BS: Are you a 'natural person'?

Subject: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST,Natural Guest
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 08:23 PM

Did a search, didn't find this topic anywhere on the forums:

"In jurisprudence, a natural person is a human being perceptible through the senses and subject to physical laws, as opposed to an artificial person, i.e., an organization that the law treats for some purposes as if it were a person distinct from its members or owner."

The above is the Wikipedia definition of "natural person". The below helps clarify the definition. It speaks of Canada but also applies to the U.S.:

One of the ways Governments and other regulators have tricked you into thinking you must follow their rules, is to create for themselves an "artificial-person / corporation" who is not you, but whom the Government has fooled you into thinking is you (See Natural vs. Artificial). But, so as not to violate your fundamental rights, they also have provide recognition in law for another legal entity called a "natural-person" (simply meaning a human-being in the law) with which most of your fundamental rights are still intact. So when you interact with the law, you may be represented as an artificial or natural person - you choose.

http://www.natural-person.ca/

In order to implement slavery of it's citizens and control them according to its whim, the Government had to invent a system that would not violate a human-being's fundamental rights, but would allow the Government to "own" everything produced or gained by its citizens.

The technique used by the Government was to create an artificial-person (referred to herein as a CORPORATION for emphasis) for every human-being in Canada. As creator of a CORPORATION, the Government can demand anything it wants from the CORPORATION. As a legal entity, a CORPORATION does not have feelings and cannot be hurt. It can be subject to slavery and complete domination by its creator and the CORPORATION must obey its creator.

So for every John Doe human-being in Canada, the Government created a JOHN DOE CORPORATION. Capital letters are used to represent CORPORATIONS and COMPANIES. Lower case letters are used to represent the name of the natural-person. See Capitalization.

http://www.natural-person.ca/artificial.html

Just type "natural person" into a search engine for thousands of enlightening articles on this topic. Basically, the govt turns you into a corporation by monkeying with the rules of grammar. Your birth certificate probably follows the rules of grammar...capital first letters, other letters lower case. But then the govt starts issuing you paperwork with ALL CAPS. Your social security card, for example. You're asked to check it for spelling. You think your name is spelled correctly and sign off on it. At that point, you have created a legal corporation with YOUR NAME in all caps. It's called a "straw man." The U.S. govt cannot do business with individuals...only other govts and corporations. So, to cheat and abuse you, they turn you into a third-party, or a "straw man" corporation.

If I could make everyone in the U.S. and Canada aware of one bit of information, it would be this bit. This trickery is the basis of all illegal taxes. Also, it makes you the actual, physical property of the govt.

I'm researching this for some tax payments coming up. I have to print out the articles yearly, to amaze and stupefy the bureaucrats demanding money from me. They are totally unaware of this stuff. Even their software is set to print my name in ALL CAPS by default, and that's why I have to go in each year and speak to them, to have them manually override and type my name according to the rules of grammar. I point out the name on the deeds follows the rules of grammar (Cap the first letter, lowercase the rest), and if they want my taxes they need to correct their paperwork.

Check your deeds and titles. If your name is in ALL CAPS, then your "corporate self" owns the property, and it can be seized at any time for any reason. If you change those things to rules of grammar so that your "natural self" is identified as the owner, then you have more rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:17 PM

Natural person

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:17 PM

What a screaming rasher of horse-pucky.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:20 PM

Do you mind if I say that in my opinion you are FULL OF IT?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:22 PM

Yet another natural person.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:26 PM

You people are a trip. Those are legal definitions. I didn't make them up. lol. I love breaking this news to people. They either recoil or react. Most recoil.

Each year, when you sign your income tax statement, you are proclaiming that you are vouching for YOUR CORPORATE SELF. And as collateral, you are putting up your body (imprisonment is threatened).

It is astounding how loudly people rail against the obvious. The top of the property deed I'm looking at right now says I don't have to volunteer my Social Security # or my driver's license number if I'm a "natural person." lol. They put it at the top of the page, the header, and the people in the tax district honestly don't see it. It's like it just suddenly comes into view for the first time each year when I point it out.

You chattel. moo. lol

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:46 PM

Let's get right to the point here

.


.


.

