UK Licensing Act - another petition.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: ossonflags
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:43 PM

See also bev - sun its on there

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:53 PM

Hi The Shamble,
I read the article in the Times and have no problems with Gordon Brown singing The Ballad of Glencoe (or as I initially called it, The Massacre of Glencoe) but I doubt he's more inclined to sing 'Come awa' England)!

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:49 PM

9,407

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 11:47 AM

8,307

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 11:46 AM

The petition gets a good write up here.

Todays Times - Article on Music Licensing

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:25 PM

The following was posted on uk.music folk.

When I visited http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing today, the
petition was at 12th place with 7662 signatures. It seems likely to be
in the top ten soon. This is very good news, and I would like to thank
everyone who has signed or made it their business to publicise the
petition. Please keep up the good work.

If you visit http://www.cronin.co.uk/licensing you will find that you can download a flyer explaining the issues and asking for support. If
any of you are able to print this out and display it somewhere useful,
I would very much appreciate it.

I would also like to gather some information about the sessions and
folk clubs which have been closed down as a result of the Licensing
Act. My intention is to list these on the web site, so obviously it's
important to be able to show a reasonably plausible link between the
closure and the act. If you can help with such information, please
send an email to [e-mail] (There are some pretty
aggressive spam filters in place, so if you don't get an
acknowledgement within a few days, please try again with less
references to rolexes and viagra.)

Thanks again.

--

Dominic Cronin
Amsterdam

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM

'My view is that there will be an explosion in live music as a result of removing the discriminatory two-in-a-bar provision'
(Lord McIntosh, House of Lords, 26 November 2002).

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 07:53 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall

Please circulate

More than 6,680 people have now signed the licensing/live music e-petition on the Number 10 site:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

As a result the petition has reached number 13 in the list of over 2,500 on this site. By the end of this month it should be well within the top 10.

But many more signatures are needed to attract national media attention, and to encourage the government to make music-friendly changes to the legislation: the Licensing Act 2003.

Please consider signing if you haven't already done so. If you have signed, encourage friends to sign. Points to remember about the new law:

The unlicensed provision of even one musician is a potential criminal offence (although some places are exempt, including places of public religious worship, royal palaces and moving vehicles). Max penalty: £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

The rationale is to prevent noise, crime and disorder, to ensure public safety, and the protection of children from harm.

But broadcast entertainment, including sport and music, is exempt no matter where, and no matter how powerfully amplified.

In the transition to the new regime in 2005, bars with jukeboxes, CD players etc were automatically granted a licence to play recorded music; but their automatic entitlement to one or two live musicians was abolished.

For the first time, private performances raising money for charity are licensable.

School performances open to friends and family are licensable - they count as public performances.

Under the old regime all premises licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises were automatically allowed up to two live musicians (the 'two in a bar rule').

Last December, DCMS published research confirming that about 40% of these have lost any automatic entitlement to live music as a result of the new Act:
'Very few establishments that wanted a new licence were denied it, and many who were previously limited to 2-in-a-bar now have the ability to stage music with 2 or more musicians... This contrasts, of course, with the fact that 40% of establishments now have no automatic means of putting on live music (i.e. they would have to give a TEN).'
['Licensing Act 2003, The experience of smaller establishments in applying for live music authorisation', December 2006', paragraphs 6.1.1 and 6.1.2 'Conclusions', p54; Caroline Callahan, Andy Martin, Anna Pierce, Ipsos-MORI]

'TEN' stands for Temporary Event Notice - in effect a temporary entertainment licence. Only 12 are allowed per premises per year. They cost £21 each. See the full MORI reports on this site:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/Reference_library/Research/research_by_dcms/live_music_exec_summary.htm

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:59 AM


The original petition handed in to Number 10 prior to the PEL becoming law had over 110,000 signatures on it and made no difference.

Well it is difficult to prove such a thing - I suggest that without that petition the Act would have been even worse.

See http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page4259.asp for Number Ten Downing Street's
full response to the E Petition.

Which includes the following.

We believe that the Act will make it simpler and more affordable than now to stage live entertainment in the vast majority of cases and increase opportunities for musicians and other artists to perform

We have also given an undertaking that we will review the existing descriptions of entertainment in the Act six to twelve months after the end of the transition period. If the Act has had an unintended, disproportionate negative effect on the provision of live music -or other forms of regulated entertainment-, there are powers already in the Bill to modify the position through secondary legislation. However we believe that the provisions in the Licensing Act will allow live music and other regulated entertainment to thrive.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 02:52 AM

6581

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 31 Jan 07 - 03:29 PM

I signed a while ago, but received an e-mail today forwarded (by another former Flower of May), from Doug Bailey and Dave Hunt which indicated that the Licensing Act petition had made it up to 17th position, with over 4,000 signatures. Of course the petition against road pricing has over 100 times as many signatures.

