Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)

Subject: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Ernest
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 12:01 PM

Since we seem to have birthday threads for almost everyone here now....

Halleluja (and merry Christmas for everyone!)

Ernest

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 12:33 PM

Apparently not:
http://www.truechristian.org/are_you_a_t_c/christmas.htm

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM

Well then why not the 25th?

JC, buddy! Have as good a day as you can.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Rasener
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 01:38 PM

Which only helps to prove that its all a load of bunkem..

Is Christmas an excuse for companies to sell all their stock before the New Year and for banks to get stuck into offering loans to all the poor people who have over spent.
Is it a way of trying to make people happy in the middle of Winter (UK) just to help us make it to summer.

How do I tell my children.

Maybe Father Christmas is real after all.


Happy Christmas one and all

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:17 PM

I think it's fairly well proven that Jesus was born in the Spring of the year, not anywhere near around Christmas. The Romans moved his "birth date" to late December so that it would coincide with already existing major religious festivals in pre-Christian religions.

If you want to pretend he was born at Christmas, though, and it makes you feel good...well, I can't see any great harm in that.

But keep in mind that the primary use of the occasion is to sell consumer goods to hordes of harried shoppers.   $$$$$$

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: kendall
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:21 PM

In the Christian belief system his birth date is of no importance. His resurrection is.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:26 PM

Yes, that's sort of what I was thinking when I said "I can't see any great harm in that".

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:27 PM

No importance in the Virgin birth??? I don't know about that Kendall.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: GUEST,Gza
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:30 PM

He wasn't talking about the "virgin birth", he was talking about the date.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 03:31 PM

I suppose you're right, Kendall - but Christmas gets better music (it's just that I'm tired of having practiced new choir pieces since September).
Merry Christmas!
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: jeffp
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM

December 25th is just the date of the birthday party. They very seldom are held on the actual birthday even with us lesser folks.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 09:13 PM

Happy Birthday Jesus!!!

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: number 6
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 10:24 PM

Yup .... Happy Birthday to the Big Guy's Son.

Hey JC it's your day ... Hell everyday is your day!!

biLL

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 12:33 PM

Happy B-Day and take a big breath, Jesus. You've got a f__k of a lotta candles to blow out.

Then after all the hoopla, if you got the time, I'd like to sit down with you over a glass or two and you can straighten me out on a few things you might've said that have gotten messed up over the years.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 01:10 PM

no one really knows when Christ was born.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 01:12 PM

Yeshua Bar Joshua was probably born around Jan 7th - our calendar - he was Jewish. Often confused with Ha Zeus and Mithras legends which celebrated the midwinter with merry festivals celebrating the birth of the new year, which eventually evolved into the 'son of gods' (myth old Geek legend reporting child born of human and god/s)born precisely at midwinter. Thus combining two pagan practices, midwinter and the gods making a human pregnant.

The Jewish Yeshua Bar J, Rabbai and terrorist ( similar to todays Osama Been Bomin yous westerners ) was executed by the Romans in 33 AD, RIP. Thhe poor fellow so offended the authorities that the Jewish puppet state under Rome banned the use of his real name for ever. It worked too, widely named Ja Zeus and other corruptions of the old Greeko-Roman god's name ( Zeus ).

So instead of remembering the dead Rabbai as really the Messiah, folks have been blapheming the Holy Name whilst driving the name of the real chap further into hell for his percieved offences against the Law.

Truely a Merry time when the Yule Log burns... lol OTOH having some compassion for the poor long dead person perhaps we should do the Christian thing a pray for his soul.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Cruiser
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 02:10 PM

_____________________________________________________________________

Jesus!...another birthday thread...Christ!



I AM surprised Shambles did not start this thread.




sorefingers, your thread was humorus...worth the thread title.

___________________________________________________________________

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 03:25 PM

It seems that this may have started something of a tradition. After all, the head of the Anglican Church was born in April, but has her official birthday in June.

CHEERS
Nigel
(And Merry Christmas to anyone 4 hours ahead of UK time!)

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Slag
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 05:09 PM

Yashua (Jesus) son of Mary and ostensibly Joseph was by scholarly concensus born sometime around October. The date is really unimportant. There was almost certainly a design by making it supercede Saturnalia and Bacchanalia celebrations, solstice and New Year. And why not? It's as good as time as any. Seems everyone is celebrating something around this time.

