BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI

Subject: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:01 PM

The Ministry of Defence has revealed that over 1,346 soldiers have been convicted of crimes during the last 6 years in N. Ireland. The crimes committed range from traffic offences to killings but do not include other offences dealt with by the Army's own internal procedures, such as some robbers and sex offenders convicted by courts martial. The convictions hit a recent high in 2003, when serving soldiers were found guilty almost every day, 300 convictions. Considering these stats were gathered during a period of relative peace in the Province it would be interesting to see the figures for the years between 1970 and 1989. I won't hold my breath on that one. I am amazed however to see atleast these figures released.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:01 AM

220 offences of all kinds per year. How does this compare with any other group of 10000 20-odd year olds?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:36 AM

Paul is right.
The location is irrelevant.
British soldiers are among the best diciplined,so you would find the same level or much higher among soldiers anywhere in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:08 AM

I have experienced your British soldiers on the streets of my home town and they were far from being the "best disciplined" soldiers in the world, uniformed bullies would have been a better description.
I would have loved to have met one of these scum on their own, that never happened as you were confronted by a squad of well armed thugs, who looked upon the Irish as inferior beings, being told as much by their superiors didn`t help, for 30 years this numerically superior force were given the runaround by the IRA.

Lady Sylvia Hermon Unionist MP asked the question in the commons yesterday concerning the British Army`s convictions for crime,the Lady in Question would have not been a supporter of the IRA, when given the figures by armed forces minister Adam Ingram, the good Lady was "utterly astonished".
The good Lady would also be "utterly astonished" if she was ever given the number of murders carried out by the British Army when they colluded with Protestant para-militaries in the deaths of many innocent civilians, including the Dublin-Monaghan bombings in which 34 people were killed the highest figure in the troubles.

Best disciplined army in the world?, tell that to the occupied people of the rest of the world where the British held sway.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM

OK, let's see 1,346 soldiers convicted for crimes in the last 6 years. Works out at an average of 224.33 each year. Roughly 15,000 British troops stationed in Northern Ireland at any given time over that period. Therefore this "criminal" element, which of course it is not, as Den admits these "crimes" include traffic offences which are civil offences not criminal, makes up 1,5% of the total contingent.

If the same percentage was applied to the British Isles as a whole on the same basis, i.e. including all those convicted of motoring offences, I think whatever government was in power would be shouting it from the rooftops, so proud would they be of their law abiding public.

Once again another disingenuous thread wracked with inaccuracies and misrepresentation.

"The crimes committed range from traffic offences to killings but do not include other offences dealt with by the Army's own internal procedures, such as some robbers and sex offenders convicted by courts martial."

Well Den, best ask for the Provost Martials figures then as they will have all the figures your 1,346 included and doubled up. Ever heard of consequential punishment Den? If you are tried before a civilian court (criminal or civil) you are also charged under military code for the offence of bringing the service into disrepute.

So courts martial deal with robbers and sex offenders do they Den? Not if the robbery was committed against a member of the public they don't, that is a civil police matter and lies outwith the jurisdiction of the military courts, in such a case the soldier would appear in front of a court martial to be dismissed the service with subsequent loss of pay and pension before he would appear before the civilian criminal court for trial and sentencing. If the robbery was committed within the service it will be dealt with within the service, normally it results in a period of time served at Colchester Detention Centre - not a nice place - very few who have ever experienced its regime ever return.

Sex Offenders Den? Define what you mean by sex offenders Den, give us some examples of sex offenders who have been tried by courts martial Den.


The Ministry of Defence has revealed that over 1,346 soldiers have been convicted of crimes during the last 6 years in N. Ireland. The crimes committed range from traffic offences to killings but do not include other offences dealt with by the Army's own internal procedures, such as some robbers and sex offenders convicted by courts martial. The convictions hit a recent high in 2003, when serving soldiers were found guilty almost every day, 300 convictions. Considering these stats were gathered during a period o

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:09 AM

I think you need to calm down Teribus before you hurt yourself. What I quoted was information released by the Ministry of Defence in their words not mine. I think you're right though we should have more detail into some of the offences such as the sex offences and oh murder but you see the Ministry of Defence is not willing to divulge any details. So, sorry I can't help you. I agree with you though I think the public has the right to know. Keith and Paul your arguments are at best pathetic. Lets compare the discipline of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan over the same period. More later, right now I don't have time.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:13 AM

Sorry Den I hadn't finished:

For the four years 2001 to 2004 the crime figures for the rest of you law abiding citizens in Northern Ireland are as follows:

Note Den these do not include motoring offences other than dangerous driving and actual overall crime rates are four times the number given here, these are only the cleared/convicted figures:

2001/2002 - 28,142
2002/2003 - 32,806
2003/2004 - 35,093
2004/2005 - 33,344

Population of Northern Ireland is 1,710,000 approximately

That's an average rate of 1.9% Den - Not counting motoring offences. By the way Den I have knocked off figures for "our errant" squaddies. Streets are hardly safe enough for our brave lads to walk down eh Den?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:38 AM

Robbery, Rape, Murder, Discipline:
One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?
You gotta' love Sesame Street, the wisdom of children.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:50 AM

Den, you said that my arguments were pathetic at best.
In my short post I simply made a statement.
Re Canadian army discipline, I would rate it as highly as british army discipline.

Ard, how many other peace keeping forces have you experience of to make comparisons?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:27 AM

On Den's invitation - "Lets compare the discipline of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan over the same period."

Rather difficult to do Den:
- they haven't been there six years.
- they are on active service, therefore they will not appear before any civilian courts in Afghanistan
- they are unlikely to be driving around for pleasure, hence opportunity for the Afghan Police Speed Cops to charge them is remote.
- they are unlikely to be spending much of their spare time off base, further reducing the opportunity to fall foul of local laws.

So not really comparing apples to apples here are we Den?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:39 AM

Ard, you said "Best disciplined army in the world?, tell that to the occupied people of the rest of the world where the British held sway. "

Which people would they be?
Britain's former colonies remain warm friends.
There are often exchanges between our armies, shared training and use of each other's facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,flamenco ted
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:53 AM

Thank you for shooting down another anti-English thread Terribus and Keith. There are so many armchair provo's here now,complete with their own tame moderator that I can't be bothered to post here any more.
                Flamenco, the true path!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:35 AM

stiil at it, I mean these people will never listen, because they don't want to listen. So it's flogging a dead horse with these folk.

I've been to Northern Ireland, and I found it quite peaceful, can't you people not be postive for once, and try to get on with one another instead of disliking each other that's why Northern Ireland is in such a state, because the only way you can settle you diferences was with the gun and the bomb instead of sitting down and talking.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:36 AM

if you have nothing good to say don't say anything

now goodbye

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:42 AM

PS.
Final one,

I can't be bothered to argue so don't answer me please

LOYALIST AND REPUBLICAN ARE ALL THE SAME HUMAN BEINGS.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:08 PM

The usual crew of one-eyed limeys, remember your Government was twice condemned by the European Court of human rights for inhuman and degrading treatment, your record in this country is one of murder and collusion with your Protestant para-military friends.
I once again recommend you to John McGuffins two books, a free read on the net, The Guinea Pigs and Internment, Teribus and Keith it may be above your heads, but do try and read them, if you are having trouble with the contents, give me a buzz, and Teribus keep taking the tablets.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:17 PM

Still living in the past though aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:23 PM

wnder how many parking tickets and drunk in public fines the IRA paid?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 01:45 PM

How refreshing to see in our midst, such open minded debate taking place!

What generosity of spirit and civilised bonhommie!

Its amazing how the Christmas message touches us all in our separate ways!

God bless each and every one!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 04:02 PM

Dear oh dear oh dear Den, don't you know the "three Rabbits" won't like this thread ? Nothing new in, our local paper was full of crimes throughout the seventies. Stealing from bomb sites being the most popular. I was robbed myself at a P.Check. One tramp took my lighter, cigarettes and the few pounds I had, oh sorry got a kick in the balls too. What do you expect from a pig only a grunt.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:46 PM

If I am one of your rabbits divis, I did like the thread.
It has shown that soldiers in Northern Ireland commit proportionally fewer crimes than the civillian population.
I can see why you and Ard did not like it though.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:53 PM

Ah but Keith the civilian population are not paid to keep the peace by the government and strut about with an SA80 in their hands looking like good boys and really some were very naughty.
Officers and gentlemen are not supposed do these things, are they ?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 05:58 PM

I knew when I saw the first troll post in this thread that it would degenerate into a slanging match and another episode of 'Living in the Past'
Why are you all so predictable?
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:00 PM

So civilians of NI are expected to act like that?


Come on divis, you have been hauled to book again. You really should find yourself a new hobby as you are losing all credibility as you flail ever more desperate.