.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 09:50 PM

You make me feel like a natural person ... oooh ... etc

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 10:04 PM

The Canadian Income Tax Act, section 2(1) states " An income tax shall be paid, as required by this Act, on the taxable income for each taxation year of every person resident in Canada at any time in the year ". We are unable to find who shall pay the tax. Section 248 further defines person as being the corporation JOHN SMITH or anybody who acts as a "receiver" for JOHN SMITH. Therefore if the natural-person John Smith receives money for the corporation JOHN SMITH, he must declare that money as taxable income for JOHN SMITH. Such is the case with the Employee JOHN SMITH and the worker John Smith that is receiving money for the Employee. However when John Smith receives money for himself, such money is not necessarily taxable.

http://www.natural-person.ca/incometax.html

The above outlines the issue succinctly.

A tip. The next time you are asked to sign something AND print your name, print following the rules of grammar. Upper case first letter, lower case the rest. That way, the printed name won't match what's on your government indenture documents. Throws a legal wrench into their claim over you.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 10:05 PM

the True Natural Man with all the answers can be found here (scroll down)

& of course, there's only one Natural Woman


freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 10:36 PM

"...Therefore if the natural-person John Smith receives money for the corporation JOHN SMITH, he must declare that money as taxable income for JOHN SMITH...."

That's the crux of the issue. You are born a natural person. The government tricks you into creating a third-party corporation (by changing your name on paperwork to ALL CAPS), so then, any money you earn on your job is technically being earned by the corporation with YOUR NAME. As corporate income, it is taxable. The U.S. tax code of 1909 made this distinction, too, and that's why Americans have been turned into one-person corporations, because the govt can only tax corporations and businesses. See how simple it is?

This is all laid out in an excellent film called "America: Freedom to Fascism" by Aaron Russo.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 10:53 PM

I think this is is bushwah. The legal entitiy of an individual is not a corporation under any law. To the contrary, a corporation is something to which SOME attributes of a person have been assigned. The reverse is not the case.

If you assert that this IS the case, please cite the actual law so mandating.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:13 PM

Nov schmoz ka pop?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:26 PM

Nov shmoz ka pop

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:34 PM

This is a bunch of hooey by someone who has completely reversed the way things work.

The corporation has been granted "personhood" but it isn't so the government can take advantage of it--to the contrary, it is an umbrella so the individual people (stockholders, owners, managers) who own or otherwise invest in it can avoid any of the civil liability for the actions of the company. The Corporation is a protection against such things as individuals going to prison for chemical spills in poor communities, or individuals going to prison for not making sure a mine is safe or so individuals who own the company don't go to prison if their building burns down and their employees all die. Or if their product kills the people who bought or used it. And most commonly, it is a way individuals protect their personal assets from governmental seisure--the person of the Corporation stands between people and civil and criminal authority.

Only humans can grant rights, and it is an ongoing argument around the world as to just who and what have rights. Adult, coherent humans and corporations are about it. Children and animals have representatives who speak for them. People are continually trying to assign rights to trees, rocks, whales, dolphins, cats and dogs, etc. It is the opinion of Gene Hargrove, the environmental philosopher who has written a great deal about animal rights and environmental ethics that a few animals--chimapanzees, gorillas, whales and dolphins (mainly just these, but he may have mentioned a couple of others the last time I heard him lecture) might be suitable to have limited rights. To have standing.

Upper and lower case is nonsense--the "natural person" designation simply appears to be a way to distinguish between people who act for the corporation but who can be held liable for their acts (the auditors, for example) versus those who are protected (in most cases) by their role within the corporation. Example.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST,Natural Guest
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:39 PM

Lots of laws and rulings thrown around at the links below:

...the Supreme Court clearly states that all income taxes are on corporations, as set forth in the Corporation Tax Act of 1909, not on people....

http://www.angelfire.com/az/sthurston/person.html

"Income" is legally defined as a corporate gain of profit in the Internal Revenue Code. Nowhere is there any different definition.

Anytime the Internal Revenue Code mentions the word "income" it is talking about corporate income.

http://usa-the-republic.com/revenue/true_history/Chap4.html

(So once again I come back to the fact that you have to be turned into a CORPORATION in order to be taxed. And they do that by simply capitalizing the letters in your name and then have you sign off on it).

Do you know which law requires you to file an income tax form? Is the Federal Reserve System a part of the federal government or a privately owned bank?

