BS: smoking in uk pubs

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 05:20 PM

You tend to find the type who smoked in bars gave us the best music

Basically I'd say that's bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 02:43 PM

You tend to find the type who smoked in bars gave us the best music and spent the most money. We are told it will make bars "family friendly" Translated means, kids running wild around the bar, smiling father may strecth to a swift half. Mum will have a tonic water and four salads for lunch. Let´s see the till rolls at the end of each month !

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 01:43 PM

I think Mr Happy has it right there - we could find ourselves with a bunch of extra places to drink and even make music. I've nothing against people smoking if it doesn't get up my nose excessively. Outdoors it keeps off the midges.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:57 AM

I have a serious blood problem that has probably been caused,so i have been told,by passive smoking.I have been performing in pubs and clubs for thirty years,so i personally cant wait until the filthy habit is kept away from me.From my experience,most smokers are inconsiderate gits.I dont mind you killing yourself in private,just dont take us with you.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 11:30 AM

Was at a session in Pontblyddyn, Wales a coupla weeks ago.

Coming from England [Chester], I'd forgotten about the no-smoke rule already operating in Cymru, but was most pleasantly surprised to see the splendid roofed pergola with picnic tables & floral arrangements set out on the patio just outside the lounge.

Still feeling the need for an occasional puff between tunes, I popped out to the facilities & met up with several other 'pariahs'.

Most pleasant experience to have unusual opportunity to banter with different folks.

If the English pubs adopt similar arrangements, the everyone should be happy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:49 AM

What will be interesting to watch is the use that will be made of these outside facilities, where provided.

I remember years ago, when trains had smokers' compartments, I climbed into one which was occupied by a family of four. I settled in and lit up, and the female went berserk. I was treated to a five minute torrent of abuse, and when I pointed out that the carriage was for smokers, she responded with more of the same, and went off to look for the guard (conductor in the USA).

He duly arrived on the scene, pointed at the smoking sign and said "Live with it, or move to a non smoker".

I predict some of that on warm summer evenings.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 10:31 AM

http://www.thesmokezone.co.uk/

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 09:19 AM

I'm sure if I wanted to smoke I'd be happy enough to pop out for a fag with my mates in the street outside and then back inside to carry on what I'd been doing before, rather than slope off to some strange place which had spent thousands on a plush outside area.

More often than not pubs already have pub gardens anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:19 AM

True, BMB, some die, some don't.

My grandmother smoked 50 a day for most of her life, and if it was responsible for her death, it took its bloody time. She was ninety six. But the figures do show that on balance it's not healthy.

As far as I'm concerned, it's up to the individual, whether or not to take the risk to his/her own life.

I have, for a number of years tried to ensure that I did not make that choice for others, by going outside to smoke, a fairly pointless exercise if you are one of twenty and the other nineteen don't join you, which is why I am strongly in favour of the ban. It ENSURES a clean atmosphere for those who do not want to smoke by proxy.

As I said earlier, I recently gave up smoking, so it's easy for me, but I was in favour of a ban long before I even considered quitting.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:18 AM

BruceMB, a medical biologist once explained this a little. There is always the possibility of some normal cells becoming cancerous, which means they start multiplying with no regard to proper function. These are the cells cancer treatments try to kill. With smoking, or any other cancer promoting substance, the chances of cells becoming cancerous rises. Some people are also more prone to having cells become cancerous (sometimes specific organs, thus genetic determinants in breast cancer, for example). Some people are less prone to having cells become cancerous, and you may add to that the luck of the draw: none of your grandfather's cells happened to become cancerous, due to good genes and the laws of chance.

