should perhaps have chosen someone who had no family at all, which is the case for many, so he does not feel he has to choose between two fathers, etc., if indeed he does. But I am allfor it and the more publicity the better and she is doing this in conjunction with setting up a huge orphanage in the country. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:43 PM

Madonna only does things for publicity. Ok, so it benefits one boy....which is good...but she would not have done so if Africa were not the latest celebrity fad.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 05:59 PM

The woman makes me spit, everything she does has to be done in the glare of publicity.
Of course she wouldn't adopt in the UK, where it is unlikely she would have been allowed to adopt a black child. It is discouraged here for a child to be brought up by adoptive parents outside his/her racial heritage.
It's not what could be called a selfless act by any stretch of the imagination.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:04 PM

She did her utmost to evade the glare of publicity on this one. Whether she is rolling out of a nightclub drunk or adopting a child she is going to be hounded by the press. She chose to do the latter. Having spent the last few years and millions of pounds in Malawi she is still being criticised. Ah well she won't lose any sleep over it.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: pdq
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:48 PM

Madonna is a sociopath. She won't lose any sleep over anything.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 07:49 PM

She speaks very highly of you.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: pdq
Date: 17 Oct 06 - 08:04 PM

Keep that quiet, will you. It never happened. Besides, it was along time ago.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 12:27 PM

"She did her utmost to evade the glare of publicity on this one'
----------------------------------------------------------------

So what was all the video footage of her dancing like a dervish with the natives, and wearing her designer clothes while posing alongside the poor of that boy's village about then?

Some of you dopes are so easy to suck in.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 01:21 PM

"When you go to Rome do as the Romans do". I think she's got some there. It to bad more don't do the same. I dislike the woman but that's changing fast.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,ibo
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 04:26 PM

Will she breast feed him,lucky kid

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: billybob
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 06:03 PM

At least now we all know about the plight of the children in that country, we can all sponsor a child for a few pounds a year,Madge has given millions to an orphenage there and David hopefully will get us to help too by his being in the public eye. Come on you lot.... money where your mouth is!! What now Giok??

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 06 - 09:25 PM

Perhaps young black boys are once again becomming the fashion accessories for the well-to-do that they were in 17th Century London & other European capitals. Wonder if Madonna intends to dress him in livery?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:45 AM

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:48 AM

I am very cynical about this, obviously the price of a little black baby these days is £3million. Wonder if she got the crocodile skin handbag too?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,18 Oct 06 12.27 am
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:53 AM

The last GUEST wasn't me.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,Different than all of the above
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 12:17 PM

The only thing that stinks about this story is the British tabloid press villifying Madonna for her charity work, and being perfectly sexist about it as usual (I believe there is a celebrity couple adopting this boy, not a single female celebrity), feeding the usual British begrudgery frenzy.

No one on the planet is worse than the Brits when it comes to this sort of icon smashing begrudgery. No one. It just makes them all look so mean and awful and selfish, not Madonna.

I'm no Madonna fan, and I'm often cynical about celebrity charity work. But not always. There are celebrities who do a lot of good work on behalf of "good works" projects.

What bothers me most is the lies the British press keep spreading about this. Apparently, this is an adoption that has been in the works for far longer than a week. The Ritchies choice to adopt this particular child brings attention to one of the problems facing Africa as it relates to the AIDS crisis especially: that of fathers abandoning their children when the mother dies.

People don't like to talk about how sexist much of Africa is, and how much sexist "traditional African life" is contributing to the AIDs crisis, particularly the spread of AIDs to women of child bearing age because men refuse to use condoms and stop having sex when they contract the disease.

If the Ritchie's adoption of this child opens up even a few peoples' eyes to the crisis, it will benefit far more than just one child.

I'm no celebrity worshipper. For instance, I can't stand Bono. However, I have to admit the guy has been tireless in his campaign to erase third world debt. Now, I don't think that is the right solution to the problems being created by global capitalist domination, but at least he has put his money where his mouth is. The Ritchies seem to have put themselves on a path some celebrities take as they mature, and look for other ways to influence the world beyond their entertainment industry roots.

Lots of billionaires and millionaires do this sort of thing, so why the special scorn for Madonna? And not for Madonna and Guy both, hmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 01:34 PM

We do seem to be a lot harder on our pop stars than our politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 01:41 PM

And how convenient is that for the politicians? And people wonder why the mainstream press is more interested in Madonna than what is happening at 10 Downing Street or Westminster.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:12 PM

Problem with Madonna is that she is a Total narcissist of the worst order.

Having this child is not about the child, it is about her ego.

Go find out for yourself.

Madonna is incapable of talking or singing on any subject without somehow relating it back to herself in a way that somehow puts her at the centre of it.

Mark my words, when the official interview comes out, it will be about "how much I have grown" and "how this has all changed me" and she'll probably take the opportunity to say a few things about kabbalah while she's at it.

... Kabbalah's great because it really allows me to be honest with myself about who I am and how I really feel and I can really explore my real feelings in a real and honest way and I can ask my mind my body and my soul the same question and be in touch with myself ...

... and thinking about world affairs has really helped me broaden my mind and I have become so much wiser and I am growing out of my box and my boundaries and horizons are expanding and my life is taking a new turn ...

... and being a mother has made me reevaluate who I am and I have seen myself throughh different eyes, the eyes of a child ...

... and adopting a malawian baby has made me go so far up my own arse that I just have to tell the whole world all about how I feel about it and yet agaiin I'm causing huge controversy by highlighting the plight of ... erm ... a multimillionairess trying to adopt a child ...

... and nobody will ask me anything about the actual issues people actually face day to day in malawi, and I will not actually allow the conversation to be about that, because then it would be about somebody else and not me and this is about my journey and development and you could all learn so much from me and my uniquely valuable experience ...

... BLAH BLAH BLAH ...

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Kara
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:33 PM

I'm with Madonna on this one. The publicity will only do the children of Malawi good as 3 weeks ago most people didn't even know there was a problem in Malawi.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:39 PM

whetther it's true or not will probably never be known for sure, but check this out

a bit embarrassing?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

If people didn't know malawi was poor before this then they are either incalculably thick or weren't interested in the first place.

If the latter is true, then reading and unending deluge of articles about madonna's problems is unlikely to change their attitude, and when this episode is over they will all go back to not caring.

The only articles I have seen on this issue have been about Madonna, and the issue of celebs adopting babies. This thread is about madonna and celebs adopting babies.

At no point have I seen the media, madonna or this thread turn round and start to discuss the issue of poverty in malawi.

That discussion remains the domain of relief workers and "loony" political activists.

I know a few relief workers, and I know which celebrities they feel gratitude towards for their help in the third world.