Jesus Christ (XPISTOS, the "Annointed One") was "born" at his baptism which was performed by John, the Baptist (we Baptists go way back, don't we?[LOL]) when the voice of Yahweh came from Heaven, declaring "This is My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased". Compare this with the prophetic verses quoted by the writer of the Acts of the Apostles Chapter 13, verse 33 of the 2nd Psalm verses 6 and 7 "Yea have I set my King upon my holy hill of Zion, I will declare the decree: Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

So you might just as well suggest that the date of His baptism was the date of His birth.

More theologically profound is the idea that Jesus was with God from the beginning when God said let US make man in OUR image. Jesus declare to the Jewish leaders that He was before Abraham, i.e., He said before Abraham was, I AM. What He said and what the Pharisees understood was that He applied the literal Name of God (YAHWEH)which means "I am" to Himself. He declared Himself to be their God. Not believing Him, the sought to stone Him to death for the sin of blasphemy, taking the very Name of God in vain ( John, chapter 8, esp. vss 58,59)

Well, unless you worship Santa Claus or Bacchus (Jim?) or Saturn, Jesus is the reason for the Season. It is a matter of faith and revelation. You can't find Him unless you seek Him and you can't seek Him unless He draws you. The Good News (which is what the word Gospel means) is that His Word has declared that He is not willing that anyone should perish but that all should come to repentance. He said that if He be lifted up (on the cross) that He would draw all Mankind to Himself. But he still leaves room in your hearts for free will. The choice is yours. The doubts will never succumb to Human reason. If we could reason our way to God no one would be saved. It remains a simple matter of faith, available to all.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 05:10 PM

Think thoroughbred horses.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Dec 06 - 05:31 PM

As a person with an actual Degree in Theology, I have this to say about when Jesus was born: I dunno....but I certainly enjoy celebrating Christmas.

But let's talk about Bacchus. I think his 'spirit'uality is far too focused on wine, and I wish he would give fair treatment to Beer and Scotch. If so, I'd be glad to celebrate his birthday, too.

Merry Bacchanalia.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: GUEST,sorefingeres
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 01:31 AM

Other odd Pagan practices remained within the cult that followed the death of Yeshua Bar J. One, today much in the news, is Paedophilia and OC the other great diversion of ancient religion, Homosexuality.

Bishops, Piests, Parsons and even lowchurch Preachers sometimes measure their success by secret standards, which we read about in the papers once in a while.

A Mr. Jones having jumped hundreds of his female followers on failing, withering etc., brainwashed all, including the hundreds of children he had fathered, to comit suicide, which all of these poor fools then did.

Did I say brainwashing?

I did.

Well the same could be said of the 4 Jews who wrote the N.T. and the extent of the madness can be seen in the writings of those whose writings are not included in that book, Thomas, Judas etc. Except there the insanity is in plain sight and not hidden in scholastic humbug.


And so, what were the real 'sins' of Jeshua Bar J.? Did he rape somebody? Did he assault a male minor?

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: gnu
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:58 AM

Gosh. Very interesting reading.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 10:56 AM

Not too fussed about either the theology or the history. It seems some basicallly good guy was born and later topped around the turn of the first century. However, I get a chance to visit family, hear from old friends and possibly pass on a bit of kindness if I can. It seems to bring out the best in a whole lot of folks. So Merry Christmas to all of you!

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 01:49 PM

In case Shag thinks he know it all here is some real Greek

Ένας για όλους και όλους για έναν

Never a dull moment on Mudcat!

Merry Chris mas ho ho ho ho ho

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 02:23 PM

Much of the "history" of the cross and the crucifixion and such comes from Phrygia, in the earlier worship of Attis and Cybele. Every year a pig or beef was symbolically slaughtered at the base of a pine tree, there was also priestly self-flagellation. Lots of tree/post worship and symbolism there.

Mary is pretty clearly the appropriation of some aspects of Diana (of Nemi) but while this was happening Diana herself was vilified by christians. So in some sects of christianity Mary is still much more important (those who didn't buy into the evil-Diana story and were willing to convert many of her attributes over to Mary).

Gets pretty confusing. The only troubling aspects of all of this that I would point out are the folks who can't take a long view of the importance of ritual and ceremony and celebration, who take the Bible literally and insist that everyone else do the same. If there was ever a box of mixed jigsaw puzzle pieces, the Bible is it.

SRS

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 02:24 PM

What point are you trying to make, sorefingers?

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM

Nothing against old Yeshua, but he's NOT the "reason for the season", two-bit rhymes notwithstanding. The season's the reason for the season. Have a merry one.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 04:49 PM

The reason for festivals at this time of year, and they existed LONG before Christianity, was simply this: The celebration of the winter solstice.

