BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:38 AM

Keith, the lies are accepted by those who accept them.

I knew a bloke who served in the BAOR in the mid 60's - lives just down the street, I played in the same band one time. he reckoned in those relatively peaceful days - the NI postng was thought to be amongst the cuhiest in the British army - amongst friendly people, and no real distance from home.

So nobody except foreigners (for that's what they are, whatever their ancestry) and people with an axe to grind are saying the British army initiated the troubles. I think every policeman in England had his head in his hands when they found out the army was going to do policing duties. Ho hum! That's really not what soldiers are trained to do. But if they acted like scum, they managed for a whole lot of years before the troubles without doing so.

The people you argue with constantly are going to think what they think. feel what they feel, say what are going to say. Its as well they do it here - lets hope it makes them feel better. Give them room.

as for Ard, he's going to go on about 'the spite and hate still being peddled by our fair-minded British friends' . He will do that til the day he dies. Poor sod - he's stuck with it.

Try and work out a better ending for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 09:19 AM

you may continue to glorify your colonial past, but if an Irish person gives the facts of British occupation in Ireland he is deemed a liar.

Where have either of these things happened on this thread please?

A recent independent report drew attention to collusion between loyalists terrorists and sections of the RUC and UDR 1972-77.

What has this to do with the point of this thread please?

Would you please do as asked by your own countrymen and stick to both the facts and the point of the thread. If you want to start a new thread about any of your points above feel free.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Shaneo
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:08 AM

All of this reminds me of a great song by Tommy Sands called 'There Were Roses' about a catholic and protestant who were killed in Co. Down.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:05 AM

I spend a very enjoyable sporting week-end and come back to see the spite and hate still being peddled by our fair-minded British friends, you may continue to glorify your colonial past, but if an Irish person gives the facts of British occupation in Ireland he is deemed a liar.

A recent independent report drew attention to collusion between loyalists terrorists and sections of the RUC and UDR 1972-77.

This pattern was also clear on a large scale throughout the 1980s and 1990s as well.
Loyalist paramilitary groups had worked their way into the the security nexus, and it was this covert arm which gave them such clout.

Many Catholics died at RUC/UDR/Army linked UVF/UDA hands for what they symbolised, rather than for any political actions.
They were killed because they were Catholic, neither age, gender nor innocence saved them.

The British government, including Special Branch and MI5, knew of these plots and could have prevented them but chose to remain silent.

Nationalists have every reason to be outraged by the secrecy preventing investigation of crimes, such as collusion and mass murder.

In a democracy it would be unthinkable for government or police to withhold information, but in N Ireland files have been concealed or destroyed,thus hindering investigations into countless murders of nationalists.

Crying out for for justice to a heedless colonial administration is useless, what is needed is an international inquiry into the whole festering issue of collusion between loyalist terrorists and the British security forces.

The important point is that the Briti government in charge of affairs here in the north of Ireland have been in league from day one with Protestant paramilitaries and no amount of twisted waffle from our band of Brits will change this.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 08:04 AM

You can call him that, but can you fault what he says?
It is actually completely accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:45 AM

That's rich coming from the biggest shit stirrer on this site !!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:41 AM

I share your despair Johnny, but "on both sides"?

All these threads are started by Republicans.
And on this thread it was Republicans steered it back to the same old ground.
Sure it takes two to tango, but if people post attacks on a country or an institution and it goes unchalleged, the lie becomes the accepted truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:40 AM

You can't help some of these people because they are stuck in the past, that they can't move on, and one has hinted that they might be a member of the IRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:25 AM

God and a Soldier men alike adore
When at the brink of danger, not before
The danger past, alike are both requited,
God is forgot and the brave Soldier slighted

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 07:23 AM

I despair.

How can there be peace in that part of Ireland we call 'Northern', when some people are filled with such hatred and give out such bile and venom as we've seen here? It's impossible to have a rational discussion - every time there's an 'Ireland' thread, the usual suspects (on both sides) start dragging up the same old shite and playing the 'Oh yes you did, oh no we didn't' game, giving out their one-sided view of the world and refusing to acknowledge there's another.

Even guys who I know, through personal experience, are kind and compassionate people join in the shit-slinging. It's so sad. It takes two to tango, guys - dwell on that one for a while please.

I make no judgment about the rights and wrongs of what's gone on in Ireland, for the simple reason I don't know enough about it, I just wish to God that everyone, all parties, would give lasting peace a genuine chance over there. And I bet the vast majority over here in mainland UK wish the same.

Happy Christmas to you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:14 AM

OK I'M A TWO FACED I KNOW THAT, AND I'LL ADMIT TO IT, BUT CAN SOME OF YOU

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 05:11 AM

It's only a joke, I don't really hate the English, my brother in law is English, I don't really hate anyone,I just say it as a joke.

not a funny joke I admit, so you see most of my friends are English.
Oh and my brother in law is also very very rich as well.

