BS: Should they top Saddam?

Subject: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 06:48 PM

I think the aftermath of doing so would be more bloodshed and instant martyrdom.

Strange seeing some professional and educated Iraqis being interviewed and hoping that the death sentence is passed. Has barbarity become so common to them they feel the need to seek revenge in like.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 06:53 PM

They'll probably elect him US Repblican President.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 06:57 PM

I thought the Iraquis are comfortable with capital punishment? Much like the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 07:38 PM

Ummmm, given that fact that the current governemnt in Iraq is not a legit government, I would think that any verdict, innocent or guilty, against Saddam is bogus...

Saddam should have been sent out of Iraq to be tried, or not, at some future date when the US no longer calls the shots within the illegit governemnt in Iraq and there is something that closer resembles a real government...

Actually, if I had it my way, I'd just as soon have Saddam back in power...He was a pussy cat when treated right... All he ever wanted from the US was a few gifts and a pat on the back... We could have manipulated him into being a better dictator...

But no... Karl Rove had Bush attack Iraq so that Bush and his guys could continue to hold power here in the US so that their corporate bed-buds could continue to redistribute wealth away from the middle class toward Boss Hog...

Worked until it didn't...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 08:56 PM

I have always been implacably opposed to the death penalty. But Saddam, like the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials? Maybe a special case? Hitler and Mussolini in prisons serving life sentences would have presented difficult political problems. A very complex moral judgement.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 09:04 PM

When they found him hiding in his hole - perhaps the best thing would have been to just quietly filled it in and left him there?

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 09:07 PM

Hiders In Caves

These hiders from light
Talk boldly of fight
They tell an unconvincing story

These hiders in caves
Send young men to their graves
To die, they believe in glory


What is this cause?
These holy wars!
You may choose to pay the ultimate price
But do the misused?
Have the right to choose?
Those who will share their sacrifice?


These hiders in holes
These sellers of souls
These market dealers in doom

Hiders behind skirts
They nurture their hurts
With arms that reach out from the gloom


Why the cry?
An eye for an eye!
That retribution be both swift and ruthless?
Is it the master plan?
That each and every land
Be filled with the blinded and the toothless?


These hiders can lie
The dark blinding their eyes
Safe from those that would kill them

These hiders may hide
They're safe inside
Let them have their holes……and then fill them

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Nov 06 - 11:38 PM

Taking into account their past performances, surely only Bush could top Saddam?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 02:54 AM

No sense killin' the guy. It'll just empower him in the minds of a lotta people and make him a martyr. I ain't particularly in favor of capital punishment, cos you don't end evil by imitatin' it. You kill someone face-to-face on a battlefield where the odds are even, that's one thing, but killin' a prisoner who can't defend himself or fight back is just plain, outright murder, and it ain't justified. Never. And just cos he did it do someone else, that don't make it right for you to do it to him. Murder is murder. You can't get around that. If you don't like it, don't do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 03:26 AM

Bobert - 04 Nov 06 - 07:38 PM

"Ummmm, given that fact that the current governemnt in Iraq is not a legit government"

All should note that this is a Bobert Fact - i.e. totally incorrect.

Decision was made a long, long time ago that if deposed and captured the fate of Saddam Hussein would be decided under Iraqi Law, by Iraqi courts, and by the Iraqi people.

Although generally opposed to the death penalty, in the case of Saddam Hussein and his entourage they fully deserve it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 03:44 AM

The fact that Saddam certainly deserves to be topped does not give us any excuse to do so. The riff raff, which was killed at Nürnberg also richly deserved their fate, but history can see it for what it was - "victor's justice". I feel rather the same as Greg. I recall that when Ceacescu was murdered, I was not able to condone it outright, but I did not grieve for him for very long. Greg Stephens is right when he says that imprisonment presents large logistical problems. On the other hand, executions always undermine the credibility of the "justice" system - and that is the last thing which Iraq needs at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 03:59 AM

A few weeks of community service would sort him out. He just needs to live for a while amongst people who could lead by example. he can change my guitar strings for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 04:02 AM

Agree, Alan. Greg, no "special exceptions" - it's the thin end of the wedge, because how do you codify where you draw the line?

No - incarceration for life is the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 04:54 AM

That's it George. It is also what the revenge mob wants - a slow, lingering death.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 04:55 AM

Megalomaniac?

Not guilty on grounds of insanity?

Stick him in a looney bin and see if that destroys his credibility?