Kitty

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: lilly
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 03:18 PM

Pub in my hometown seems to be letting folkies play and sod the bits of paper!! No one has complained, even the local bobby has been in to listen! Just get on with the music.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:57 PM

Where is the great British disdain for petty bureaucracy ?? Bugger the government & their stupid,killjoy,rules & regulations. Petitions ?? Forget "em !! Find a suitably bloody-minded landlord, & just get on with playing & singing as usual !! If the police decide to act,and send in the SAS with tear-gas, then it will just add to the public perception of this bunch of wanquers as the worst government we have ever had. If they REALLY can"t find any issues more worthy of their attention,then they deserve to be overthrown, by force if necessary. I LOVE my country DEARLY ,and I cannot STAND to see it in such chaos and disarray .Give me the leader ,& I will follow!!

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 12:33 PM

Hi All
This licensing law act is a farce, i live in Spain, there probably is some regulation, but no one would ever take any notice of it, i could take my guitar down the local bar, play for as long as i like, and when the local policeman has finished his Brandy and polished his gun, he would probably join in with his harmonica. but if you sold alcohol to kids it would be a problem....isnt that the way it should be.....Thank god i dont live there anymore....

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Bernard
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM

Hah! So often I've played at ceilidhs where the 'traffic light' system is tripped when people are clapping as the top couple dances down the set...!!

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 11:06 AM

Which is more reason for making this petition even higher profile.

And of course the fact that the live music that is permitted - is only taking place - subject to many conditions.

And although the imposition standard or 'blanket' conditions on live music are supposed to have died with the old legislation - most local authorities appear to require the installation of noise-limiters for every application for live music.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: MikkinNotts
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

and mine..

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Bernard
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:33 AM

My name's on it...

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: MikkinNotts
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 10:09 AM

Which is more reason for making this petition even higher profile. I only came across it on Mudcat. None of the main radio folk presenters are on it Mike Harding, Frank Hennessy, Mick Peat, Lester Simpson

I have attached the link to the bottom all all emails I send out now

Mikk

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Jan 07 - 06:07 AM

Now I'm not trying to advertise the hostelries of Holmfirth but any change in the licensing regulations seem to have had the opposite effect here and when it comes to the Festival of Folk in May all but one pub will have music going on.

The situation before was that although only 5% of available premises were licensed for live music - that some form of live music could still take place in the remaining 95%.

Across the land now, the evidence seems to suggest that as a result of the change - around 40% of available premises are now not able host any performance of live music at all.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Cath
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:46 AM

I don't know whether Holmfirth is an exception but when I walked through the town last Thursday to the Open Mic session at Bistro Number 11 I couldn't help notice a large board outside Carniceria advertising weekly live music gigs, I called at Y Bar and was told about forthcoming gigs, Harrows have weekly events and the Picturedrome has gigs almost every week.
Now I'm not trying to advertise the hostelries of Holmfirth but any change in the licensing regulations seem to have had the opposite effect here and when it comes to the Festival of Folk in May all but one pub will have music going on.
I'm sure some luminary on this newsgroup will have an explanation for why it doesn't seem to be a problem here but it is elsewhere!

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: MikkinNotts
Date: 29 Jan 07 - 11:12 AM

The original petition handed in to Number 10 prior to the PEL becoming law had over 110,000 signatures on it and made no difference.
There is a noticeable absence on the list at present of the big names in folk music ie Billy Bragg, the Carthy family and many more. Which leads me to ask, is this petition being given enough of a high level profile?
This new petition has a very long way to go.

29/01/07 - 5,255

Mikk

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: SylviaN
Date: 27 Jan 07 - 05:11 AM

Now 4429

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:50 AM

3902.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Barden of England
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM

Is anybody coming round to the view that we would actually be better off with a Conservative government ?


I thought we already had one

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 09:47 AM

Is that last Guest a Mr Blair by any chance?

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 09:35 AM

"Is anybody coming round to the view that we would actually be better off with a Conservative government ? "

Oh dear!

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Jan 07 - 06:44 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall.

Please circulate

The live music/licensing e-petition now has nearly 2,800 signatures. It currently stands at no.19 in the list of 1,702 petitions on the Number 10 website: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

This is good, especially in just under a month - and there are five more months in which people can sign. But the petition needs to do much better to make an impression on ministers, and to encourage DCMS to implement music-friendly amendments.

The petition is for everyone, not just musicians. Please consider signing if you haven't already done so. If you have signed, encourage friends to sign. Points to remember about the new legislation:

The unlicensed provision of even one musician is a potential criminal offence (although some places are exempt, including places of public religious worship, royal palaces and moving vehicles). Max penalty: £20,000 fine and six months in prison.