Joanna Lumley is one. But you didn't know that, because when the camera's turn up, she points them at the suffering around her. Whenn the journalists start asking questions, she refers them to the experts ie the locals and the relief workers.

On the hitlist are people like robbie wiliams and martine mccutcheon - and Madonna.

Why? because the story always ends up being about them and what they have experienced and how they have reacted, and the issue becomes sidelined in hhe blink of an eye.

When Robbie went to mozambique the issue was his depression. When Martine went to Ethiopia with water aid (all expenses paid) she went home having done nothing because the hotel wasn't up to scratch and it was just generally too hot and uncomfortable.

Madge is a Narcissist - iie self serving and self absorbed. Don't be fooled.

Try and see beyond loyalties here and tell me what has been brought to light other than the question of Madonna and celebs adopting babies.

PS 3,000,000 doesn't buy a baby, it buys public approval, cos of her work for "chariddee"

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: pdq
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:07 PM

I believe GUEST lox really hit the nail squarely on the head with the 04:12 post.

BTW, I don't think she thinks of others as people. Look at the picture of Madonna in the Malawi orphanage. She look like a spoiled teenager in a pet store saying "I want that one".

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 05:56 PM

I have no earthly idea what Madonna thinks. I'm neither defending nor villifying her for this adoption, because I simply do not have enough accurate information to make an informed judgment on it one way or the other.

From what I've read in the press accounts, nor does anyone else.

But the press lying about the terms of the adoption, and the                                                                                        "activists" opposing it being every bit as misinformed about the circumstances as the press (not to mention being white middle class Westerners) hasn't done much to convince me that Madonna deserves the negative press she is getting on this.

And to compare the papparazzi press following Madonna, to Joanna Lumley's self-effacing goodness--that's intended as a joke, right?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: billybob
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 06:13 PM

ok your views about Madge are yours!
However if we all sponsored a child in Africa we would not even notice the money and we would give a child a future, education and who knows what else.We may all have known what poverty there was and about the children who lost their parents to aids, but maybe the publicity has got to those peop;e who did not know?
We do not know how long the Ritche family have been in the process of this adoption, but now it is in the public domain how many of you are prepared to send money or sponsor a child?
Stop all this hypocracy , love her or hate her, get off your butts and HELP!!
You may get a lot more back than you think!Like letters of a childs progress at school even university!WE do not have to be millionaires to help... but it took one to get this response on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:04 PM

Many celebs get hounded by the paparazzi

It's what they do with it that shows them up for who they are.

Madonna gets courted by the media because she is adept at manipulating them and putting herself in the limelight. It is her talent.

She is no more a serious contributer to any debate than Jade Goody or Paris Hilton. She's just a bit fitter and was once a bit more fanciable.

We're supposed to see her as somehow controversial. exactly what has she actually done that has been of any actual impact? can anyone remember?

Playboy? Sex book? songs about herself? films about herself? even her love song about guy ritchie is all about herself -

(This guy was meant for "ME" - many miles have "I" travelled - it doesn't extoll one virtue of his.) - ( oh no - sorry - it was a clever play on words -> this "guy" - wow!)

But nothing genuinely controversial.

And whilst on the subject of mass generalization and misinformation, the kind of "activists" of which I speak, and to which you refer, are not, as you appear to have assumed, busy villifying madonna, they couldn't give a s**t about her, being too busy trying to draw attention to the roots of the problem and actually tackle it in a way that is in line with actual understanding of it, as opposed to grandiose gestures of goodwill.

Do you see Madonna giving up her job as an entertainer to focus on her (apparent) new found responsibilities? do you see her message having any depth in terms of the actual issues?

Do you hear her songs saying anything else other than "Me Me Me" or does she still peddle the same lie in her lyrics that it's each man for himself in a material world, thus encouraging the rest of us to carry on behaving that way, with the result that our society and culture carries on sucking at the livelihoods of people in poor countries like Malawi, whilst they watch her video's in awe of the lifestyle that they can never have (because the planet simply cannot sustain it for everyone) and develop unrealistic aspirations of their own, or turn to violence to get some of what they've been miissing.

The difference between those such as Joanna lumley etc and those such as madonna etc is that the first lot try to assist people who know what they're doing, while the second lot think they're the messiah. In madonna's case, she thinks she's Evita Peron.

Finally, the paparazzi don't write articles, they take photographs.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: billybob
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:22 PM

Sorry but my point is that this thread should be about children in Malawi not Madonna,however without Madonna this thread would not be here! Sponsor a child , then tell us what you think?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:30 PM

You're right billybob.

More power to you for taking the initiative to raise the issue.

click here to see what the "activists" are up to

and sponsor a child

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:35 PM

sorry, I should really have sent you here

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:52 AM

I could have sworn I already posted this, but do not see it.

I am not familiar with this op/ed writer, but I thought she raised some good points and found it an interesting read:

Click Here.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:39 AM

I could have sworn I already posted this, but do not see it.

You get used to it........

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:16 AM

Madonna is an American citizen, and has every right to adopt the child according to US and Malawi laws. So this harping by the British press about the Ritchie adoption not following THEIR rules, is just bizarre beyond belief.

Do I believe there has been some speeding up of the process on the Malawi side? Absolutely. But not because it is Madonna. The process of third world babies being adopted by wealthy Westerners is what is at play here, not celebrity.

It's all about the money, and ability of the wealthy elite to buy poor peoples' babies, body parts, etc. So the rants about Madonna are just that. Rants against Madonna by a bunch of people who didn't give a shit about this issue before Madonna did what thousands of wealthy people do internationally every single year: buy poor people's babies.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:26 AM

"I could have sworn I already posted this, but do not see it.

You get used to it........ "

Shambles,

This is the least important aspect of Kat's post. To focus on it to the possible detriment of the thread (by redirecting the focus of the reader from the issues being discussed to the issue you have chosen to raise) is deeply offensive in light of the subject matter of the thread.

What do you have to say in response to THE LINK that Kat gave us?

Kat

I think it is absolutely superb and I would like to thank you for bringing it to our attention.

It clearly highlights how the question of altruism towards the needy should not be confused with the question of uprooting a child for the sake of ones selfish desire to have a little black baby for the collection.

A right doesn't excuse a wrong. Well done for giving money to an orphanage, but that does not give her the right to uproot a child.

I find the whole thing revolting.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:35 AM

Ok GUEST,

"The process of third world babies being adopted by wealthy Westerners is what is at play here"

"It's all about the money, and ability of the wealthy elite to buy poor peoples' babies, body parts, etc."

Are you saying you think this is a bad thing?

So why do you think we sjhould leave Madonna alone?

Because she's a celeb - that you like?

Guess what - Madonna is a wealthy westerner.

_______________________

Did you actually read Kats article? No I didn't think so.