I stick to my objection to the death penalty based on this simple question: How do you choose your executioner - to whom do you give the right to take a human life in cold blood?

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 05:47 AM

death sentence given and he will hang.

But will he?

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 06:37 AM

George Papavgeris: you say "no exceptions" and that's a very attractive view and I wish I could totally support it. But just suppose Hitler hadn't saved people the trouble, would you really have locked him up for life, providing a focus for God knows what political movements? I can't help feeling that "hold your nose and pull the lever" might have been the necessary attitude? Not an attractive attitude, I admit.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 08:21 AM

Perhaps we should give him an ASBO (that's an 'Anti-Social Behaviour Order for our American friends)- and then let him off when he breaks the terms of it.

I know, let's let him off altogether - murdering ten of thousands of people isn't so bad - especially if you've had a deprived childhood ... is it?

Then, of course, other World Leaders, I can think of, have murdered/are murdering ten of thousands of people, and many of them got away with it/are getting away with it - so why not Saddam?

Why is it that we only start to seriously agonise about morality when we are considering the fate of power-crazed, genocidal psychopaths rather than when they are slaughtering their victims?

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 08:23 AM

Because he is SO powerful is the very reason why we have to think carefully.

His martyrdom will mean the genocidal psychopaths will multiply dramatically.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 09:30 AM

Teribus,

Define "Iraqi people"....

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 09:32 AM

Sure- as long as they string up the U.S. politicians who originally created and supported him when it suited their purposes along side of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 09:57 AM

I'm with Congo Chimp one this one. Murder is murder and as we are so called 'civilised' we should not be murderers, regardless of the provocation. As he wasn't killed on the battlefield we have no right to take his life.

A HARD life for the rest of his life would be a far better punishment.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 10:04 AM

Agreed. If murdering him appeases some people because of the number of lives he took illegally, then Bush deserves to swing first.

Both are blots on humanity. But one of them has the potential to threaten our planet, and it ain't Saddam.

Let them both rot in prison for life.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 10:25 AM

Saddam's crimes were against Iraqis. If Iraqis sentence him to death for those crimes, it's not our business to interfere. And we would be incredibly stupid if we did.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 10:37 AM

So far, it appears, the widespread violent reaction which was to be provoked by the death sentence appears not to have occurred.   Protest, yes, but no huge upswing in attacks by Sunnis on Shiites.

The Sunnis actually have more important concerns than the life of their supposed leader, who was not actually not universally beloved even by Sunnis--they, like other Iraqis, were aware they were living in a police state.

Sunnis are actually still far more concerned with 2 huge issues which have been festering for a long time--the fact that they cannot trust the police since the "Iraqi police" is riddled with Shiite militia, and the fact that they need to be guaranteed oil revenue from other areas of Iraq outside the "Sunni area".

On top of this, they, like all Iraqis, are still also concerned about down-to-earth issues like jobs, electricity, water, health care etc.

The fate of Saddam is far down the list.

And if we are concerned about Iraq, the same should be true for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 10:51 AM

"not actually universally beloved" (double negative not intended)

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 10:52 AM

looks like I'll have to change those bloody guitar srings myself...

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: bobad
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 10:52 AM

A fitting punishment would be having Saddam and GWB sentenced to share a prison cell for the remainder of their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 11:31 AM

Bobad:   I'm not sure that would be such agreat punishment. They are actually very alike and would probably end up best of friends!

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 11:42 AM

I've always been rather puzzled why imprisonment tends automatically to be thought of the soft option in cases like this.

I rather suspect that Saddam might actually prefer being executed. Which is a very good reason for not executing him.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 11:50 AM

Of course executing him is a way of ensuring Saddam can never stand trial for the war of aggression he waged against Iran, in which an estimated one million people were killed - which will very much suit the people in high places in other countries who assisted him in this, notably in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 12:46 PM

Incarceration in isolation for life kept Nazi Rudolph Hess alive for a very long time - before he finally succeeded in killing himself- if I remember correctly he was close to 90 years old.

From what I have read, Hess was miserably unhappy. Alive, yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Shaneo
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 01:03 PM

Did he kill more people in Iraq than The George Bush Army ?
2 wrongs never make a right , just because Saddam killed a load of people does not give George Bush the right to kill even more.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 01:20 PM

Drop him into the Majles in Tehran by parachute and see how long he lasts?