Yet again you don't get the response you want because some of us deal in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Pistachio
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:36 PM

Would you really rather the British Army hadn't been there at all - members of your family and friends may well have suffered more if the troops hadn't been sent in to HELP, and REMEMBER they were ORDERED there,and given the job to do to the best of their ability. Not all wanted to go,not all of they came back, their families were often terrified at the voice of the newsreaders of the day. Ask my Parents and my 'in-Laws.
My friend died there, but it was in a traffic accident. My colleagues young fiancees died there in 1979. It's sad but it's life - today, as in history people disagree and fight and believe in what THEY believe. I had a most interesting time serving there, as did two of my family, it's a beautiful country with cities and towns and hills and people who don't all do what they 'should' but look at any other cities and towns and hills and people, are they all as squeaky clean as they 'should' be.
Oh where have all the flowers gone.
If you I can't help maybe I have to move on to a place where I can.
Goodnight - and in the words of the late great Dave Allen - "May your God go with you".

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:39 PM

Sorry Guest
I didn't start this thread. No need for a new hobby. "Flail" sounds interesting, do you have a recipe for it ?

No I actally very busy promoting the peace process in Ireland and keeping all the Provo's on board. Would you prefer I promoted going back to the armed struggle ? (can't win with some people)

I image you are one of lifes little people who has nothing to reflect on in life. Me on the other hand has.

In between European travel and promoting Ireland whilst there.

You deal with fact ? Christ and you hide behind a Guest name. Sad person. Laughing my ass off.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 06:48 PM

divis long may you laugh. You are getting very predictable. Did anyone say you started this thread? No. Again let's stick to fact. It was just another lazy attempt for you to try and post devoid of truth and then your ever predictable saving face follow up . Get used to it - a lot of people here are a lot more informed than you.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:02 PM

Pistachio, I agree it wasn't easy loosing accepting death. Sadly I grew to accept it, it does that to you after a while. Yes I lost family at the hands of loyalist killers and I lost family to the British forces too.

I cannot and never could accept the British army on my streets no.

I am not prepared to go into my own circumstances on this site as you can understand.

There seems to be a few voices on this site that hate the fact that a few republicans happen to come here. I make no excuse for who I am or what I stand for. In fact I have many friends here who I respect and they know who I am and have no problem with it.

I can and will defend the Provisional IRA and I can and do accept your opinion and the role you played. Sadly some can't debate on these topics and think firing the odd line at me will put me off ! Oh how little they know me.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:08 PM

I was halfway through a posting on this thread this afternoon when the electric cut for a split second & computer started to reboot, & I didnt come back on.

I really don't feel like posting here now I read whats been said since.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:10 PM

Ah Guest lovely to see you back so soon. So glad I am getting under your skin otherwise you wouldn't be posting so often. I attended a wonderful dinner on Saturday evening in my honour. So many friends there who were released under the Good Friday Agreement. We were looking at the sentences dished out to them and how little they actually served. Well clearly your government accepted they were political prisoners. Hope this also gets stuck up your nose.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:25 PM

Promoting peace wherever you go are you Divis?
Probably funded by the British taxpayer like just about everything else over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:30 PM

Poor deluded divis, so stuck in the past he thinks every one who knows what and who he is must be a brit.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:44 PM

Troll "GUEST" alert.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Billygoat Gruff
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 07:50 PM

Which"GUEST" is it Guest?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Brackagh Moss
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:54 PM

The figures are a good reason why the British Army should leave our country NOW. One conviction is too much criminality from that quarter, IMO.

I should like to see more of these so-called 'Peace Keepers' taken to book for their repeated ventures to the other side of the law in the 22 or so years leading up to the beginning of this latest set of statistics.

I believe Teribus once told us he himself treaded cheerfully in the realms of the errant squaddie.

Give us one of your old stories, Uncle Teribus.
We love 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Sneaky Beaky
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 08:59 PM

Jackanory, Jackanory, Jackanory.

Boom boom!!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:15 PM

There it is at last "I can and will defend the provisional IRA". Killers all just like the people he hates.
"Round like a circle in a spiral.."
So far we've had no one happily defending... fill in your own murderous psychopaths from the last 200 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:20 PM

http://www.portadownphotos.freehomepage.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:21 AM

Divis while I respect your right to hold the views you do, I will NEVER agree that murder, torture, and armed robbery could be described as "Political crimes"
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:07 AM

The British government would wish nothing better than the ongoing investigations into British collusion in the north of Ireland to quietly disappear.
We have had top policemen sent over to investigate various British dirty tricks and who have had all sorts of obstacles put in their way.
Remember John Stalker?, poor John tried his best but was met with what he described as"a wall of silence" this was referring to the RUC`s unwillingness to help, also John Stevens whose offices were burnt down after he found collusion was rife in the death of Pat Finucane the Catholic Solicitor, and of course Judge Cory the Canadian, who found collusion going on, right to the top.