As to the other deletorious effects of smoking, like respiratory ailments, they are real enough. I've seen a full-on asthma attack occur in a woman too polite to tell the visiting smoker in her own home to butt out.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 08:06 AM

GUESTantiqueerian, please go peddle your bigotry elsewhere.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:33 AM

I agree with George P. on this one, whilst agreeing that smoking is a dangerous pastime it always makes me wonder if the danger has been exaggerated by various health fascists who have an axe to grind?
Why is it some people die from smoking and others don't? my own grandfather lived to the age of 87 after smoking Woodbines for 70 years. (and I mean smoking! he used to stick one in his mouth, light it and let it burn down to within a 10mm of his lips and then light up another!) It seems to me that there are a lot more factors to be taken into consideration than we know of at the present.
...Now I've lit the blue touch paper I'll stand back and wait for the next health fascist rant from someone!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,antiqueerian
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:29 AM

They're banning smoking, because it can cause respiratory diseases and some find it offensive.

They've started the process of banning drinking, because it can lead to drunkenness and kidney failure.

But buggery, which can lead to AIDS and is abhorrent to anyone with an ounce of decency, is not only legal, but actively encouraged!

O tempora, o mores!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bee
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 07:20 AM

The smoke ban has not appeared to make much of a dent in the patronage of liquor serving establishments here. What did cause considerable die off of taverns was the changes made years ago in the drink/drive laws. When the province came down heavily on drinking and driving, thus saving a lot of lives, quite a few of the more rural taverns died from a lack of taxis and buses to haul patrons home.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Stu
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 04:50 AM

I'm looking forward to the ban.

I smoke the occassional cigar, and at my favourite session pub I like to sit on a bench outside to smoke, hear the sounds of the sessions coming from inside, and look across the fields towards the Peak District.

Bliss.

I don't pollute the air for my fellow man, the pub is a far more pleasant place to be in without the wreaths of cancer enhancer.

Bring on the ban!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 04:28 AM

"Some of the smoking area solutions are quite cheap at £4 - 6k"

"And others won't cost a single penny"

The people who don't spend a single penny will undoubtly lose custom (source: any brewery in the UK)
I for one don't want to castigate smokers I just wish they would do it outside and I think there is no reason why they shouldn't have a "comfortable" area OUTSIDE.

"What real effect?"
I have already been told there will be lay offs in my company so the "Real affect" is that I and others will lose our jobs. This of course may not matter to you but obviously it does to me.

The Gambling Commision have already published figures on the losses from gaming machines in Scotland since their ban. Again these don't outwiegh health risks, but I do believe it proves the point that money will need to be spent on smoking areas. These should not be within two meters of the entrance to the building (of course this doesn't count if no smoking area is provided)
I repeat my statement that I am FOR the ban (even though I may lose my job)

There is always two sides to everything and to ignore that would be blinkered.


PS sorry if this post arrives twice, I first posted about an hour ago, but it didn't appear.(perhaps some one might delete the earlier posting if it arrives)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 03:31 AM

From what I've seen there's still quite a few people going to the pub, it's as popular as ever, despite popular belief that people would stop going out.

Most pubs have built a shelter of some sort in the gardens, (for those who have them).

EWIS

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,fumblefingers
Date: 26 Apr 07 - 12:48 AM

The smell of beer and spirits hurts my nose and makes me cough. I get violently ill and have to get an injection of nicotine to recover. The government should ban alcohol in bars and restuarants.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: vectis
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:44 PM

I have noticed that there are far fewer smokers in many pubs than there used to be, sometimes they are in the minority. recently I was in a session and there were about fifty people in the pub. One chap eventually arrived and promptly lit up and smoked pretty constantly all night. The smoke ended up everywhere in the pub by the end of the evening making it unpleasant for everyone else.
Now that's what I call selfish behaviour and I'm glad that the ban will stop this happening.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 04:25 PM

Some of the smoking area solutions are quite cheap at £4 - 6k

And others won't cost a single penny.

What real effect? It'll mean I'll be able to choose where to drink in a pub without having to hunt out some relatively smoke free area.

And it's not just pubs of course. There's a little coffee bar I like because it's friendly and makes the best coffee and doesn't overcharge, and it doesn't feel like a Starbucks clone. But more often than not it's got some berk sitting at a table just inside drifting smoke all over the place, so I go elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 01:56 PM

The Villan said,
"Of course some pub owners who do not change their attitudes will fall by the wayside.I suppose that will be the difference between a good publican and a bad one"

Or of course the possibility of one who is running on the borderline of viabilty. Pub and Club life is not what it used to be and losing any custom could cause problems.