Tom

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Dec 06 - 01:37 AM

ha ha ha.
LOL
Yes , it is much funnier to ridicule a member's name than to answer a charge of hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:47 PM

Tom Hamilton - 17 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

"I agree DtG the English , because the Scots, Welsh and Cornish are Celts like the Irish as well as the Manx people. and we all have one thing in common hate the English well some of us anyway."

Well Tom I know you are from around Irvine, actually very few people who call themselves Irish, Scots, Welsh and Cornish can establish the fact that they are Celts.

Everything went into the melting pot a long time ago.

If you subscribe to the philosophy that just because you are "Scots" there is this common hatred of the English, then quite frankly I pity you. I am myself a Scot, I do not "hate" anybody based on their race, creed or colour - certainly not on their nationality - Remember that we're all Jock Tamson's bairns - that includes the English Tom.

For the non-Scots just by way of explanation:

"We're aw Jock Tamson's Bairns" (Lowland Scots for we're all John Thomson's children) is a popular saying in Scotland and is known in other parts of the world. Nowadays, the phrase is often used to mean "we're all the same under the skin".

It has been suggested as a euphemism for God, so the saying could mean "we are all God's children". Scottish Gaelic also has the shorter saying "Clann MhicTamhais" (Thomson/MacTavish's children/clan). This is a common egalitarian sentiment in Scottish national identity, also evident in the popularity of the Robert Burns song A Man's A Man for A' That.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 08:12 PM

I'm Scottish I was born in Scotland and I live in Scotland

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:25 PM

LOL

HumoUr can change things. Hope you ALL have a good Christmas season.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:22 PM

.... and Spencer

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:18 PM

Karl....?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:16 PM

The Marx brothers

Chico — Leonard, (March 22, 1887–October 11, 1961)
Harpo — Adolph ((November 23, 1888–September 28, 1964)
Groucho — Julius Henry, (October 2, 1890–August 19, 1977)
Gummo — Milton, (October 23, 1892–April 21, 1977)
Zeppo — Herbert, (February 25, 1901–November 30, 1979)

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 06:07 PM

Who's Pistaccio? Is he the guy with the nose? Or the nuts in the icecream? If the latter, he's gotta be shivering by now.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM

Divis, you just said
"
I see the thread drift blame game has also arrived.

This thread started out in life as a news story reported in the media by a respected member of this site.

It turned into a questions and answers match about the past activities of the Provisional IRA (1969 to 2005)."

The first person to go back to the Troubles was Ard in his first post.
No one followed his lead.
Then Ard did it again in his second post.
Again everyone else kept to the original issue.
Then YOU Divis did it in your first post.
STILL everyone else kept to the original thread untill Pistaccio posted.

Hypocrisy Divis.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:18 PM

Aaah isn't that nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM

And the same here Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:54 PM

I will NEVER not call you my friend, Divis.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:51 PM

Yet again a thread dealing with Irish matters becomes slightly twisted and steered off track. This has become a trend. The purpose is clear to me.

There are English members that just make attacks on me, (no worries, can take it, took worse).

There are English members that speak with reason and understanding to the situation in Ireland.

I see the thread drift blame game has also arrived.

This thread started out in life as a news story reported in the media by a respected member of this site.

It turned into a questions and answers match about the past activities of the Provisional IRA (1969 to 2005).

Yes this was done to goat me as all members who visit Irish threads know I will defend the PIRA.

Early in this thread I received the usual dig that guests would arrive and support my case, always said half assed as if they were posted by me under "Guest".

Just look at the above arrivals, have any of them supported me in numbers ? No of course they haven't. And has any member remarked about this ? no of course not.

If any member wants to talk about Den's thread that's fine.

If any member wants to attack me and my views, that's fine too. Just make it a seperate thread.

I condemn personal attacks or threats against any member of this site. They can abuse me day or night, I have no problem with it, water of a ducks arse to me.


Divis

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM

Fairs fair, agreed we all are on what should be done with badies if caught, or should I now say when caught?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM

"It contributes to continuing hatreds and makes impossible the meetings of minds that you all seem to need."

I sure fucked THAT up, didn't I?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 04:01 PM

But Marcus is dead. And so are too many others in the conflict/troubles/civil war/war of oppression/war for liberation--call it what you will. Much of what has been posted here is pointless, because it does nothing to ease tensions. It contributes to continuing hatreds and makes impossible the meetings of minds that you all seem to need. There are too many good people forgetting that they ARE good people, because the passions of the past weigh heavy in their souls. I truly wish you would step back for a day or so and ask whether what you've contributed to this thread is about one-up-manship or about discussion; whether the angers simply conceal hatred or are stumbling steps toward a peaceful resolution; whether it is worth it to you to lose sight of what you are and forget what you might become.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:53 PM

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject.

Marcus Aurelius

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:46 PM

Straight from the horses' mouth!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Black Beauty
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM

There are differences of opinion and disagreements, but this has become catty. You all seem to look for signs of any inherent weaknesses. In fact, the way that some members handle responses in the thread is childish.

The most important factor in determining what is best for this country through debate not bitching. If some members think they have learned the art of constructive arguing you are so wrong.

When productive arguments or disagreements degenerate into harmful name-calling and other verbal attacks, relationships among members can suffer serious damage.