"The Winter Solstice Celebration, Midwinter Festival or Winter Solstice Festival occures in many cultures. The astronomical event of the winter solstice, occurring around December 21 or 22 each year in the northern hemisphere, and June 21 or 22 in the Southern Hemisphere, is the shortest day of the year. The winter solstice can be, but is usually not, also the darkest night of the year, which takes into account the full moon. In antiquity, the winter solstice was immensely important because communities were not assured to live through the winter, and had to be prepared during the previous nine months. Starvation was common in winter between January to April, also known as "the famine months." The winter solstice festival was the last feast celebration, if it could be managed, before deep winter began. Many cultures celebrate or celebrated a holiday near (within a few days) the winter solstice; examples of these include Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and HumanLight. The first civilization to celebrate the winter solstice were the Ancient Persians, deriving from their Zoroastrian religion. The following is a list of Winter Solstice Celebrations and Festivals.

The Christian church simply conveniently decided to relocate Jesus' birthday to coincide neatly with the ancient traditional solstice celebrations...adding 3 days after the actual solstice (on Dec 22)...which no doubt was meant to symbolize the three days of Jesus' body lying in the tomb...and then on the 25th, he rises.

Jesus was spoken of as "the Son of God" and "the Light of the world". The sun IS the light of the world, and its return after the longest night of the year is analogous to the action of a Saviour of all life on this planet.

These parallels are not coincidental. The Christian religion was building upon a very strong pre-Christian foundation when it decided to name the solstice festival after Jesus Christ.

And then you've got the German Saint Nicholas thing coming in as well, which is another whole story all its own. ;-)

The thing is, whether Christianity ceased to exist or not would make NO difference whatsoever to the fact that people would STILL be very likely to have a seasonal festival at the time of the Winter Solstice.

So it is not, ultimately, a Christian issue, nor is it a festival which you can blame exclusively on Christianity if being anti-Christian is a cause that is dear to you for some reason. ;-)

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Peace
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 04:55 PM

People will do the damnedest things for no reason at all. When they adopt a reason for the thing they do, they then proceed to argue it until it makes sense to them. From that point they begin to inflict it on the rest of humanity.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Peace
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:11 PM

People who are in awe of stuff like the solstice are also in awe that the sun rises frequently. Humanity used to rise when the sun did because there were no friggin' alarm clocks. They slept when it became dark because light was hard to come by. The rhythms of life were based on light and dark, dry or wet, warm or cold. Eventually people noticed a connection between what they'd been doing for millenia and what was happening around them. EUREKA! It's MAGICK! Let's have some rituals. Hell, if ya can't beat 'em with brains, baffle 'em with bullshit. The above is less to do with Jesus and more to do with all attempts to organize people's personal beliefs, whether those beliefs have now appeared as a theism, animism or whatever.


"In the year 274AD, solstice fell on 25th December, and Roman Emperor Aurelian proclaimed the date as "Natalis Solis Invicti," the festival of the birth of the invincible sun. In 320 AD, Pope Julius I specified the 25th of December as the official date of the birth of Jesus Christ. In 325AD, Constantine the Great, the first Christian Roman emperor, introduced Christmas as an immovable feast on 25 December. In 354AD, Bishop Liberius of Rome officially ordered his members to celebrate the birth of Jesus on 25 December."

"The most likely year that Jesus was born, is 6BC, probably in the month of March."

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:33 PM

Peace...I don't agree that people do things "for no reason at all". They always do things for a reason (when they first do them), it's just that it may not be a reason that makes sense to you, because you maybe weren't there and you don't know why they did it. ;-)

It is true that once a few generations of people have done anything then the ensuing generations tend to repeat it, not knowing why. Be assured, however, that the first generation that did it knew exactly why they were doing it.

There is nothing magical about the solstice, but it's real...and life on this planet is totally dependent upon the movements of the sun and the energy coming from the sun. For people to give that some serious recognition is natural. For them to personify it in the human form of a God-man is not surprising.

I think the ancient peoples were a bit quicker on the uptake than you give them credit for. They may not have had internal combustion engines and computers, but they were not stupid. ;-) Matter of fact, some of them were downright brilliant by the standards of any age, and to realize that one only needs to read the literature and observe the great works that their finest minds left behind.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Peace
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:37 PM

If the intelligence part is true, LH, explain religion.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Emma B
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:39 PM

It's not in "awe" of the Solstice - it's in rhythm with it and sorry LH it was usually personified as female the ultimate lifegiver!