Ask most Americans to name the law that mandates the filing of income tax forms and they'll tell you they can't – but they're sure it's in there someplace.

As award-winning film producer Aaron Russo ("The Rose," "Trading Places") claims in this blockbuster of a film, it's not. "There is no law," Russo insisted to NewsMax.com....

...CBS critic Todd David Schwartz called the film "The scariest damn film you'll see this year. It will leave you staggering out of the theater, slack-jawed and trembling. Makes 'Fahrenheit 9/11' look like 'Bambi.' After watching this movie, your comfy, secure notions about America – and about what it means to be an American – will be forever shattered."

Russo and his colleagues at Cinema Libre Studio, Schwartz said, "deserve to be heralded as heroes of a post-modern New American Revolution. This is shocking stuff. You'll be angry, you'll be disgusted, but you may actually break out in a cold sweat and feel a sickness deep in your gut; I would advise movie theatre managers to hand out vomit bags. You may end up needing one."

http://newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/8/8/180328.shtml?s=lh

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:43 PM

Partly, Sage. The corporate umbrella has been presented as a good thing that does all you describe, but it is also an abusive thing. If you pay income tax or social security, you are a corporation. You, by yourself, alone, not part of ANY group. Look at the name on your social security card. ALL CAPS. Doesn't match the name on your birth certificate. In a court of law, that makes you (yourself, as an individual with inalienable rights), a distinct entity from your CORPORATE SELF.

Slickest and simplest scam ever pulled on America. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:49 PM

See how easy? Isn't it NICE how simple life can be? Who'da guessed.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:52 PM

Whether CAPS or not, etc. there is an interview of Aaron Russo, who made the docu. I have NOT listened to the whole thing, yet, but plan to.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:55 PM

So when you say that corporations
Are waging war in Iraq
And you point your finger at Cheney
Three fingers will point back

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Dec 06 - 11:59 PM

Russo's actual website with all kinds of links, video, and info on the film. I'd feel better about it all if he cited his sources, but presumably he does so in the "docu."

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: number 6
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:00 AM

Where does a numbered person fit into all of this?

sIx

no it's biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 12:20 AM

No problem, biLL. Unless they are capitalized.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:17 AM

I think you're probably technically correct about this, Guest. The main thing protecting people (still) is simply the weight of past tradition and social custom rather than the laws. The laws have been cleverly arranged by lawyers to represent the great ruling powers that be, not the people. The powers that be, being: the richest people and the organizations that control money and military/police firepower.

What primarily protects us from an open dictatorship is simply the face that it would not meet people's expectations of normality, and they'd get VERY upset! ;-) That would be damn difficult to enforce. It would require very large security forces.

What the powers that be do instead is: they drug people from cradle to grave with empty entertainment, mostly unneeded consumer goods, phony news that is a combination of more entertainment plus lots of government propaganda, lots of sex stuff (in the entertainment)...and finally, just plain old drugs (both legal and illegal)...while simultaneously robbing them blind in such a way that they mostly don't even notice it...though they do feel vaguely trapped, and may join the hordes of people seeking pschological counseling and MORE drugs to dull the anxiety symptoms.

But, hey, if a monkey in a cage is convinced he's free...than as far as he's concerned, anyone who says he isn't free is a nutcase. The monkey is so used to the cage that he just doesn't even realize it's there. The cage has become his only reality, and he would probably get very upset if it was suddenly removed, and demand "protection" from the zookeeper. ;-) Real freedom would look far too scary to deal with.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:41 AM

The web citations so far are entirely iffy. Anglefire, for example, sends red flags for me. This is lunatic fringe stuff, an ass-backwards interpretation of law and individual rights. This capital letter versus lower-case stuff is nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:06 AM

When it comes to the IRS and determining tax liability, the one thing that has gotten everybody all twisted up is this idea of self-assessment and voluntary compliance. Those are ideas that the IRS has been indoctrinating us with our whole lives. Mr. McLeod said that when you self-assess yourself and voluntarily comply with the Internal Revenue Code (IRC), you effectively become IRS agent against yourself. More specifically, you become an agent against your "strawman", which is an entity bearing your name spelled in all capital letters.

http://www.wealth4freedom.com/truth/2/IRSfraud.htm

Have you ever wondered why all legal documents such as your driver license, credit cards, utility bills and other legal and business documents depict your name in all capital letters?