The rationale is to prevent noise, crime and disorder, to ensure public safety, and the protection of children from harm.
But broadcast entertainment, including sport and music, is exempt - no matter where, and no matter how powerfully amplified.

In the transition to the new regime, bars with jukeboxes, CD players etc were automatically granted a licence to play recorded music; but their automatic entitlement to one or two musicians was abolished.
For the first time, private performances raising money for charity are licensable.

School performances open to friends and family are licensable - they count as public performances.

Under the old regime all premises licensed to sell alcohol for consumption on the premises were automatically allowed up to two live musicians (the 'two in a bar rule').

In December, DCMS published research confirming that about 40% of these have lost any automatic entitlement to live music as a result of the new Act:
'Very few establishments that wanted a new licence were denied it, and many who were previously limited to 2-in-a-bar now have the ability to stage music with 2 or more musicians... This contrasts, of course, with the fact that 40% of establishments now have no automatic means of putting on live music (i.e. they would have to give a TEN).'
['Licensing Act 2003, The experience of smaller establishments in applying for live music authorisation', December 2006', paragraphs 6.1.1 and 6.1.2 'Conclusions', p54; Caroline Callahan, Andy Martin, Anna Pierce, Ipsos-MORI]

'TEN' stands for Temporary Event Notice - in effect a temporary entertainment licence. Only 12 are allowed per premises per year. They cost £21 each. See the full MORI reports on this site:
http://www.culture.gov.uk/Reference_library/Research/research_by_dcms/live_music_exec_summary.htm

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Jan 07 - 05:57 AM

2714

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:30 AM

2618.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,FFF-Live Myspace
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:24 AM

FFF-Live on Myspace is going strong with over 250 groups and solo artistes on board and spreading the word.

Mainly Traditional Music but a few other genres getting involved now.

The petition needs a lot more pushing if it is to match the previous one!


FFF=Live Crew

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: mandotim
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 01:32 PM

Bernard Wrigley on there...and me!
Tim

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 12:03 PM

2543.

Now Christmas and New Year are over perhaps we can all work to ensure that this petition is as well-supported as the previous one was?

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 01:26 AM

The following was posted on uk.music.folk by Graham Dixon.


Well done Dominic 2439 is a marvellous total for such a short time.

However (IMHO) it's not enough to make a difference YET.

We need to count on musicians from other genres to boost the total.

If you have any frieinds/colleagues who play;-
Country/Jazz/Rock/Pop/Soul/Indie/Brass/Barbers-shop/Classical etc etc.
Or if you visit any other music forums

Please ask them to visit http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/ and sign
this important petition.

The recently introduced changes in licensing law have produced an
environment where music and dance, activities which should be valued
and promoted in a civilised society, are instead damaged by
inappropriate regulation. We call on the Prime Minister to recognise
this situation and take steps to correct it.
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to recognise that music
and dance should not be restricted by burdensome licensing regulations.


KEEP MUSIC LIVE

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:33 PM

The following was posted on uk.music.folk

The petition is to be found at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

The petition has now officially gone mainstream. By that, I mean that
there are more signatories than the journalists-favourite, the Ice
cream juggling petition (http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/juggle/)

Not only that, but we're in the top twenty (No. 19 at the last count,
with 2324 signatures)

This makes it one of the fastest moving e-petitions since the PM's
site started having them. Let's hope the prime minister recognises
that this represents a groundswell of grass-roots opinion (I don't
actually speak "politician", but you know what I mean)

So where do we go from here? The top few petitions are plainly run by
well-orchestrated campaigns, with signatories in the tens of
thousands. Should we aim for that? The paper petition had that kind of
support, so it's not so crazy.

I've started to put some thoughts on the subject down at

http://www.cronin.co.uk/licensing

If you go there, you'll realise that I need help. Does anyone have a
succinct text that describes the key issues in the space of one web
page?

Basically I'm a bit caught out by the success of the thing, and it
would be a shame to waste the opportunity. Good solid copy would
definitely be welcome. PR, editorial skills, graphics, you name it. If
anyone would like to help, please mail me.

Thanks for the support.

Dominic Cronin
Amsterdam

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:13 AM

2299.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Penny Black
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 08:43 AM

Myspace site going strong - with a lot of positive responses and sign-ups.

My Space Link

Why not add the Petition Link to any email Greeting you send out this year (to UK Residents)

Merry Christmas everyone!

Penny Black

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Dec 06 - 08:50 AM

2097.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Juggler
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 02:16 PM

over 2000 now -

surely Juggling indoors or outdoors would fall foul of requiring a licence?