Ok so you did but you don't understand what it said.

It spoke about WHY the brits have the rules they have.

It spoke about attachment issues, which again, you clearly don't understand.

It spoke about upheaval and referred to the long term effects of these things on a child.

Have you ever heard of personality disorders?

Please engage your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:30 AM

This is the least important aspect of Kat's post. To focus on it to the possible detriment of the thread (by redirecting the focus of the reader from the issues being discussed to the issue you have chosen to raise) is deeply offensive in light of the subject matter of the thread.

You may find this to be the least important part of the post I responded to - you have posted to provide your reasons for why you judge this to be so. I don't find this deeply offensive, as this is your view and you are welcome to express it in any thread you wish to (unlike me). You are also welcome to do this as a non - member of our forum (perhaps not for very much longer). Although what the point of posting such a judgement on a post responding to a comment - and not the original comment itself - escapes me. But it does follow a pattern.

I think it deeply offensive to our forum that some anonymous fellow poster (possibly kat herself) is permitted to now judge and silently delete, move, re-title my posts and those of others and provide no evidence or explanation for this imposed action - in the form of an editing comment.

Unlike us - at least kat knows for sure that the non-appearance of her post - is not due to it being silently deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:55 AM

My friends, a white couple, adopted a child in much the same way, from Viet Nam. No one was squawking about their choice. But they're not celb's. Once they went over seas it was done with within a week's time. Besides the news media couldn't have stired the tea pot into a tempest, no one would've given it a second thought.
What happens to a kid who doesn't get adopted in the UK?
OK, what happens to a kid that doesn't get adopted in the Sub-Saharaian region of Africa? In some African nations AID's is killing over 1000 people per day, that's not happening in the UK. The majority of the dying are women & girls. 20 million people have died from AIDS/HIV in Africa & 40 million are living with this today. The children of Africa need any kind of international aid they can get & adoption is one avenue. The majority of care givers their are grandmothers, their burden is self inflicted & it is killing them too but they are the hero's, if indeed there are any, just like adopting parents. If someone wants to adopt a child from there who's to say no. Any one who wants to cast the first stone at these parents, no matter who they are as along as they are willing & capable, should be held to public ridicule, including Yvonne Roberts who wrote that very bias editorial. Parentless kids don't need a woman like her, their lives are already tough enough.
Fair play to Guy & Madonna for their adoption, I don't hear of anyone whose in their shoes saying anything negitive. I know here in the US you can forget about trying to adopt a healthy white baby, it doesn't happen unless you've got eons of free time to wait. It still takes a village to raise a child & if the village cares what color the baby or where it comes from is then those living in it should not be raising children. I haven't seen much attention given to this AIDS crisis here on this forum & that is basically what this is all about. It's not about 2 high profile people that can't escape the trash writers that are are plague to their profession.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:22 PM

Yer dead on there, Barry.

Anyone, such as Mr. Lox, who has the energy to hyperventilate over celebrities the way he is here, isn't really interested in the welfare of an entire generation of African children being devastated by the AIDs crisis. They are interested in icon smashing, which is what Mr. Lox and the clueless twit of an editiorialist linked to above, are engaging in. The usual British begrudgery.

The Ritchies are stepping up to the plate and trying to help. They may have stumbled here, but they are making an effort, which is better than what Britney Spears and Kevin Federline are doing, yes?

Again, the idea that the adoption should be done according to British rules is just plain silly. The idea that the papparazzi would leave Madonna alone in Africa, and that when they didn't it was Madonna's fault, is beyond rational.

Mr. Lox, you are full of hot air and hate. Why should I listen to anything you say?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:04 PM

once again, the assumptions being made by GUEST are as far from the truth as they could possibly be.

I have agreed with the well though out approach of a Brit. That does not make me a brit, so your thinly veiled attempt to rouse my jingoistic fervour is unfortunately way wide of the mark.

You missed.

Kat (the american who posted the link to the article in question) is not a brit either, so to try and polarise this debate into one between Limeys and Yanks is not only cynical but pointless.

"Again, the idea that the adoption should be done according to British rules is just plain silly."

Again, you demonstrate a weak and shallow understanding of what the article said.

Read up on Attachment and abandonment issues and personality disorders, read about the consequences of upheaval on a child and reread the article.

I have enough relevant experience in this area to justify my passion. My passion is based in love, care and the engagement of my brain in best trying to understand how those things are most effectively nurtured.

There are 2 seperate issues here.

1. the problems of starvation and AIDS in Malawi

2. The issue of responsibility towards a child who is being adopted and moved far from his real family with whom he has a relationship.

The two issues are mutually EXclusive.

Like I've said before, well done for showing concern for an issue, but that does not give you the right to take risks with a childs psychological well being because you've taken a shine to him. We're not talking about a puppy.

The father is very poor, and wants the best for his son, so of course he will say "go on and take him." Any loving father would make that sacrifice.

Thing is, it's not about what the dad is prepared to sacrifice, it's about what the child needs. I am sure that if the father was aware of abandonment and attachment issues and what they mean to people who have them, he might find the whole process even harder than he must already be finding it.

To understand this you need to learn about what abandonment and attachment issues are.
_______________

Barry Finn

What did you know of your friends childs history? were the parents still alive? if they were, did they have contact with their chiild?

I'll bet the child had no contact with it's biological parents at all and so it would have been a case of "the sooner the better" to get the child adopted, so as to foster some kind of security and stability in the childs life.

The fact that your friends were well to do by comparison with most vietnamese would have been a bonus.

I may be wrong so feel free to correct me, but if I'm not then your friends were in a very different situation to Madonna.

In Madonna's case, the child has a relationship with his father. This is to be disrupted with no apparent indication of an attempt to ensure it be maintained.

Again, to understand why this isof such importance, you need to read about attachment and abandonment issues. They ae not trivial things and are to be taken extremely seriously.
______________________

So, in short, Malawi <-> Baby , seperate issues.

On issue of baby,

It's not about Madonna, or the Dad, but about the child and his emotional and mental health.

That constitutes neither hate, icon bashing nor hot air.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:52 AM

Lox you assume way to much & are so off base as to my friends that you're in a different ballpark altogether. It very late though, so please excuse me for tonight, I'll be back on this tomorrow.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 08:02 AM

Barry, in the interests of communication and clarity, please reread my specific response to you, and note the tone of it. There is no cause for confrontation (except in a purely academic sense) or for you to rush to the defence of your friends.

you said,

"Lox you assume way to much & are so off base as to my friends that you're in a different ballpark altogether"

I had said

"I may be wrong so feel free to correct me"

I made no assumption, I asked a question, then I "bet" on the probable answer.