"In order to rightly comprehend a thing, inquire first into the names, for rightful knowledge of things depends upon their names."

You have been deceived and betrayed! Suffice it to say that you have been swindled, out of nothing less valuable, than your birthright and your sovereignty... simply through the largely overlooked, corruption of your name.

http://www.worldnewsstand.net/law/U-Inc.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Slag
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:13 AM

Good shot LH! This is Troll chum. Semantics. Legal verbage that attemps to cover all the bases. A GROUP that acts as an individual is taxed and treated as an individual for most legal purposes. This way it makes them liable and obedient to the laws of the land. One huge difference is that a business corporations NEVER pay taxes. Oh, they are taxed but that tax is always passed along to the consumer. Businesses (Inc., Corp., or Ltd.) operate on a profit margin and said margin is always maintained or the business goes under and the corporation either declares bankruptcy or is dissolved (or both).

When an individual is treated as a corporate entity just remember where the word "corporate" stems from: corpus, i.e. a body, in this case your individual body.

Stilly, some rights are self-evident, granted by our Creator, including but not limited to, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Indeed, other rights are granted, bought or sold and may be temporary in nature, as well as transferable or not. And then there are priviliges and licenses but that gets pretty far afield. Only the natural RIGHTS exist without Manmade laws. Sometimes these are called the Law of the Jungle. You have the right to Life and the right to defend your existence and this is true from the virus and microbe, plant or animal, all the way up to the Human animal. For the more refined and extrapolated rights you must have a CORPORATE entity, a government to secure those rights. And tax its members.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:25 AM

This is the piece I'll print out to take to the tax office. They know me and refer me to the new kid to singe his or her eyebrows. Yeah, this article has it all:

When your true name, written in accordance with the rules of English grammar and the prescriptions of law, is corrupted into an all-capital-letters format, a mutant straw man is created. The new all-caps name is a legal entity (corporate/corporately colored) distinct from you, and is the only type of "person" with whom government, courts, tax agencies/agents, courts, banks, etc. will, in fact, can do business.

Consider the fact that when some corporate/governmental entity is coming after you for payment you will never see your true name listed as the account holder (initial letters only capitalized) in the caption of their legal briefs, only the TRADE NAME of your straw man. Why? This is the only way they can do business-and that is exactly and only what it is; business.

http://www.worldnewsstand.net/law/U-Inc.htm

I suggest reading this whole article. It's a good one. This is why I insist deeds follow rules of grammar, by the way. Let them harass my CORPORATE SELF all they want, they can't touch my personal property. Or so I've been told.

Slag's post confuses me. Are you saying that we must pay taxes (as corporations) to have what our constitution calls God-given rights? Governments are abusive, not protective, by and large, and that's why the founders protected us from invasive govt with a severely limiting constitution. Maybe I missed something. I'll pick it up again tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Slag
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:55 AM

In winter, the lone wolf dies. Like it or not, we exist only as a corporate entity (s) and we derive our rights and priviliges from that entity. Jesus made a remarkable observation when he was challenged as whether it was lawful to pay Roman taxes. He asked who's image and superscription was on the coin. It was Ceaser's. I will ask you the same question. If your a Brit it is the Queen's image. In the US it is Washington or one of the other representatives of heads-of-state. Additional images are the Whitehouse, the Capitol, the Treasury Building, etc. You will also note that the currency claims no backing. It is a Fedral Reserve Note. I imagine it is something similar in GB. That is, it is "fiat money": money, because the government says its money! Furthermore the government claims sole right to print or coin the money and it, and only it, is "legal tender for all debts, both public and private." They own the money! And you rent your property from them too (i.e. "property tax" [just try not paying THAT and see what happens]). You owe military service to the Corporation. That means your ass is theirs if they so declare it.

You are a child of the State and that is that. Protest all you want. Don't pay your taxes and see what you get. It doesn't matter whether they call you a corporation or JOE SCHMUCK, they will get it from you in the end, no matter what they have to do to get it. And as far as your personal property goes, Ha Ha Ha!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 03:29 AM

No, Guest 11:55. One finger will point back.