Some of the smoking area solutions are quite cheap at £4 - 6k (yes it's true) this could be a financial problem. We have already been informed there will be lay offs in my chain.

Again I repeat I am for the ban but I can't help but wonder what real effect it will have.

A slightly different topic but I also wonder what will be outlawed next! Will it be something we feel differently about.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Bee
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:37 AM

Here in Nova Scotia, smoking is banned in all public places, all work places, and usually also within five metres of public entrances, is not permitted anywhere on hospital property. This has been so for several years, and people have just adapted. Smokers joke that they are the only people who regularly get any fresh air in winter, as they must go outdoors for their puff.

I am one of those people in a constant struggle with nicotine addiction (quitting's easy - I've done it a few dozen times), and I'm happy with the bans. Helps me avoid temptation when I'm not smoking, limits me when I'm succumbing.

I do, however, find some of the more adamant anti-smokers rude and even unkind.

Example 1: When smoking was still permissible outside the hospital a couple years ago, and I was waiting for my mother, I helped an 86 year old man find his way out to a reasonably sheltered spot so he could have his smoke out of the cold wind. An extremely officious young administrative person came racing out and lambasted him for smoking too close to her window, which was open a tiny crack and a good three metres away.

Example 2: At a craft fair, where the mingled scented soaps, candles, sachets, people's perfumes, colognes, are enough to knock a person flat, a woman standing at my booth noticed, walking by, another elderly man holding an unlit cigar and took it upon herself to loudly complain that she would soon have an asthma attack from the smell of that disgustiing cigar, and someone should throw him out.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 09:34 AM

Thats great to hear Ella.

Of course some pub owners who do not change their attitudes will fall by the wayside.I suppose that will be the difference between a good publican and a bad one.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:50 AM

I think it's absolutely fantastic! I live in Wales and it's already in effect here. Brilliant! Makes such a difference.

Ella who is sooze

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 08:00 AM

You could maybe try walking a little faster, Giok. The smokers outside pubs in Ireland seem friendly enough - and they probably act as a calming influence on the street.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:52 AM

Because the doorways are surrounded by addicts, puffing away like there was no tomorrow Johnny, and you run a fair chance of reaching the pub smelling like a Capstan Full Strength Kipper.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,Pete
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:50 AM

I'm not entirely sure there's any correlation between smokers and yobbos.
Most Pubs, if they allow children at all, don't allow them after 6-8pm. What I can tell you is, that the chain I work for are desperately trying to sell their establishments following the release of the true figures on loss of trade(taken from Ireland and Scotland).
I also, like you, believe that Publicans and all the small independant private clubs should concentrate on other ideas to draw people in to conteract the loss, sadly I think it will be a lot easier to close down. I also believe that once the loss in revenue to the Govt is seen ( ie. loss of taxes on cigs as people reduce/ give up smoking and people buying in a supermarket and take home so they can smoke)there will be a massive hike in beer duty to try and compensate hitting the pubs once again.

I'm with you on the ban I can't wait, however I hope that their will still be pubs to go to!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:21 AM

>>Publicans won´t like it, big drop in trade expected. <<

Maybe publicans will have to change their attitudes and start catering for non smokers and families.

Another thing that they could do, is stop pumping youngsters with loads of alcohol and ban trouble makers, and start concentrating on encouring the majority of decent people to go to their pub.

Any decent publican should be able to use the smoking ban to their advantage, instead of pampering to the smokers and yobbo's.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 07:07 AM

Why's that, Giok?

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:40 AM

Well the bad news is this. Here in Scotland where we've had a ban on smoking in public places for some time now, passing a pub, or trying to enter one is like running the gauntlet.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 06:36 AM

Publicans won´t like it, big drop in trade expected.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Apr 07 - 05:39 AM

Well done Don T.Make sure you stick to it. Can you have sex with a pint?