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: GUEST,GS
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM

Wise came came to Jesus over 2000 years ago....and still do.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Peace
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:41 PM

Sorry to touch so many nerves. Religions, all of 'em, are bunk.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: bobad
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 05:46 PM

I would posit that the tendency of social groups to perform acts of ritual is a way of strengthening and maintaining the bonds of the group and that many of the traditional seasonal festivities endure as a result of selection.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Cluin
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 07:51 PM

Amen, Peace.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: number 6
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 09:51 PM

Peace ... I like your post at Date: 25 Dec 06 - 04:55 PM .. I agree, but I will add ... sometimes people will do the damnedest things for the sheer entertainment of it all ... much like the current popularity 'dinner theatres'.

All that effort applied in the construction of Stonehenge ... but the result was one mezmerizing back drop to one hell of show.

All the effort applied in the construction of the finest cathedrals ... but the magnificent result were back drops to some of the finest shows ever put forth.

biLL

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Peace
Date: 25 Dec 06 - 11:06 PM

I hear y'all. I hope Christians enjoyed their day, celebrated the birth of Christ--maybe a bit intermingled with Santa Claus--and had a wonderful time with their families.

I still don't like organized religions of any sort, but that's my axe and maybe this wasn't the thread to grind it on.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:32 AM

Fine with me, Emma. ;-) I think of "God" as much as female-goddess aspect as I do of "God" as male aspect. How could it be otherwise? And yes, Nature in all its fruitfullness is definitely a feminine archetype in most cultures, as is the planet Earth (Terra), while the sun is more often seen as a male archetype. The sun is seen to fertilize the Earth, the Earth is seen to give birth to new life.

Peace - Both stupidity and intelligence are found with equal facility in religions...just depends which one you want to focus your attention on, that's all. People see what they look for, generally.

And by the way, the present status of money $$$$$$ in our culture IS a religion! Its shrines are banks, stock exchanges, and casinos. As religions go, it's probably the stupidest and most destructive one ever, and it has claimed the most human lives and destroyed the most species of life on this planet.

All for a fictitious concept that is actually worth absolute zero...because it's not real. It's a synthetic made-up idea, created entirely by human beings out of nothing, and unlike most other religions it's an idea devoid of any higher philosophical ideals that might improve people if they applied them. It's the crudest and most vicious religion of all time, and it runs everything in this entire society. People kill other people for it every day.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Peace
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:42 AM

Makes ya wonder why religions want so much money, huh?

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:54 AM

All part of one big game, Peace. ;-) The power game. He who has the most money controls everything, because he can hire the most muscle to enforce his will upon others. It was the same in ancient Rome and Babylon. There have only been a few civilizations where money didn't rule, and they were usually nomadic or hunter-gatherer groups...or relatively simple and unsophisticated societies, in other words.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Peace
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:56 AM

Yep. That's it in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:04 AM

Well, I dunno. We had a good time and lots of wonderful music and decorations, and sang carols for sick people all over town, and spent a good deal of money and effort on a big dinner and overnight lodging for the homeless and lots of other good stuff at church this weekend. We delayed all the burnings at the stake until after the first of the year; so all you people who worry so much about the harm done by religion, can take the week off.


-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:05 AM

So really, all you can hope for in a money-dominated society is that the richest people don't turn out to be psychotic, anti-social bastards....

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:19 AM

Wasn't religion did all that, Joe. `Twas good people.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: Jim McLean
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:11 AM

The Sceptic
My Father Christmas passed away
When I was barely seven.
At twenty-one, alack-a-day,
I lost my hope of heaven.
Yet not in either lies the curse:
The hell of it's because
I don't know which loss hurt the worse —
My God or Santa Claus.
-Robert Service

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: GUEST,GS
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:31 AM

I guess those who are dead against religion have not 'experienced' anything to make them think other than what little knowledge they have gained from what they have heard. When you have a life changing experience it can help us focus on what is really important.
If I asked any of the sceptics what they did when they were at rock bottom in life---like did they pray---most of them will affirm that they did---so I ask them why did they pray? I rarely get a direct or truthful answer---why is that? I truly believe that will to pray when in 'rock bottom' situations is an instinct.
I am a Christian believer and get answers to prayer as are and do many others. You may not have experienced what I have but it does not make me some religious nut or foolish person. Maybe if you looked to have those experiences I have had then your life may also be changed for the better. We all make our own choices, however they are formed by our beliefs.

Subject: RE: Jesus Christ`s birthday (Dec. 24th)
From: number 6
Date: 26 Dec 06 - 07:57 AM

Your right on that one Cluin ..... you certainly don't need a religion or be religeous to be a good person or perform good deeds .... e.g. back in the Penetang/Midland region of Ontario the local Hell's Angel chapter does a large and very successful toy drive each Christmas.

biLL