Was it Johnson who didn't trust corporations, because they had neither a body to kick nor a soul to damn?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:41 AM

If this were addressing English law I could safely say it was a load of gibberish.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:56 AM

For myself. Alone Again Naturally.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:31 AM

Fine, Slag. Yes it's a fiat system, but it's the WAY the govt gets you to turn the money back over to them that I'm addressing. Taxes are fine, but to deceive people like that   Seems you've never heard of this. You should look into it further. You've been deceived into turning yourself into a corporation and becoming your own enforcer. A clever system. Hey, maybe it's even diabolical.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 09:57 AM

Waht all this is about?

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:07 PM

In the days when web servers were still fairly new, I was involved in trying to set up a web-based interface to something which had a database behind it. The licencing for that got us into a legal debate that lasted over 18 months trying to define who was a user. The database provider wanted to consider every "natural user" of the system as a separate person, so each person would need separate licence costing a few hundred points each. Given anyone in the world could potentially use it, that would have been a tidy sum!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:16 PM

It would require a very large group of people to agree NOT to cooperate in order to change the $ySStem as it exists now. How is that going to occur when most of them believe they already have "freedom"?

I have always been puzzled and intrigued by the way my name and everyone else's is spelled all in capitals on official documents, credit cards, etc. I thought it was really weird, because it's not difficult to print a name properly....with capitals only on the leading letters...therefore why the hell would they not print it properly?

Therefore, I think Guest is right and they are covering their legal asses cleverly so that if people don't cooperate, they've got them exactly where they want them: under control. And the very few who don't cooperate can easily be dealt with by the powers that be.

I've done some reading about this stuff before elsewhere, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:26 PM

What this is about is the definition of "taxpayer." Many people argue that the U.S. constitution and court rulings prohibit the taxation of people. Only corporations can be taxed. The govt says that's BS, but to cover themselves anyway they developed a system where they turn every citizen into a one-person "corporation." They do it by capitalizing YOUR NAME. When you sign off on the paperwork (income tax form, social security paperwork, etc.) you agree to act as the representative of the new corporation with YOUR NAME attached to it. And if you think this is a petty distinction that doesn't make a difference in court, do some research. It does.

Anyway, I make sure nowadays that everything I buy has "My Name" on it, not "MY NAME." I make sure the name on the title or deed matches what's on my birth certificate (capitalized first letters of names, lowercase the rest of the letters). It's a minor point, but technically, if the I.R.S. ever tries to seize my property, I'll let them go through the motions, then at the last minute I'll point out my name on their paperwork is in ALL CAPS, but the name on the deeds and titles follow the rules of grammar. Since I agreed to the income tax stuff for the corporation with MY NAME IN ALL CAPS, the property with my name following the rules of grammar is not subject to seizure. At which point they'll just shoot me.

It's just a precaution, and if you've read these posts and linked articles and it still doesn't make sense, then it may never make sense. But I take it seriously and go in to my tax district (rural, small) each year and point out they need to tax Me and not ME, because My Name is on the deed, not MY NAME. They understand what I'm talking about by now, and they're all taking steps to transfer their property into their birth certificate names. They still look forward to the lecture though.

As far as the United Kingdom, I heard an interview years ago with a man who was talking about this issue over there. Seems the U.K. has been doing this longer than the U.S. I think you have an "Inland Revenue" service over there, and it's called that to differentiate it from the maritime legal system. You Brits might want to look into it. Probably the same scam. I bet you're each an individual "corporation" for tax purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:39 PM

Guest,

I am afraid you are sadly beguiled. A letter represents the same concept and the same phoneme grammatically whether capitalized or not. Capitalization is a convention of typography, not semantics. This whole notion that it is a different name, or a corporation, when printed in all caps, is just silly.

On my driver's license my address, gender eye color, height and (past) weight are all printed in capitals, too. Which among these things is "a corporation" according to your mystic version of the law?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:43 PM

Yeah, Little Hawk, they're covering themselves. The govts. In the U.S. at least it's pretty clear individuals can't be taxed unless they agree to it, so that's why we hear the term "voluntary tax" so often. You have to agree to it, and one way you agree is to become the overseer of your mutated name. They change your name to ALL CAPS and when you sign the agreement that that new entity owes X amount, you become responsible for enforcing the tax laws on yourself. And if the govt is ever backed into a corner on this, it'll point out that we agreed to it, it was all voluntary, we signed off on it.