Keep coming to Faldingworth Live Rockhen, you know it makes sense - smoke free :-)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Rockhen
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:51 PM

I will be glad when the ban comes in. I hate sitting in smoke. I do feel sympathy for my mates that smoke but I wish desperately, that they could give up as I worry about their health and also mine, when I spend time in their company.
It does disgust me, the money that is made out of smokers through tax on tobacco and that this is a major consideration when laws about smoking/non-smoking are made, rather than other factors.
Good luck to anyone giving up...I really hope you do it. I am grateful that I didn't start smoking when I was young because I think it must be particularly difficult to try to give up, if you did.
My eyes are still sore from sitting in the pub at an acoustic night last night. I have never smoked a cigarette, ever, firsthand because that choice was mine and I chose not to.. But secondhand smoke...I hate to think and feel sick at the thought of how many I have 'smoked' unwillingly.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Alice
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:41 PM

Today I was thinking about how I would wake up with a sore throat evey morning of my childhood,
how I would catch colds and flu every winter, and... how much cigarette smoke I breathed from
my dad's camel straights! We all lived in a closed in space full of smoke in our house and in the car!
No wonder I got healthier after I left home - the sore throats went away.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:12 PM

Well no bugger is going to tell ME that I can't have a cigarette with my pint.

I've made sure of that.

I've quit smoking!!!! SO THERE! Now they'll have to find summat else to stop me doing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 12:23 PM

I can't stop smokers killing themselves so long as I don't have to breathe it. Talk about infringement of rights. Smokers polluting my air are stepping on my civil rights. Yes, ban it in the streets if I have to be subjected to it. Those that tolerate it may as well be smokers themselves. If we claim to want to ban factories for their pollution and air quality, why shouldn't smokers be held accountable too?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 08:50 AM

what a load of tosh!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: terrier
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 03:33 PM

What about the people who make the 'nicotine stained effect' paint greatly favoured in British 'Olde Worlde' pubs. They'll all be out of a job. Has Blair no shame at all. :0)

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: The Barden of England
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:11 AM

Spot on Kevin. I just wish I could have said it that way.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 11:08 AM

This, they say, precludes his smoking in that room, meaning that he will only be allowed to smoke in his bedroom, even when the pub is closed.

Assuming this isn't one of those "friends" who crop up in innumerable urban legends, I'd advise Don's friend to have a good laugh and completely ignore the buffoon who said this. I am pretty certain that any attempt at a prosecution in such a case would be treated as an abuse of the court system.

And I have no doubt that a group of friends meeting together in non-public premises, without any paid staff being present, would have no legal problems whatsoever if they wish to smoke. Well, smoke tobacco anyway.

It would of course have been much better if in the first place the push for limiting smoking in all places where it might inconvenience other people had come from smokers themselves.

I have never been aware of any occasions where smokers have demanded that separate smoking facilities are provided, so that they can smoke in comfort without interfering with the comfort of people who were not smoking. At least, there were no such demands until the objections of the non-smoking majority had produced an irresistible momentum for a ban.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 10:37 AM

2003 Lets destroy folk music for the sake of public safety.
2007 I know smokers are breaking no laws. Let's make some new ones that will bar them from any venue other than a draughty, wet street corner.
2011 ANY PREDICTIONS. Can any of you be sure that YOU will not find yourself the next target?

I predict that before the next election it will be made illegal to vote against Labour. If the Lords throw it out, Blair and Brown will just force it through 'in the interests of the country' like most of the other laws they've 'passed' since they came to power.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: skipy
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:48 AM

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


Niemöller
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: fair maiden of nottingham
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 04:36 AM

Hi all, Lets face it if we turned the clock back 50 yrs, pubs used to have multi bars, and as far as meals were concerned, it was always pronounced'Gentlemen You Make Smoke' so is this the modern generation that has lowered the standards.( new stream). As for me I smoke for pleasure not total addiction.
I always have the santacty of my own place at the moment.

But as quoted previously this is now comming under suspect.

Fisheye

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Gizmo
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:15 PM

"No doubt there will be grey areas here and it will become clearer in practice."