Anyone remember Captain Fred Holroyd, an M6 operative stationed in Portadown and in British Army HQ in Lisburn, after being forced to leave the Army, Holroyd revealed the actions of the "dirty tricks" dept, chiefly their collusion with Protestant paramilitaries in bomb making and their role in the Dublin-Monaghan bombs.

Yes, wouldn`t Blair and co wish Ahern to stop asking him questions on the Army`s role in their collusion with their murder gangs.

There is a lot more to come, just watch this space.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM

There a lot of people in NI who apparently don't want to be ruled from Westminster. Far too many for it to be practical proposition to carry on as we are doing.

So you need to convince about three hundred and fifty English MP's to relinquish NI. Most of these people represent English people who don't like Ian Paisley. Most English people would like to see an end to this conflict - period.

What I don't see - and I can't see why not - is a concerted high profile cross party campaign by the various repblican parties to solve this by this simple democratic process. I think you would get lots and lots and lots of support from English people who dread with a change of government the oncoming symbiotic Tory/Unionist alliance bringing back the bad times.

When you have achieved separation, you can sort out the United Ireland thing between you. No business of ours.

Gerry Adams in his recollections of the Cheyne House talks admits that the English government of the time wanted to negotiate with him and his Sinn Fein colleagues, who were in captivity at the time. However he admits he was too young, perhaps immature and had too much fire in his belly at the time. They were just very young guys at the time.

Perhaps the troops wouldn't have been there if solutions using the democratic processes that were there had been pursued. I realise that there were unfair things built into the system. However they can't totally frustrate the will of the people, and I really do think people were so pissed off with seeing young soldiers being killed - even now, you would win the day if you got it before an English parliament - if you did the ground work. And there are enough Irish people in England to mount such a campaign.


Do you still see dealing with the English political system as a sort of cop out? Surely risking the situation deteriorating again, and risking landing another generation with this problem is a worse option.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:36 AM

Considering the murderers and crooks from both sides were released back into the community under the Good Friday Agreement

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:40 AM

Pressed too soon.......

......it's rich that their supporters are bleating so much about the said crimes committed by British forces. Where's their amnesty from the IRA, UDA,UFF et al???

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM

Returning to the thread,
Divis, you said "paid to keep the peace by the government and strut about with an SA80 in their hands looking like good boys "

But these are just soldiers Divis.
You and Ard have called them Scum of the Earth.
They are predominantly recruited from the most deprived and crime infested parts of Britain. Those very parts that Ard has been on about in his Britain's Yobs thread.
The figures for NI people is for all backgrounds, yet still the soldiers are better.

The soldiers are of the most crime prone age, late teens and early twenties.
The figures for NI people is for all ages, including infants and the elderly, yet still the soldiers are better.

The figures for the soldiers include traffic violations while the NI people's figures do not.
Even yet the soldiers are better.

Intended as another muck slinging smear of the army, this thread has given a ringing endorsement of their discipline and behaviour.
Thanks Den.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM

Nitpicking Keith, we want shut of it.....

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:33 AM

Keith, sometimes I have to shake my head when I read some of your comments. I started this thread because I thought that it was interesting that the Government would admit to anything and I thought it would of interest to people here. I did not start it to troll as Mr. Mackenzie has stated above. Comparing civilian crimes with those perpatrated by civil servants is ludicrous and an extremely weak way in which to score points. Should we compare the crime figures in England to those provided for N. Ireland. What would that prove? Everyone who has defended the army miscreants in this thread seem to completely ignore the fact that the Ministry of Defense has acknowledged the fact that soldiers robbed, raped and murdered. Does this not shock anyone or is it because the ones being robbed, raped and murdered were just a bunch of Paddys. I think that it is important for the government to come clean. It is time for truth and reconciliation from all corners for without it there is no foundation from which to build the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:45 AM

The Ministry of Defence has revealed that over 1,346 soldiers have been convicted of crimes during the last 6 years.... Convicted means they didn't get away with it Paddy my boy

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:47 AM

Den,
    Your last post has to be one of the most disengenuous I have ever read on mudcat, worthy of Gerry Adams himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:52 AM

Dave do you even realize how insulting it is to call me Paddy and what was the point of your post other than to call me names.

Fairy Princess you know absolutely nothing about me, so your comments are meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:19 AM

I was pointing out an obvious fact about your whole post Den... You take far too much to heart mate, and it gets very tiring. In the culture I belong to, "Paddy" is more of a term of endearment than derogatory. The meaning of Paddy is "A Son of Ireland" and I take great offence to you impling I was using it in anything other than what it was intended as. We refer to the Welsh as "taffy" and on more than one occasion I have been called "Limey" without offence or taking the "Mickey" Get a life Den!!!