So the key point of my response to your post isn't whether me and your friends are in the same ballpark, but whether Madonna and your friends actually have much in common beyond having adopted a foreign child.

I'm not, despite all appearances, so shallow as to get hung up on the question of whether adoption of foreign children is good or bad, but rather what circumstances are appropriate for a child to be moved from one guardian to another.

If someoneone wishes to offer help, one must first be sure what type of help is needed, lest one makes things worse. What does Madonna's new son need? First and foremost, a roof over his head, food on the table and the love of his family.

A little financial support for his father would have been more appropriate, though even that is a shallow "easy" solution to a tricky and complex problem.

Taking him to the UK (where, funnily enough, it is UK adoption laws which apply) to live in the public eye away from his family, raises a whole range of long term potential consequences.

These are not consequences that can be dealt with by a little counselling. They run deep and affect sufferers ability to interact within society properly. The associated disorders last for life and can be severely detrimantal to it's quality.

My guess was that your friends situation was different to Madonna's.

Either I'm right or wrong. Either their child had a relationship with it's biological family when it was adopted or it didn't.

I am genuinely curious to know the answer, and I think it would add value to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:05 PM

Madonna is married to a British Citizen and lives in Britain, surely any adoption should adhere to local law, i.e., British adoption laws. If she wants to adopt this child under the laws of another country, then she should go and live there until it's all settled.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 05:05 PM

Hi Liz
A love it or leave it policy helps no one. If she's adopting in a foriegn nation then by the law of that nation it's their child & Britain has no say in the matter weither they choose to live there our just pass through. Britain only has a say within it's own jurisdiction, or at least I would believe it to be so. Just like if you had an adopted child & chose to move here, you would not be told that because our laws differ that you can't say your adopted kid is yours & has to 1st meet our rules.

Hi Lox
I see no reason to look at your tone or question it, I have no doubt that we only have a diffenece in opinions & that's all.
There is no history on the child, she was put on the doorstep of an adoption agency. I believe it was quick because of overcrowding as it is through out Africa & other 3rd world nations. My friends are not well to do by anyone's standards unless you're comparing them to 3rd world living conditions. I don't know how they'd compare to Madonna in the home but I'm sure that Madonna & Guy are capable of offering a loving home & environment as my friends are & that's what matters. The child that Madonna & Guy adopted had a parent but for some reason the parent choose to give it up & place it in an orphanage & giving the father a little finincial assistence would not be appropriate, after all they're there to adopt not give out aid. That's what orphanages do, they try to place parentless(& it seems that this kid is parentless) kids in a home & with parents that will offer a healthy, stable, loving & caring home. The father's relationship is not the priority here neither is the child's past environment. As to attachment and abandonment issues hopefully as in all cases of adoption, that issue will hopefully come to pass. When the father placed the child with the agency that was his choice & at that point the child was cut loose, it was displaced & abandoned. Children with good homes & good parents can have these issues too but if the parents & child can bond those issues can be overcome. I am quite familiar with this, for the past 25 yrs that's what my wife has been involved with, the care & education of poor & troubled children has been her life.

It was also mentioned above about the child's race as being a concern. I will not even discuss that topic.
   
As to the Aids & Malawi. It's not Malawi it's a national, continental & international problem with AIDS/HIV. These diseases are destroying the African continent. One of the by-products of this is the massive amounts of orphan children left to be cared for by grandmothers, the government agencies, health organizations & other charities. They are all overwhelmed & can't keep up, neither can many of the parents. If there's complaining to do it should be directed towards other nations & governments to kick in their fair share & to do more to aid these stricken nations & to adopt some friendlier policies that would add to their relief. Directing complaints at high profile figures that'll sell the news but it's scapegoating & does nothing to help out the situation. The news should be ashamed for covering this story instead of covering the tragedy of it all instead. They should be reporting about other high profile folks that are doing something & not folks that are rying to adopt. For some reason the news media lately has got it in their collective minds that the public really gives a hoot as to who's having who's baby. They should be reporting on Bill Clinton's lifetime commitment & Bono's commitment to helping out with this tragedy. I hear every day about the tragedy of the war but nothing about AIDS/HIV which is killing more per week on the African continent than the war has sense it's start.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 05:30 PM

Interesteing thing now is that the boy's father has decided to speak out and say he never realised madonna was going to become the child's 'mother'.

According to him he just thought she would bring the child up the same as he would have been brought up in the orphanage and then return home to his family once he was an adult.

Now either he genuinely didn't realise the orphanage was going to try and rehome the child or he has been advised to rethink his position for financial reasons.

Is it likely a boy brought up in the public school system will want to go and live in a third world country as a third world family member when he has graduated from university?

I think not, but he would maybe be in a position to help them enormously. An interesting twist.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 05:55 PM

Britain only has a say within it's own jurisdiction, or at least I would believe it to be so. Just like if you had an adopted child & chose to move here, you would not be told that because our laws differ that you can't say your adopted kid is yours & has to 1st meet our rules.


BUT SHE IS LIVING IN BRITAIN AT THIS VERY MOMENT!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 07:13 PM

Barry,

I'm glad there's no ill feeling there, I was afraid I'd touched a nerve and felt you had something important to offer.

You said:

"My friends are not well to do by anyone's standards unless you're comparing them to 3rd world living conditions."

I had said:

"The fact that your friends were well to do by comparison with most vietnamese would have been a bonus"

Apart from that, you have answered my initial question more or less as I expected:

"There is no history on the child, she was put on the doorstep of an adoption agency"

That tells me that, for whatever reason, she had already had her relationship with her biological family severed.

If the guardian article that Kat linked us to is correct, then the young lad Madonna adopted did have a relationship with his father, who cycled 25 miles to spend time with him every weekend, being unable to give more due to his lack of income.

Presumably with a bit of support, the contact between them could have been increased if not made permanent.

Let us try to put his shoes on our feet for a minute (assuming he has any).

Single parents in the UK can leave their kids at a nursery or a childminder while they work, and it will be paid for by public funding.

On the way home from work they pick their child up, tell them they love them, give them a kiss and cuddle and take them home (!) where they feed them and put them to bed.

In countries like Malawi there are neither Nurseries nor is there such public funding.

Where does a single dad put his beby son while he works?

This guy has made hard choice after hard choice for his son.

And yet he has never given up maintaining contact with his son.

Imagine that life for a second, and then imagine that a very rich woman comes along and offers your child financial security and all that he could ever want materially.

But imagine that the price is that your child has to go away. Your precious weekends aren't going to happen any more.

Imagine the confusion and bewilderment for the child. He doesn't have much, but his dad, with whom he has a deep magical bond that no one alive can match, and whom no one alive can come close to in terms of love and reassurance given.

Suddenly that contact stops, and his world turns upside down.