Like I said, if I could make people aware of one thing (even moreso and bigger than 9-11), it would be this scam. A govt that would do this would do anything, including terrorizing its citizens with bombs. Unfortunately there's a hundred years of snafu court rulings on this tax thing, and people WANT to believe big brother, so there's slim chance of making much of a difference. Think of the outcry though if everyone, all at once, realized they don't and never had to pay taxes...they were duped into it.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:49 PM

Driver's licenses... In the U.S., that's a CDL, commercial driver's license...standard issue for the person on the street. Are you involved in commerce when you drive, Amos? 99 out of 100 drivers would answer no, probably, so why do you need a commercial driver's license? Technically, it's because you're driving around your corporate self. Or rather, your corporate self is driving the vehicle. See, all the paperwork is rigged to reinforce this self-corporatism...that's why all the important documents have your name in ALL CAPS. Every time you renew your license, file a tax form, etc., you are re-affirming that you are acting on behalf of your corporate self.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 01:56 PM

Oh, and the capitalizing of everything on the license, Amos, is camoflague (sp?). If everything on the license is capped, you won't think twice about your name being capped.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:52 PM

Heaven forbid that I should self-assess myself.

" ... some rights are self-evident, granted by our Creator, including but not limited to, Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Indeed, other rights are granted, bought or sold and may be temporary in nature, as well as transferable or not. And then there are priviliges and licenses but that gets pretty far afield. Only the natural RIGHTS exist without Manmade laws." Slag

Since the time that Thomas Jefferson came up with that line, that interpretation, people have been agog at its simplicity, its pithiness. However agreement with it is NOT universal; not all people or governments agree with the thought.

Driver's licenses... In the U.S., that's a CDL, commercial driver's license...standard issue for the person on the street. Are you involved in commerce when you drive, Amos? 99 out of 100 drivers would answer no, probably, so why do you need a commercial driver's license?"

Don, try presenting a normal Driver's License when you apply for a commercial hauling job. They will quickly inform you that you will first need the training to get the special CDL Quite a different thing from a driver's license.

I don't think this is a troll, as such. In my opinion, this is a fearful person who obsesses. I think he is bright- but not sensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: MMario
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 02:58 PM

I've never had a legal form of any kind where my name was in all caps. That includes my license.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: number 6
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 03:08 PM

My driver's licence recognizes me as a number ... come to think of it my tax return is also a number.

We are all numbered ... our name is meaningless.

biLL

no ... it's sIx

Hell .. it's 6

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM

I just checked. ALL my ID is in CAPS. ALL my credit cards are in CAPS. My Health Card is in CAPS. Everything is in CAPS.

Odd, isn't it? Specially when you consider that just about everything else that normally gets written anywhere is not done all in CAPS.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Slag
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:28 PM

Well, gee GUEST! I think you are really splitting hairs, but I like your attitude! Maybe I'll join the revolt (as started by e e cummings) and use ONLY small cased letters for the body (corporate or otherwise) of my name. Income tax itself is unconstitutional, at least it was until that darn XVI Amendment. If you own a business you become a tax collector for your given state, if they have state sales tax and you also collect any and all federal taxes too. Are you duly compensated for performing this work and the record keeping that goes with it? I think not.

re commercial driver's licenses: In CA that applies to pick-up trucks and certain vans, IF you haul anything other than non-paying passengers. Why? So they can take extra money from us, I guess. I have held a class 1 lic. in the past and it is a very different deal than a class 3 (or I guess it's "C" now). When they started restricting it by type of load and requiring a current medical exam, I let mine go as I hadn't driven a truck for a number of years.

Speaking of numbers the SSN was to never be used as an identification for anything other than Social Security. It could not be required by any other agency. That went by the boards in a hurry. Truly, you could not buy or sell except that you had the number (or the Mark) in your hand. The military did away with the old ID #s and used your SSN with some two letter designator in front of it, the pretense being that it was NOT your SSN. They finally did away with the pretense ( I think). The VA still uses the SSN or some form of it.

With the advent of identity theft there is a swing away from having to produce your SSN for everything, or rather, the powers that be (that is, the NUMBER KEEPERS) are becoming more cryptic about hiding your SSN and other numbers which are tagged to it. The use of identification numbers is so open to abuse and oppression by governments that it truly is frightening. Its a question of control and power.