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 01:29 PM

I am sure he would last long enough to be put on a war crimes trial for that 8 year war against Iran. With an interesting list of co-defendants, though I doubt if they'd be too likely to turn up.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Old Guy
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 01:32 PM

The day they captured the bastard I said as long as he is alive, there is a chance that he will come back into power.

And I still say it.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 02:45 PM

I don't think so, Old Guy; his chips are cashed. He is a figurehead to some and that's all; a bit like the British royal family. As long as they are figureheads, people put up with them or even like them - but if they were suddenly given power, we'd see attitudes change.

Greg, I can't blame you for taking the attitude that "prevention is better then the cure"; I disagree personally, but I can see where you are coming from. It is a very fine balance and I simply choose this particular side of the fence.

Hrothgar, I saw on the other related thread that CH has volunteered, so that's resolved.

The whole business of Iraq, Saddam, the war etc is such a filthy mess that nobody can dip into it and come out totally clean. Decisions such as to stay or not to stay, to execute SH or not, to force Iraq to split into three or not etc etc are impossible to make with 100% guilt-free conscience. It's a sea of turds - you just choose your raft and hold on to it. But whatever happens, you'll be splashed.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 03:40 PM

"Sea of turds" - eloquent phrase there. An unpleasant image, but undeniably powerful.

I have a feeling that an executed Saddam might be a more effective figurehead than the live one. "Saddam Lives!" and so forth.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 04:07 PM

Dont forget to stick Tony Blair in the same cell.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 05:17 PM

I have a feeling that an executed Saddam might be a more effective figurehead than the live one. "Saddam Lives!" and so forth.

Very true. He will be immortalised as a fighting man. Standing under duress in a court and pointing a very strong finger whilst engaging in a shouting match with the judge.

Far better he be left to linger and drool into a pathetic figure of forgotten old age.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 05:43 PM

Let the Iraqis decide. And don't interfere.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 05:44 PM

And it appears they have decided.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 06:12 PM

And it appears they have decided.

When did that happen?

It can hardly be denied that there has been a certain amount of "interference" with Iraq over the years, and it is still taking place.

A country under occupation, with a civil war under way is not the right setting for a trial such as this. The right time would have been after all foreign troops were out of the country and a stable government was in place. And at that time he should have been tried for the whole range of crimes which can be laid at his door - including the most serious ones, even those which might be embarrassing to the American government.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 06:28 PM

Pity he was rushed to trial before a local election to select a new government - the trial having been started under a puppet government chosen by the invader was one of his 'defences' - and may help inspire those who seek his 'martyrdom'.

Put him back in his hole, I say - he was there by personal choice, I say.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Nov 06 - 07:57 PM

While being sentenced today Saddam spoke over the judge and said "I put a stop to sectarian violence...the court is owned by invaders and are servants and slaves of the US etc."

Saddam's case is now in appeal but by law he must be executed within 30 days so there will not be much time left to hear his protestations.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 05:48 AM

I am not saying that it is the case here - but IF it were obvious that this one man (despite all his crimes) could end the current bloodshed, unite the people and bring peace to Iraq and keep Iran at bay - as its leader - would it be the best thing to do?

The Western leaders did once think something like this........

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 06:05 AM

Bobert asks me to define what I mean by "the Iraqi people".

The Iraqi electorate Bobert who turned out in droves despite the threat of bomb and gun on three occasions to elect a national government.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 06:33 AM

"...he must be executed within 30 days"

The thirty days rule only comes in after the appeal process is finished. I imagine the length of time that takes will be decided by political considerations, as was pretty evidently the case for the timing of the verdict.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 07:38 AM

Kevin, if you don't think large numbers of Shiites and Kurds are happy with this verdict--and even some Sunnis are--you are deluding yourself. You can criticize the trial if you want--I suspect any trial for crimes against humanity can probably be attacked on procedural grounds -but portraying it as the action of a puppet government--and that seems to be your implication-- is over the top.

And, given his history, it will not be easy to sell Saddam as a martyr.

Subject: RE: BS: Should they top Saddam?
From: GUEST,Janine
Date: 06 Nov 06 - 07:47 AM

I just can't agree with state killing of anyone. The trial was not entirely legit and was paid for by the US Government, I believe. He should have been tried by an international court for real justice to have seen to have been done. Anyway didn't the US Government supply him with the weapons that he used to such horrible effect anyway? There must be an island somewhere where he can be left to serve out his days. I'm sure to that his execution will lead to yet more bloodshed in that unfortunate country.
Jan