The most valuable thing a child can have is the love and reassurance of its parents.

If that has gone, then the best alternative must of course be gratefully and speedily offered as appears to have been the case with your friends and more power to them for it.

But if there is something there worth saving, then it should be saved. It should not be severed unnecessarily. The damage is too great.

I am a single dad who lives in a country where there are nurseries, where there is public funding, and where if, as a single parent, I can't get work, the state will support me for as long as necessary to ensure my child can have a basic secure stable home.

My daughter is asleep upstairs as I write this. I've just been up to check on her because she yelled out in her sleep. She was fine.

Being able to do that is something that I am grateful for beyond words.

I wouldn't have the arrogance to claim that I have the remotest idea how hard life is for The childs father.

As tough as he must be to carry on, he must also grieve in his heart every time he leaves to cycle the 25 miles home again.

Sorry, but what a fucking hero.

He and his son deserve help. Of course they do. As long as the person helping actually is helping. The way to be sure is to ask "how can I help". Not to decide what type of help they think is right and just dive in with both wallets blazing.

Money can't buy you love or happiness, we all know that.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 07:49 PM

PS

On the subject of international support for the state of Malawi in it's monumental task of trying to deal with the consequences of HIV/AIDS etc, I am with you all the way.

The newspapers should be covering these issues properly too. I agree on that point as well.

Madonna has kept the politics out of the story by keeping herself out of the politics. She titillates her audience with her daring from time to time, with a raise of an eyebrow and yet another inoccuous cliche about starving babies and aids, but never engages the issues in any real depth and certainly never says anything of any real controversy.

As a result the real arguments remain the preserve of nerds and smug politicians (politicians hate it when the issues are really discussed in any depth, that's why they eulogise in the same glib language as Madonna).

The tabloid press are suckers for a publicity stunt. They survive symbiotically with celebs who perform them in full knowledge of what they are doing and why. They won't always report it how it was intended to come across however, and I think they decided to knock Madonna for her actions because they decided that this stunt was too tasteless to be endorsed.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 08:16 PM

She has supported AIDS charities in the UK and Africa for at least the last ten years. And rather than giving them lip service she has contributed estimated millions.

She is setting up an orphanage in Malawi which will help feed, clothe and home up to 4000 orphans, most orphaned due to AIDS/HIV.

I have no doubt of her good intent and significant contribution to putting her money where it counts. If she were to stand at a conference and talk about the issues in depth she would be criticised for the way she spoke.

My only doubt in this whole situation is why she chose to adopt a baby with a living parent. But it says to me that she has all intention of maintaining links with his home country.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 08:54 PM

GUEST

You're right, I'm being little hard on Madonna and she should be congratulated for the things you have listed above.

I do think though, that the kind of criticism you're talking about would be a nobler gauntlet for her to run, and risking her reputation by engaging more meaningfully and less glamorously in the debate would be to her credit.

The fact that she doesn't shows how much importance she places on her public image, which supports my view that a large part of her motivation has been in enhancing it.

Ironically, I think that whatever the papers said, people would respect her more and the depth of public feeling for her would be more enduring.

Madonna has millions, maybe Billions of fans worldwide. That's a lot of loyal receptive minds all open to her words and her wisdom. Imagine if she stopped talking to them about herself and kabbalah and started engaging them in things that matter.

All those shallow party heads turning round and having intelligent conversations in large numbers about things that need large numbers of people to talk about them if they are going to be changed.

The problem with pop stars is their egos. If instead of big dramatic once in a lifetime events like live 8, there was consistent highlighting of issues and HOW they might be dealt with and WHAT might be done by ordinary flks like you and me, people might once again feel enfranchised, involved, less marginalized, less apathetic and more inclined to vote and make their vote matter and to force their leaders to listen in other ways.

I hope you're right about the link being maintained - but every weekend? It'll be tough - and how long will it be maintained before it dwindles away?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:20 AM

Hi Lox
If the father was under a different understanding, I'd say all bets are off. Of course.

Hi Liz
If she didn't apodt the child on UK soil the UK has no say about legal transactions in elsewhere. If the UK recognizes Malawi, how could they leagely do otherwise. Please explain if we're both on track here.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:35 AM

Madonna , fít fíjú way to go .......... good looking woman
doing a great thing give a child a change to live.


All the best Skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:39 AM

Apparently there was another case of a woman called Madonna who brought up a baby that wasn't technically hers, but that was two milennia ago or so .........

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 07:19 AM

Barry - I was given to understand from various articles quoted above, that current Malawi law would not allow the child to be adopted outside the country, that prospective parents should live in Malawi for 18 months whilst the process is ongoing and that Madonna lives in Britain with a husband who is apparently not exactly 100% behind this adoption, just like the child's father seems to be now.

If another British citizen had wanted to adopt a child from Malawi, they would have had to abide by the local laws. Madonna has taken this boy home after something like 2 weeks.

If she really is the caring, loving parent she's made out to be, then surely she could support the child and his father whilst she's going through the correct legal process to adopt.


Skipjack - I think you'll find that THAT Madonna was actually the birth mother, and she had a fine support network!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Bagpuss
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 07:53 AM

I believe that in the uk, you have to be an approved adoptive parent even if the adoption was done abroad. I am not sure whether madonna has gone through this.

Also, i read over the weekend that the father, after initially being all for the adoption, has said that he didn't realise that it meant him giving up all parental rights, and basically not being the childs father any more. If he had known he said, he wouldn't have approved it.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 07:59 AM

lol

And the father, being omnipresent was always able to stick around despite his busy schedule everywhere else simultaneously, though it seems there may have been some concerns regarding abandonment when his son was on the cross.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:17 AM

presumably madonna's lawyers got in touch with the fathers lawyers so they could be satisfied that the document was fair and in line with his understanding.

Whats that?

he doesn't have a lawyer?

He's possibly illiterate (76% literacy in Malawian men) though more likely he is functionally illiterate?

And I challenge any non legally trained Brit or American with above average literacy to make head or tail of their tenancy agreement let alone adoption papers - and are they in english? and who acted as interpreter between him and Madonna? was there an interpreter at all?

"He knew what he was getting himself into" - oh really? (that comment is not attributed to anyone in particular but I believe represents a view that I have seen expressed on this thread and elsewhere. A view which I find is not only deeply unfair but also grossly irresponsible.)

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:44 AM

The father of the Malawi boy visited him every week in the orphage. Now, he has this to say:

Father of Madonna boy not aware of adoption

The father of the Malawian boy that singer Madonna took to the UK under a temporary custody order has said that he never intended for his son to be adopted, only raised on his behalf.

Yohane Banda told news agency Reuters that Madonna had asked to raise the 13-month-old boy on behalf of him.