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Dec 06 - 06:23 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall.

David Cronin's online licensing/live music petition has about 1,840 signatures and currently stands at no. 21 in the list of 1,182 petitions on the Number 10 website. Not bad for just under a week.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

However, it still lags behind a petition calling on the prime minister to stand on his head and juggle ice cream.

Of course, if the prime minister were talented enough to stand on his head and juggle ice cream, and if his performance took place indoors, this would be potentially licensable under the new Licensing Act.

The activity would fall within the meaning an 'indoor sporting event' as defined in Schedule 1, para 16(2): '..."Sporting event" means any contest, exhibition or display of any sport, and "sport" includes... (b) any form of physical recreation which is also engaged in for purposes of competition or display'.

ENDS

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:46 PM

It is now 1814.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,numerically dyslexic
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 03:50 PM

ooooooooopppsss!!!

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:47 PM

1762 is the number that I see.

What petition are you looking at?

It is amazing how many composers are born and die - without me even hearing their names other than on such lists - let alone hearing any of their compositions.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,1774
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM

just saw current signatures stand at 1774

for interest, the music references for the year 1774:-

Events

    * Antonio Salieri is appointed court composer to the Emperor Joseph II.
    * Domenico Cimarosa is invited to Rome for the opera season.
    * Charles Burney writes A Plan for a Music School.

Opera

    * Pasquale Anfossi - La finta giardiniera; Olimpiade
    * Christoph Willibald Gluck - Iphigenie en Aulide

Classical music

    * Great Organ Mass by Joseph Haydn
    * Concerto for Viola no 1 in D major by Carl Stamitz

Births

    * January 24 - Karl Moser, composer
    * February 16 - Pierre Rode, violinist, composer, (d. 1830)
    * March 5 - Christoph Ernst Friedrich Weyse, composer
    * April 17 - Václav Jan Křtitel Tomášek, organist and composer
    * October 7 - Ferdinando Orlandi, composer
    * November 14 - Gaspare Spontini, composer
    * November 18 - William Horsley, composer
    * December 20 - Guillaume-Perre-Antoine Gatayes, composer

Deaths

    * January 20 - Florian Leopold Gassmann, composer
    * January 30 - Frantisek Ignac Antonin Tuma and Jean-Pierre Guignon, composers
    * July 7 - Giuseppi Maria Carretti, composer
    * August 25 - Niccolò Jommelli, composer
    * December 2 - Johann Friedrich Agricola, composer
    * date unknown - František Tůma, organist and composer
    * date unknown - Vodicka Vaclav

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:33 AM

1651

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:03 PM

From the petition site.

You must be a British citizen or resident to sign the petition.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,FFF-Live
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:07 PM

Signatures: 1537 A long way to go!

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,has Signed
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:54 PM

Refresh at 1419 signatures

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Penny Black
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:34 AM

Myspace Petition Link

Getting MySpace users onboard - those who have Myspace sites and agree with signing the petition please feel free to link to the above site.

1,119 as I write!

PB

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 09:46 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall.

BBC Radio 4 Today wants to know what law you think should be scrapped:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/vote/2006vote/

It asks you to be specific. Most of the Licensing Act 2003 is about regulating the sale of alcohol. You might want the whole Act scrapped - but you may want to focus on the live music provisions, most of which are set out in Schedule 1, which describes 'regulated entertainment':
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts2003/30017--k.htm#sch1

The main injustice, for me at least, remains the inexplicable inequality of treatment of live and canned entertainment in the context of the crime/disorder/safety/noise rationale of the Act.

Anyone organising even the mildest live music without a licence under the Act could face criminal prosecution - but no such licence is required if providing big screen sport or music in a crowded bar.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Live music e-petition well into top 50
Signatures are rising at a rate of knots. As I write, the number of signatures is passing 900, and the petition is now at number 35 in the list of over 1,100 petitions on the Number 10 website: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Live music penalties - comparison with other offences - correction
A lawyer told me yesterday that some of the offences I listed in my circular urging people to sign the e-petition do in fact carry greater maximum penalties than the maximum penalty under the Licensing Act (a £20,000 fine and six months in prison). I am now seeking clarification from the lawyer who first provided me with that list in response to this question:

'Under the Act, the maximum penalty for anyone found guilty of providing unlicensed live music where a licence is required is £20,000 and six months in prison. Would you mind listing a few other crimes which would be generally perceived as far worse, but for which the penalties are not as severe?'

I will circulate an update on this as soon as I have clarified the position. In the meantime, my apologies for any inaccuracies in that first list and if it was in any way misleading.

However, it does not change the position for the unlicensed provision of live music. Where a licence is required, under the Licensing Act the maximum penalty is a £20,000 fine and six months in prison.