And that is the name of the GAME. And look at the buggers who seek the highest offices in the land(s). What a sorry lot! Either party. "Our LIAR is better than your LIAR" Some choice. Talk about welfare. We put these "Bottom Feeders" at the top of the power structure.

As I said before, You ARE a Child of the State. You don't last long in this cold cruel world without the protections of the State and many times you don't last long protecting the State. Me? I'm praying for the Second Coming! It has to be better than this Byzantine quagmire we're all subjected to today.

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 04:43 PM

I think I'd agree with SRS - a bunch of hooey. I expected to find Urban Legend information about this at snopes.com, but Snopes failed me this time.
-JOE OFFER-
-joe offer-
-Joe Offer, Inc.-
-Joe Offer®-

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Slag
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:03 PM

Yup, Joe, Hooey!

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:06 PM

What a crock of shit! As a matter of fact, lemmee give it a blast from the past it really needs!

BBBBRRRRAAAAWWWWMMMMPPPP

Did a search, didn't find this topic anywhere on the forums:

"In jurisprudence, a natural person is a human being perceptible through the senses and subject to physical laws, as opposed to an artificial person, i.e., an organization that the law treats for some purposes as if it were a person distinct from its members or owner."

The above is the Wikipedia definition of "natural person". The below helps clarify the definition. It speaks of Canada but also applies to the U.S.:

One of the ways Governments and other regulators have tricked you into thinking you must follow their rules, is to create for themselves an "artificial-person / corporation" who is not you, but whom the Government has fooled you into thinking is you (See Natural vs. Artificial). But, so as not to violate your fundamental rights, they also have provide recognition in law for another legal entity called a "natural-person" (simply meaning a human-being in the law) with which most of your fundamental rights are still intact. So when you interact with the law, you may be represented as an artificial or natural person - you choose.

http://www.natural-person.ca/

In order to implement slavery of it's citizens and control them according to its whim, the Government had to invent a system that would not violate a human-being's fundamental rights, but would allow the Government to "own" everything produced or gained by its citizens.

The technique used by the Government was to create an artificial-person (referred to herein as a CORPORATION for emphasis) for every human-being in Canada. As creator of a CORPORATION, the Government can demand anything it wants from the CORPORATION. As a legal entity, a CORPORATION does not have feelings and cannot be hurt. It can be subject to slavery and complete domination by its creator and the CORPORATION must obey its creator.

So for every John Doe human-being in Canada, the Government created a JOHN DOE CORPORATION. Capital letters are used to represent CORPORATIONS and COMPANIES. Lower case letters are used to represent the name of the natural-person. See Capitalization.

http://www.natural-person.ca/artificial.html

Just type "natural person" into a search engine for thousands of enlightening articles on this topic. Basically, the govt turns you into a corporation by monkeying with the rules of grammar. Your birth certificate probably follows the rules of grammar...capital first letters, other letters lower case. But then the govt starts issuing you paperwork with ALL CAPS. Your social security card, for example. You're asked to check it for spelling. You think your name is spelled correctly and sign off on it. At that point, you have created a legal corporation with YOUR NAME in all caps. It's called a "straw man." The U.S. govt cannot do business with individuals...only other govts and corporations. So, to cheat and abuse you, they turn you into a third-party, or a "straw man" corporation.

If I could make everyone in the U.S. and Canada aware of one bit of information, it would be this bit. This trickery is the basis of all illegal taxes. Also, it makes you the actual, physical property of the govt.

I'm researching this for some tax payments coming up. I have to print out the articles yearly, to amaze and stupefy the bureaucrats demanding money from me. They are totally unaware of this stuff. Even their software is set to print my name in ALL CAPS by default, and that's why I have to go in each year and speak to them, to have them manually override and type my name according to the rules of grammar. I point out the name on the deeds follows the rules of grammar (Cap the first letter, lowercase the rest), and if they want my taxes they need to correct their paperwork.

Check your deeds and titles. If your name is in ALL CAPS, then your "corporate self" owns the property, and it can be seized at any time for any reason. If you change those things to rules of grammar so that your "natural self" is identified as the owner, then you have more rights.

There ya' go......I took your entire post and made it all brown..................Now go fuck off.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Are you a 'natural person'?
From: Slag
Date: 22 Dec 06 - 05:13 PM

Spaw, er, I mean SPAW for pRESIDENT!