"Had they told us that Madonna wanted to adopt my son and make him her own son, we would not have agreed to that," Banda said.

"It would have been better for him to continue staying at the orphanage because I see no reason why my child should be given away forever when I can feed him," he said.

"I cannot read and write so I relied on what the (government) officials told me that the papers said Madonna would look after the child the way the orphanage planned to educate him and then he comes back to me."

When asked if he had signed any agreements with the singer, Banda said: "I am still waiting to get my copies."

Explaining his decision to send baby David to an orphanage after his mother's death, he said: "We sent this child to an orphanage because at one month we could not look after him, we did not have a health centre nearby and the orphanage was the ideal place for him."

Banda said that he would wait until the papers, which are currently with government officials, were sent to him before deciding what action to take, after consulting family members.

Shambles, I do NOT argue as an anonymous guest. If you ever truly read my postings about anon. guests, you'd know that. But, that wouldn't serve your egenda, would it?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:39 PM

Shambles, I do NOT argue as an anonymous guest. If you ever truly read my postings about anon. guests, you'd know that. But, that wouldn't serve your egenda, would it?

I made no such suggestion of course.

You will accept that although you are prepared to be known to operate as a 'moderator' and feel yourself now qualified to impose your judgement on your fellow posters - there are others who choose to do this anonymously - and are permitted to do this anonymously?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 03:24 PM

Not going there, Shambles. You have hijacked enough threads with your persecution complex.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:46 PM

You have hijacked enough threads with your persecution complex.

I don't have a persecution complex - I am being persecuted.

Not too sure what hijacking a thread is (it does not appear for posters to be encouraged to ignore a threads subject with concerted efforts to place recipes, jokes and personal judgements in it) but is it really possible to hijack one's own thread?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:48 AM

Liz if that is the case I have nothing to stand on so I bow my knee to you.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:35 AM

Madona may have to bring the kid back.
Rush Limbaugh said she could still probably adopt Barok Obama if nothing else works out.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 10:07 AM

Barry,

I am sure Liz would agree that no knee bowing is necessary. Had you not raised the issues you had in the way you did, that area of discourse might not have been explored in the way it was.

Rigorous scrutiny is the key to effective debate and I for one applaud you for your honesty, clarity of thought and your ethics, which I believe remain unbowed.

Next time it will be the other way around, and we will both, again, have a little extra wisdom under our belts, and a litle extra value to our lives.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:06 PM

It is a tragedy unfolding. One would hope that in these adoptions people would make so sure there were no close relatives who would later claim the baby..this has happened before of course...mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Amergin
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:13 PM

Once the fad is over, Mdonna would be happy to return the kid to him...also that would serve her need to be in the public eye.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 04:25 PM

"I think it deeply offensive to our forum that some anonymous fellow poster (possibly kat herself) is permitted to now judge and silently delete, move, re-title my posts and those of others and provide no evidence or explanation for this imposed action - in the form of an editing comment." Cut from Shambles post.


Looks to me like you DID make that suggestion, Sham.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:43 PM

I disagree Lox... I'm all for a gentleman bending the knee now and then.... but in this case, no problem.

LTS










Actually... it's men who AREN'T gentlemen you have to watch out for when they bend the knee.....

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 11:59 PM

Thank you both.

I do here that Madonna will be on Oprah tomorrow the 25th but I don't remember the time. She will be interviewed by the bog O herself & she's doing this to explain her story.
At least we'll have one side of this without the media twist in it, maybe.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:55 AM

Madonna on Oprah wiht no media twist????///




























NNNAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 09:52 AM

We don't get Oprah here in the uk - though I'm sure they'll feature some selected footage on the news.

Maybe it'll be on youtube.

Either way, I'll be curious to know what she has to say exactly.

I stand to be corrected, but I'll bet the focus of what Madonna has to say is about herself.

" ... I've really had an awakening ... you really learn about yourself ... etc ..."

And I doubt Oprah will ask anything too penetrating. It's not her job. She does hype for a living. She will pander to madonna's ego.

God I'm jealous - what a sad man I've become - I'm salivating at the thought.

I won't be able to participate in the debate - aaarrgh!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 10:21 AM

As a contrast a story was published in one of the UK sunday papers, I think the Mail, of a Malawi couple resident in Britain who are trying to adopt their neice, a malawi orphan both of whose parents died of Aids. They are faced with a wait of two years while the child is "cared" for by a grandmother who can do little else but feed the child as she has to spend most of her day working. The child is left sitting alone all day in her grandmother's yard.
Needless to say the couple, although by the account are hard working, do not have three million to give to the Malawi government.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 02:22 PM

I think rather than hurting this couple, Madonna's adoption will help them by pointing things like this out. Once the sun shines on problems, solutions can come forth. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 02:37 PM

But will it help?

Call me an old sceptic if you like... (it's true after all)

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:06 PM

Well we were unaware of the problem before so of course the madonna case has helped. It has brought the problem to the public's attention.

Will it change anything remains to be seen, but there is zero chance of that happening without publicity.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:47 PM

I'm sorry if this comes out snobbish, but anyone who was unaware that Africa suffers from severe poverty and an AIDS crisis before Madonna tried to adopt this little boy has been living in a very deep hole for the last 20 years.

I would have a lot more respect for her if she just donated money to the country/village/family instead of taking this little boy away from his father. It may not be true, but it appears to the world like she's just jumping on the bandwagon of celebrity adoptions that are currently fashionable.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 04:13 PM

becca please see the post of 25/10/06 at 10.21am which will let you know the problem we were discussing. I don't think anyone has intimated madonna has brought the aids problem to the publics attention.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

Guest 4:13, I had no intention of suggesting that Madonna shed light on the Aids crisis of Africa by adopting this boy. But it was mentioned above that she has made the world aware of the problems in Africa (poverty AND Aids) and I think that's giving her a bit more credit than she is due.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 05:55 PM

I can not see a post that states she 'made the world aware of the aids/poverty in Africa.' I would agree with you if there was one that it is a gross generalisation.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 06:23 PM

Becca
While the world may be aware of the poverty & the AIDS/HIV problem in Africa I don't think that the average American does know how bad the situation really is & I agree that Madonna's situation doesn't shed any more light on it either, regretfully. If you questioned the man, women or child on the street I think that they'd be shocked to find out that in Africa alone 20 million have died from AIDS/HIV & even more so that 40 million are now living with it. Further more I don't think they'd care all that much either. The same with the policies of their own government. If it does not apply to them directly & affect them in their day to day living then it's something that they'd simply rather not know about or at least not know the details of. Being an American I say this with a sore heart because but that is how I see it.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 06:42 PM

I didn't get to hear Madonna on Oprah but here's what went down. see: http://www2.oprah.com/index.jhtml

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 06:42 PM

GUEST 5:55PM:

"Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 03:06 PM

Well we were unaware of the problem before so of course the madonna case has helped. It has brought the problem to the public's attention.