Although disagreements pop-up in all subjects on this site, arguing need not grow into a bigger problem. How can you prevent differences of opinion from developing into heated and destructive arguments.

Stick To The Issue At Hand. Don't "dig up skeletons" or recall past events or circumstances. That will only make other members more disagreeable and is likely to lead to scorekeeping.

Member called "Guest" you are the worst.

Love Charlotte

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:29 PM

Arsehole that I am, I forgot to post LOL.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:28 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:25 PM

Which army are you a Colonial in?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:19 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peace
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:17 PM

I hate to interrupt this otherwise delightful conversation, but the spelling of that word is "harboUring". We now return you to the regularly scheduled program.

PS I am a Colonial, and therefore exempt from the expected good manners which people have been displaying here.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:07 PM

"How stupid do they think we all are?"

Very, unless you're including the PIRA "guests" that we are harboring
here in the land of the free.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

I agree DtG the English , because the Scots, Welsh and Cornish are Celts like the Irish as well as the Manx people. and we all have one thing in common hate the English well some of us anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM

Agreed, sorefingers! Common ground at last:-) People shouldn't hide what they are or what they did. I believe everyone can be genuinely sorry for past misdemeanours though - If they are genuine in that they should be forgiven as well. I think most English people are genuinely sorry for how the Irish have been treated, even if they had nothing to do with it! Some of our posters however have a different opinion and believe that even when the oppressor has been well and truly beaten they should take every opportunity to kick them while they are down. Perhaps that is why the English and Irish will never get on. Too much alike;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 02:26 PM

Phaaat as long as folks don't try to hide what they are or did, everything is fine. But they don't.

Sneak into Canada then over the Canadian border, slither over to Las Vegas, or Los Angeles or Seattle etc. How stupid do they think we all are?

One of these days the rest of the US will wake up and decide to clean house, illegal alien criminals, war criminals and the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:33 PM

"whoops - itchy fingers!"

Hope that's not your trigger finger DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:16 PM

whoops - itchy fingers!

...McArthys investigations. The hippies making peceful protests under the home guards night sticks and the soldiers returning from Vietnam able to voice their displeasure at how they were treated.

I do recall anything similar happening in the UK. Or am I getting mixed up with Joe Stalins Russia? I get mixed up - The world outside the US is all the same to me...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:13 PM

C'mon spit it out!

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:10 PM

Oh, and before anyone else gets on their high horse about constitutional free speech I suggest you ask the 'Communists' subjected to McArthys

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM

Unsurprisingly Northern Ireland now has the highest rise in racist crime in the UK. Particularly racist attacks against children. It's drug seizures have also doubled and homophobic attacks are rising at a rate of knots.

I suspose the British Army are to be blamed for these too?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:58 PM

Looked very much like a threat to me. Still does. You suggest that Teribus is an ex British Army thug, living in Canada and go on to say that you know where such people live. Why else say it if it is not an attempt to intimidate? I know full well that this is a US site and should be dedicated to Folk and Blues music. If it means so much to you to keep it so why are you posting to this thread? I also point you to mudcat editorial policy.

We try very hard to preserve freedom of expression here at Mudcat, so we edit and delete messages as sparingly as we can. However, part of that freedom is that people should feel safe to be here and express their ideas without fear of being bullied or threatened. Heated discussions are generally considered "protected" around here, but if you find a post that is seriously offensive because it is a threat or a personal attack, let Joe or Pene (or Max) know about it and we'll take a look at it.

I did point this out knowing full well that threats against anyone supporting the English are the exception to the rule of course. Us Bastard Brits get all we deserve and should all be killed at birth.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:48 PM

Sorearse

"criminaol" ?? Go straight to gaol.

Is that how it's spelled west of the Emerald Isle?

Where's "friendly fire" when you really need it?

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:28 PM

DtG would do well to recall that the Muddy was founded and existed for years soley as an American Blues and Folk music site before the UK folkies found it, AND it is still an American website. You should also be aware that for years we just made fun of Politics and the rest here.

You might like to chew on the fact that here in the USA, unlike the UK, free speech is guaranteed by the Bill Of Rights incoporated into our Constitution. So before you round up a posse you need to come out here, because from where you are at there is absolutely nothing you can do.

And I don't make threats, I don't need to. Ex-British Army thugs out here know who they are and those who try to hide their criminal disgusting history give themselves away by that very act. We don't need to look for them, they lead us to them every time.

Anyway every war criminaol, Nazi, British or anyother for that matter is fair game OUT HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:11 PM

Guest sorefingers - Would you please note that threats against people are not permitted on this forum. I am quite surprised that the moderators have not yet deleted yours. I imagine it is only a matter of time. Or does we know who and where you are intimate that you are going to send them Christmas cards?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,OrangeOrder
Date: 17 Dec 06 - 12:05 PM

Because King Willie played with his does not mean you can do it too. While the canny Fenians organise a revolution in Scotland you are out here daydreaming.

Go to the bathroom and wash your skull to be ready for Rock McBatts.
Orange dicipline