Somehow McGrath, I very much doubt smoking only clubs would become clearer in practice!

The grey areas would certainly increase, as well as the white turned ochre ceilings and a new saying will emerge - you can't see the smokers for the smoke!

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

"The ban relates to public places and workplaces - I don't think that a club on private premises with no staff employed would be covered."

A friend of mine who happens to be a licencee has been discussing the smoking ban with the local authority, who have informed him that his living room above the pub is a workplace because it is the only space available for his paperwork.

This, they say, precludes his smoking in that room, meaning that he will only be allowed to smoke in his bedroom, even when the pub is closed.

Leaving aside the question of how they would propose to a) gather evidence, and b) enforce the rule, should they have the right to decide what he can or cannot do in that part of the premises that constitute his home, but is not open to staff or public?

I fancy that they would make the same judgement of the place where the organiser of a private club kept and updated the records of that organisation, so it would have to be a casual, unorganised gathering to be entirely safe.

Even tho' I dislike the idea of legislation as a means of achieving what could better be achieved by setting aside a smokers' room in pubs and workplaces, or by educating people to consider the needs of others, I must say I will be pleased to see smoke and music separated. It will be easier for me to sing for a whole evening (a purely selfish POV, especially as I have been a smoker until very recently).

I do fear, however, that the authorities will overstep the mark in their zeal to uphold this latest erosion of rights.

2003 Lets destroy folk music for the sake of public safety.
2007 I know smokers are breaking no laws. Let's make some new ones that will bar them from any venue other than a draughty, wet street corner.
2011 ANY PREDICTIONS. Can any of you be sure that YOU will not find yourself the next target?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 10:30 AM

If I go into a pub today, and there are smokers present (evident by the smoky atmosphere), of course I can exercise my right as a non-smoker to leave, and find another pub more to my taste.

If a smoker enters a pub and sees non-smokers are present (evident by the absence of any smoke), he could exercise his right to leave, and seek out a smoke-filled pub. But how many smokers would do that?

It's true I can choose not to enter a pub if it already contains smokers, but supposing there are none present when I enter, and let's say I order a drink and a meal, and then a smoker comes in and lights up a cigarette and starts blowing smoke in my direction (whether intentionally or not). What am I supposed to do now? I've paid for the drink and the meal so I don't want to walk out - I wouldn't be able to get a refund either.

Yes, I could ask the smoker politely to stop, but that's likely to cause friction, and at worst a violent or aggressive response, on the grounds that it's his 'right' to smoke, regardless of the consequences to me or others in the pub.

That's why I'm in favour of the new law. It means I can be certain this scenario won't happen - at present it's a lottery for non-smokers, and the cards are stacked in smokers' favour, because non-smokers (all else being equal) don't affect them at all.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: jacqui.c
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 08:45 AM

If any area was labelled SMOKERS ONLY I would not go into it. That would be my choice.

What is being talked about here is the lack of choice open to all non smokers who would like to spend a pleasant evening making music with friends. Even one skmoker in a bar can make the atmosphere unpleasant for all the rest, even more so if any of the others have respiratory problems or have suffered from smoking related illnesses.

Unfortunately Fisheye, not all smokers are as willing as you to comply with requests. Even where smoking is banned, on trains, I once had a stand up argument with a guy who was going to light up, before the train even started. He got off the train when I actually went to the door to get the guard to come and deal with him.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: fair maiden of nottingham
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 04:32 AM

Hi all, I have smoked a pipe for 30 plus years, and if i enter a place that does not allow smokingol it does not worry me. But I do object to being controlled by Law.
If my local pub,put a large sign outside, saying SMOKERS ONLY. what argument can you none smokers have about entering knowing your fate.
as a final, i would love a £1 for every none smoker that told me they like the smell of my pipe tobacco.

fisheye

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: terrier
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:07 PM

### Nanny Blair's take over all human activity is nearly complete ###

Nice one scrump......but I do worry you may not be to far from the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: smoking in uk pubs
From: GUEST,IB48
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:22 PM

I think skipy has hit onto something here