Will it change anything remains to be seen, but there is zero chance of that happening without publicity."

Barry,
I guess maybe it's either my generation or my area (I believe it's more likely my generation) but the average American in my age bracket knows a lot more than you're given them credit for of the going's on in Africa. But we're also one of the first generations to have Aids be so prominent in our lives. I remember at 10 or 12 years old (early '80s) hearing about "safe sex" and the "Aids epidemic". Maybe that's the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:14 PM

Yes becca I thought that was the post you were referring to, as I said before please read the post it was in response to.

We were specifically discussing the plight of a UK couple who are experiencing problems re adoption. Which we are now aware of because of the madonna situation.

I would have been as surprised as you had someone attributed world enlightenment to madonna.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Becca72
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:21 PM

My apologies, GUEST. It was a rather ambiguous remark and I took it to mean they thought she enlightened the world on the plight of Africa as a whole.

I have never cared for Madonna as an artist but I will give her credit for her charity work. She does worlds more than others. I still believe that she could have found a better way to help other than taking a child away from his father.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:26 PM

No problem. I also wonder at the wisdom of her adopting a child who has a living parent. Time will tell.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:19 PM

If indeed the mother died of AIDS, perhaps the father has it also..it would not be that unlikely, in which case it might be best all around this way. It is sad to part a child from either parent. Sometimes the world can be so awful that it is better than the alternatives. Who was it?//Stalin, who said 1 child dying is a tragedy; 20 million is a statistic. She has brought one child into the world's eyes, like Angelina Jolie and others have done, and there will be a ripple effect. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Barry Finn
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 02:24 AM

Hi Becca
It may be as you said "I guess maybe it's either my generation or my area", it could be the same with me, I am a bit older & I live in an area where (southern New Hampshire) where we give cows credit for the area education systems. Maybe in part too that I'm always kept up by family discussions. My sister-in-law is Paula Donovan (you can google her) so the family hear's 1st hand of the worst of what happens over there in Africa & far more than any news media will try to sell, because the situation is so horrid so it could also be a case of what's relative too. Hopefully we'll be seeing positive changes soon in the UN on who gets to lead & create new AIDS/HIV policly & who's gonna be handling it.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: The Shambles
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 05:16 AM

I also wonder at the wisdom of her adopting a child who has a living parent. Time will tell.

This is only speculation but perhaps it was not wisdom but just seeing a little boy and being told the child did have a living parent who for all intents and purposes he may as well not have had?

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 08:31 AM

Oprrahs question,

Were you hurt?

Not hurt, more disappointed. (and that's meant to be reassuring?)

Straight away the focus is on MADONNA

And then Madonna goes on to imply that if you disagree with her adopting the kid then it follows that you don't care about dying african children with aids.

It's all the media's fault, thoughh apparently she iis aware that they have been known to concentrate on gossip outrage and hype.

Duh! I wouldn't have inagined she was aware of that - would you?

Come on - the mother teresa act doesn't wash. Lie's are never isolated, they travel in mutually supportive groups.

I see a smokescreen and the disappointment of a stunt gone wrong.

She implies that she never gave the papers a thought - uh huh - and the pope is a member of Jihad and bears use portaloos!

Check here , thoughh therre isn't really enough info to make thhis debate any more interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 08:34 AM

actually,

it might be more worthwhile clicking here

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 04:15 PM

Sometimes I'm glad my sound card is screwed....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 26 Oct 06 - 11:20 PM

Oh for heavens sake it is not a stunt. There are easier ways to pull off a stunt than having an ill baby in your already hectic life, from a totally different culture etc. This will do a tremendous amount for getting other children adopted, which in their dire circumstances is better than them picking food out of garbage heaps, as they do in other countries...4,000 children will have a new orphanage. Lots of people will contribute however they can, whether through adoption, money, whatever. She means well, has done this clumsily, but a life has been saved and many more will be as result of her actions, done out of whatever motivations she has. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:36 AM

how can he be an orphan if he has a father

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:55 AM

You'd think that adoption was the best if not the only way to help.

It seems that madonna and her apologists are advocating without any sense of Irony that we should all be going and adopting kids from third world countries to do our bit to help.

YES - I think that approach SHOULD be discouraged. Madonna is WRONG to suggest that it is something to be encouraged.

It is a grossly irresponsible attitude to have.

Believe it or not there ARE OTHER WAYS of helping.

LOTS of other ways.

They involve trying to help the many rather than the few. They involve dealing with the issues surrounding the children properly.

She has advisors. She is surrounded by dignitaries who want their photo's taken with her who all possess enough information about how she can ACTUALLY BE OF REAL HELP to the children of Malawi and the country of malawi.

Again - to simplify

Adoption <-> poverty in malawi = SEPERATE ISSUES

The adoption thing is reprehensible. I'm sorry, but she has no excuse. Little David banda is the equivalent for madonna of one of those little reward stickers you get when you put money in a collecting jar on the high street.

"I'm a friend of malawi"

Is the kid going to wear a sweatshirt with the message "madonna saved me" on it? he might as well because he's going to known for it regardless of what the media say.

She has done it for herself. She wants the child and she gets what she wants.

Risks? - oh don't worry, she'll cross that bridge when she comes to it. She'll just give him a red bracelet and tell him to look within and how much it helped her.

She'll give him the same self centred crap that she gives the media and he'll never feel listened to.

Sorry, but she makes me puke.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Big Phil
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:38 PM

Don't care if Madonna and husband adopts one or one hundred kids, it is up to them and is the business of no one else......

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 12:16 AM

But it is the business of others if she is seen to be flouting rules that other lesser (well off) mortals have to abide by... see the original posting where it gives details of the Malawi adoption process.

She has not been a resident in the country for 18 days, let alone months. She has shown she will readily take the child out of the country. Malawi law forbids overseas adoptions, it insists on 18 months of residency, it insists on suitability checks. The child has a living parent who doesn't appear to have been correctly informed.

Regardless of her motives and other charitable acts, she is breaking the laws of the land and passing the wrong messages to couples who want to adopt but must go through the correct procedures.

This whole issue gives the impression that anyone with a big handfull of dollars can just come and take a child irrespective of due legal process. How many 'Celebs' will now want an African child (or in the words of Waynetta Slob - "I wanna a brahn baybee, every uvva muvva on the estate's go' wun") because Madonna has one?

I agree that every child has the right to a loving home, and that not every loving home is with its birth parents, but being rich in material goods does not always make one rich in spirit, heart or mind.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Lox
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 09:47 AM

Big Phil.

That is such an ignorant and offensive comment to make.

You have obviously made no attempt to understand what this thread is about.

On one hand you're saying you don't care whether the ritchies adopt or not, then in your next breath you're expressing your point of view on the subject.

You're happy to tell people that they're wrong, yet you aren't interested in knowing what they are actually talking about.

Come on mate, you can't have it both ways.

Either engage the subject or leave it alone.

While we are on the subject of whose business it is, it clearly isn't just that of the Ritchies.

It is, for example, the business of the childs father. (If you don't know what I'm talking about I suggest you read back)

It is also the business of anyone who believes that adoption of children should be done in a responsible way so as to ensure that their best interests are not overlooked. (again, you'll have to read back to know what I'm talking about)

In this case, there are many people who are of the view that this adoption should not be happening because it might be bad for the child being adopted. (just to make sure you don't repeat something someone said at the start that has already been discussed, I again suggest reading back)

When you see or hear about someone doing something bad, it is your business to show concern (if you want to), and if someone else disagrees with your reasons, it is your business to scrutinize the issues (if you want to) to see to what extent your concerns are justified.

That is how societies make sure that people don't get away with doing bad things. Without this kind of healthy debate we may as well go back to the jungle and beat each other with clubs.

It is important, that neither Madonna nor anyone else is allowed to get away with abusing their media status and financial clout, when it comes to taking risks with other peoples welfare. especially the welfare of children.

If you aren't interested then let those of us who are get on with it.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 09:08 AM

then it follows that you don't care about dying african children with aids

But they are already black, aren't they.

Wolfgang (on a trip of deliberate misunderstanding)

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 10:35 AM

Not to be outdone, Oprah is planning the most outrageous give away ever attempted on TV. Unlike the time she gave away new cars to everyone who had a number taped under the auditorium seats, this time everyone with an even number will get a brand new Malawan boy and the odd number tickets will get a new Malawan girl.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 03:40 PM

This thread has suddenly turned evil ...

lol

more more ...

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 31 Oct 06 - 04:45 PM

Wolfgang.

The first few times I read your post, I inferred several different types of possible irony.

It pains me to admit that I have only just really understood the joke.

And to think of all the subtlety I was crediting you with possessing.

If I groan any louder, the neighbours are going to either call a doctor or the police.

You have a stain on your conscience!

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:03 PM

Well,

She's on BBC newsnight tonight at 10.30pm.

What will she say? will she tell the truth?

It should hopefully be a slightly more revealing interview than Oprah's

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 01:10 PM

You know, every negative word someone says about this, and it seems that despite her numerous faults Madonna is a good mother, hurts the children she is trying to help. She could and has done work to set up an orphanage there to help many orphans. I wish she had chosen a baby without family...but there is no doubt in my mind that she loves this baby, wants to have him in her family, should have done things differently, but I for one do not doubt her motives at all. Of course we need strong rules everywhere to prevent slave traders, and child molesters and all sorts of unfit and abusive types to swoop into a country and take children away, but this is a person who is totally in the public eye, could have 6 live in social workers if necessary. I don't care if she cut to the front of the line...this will ultimately help to shorten the line for everyone and get some babies taken care of. mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 04:29 PM

But mg, those concerns that you have mentioned are so F****ng important that it has to be a monumental imperative that in this of all matters double standards are not allowed.

What's more, Madonna, no doubt being more aware of these issues after weeks of having been confronted with them, should be backing down and at least saying:

"I made a mistake, I would rather go through the correct procedures and teach by example how to take a responsible attitude than be seen to encourage the irresponsible approach, or indeed to encourage the malawian government or any other from welcoming people in to do as I have done."

She is setting a precedent which will have a massive global cultural impact. If she had any guts she would back down.

mg

Your post has eloquently convinced me of the opposite conclusion to the one you have reached, more than any other that I have read.
Read it back. They are your admissions.

"Of course we need strong rules everywhere to prevent slave traders, and child molesters and all sorts of unfit and abusive types to swoop into a country and take children away"

and then

"this is a person who is totally in the public eye"

That is absolutely why it should NOT be happening.

And mg, I know you. you commented with great relevance on a thread of mine that I posted recently and you had much to say that was very useful and helpful. You also displayed a perspective that tells me that deep down you agree with me.

OK, maybe I'm being a bit arrogant in that claim, but I'm prepared to risk it as a suggestion at least.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 05:25 PM

Well, of course I agree on the abusive parents being kept out. I think this is a case where her lack of abusiveness to children can be documented and if they can speed up the process and have one child serve as a model for other adoptions, and contributions so that families can raise them and regular charity etc.....then I am all for the speed up process. Pictures of a cute kid in Baby Gap and Geranimals will do more for Malawi orphans than six books of tragedy on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 07:12 PM

Well on the BBC interview she said she "formed a connection" with him whilst watching a video, before she met him!

She wanted to meet him after a few views so that she could form a more emotional bond.

Come on. These are the words of a fantasist.

How many deranged fans have "formed relationships" with her over the years. Even I as a teenager may have "formed" a few relationships with her - but never for more than about 3 minutes. ;-)

She claimed that she tried to offer the father the means by which he might support his own son, but that he refused, insisting (no doubt against her strongest protest) that she take him away.

mmm hmmm ... but he changed his mind later ... aaaaaahhhh ...

... I seeee ... ?!?         8-| (not impressed)

On the subject of media attention, it seems she brought her own film crew, so her "privacy" was fully intended to be very publicly shared right from the start.

Oh yes, and a quick reminder, adopting a child and the challenges of poverty and health in Malawi are two very distinct and seperate issues.

A child needed medical attention and food, so she adopted him.

At least that's one thing they'll have in common - a constant need for attention.

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 07:18 PM

Well, I formed a connection with him just by seeing a picture. I think adoptive parents do this all the time with children they just see in pictures or videos. The problem is that there are millions of children, probably similar to him, that nobody with sufficient means has formed a connection to...I am sure there are struggling people locally who would or have but they can't keep the diseases away...in one year of life he has survived (I read) both tuberculosis and malaria. How many more bullets should he dodge while they sort this out? mg

Subject: RE: BS: A little Malawi boy and Madonna
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 01 Nov 06 - 07:22 PM

Oh, one more thing,

Actually, probably one last thing,

I think you will find that this matter will slip away into the cesspit of media gone by now that she's done the rounds.

She'll feature in a few womens magazines talking about the miracle of david banda, but the issue of malawi will also fade away, having never really featured in the first place.

The relief workers and campaigners will get back into the swing of it, hoping that maybe they can capitalize on the wave of publicity that was created, but pretty soon life will be back to normal for them, and madonna will lick her wounds, put it behind her and correct the mistakes she made on that all important public persona "MADONNA - EARTH MOTHER"

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz