BS: Adolf Hitler

Subject: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,John
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM

This is very controversial, but well worth discussing, we all know Hitler was a madman who plunged the whole world into chaos, but he also raised a country on the brink of the abiss into one of the most powerful nations ever within a very short space of time. so my question is what can we learn from those early policies that we could apply to todays world that would benefit all, and not just the chosen few.
I would like to point out that i in no way agree with or sympathise with any far right group, but am merely putting forward a question for debate.

---

Please use a consistent user name, John. Thank you.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:08 PM

IMO, it is bullshit that he raised the nation to anything. He got the big money into weapons production and the young men into the military. Wasn't the first to do it, and looking around, he ain't been the last. Pardon me for saying, but F##K the NAZIS! Yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:24 PM

Well, agreed Peace, "...F##K the NAZIS! Yesterday, today and tomorrow...." but, he did get the trains to run on time (an old line, I know) build a network of Autobahns across Germany, & got production way up in a country that was struggling more than most in the wake of the Depression Era.

He even got the people working for what they were persuaded was the common good...it was just that the cause they were given was...well we all know what atrocities he led them to...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:29 PM

A demagogue is a demagogue is a demagogue.

"...F##K the NAZIS! Yesterday, today and tomorrow...."

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:35 PM

It was Mussolini who was supposed to have gotten the trains to run on time. According to folks who were in Italy at the time, that was bullshit.

F##K the NAZIS! Yesterday, today and tomorrow!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Greg B
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:36 PM

He may, perhaps, serve as a lesson to the 'rest' of us about how
a group of people who feel they've been screwed (i.e. Germans
post Treaty of Versailles) and are being screwed can be maniuplated
to commit atrocities. Which affect the whole world.

Are ya listening, Condie? Dubya?

I thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:38 PM

he was adolf hitler,his name was spelt with an f.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:39 PM

Ah, I stand corrected then, Rapaire, thanks!

Greg B...absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:41 PM

Not to be confused with ADOLPH'S MEAT TENDERIZER.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:43 PM

Dear PEACE --I am nearly 60 years old ,& I live in a country run by selfish,incompetent,corrupt,immoral,war-mongering psychopaths who,a mere 40 years ago,would have been shot for treason against the People of Britain.They arrogantly preside over a nation beset by drug-addiction,alcoholism,teenage pregnancy,murder,rape,hitherto unknown levels of aggression & violence,& in some cases,levels of poverty approaching those of the so-called Third World.Children spit in the faces of their parents & teachers,old people are mugged in the streets & beaten up for their mobile "phones & whatever little money they may have-----Those responsible for these crimes,if they are sent to prison,are called SIR by their warders,& are allowed to have mobile "phones ---they do not,of course ,have to wear a uniform !!! I,& millions like me,have HAD ENOUGH OF THIS !!! So if somebody came along,--A STRONG LEADER,who could deal with all this CRAP ( WE CAN"T--we can"t own guns,we can"t get to the army to get their support,we can"t even protest outside NO.10 Downing Street any more without being arrested )Well, I for one would follow him as if he were THE MESSIAH---No,I would NOT wish to see another Hitler, BUT,---if there was absolutely No alternative,then I would have to follow him, for the sake of my beloved country . Sorry,but that"s the sad state Britain is in today .

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 05:49 PM

a nation beset by drug-addiction,alcoholism,teenage pregnancy,murder,rape,hitherto unknown levels of aggression & violence......

(well if you will go to Market Rasen Folk Club.........)

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:03 PM

Don't you see bubblyrat, whether you support A or B it's this kind of attitude, following a STRONG LEADER with easy solutions, that creates all these problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Crazyhorse
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:08 PM

And it isn't over Nazis in Italy

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: John O'L
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:09 PM

As I understood it, Hitler's rejuvenation of the German economy was dependant on the nationalistic frenzy he whipped up, the consolidation of political power and the removal or discredit of political opposition.

It seems a high price to pay, and must necessarily lead to a very dangerous vantage point from which to view the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:11 PM

How far would you follow such a leader though, Bubblyrat? Once a leader starts 'demonising' a segment of the population, then its gone WAY too far...but typically by then, its too late to stop it.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:19 PM

oh fer chrissake........!

No.......there is no conversation here. Anybody who thinks Hitler has something to teach us, is bonkers. Period.

just say NO. like you do when the Jehovah's witnesses ask you if you've given any thought to the state of the world......

No you haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:34 PM

To simply label Hitler a "madman" is to avoid having to do much thinking about the man. He was not, by the textbook definition of insanity, a madman when he very effectively led a fledgling political party through years of social ferment all the way to the pinnacle of power in his country.

What he was, was this: A pscychologically unstable man. A man who suffered from extreme paranoia and zenophobia toward 2 groups of people, Jews and Communists. A ruthless man who was willing to do whatever it took to gain power. A brilliant orator. A clever negotiator. A charismatic leader of other people. A man who was quite willing to bluff and lie outrageously when conducting diplomacy with other nations.

Such men are very dangerous, but they sometimes do very well and become known as heroes (if they win).

I think it is glib, unthinking, and basically pointless to routinely describe Hitler as "a madman". He was not seen as a madman by millions of Germans who supported him. If he had been clearly mad, I think it would have been immediately apparent to many of them, wouldn't it?

He definitely became mad eventually when he started losing the war. He lost his mind. No doubt about it. So would many other ruthless and unstable men, under the same disastrous circumstances.

To call enemy leaders "madmen" is a standard propaganda technique, intended to incite extreme fear and hatred in the people to whom the propaganda is directed. It is assumed that this will make them fight harder in a war against those enemy leaders.

Thus, Saddam Hussein was referred to as a "madman", and Ahmadinejad is referred to as a "madman". Standard propaganada. The truth is, Saddam was not a madman, he was a ruthless, strongarm, bloody dictator who made mistakes now and then. Ahmadinejad is very likely not a madman either, by any stretch of the imagination, but the American administration will label him as such in order to demonize him.

Is Bush a madman? I doubt it. I think he's probably just not a very smart man.

Okay....enough lecturing on the term "madman", so frequently used for political purposes by people who want their public to support a war...

How about your question? Did Hitler make some smart and effective moves in restoring Germany's economy and strength? Yeah...I figure so. Were those moves fatally compromised by his dark side? Yeah.

If I was going to turn a society around, I'd set about doing it quite differently than he did. ;-) I would not do it by demonizing certain minority groups as a motivator for the rest of the people. I would do it by increasing employment, providing a fairer justice system, and protecting the environment (and a great many jobs could be created to do that). I would provide free national health care for all citizens. I would avoid provoking wars with other countries. I would attack NO other country upon any pretext whatsoever. I would avoid over-emphasizing military spending to the detriment of civilian spending. I would ensure that political parties were not beholden to huge corporate sponsors, but to the general public who elects them.

Would that be easy? Hell, no. Anyone who tried it in the USA would end up dead, most likely.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:51 PM

The only thing Hitler and his ilk can teach is is what not to do. People like Hitler understand that desperation leads to tunnel-vision - that many people are willing to sacrifice higher abstractions like "equality" and "human dignity" in favor of more basic needs like "security" and "safety". Unfortunately, even today, there are many otherwise sensible people who are willing to listen to "leaders" who tell them things are desperate, whether they are or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:57 PM

People seek simplistic solutions instead of actual ones.

Hitler and his crew provided simplistic solutions ("It's the fault of the Internation Jewish Communist Conspiracy!"). People bought into it because it's easier than thinking, easier than accepting the truth that you brought on your problems yourself.

Please read Eric Hoffer's book "The True Believer."

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 06:59 PM

Thankyou LH, you've said in there what I was trying, & I think failed, to say in my 1st post.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:11 PM

In many ways, Hitler was very much like us - a human being, not a monster. That's what's so troubling. It wouldn't take much to turn any one of us into a Hitler, or into one of his followers.

People scream about any attempt to portray Hitler sympathetically, perhaps because they refuse to believe that they could do the same. I think he did what he did for what he thought were good reasons. If we are to avoid another Holocaust, we must study ourselves in comparison to Hitler, a real human being.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM

Hitler has just been captured by some duck hunters in Arkansas. It must be true since the newspaper (I think, called the World Digest), advertised itself as the only reliable source of information in the world). It also had the first pictures ever taken in Hell. They have great stuff at CVS.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:34 PM

Don't forget that he was well and truly supported by many other mentally unstable guys like Himmler - who after personally leading "the Final Solution" Project, truly believed that he could then negotiate with the Allies to end the War and protect himself from the consequences of his actions.

Also, Hitler and his thuggish henchmen (who look mostly indistinguishable to outsiders like me from many of the 'US redneck right wing', including those who have posted here at Mudcat!) were strongly supported by rich Capitalists (including some in the USA - some of whom were the grandfathers of current US Poiticians...) who saw an easy way to make lots of money, and thought that they could 'easily control him', much as the US has often thought it control others like Saddam and certain South American Dictators...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:45 PM

Exactly my point, Joe. Well said. People are eager to label such individuals as Hitler or Saddam or Stalin as extraordinary "monsters", as you say, because they are unwilling to consider that they themselves (or their leaders) are quite capable of making the same terrible mistakes...given the right circumstances. The same is true of the standard knee-jerk demonization of evil "Nazis" that people indulge in endlessly. It's a handy excuse to avoid looking at much more present realities with a much more critical eye. They can't admit or face up to the possibility that they might well fall for something similar just as easily as the Germans did in '33-'45. It can happen here. And it does happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: kendall
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM

After WW 1 Germany was on her knees. No food, no infrastructure, inflation to the point where they needed a wheel barrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. Ok, a question:

Where did Hitler get the money to arm Germany and raise so much hell in Europe?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 07:52 PM

From a bunch of rich industrialists, a number of whom were located in the USA. War is good business.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:28 PM

As to 'how', Hitler hamstrung the unions, eliminated overtime pay, and instituted labour batallions. Then he got the organized churches on his side by throwing money at them. That last idea came from Mussolini.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:39 PM

I asked my old history teacher where the Luftwaffe came from. I mean, the Treaty of Versailles had imposed very strict limits on German air forces and you don't raise an air force overnight.

Know where it came from? Ye Olde Teacher didn't, but I researched it and found out.

The Luftwaffe was trained in...the Soviet Union. Russia. Germany used airfields in Russian to train the pilots who would, in 1940, be flying against Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 09:50 PM

And they tried some tactics on the Spanish. Guernica come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:00 PM

Yes, the situation with regard to the Russians was very different at the time when the fledgling German Luftwaffe was being quietly built up. Don't forget that Russian and Germany were not enemies then. They were even allies for awhile, when they agreed to partition Poland in '39.

There were also numerous "glider" clubs, and that sort of thing, back in Germany. Gliders had always been tremendously popular with Germans, and these clubs existed in their own right, but they were greatly assisted and enlarged by the Nazis as training grounds for future German military aviators. Smart move, actually. ;-) Anyone attempting to circumvent a totally unfair and oppressive treaty forced upon his nation would do exactly the same thing.

I don't fault the Germans at all for having wanted to rebuild their armed forces. Any nation would have wanted to do the same. It was most unfortunate that they fell under the spell of an unstable demagogue and a most unpleasant bunch of fanatics and scoundrels while they were engaged in doing it.

The Versailles Treaty was wrongful, unfair, and punitive in the extreme. They were justified in being angry about it, and in trying to circumvent it, in my opinion.

Americans, placed in a similar spot, would have done the same. So would the English. So would the French. So would the Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: mack/misophist
Date: 14 Jan 07 - 11:40 PM

Along with glider clubs, there were also shooting clubs. Heinz Guderian directed the first panzer manoeuvres using trucks with cardboard 'armour'. They had trouble with small boys jeering and throwing rocks through the armour. And don't forget the Hitler Youth, which eventually became almost mandatory. It taught close order drill and camping skills.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:05 AM

"so my question is what can we learn from those early policies that we could apply to todays world that would benefit all, and not just the chosen few."

What we can learn is to spread fear and paranoia into the population of the given country. A good conspiracy theory works well and from this 'theory' find a scapegoat to justify these fears, and paranoia. Good scapegoats are usually people of another culture, colour and religeon. Works really well if all these features can be rolled into one.

Blend all of this into a well organized propaganda machine and this will unify the population (good jobs for all). Of course all this will be focused into building up armaments to protect you from this fear factor. Throw in some social programs to create an illusion of how the government benefits all .. like getting the trains to run on time, build one hell of highway and an affordable people's car and man ... there ya go. You got the population right behind all the way.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:17 AM

"I don't fault the Germans at all for having wanted to rebuild their armed forces. Any nation would have wanted to do the same."

Oh no ... not at all. Maybe Canada should do the same ... after all we have the crazy war monging Americans below us, the the drug smuggling Mexicans below them ... we got the Al Qaeda over there ... Belarusia, I certainly don't trust, the Portugese off the Grand Banks taking our cod ... we got the .... Geeeez I'm getting quite worried now .... gonna e-mail my MP right away demanding we build up are own armed forces to protect us all from this surrounding evil.

Jeeeeeezuz H.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:58 AM

Canada is in a radically different situation, Bill, geographically and in almost every way, from that of Germany in the '30's, positioned as it was and is in the middle of Europe, with powerful ancestral opponents on every side of it, all with no treaty restriction on their military forces.

To the west, France, the traditional opponent, with whom the Germans had fought numerous wars in the past, and who had the world's foremost army following WWI. To the east, Russia, another traditional opponent. To the northwest, the UK, another (more recent) traditional opponent.

And you can't grasp that the Germans felt they had a right to arm themselves in an equal fashion to those traditional opponents????

Canada is by no means in such a position as they were. We have ONLY ONE neighbour, immediately to the south, and it is a neighbour whose population outnumbers us 10 to 1, and we could not possibly fight a war against them and win, so we have chosen to ally ourselves with them instead.

No one else exists as a credible land threat to Canada. No one.

The situation is in no way comparable, Bill. So let me revise my previous statement:

"I don't fault the Germans at all for having wanted to rebuild their armed forces. Any nation of large size located in western Europe in the 20's and 30's would have wanted to do the same."

And they all did, didn't they? I was not praising Naziism, Bill, I was stating a simple pragmatic truth, free of kneejerk prejudice, which is that the Germans, like any other large nation in Europe at that time, felt it absolutely imperative that they have a modern and capable armed forces, comparable to that of their recent foes. That was Realpolitik in a Europe which had seen more wars already than anyone can be bothered to even count.

Period.

Hitler capitalized on that feeling and used it to further his own nefarious ends.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Bert
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:00 AM

...And don't forget the Hitler Youth...

And don't forget the Boy Scouts, founded by Baden Powell to train boys in Military techniques.

...an affordable people's car... The British equivalent was the Morris Series E, which got put on the back burner until after the war. A much better car all round until it was superseded by the Minor.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:12 AM

As always, these things are seen as "good" or "bad" depending on who won the last conflict...and which team you consider the "home team".

How many people are capable of seeing beyond their tribal, cultural, religious or national identity and being genuinely impartial in their judgements of others? One in a thousand?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 01:29 AM

"hamstrung the unions, eliminated overtime pay, and instituted labour battalions. Then he got the organized churches on his side by throwing money at them. That last idea came from Mussolini. "

Hmmm, you COULD be talking about Little Fascist Johnny...

Now we have the IR laws in place, he has been pandering to the churches by installing 'chaplins' in schools (but I bet poor old Charlie won't get a job...), but is refusing to allow 'chaplins' for anything but 'permitted religions', ie nothing allowed for 'non-Abrahamic' religions, certainly no 'assistance' for committed Atheists, etc...

Now for a bit of Harmless Self Promotion on Mudcat
What A Friend We Have In Johnny
Well, this IS a Music Forum...

:-)
Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:51 AM

Believe me, Bert, I've seen Boy Scout troops that make me a bit nervous. If their leaders are right-wing yahoos, look out!
-Joe, who was registered with the Scouts for 30 years-

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:17 AM

Ther might be better examples for us to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: skipy
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:57 AM

What have the Nazis ever done for us?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:54 AM

1) provided a good negative example of certain unacceptable civilised behaviour

2) pinched and desecrated on old cultural good luck symbol - stuill widely used OUTSIDE of Western Europe and most countries involved in WWII

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:12 AM

"Any nation of large size located in western Europe in the 20's and 30's would have wanted to do the same." .... besides France, who was just as paranoid of the German's (maginot line), who else built up such a large armory out of fear? Germany is the only one really.

I can find no justification in the German's rearming themselves to such a larch scale. It was nationalistic pride, delusions of paranoia being pumped up after getting the sh&t kicked out of them after WWII. But then a lot of countries got the sh&t kicked out of them didn't they. "The lost generation".

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:46 AM

No one else exists as a credible land threat to Canada. No one.

There are the Canadians....

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 10:18 AM

Believe me, Bert, I've seen Boy Scout troops that make me a bit nervous.

A lot of that turn of events is down to the move of Scout HQ from New Brunswick, NJ to the heart of loony christian[sic] fundagelicalism in Texas.

Hence the Scout anti-gay campaigns of late & the turn to christian[sic] militarism.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 12:49 PM

"There are the Canadians.... "

Especially the ones that live on reservations.

And the polar ice caps.

And our own government.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 02:28 PM

LH - you said earlier that Hitler 'suffered from extreme paranoia and zenophobia toward 2 groups of people, Jews and Communists'. This of course is true, but the Nazis were also somewhat more than intolerant of people of colour, homosexuals, people with mental and physical 'handicaps', Slavs, 'gypsies', socialists... They were imprisoning these people (and murdering them) long before the Second World War started (that's 1939 for most of the countries involved in the war). I'm not sure why people were surprised at Hitler's actions - many of them were predicted in that nasty little book he wrote while he was in prison.

Don't follow leaders - watch the parking meters!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:36 PM

Agreed, Les. The Nazis tended to go after anyone they saw as different from themselves...or outside the narrow band of approval that they had concocted in their philosophy.

I agree, Number 6, that the Germans overdid their rearmament program, and that was unreasonable. My point, though, was that it was as natural for them to want to have a strong national military as it was for the French...and for the very same reasons.

The Germans were no more to blame for WWI happening than the French were. It occurred through a bunch of entangling alliances. It was not started by Germany. It started with a falling out between Austria-Hungary and Serbia. The Germans and French were pulled in by their alliances, as were the Russians and the British and the Italians. What a mess it was.

I see no reason why the Germans should have been penalized in the way they were following the conclusion of that war. They were not the sole perpetrators of it by any means, they just fought very well and then had the bad luck to end up on the losing side, by virtue of being significantly outnumbered in both manpower and industry. It was the belated entry of the USA that put the nail in Germany's coffin in that war. Everyone else was worn out, bled white, and tired by 1918, but not the Americans, they were fresh and keen, and they had tremendous resources to bring to bear.

France's desire to punish Germany for something that was not particularly Germany's fault in any exclusive sense set the stage for Hitler's later successes. It was a very stupid move on the part of the French.

If all the involved nations could have gone home with their dignity intact at the end of WWI, it would have been far better for everyone in the long run. That would have been both honorable and wise.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:37 PM

No-one here knows what it must have been like to be German in the aftermath of WW1. The postwar settlements were iniquitous beyond belief, in particular the Versaille Treaty in which the French fell over themselves to make sure the Germans tasted dirt. In fact Germany had been no worse than any of the other empires that came crashing down in the wake of Ferdinand's assasination, and were not to blame for the war.

Hitler saw the potential to exploit a humiliated population, and was incredibly far-sighted in the way he went about it. He also had a giant chip on his own shoulder that made him a driven man.

Bankers and big business in the US - IBM, the Rothschilds etc - fell oer themselves to invest their dollars in the possibility of war. The New York Stock Exchange took one of its bigest single steps towards recovery the day Hitler was appointed chancellor.

Hitler was also able to capitalise on the fierce antisemitism then rampant across Europe, his original plan (cf Mein Kampf) being to ship all the Jews to Madagascar. Such antisemitism was a major factor in how readily some countries fell in with him, and not only in cenetral/easern Europe. France became a willing ally in transporting its Jews east to their deaths.

What Joe said is right (14 Jan, 07:11pm). Many of us, if the circumstances were right (ie wrong) could stoop to Hitler's level. Mercifully very few of us have anything remotely approaching his low cunning and extraordinary charisma.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 03:59 PM

Well said in every respect, Fionn.

Isn't it odd how behaviour that was seen as tremendously charismatic in one era by one population could look so exaggerated and ridiculous through the eyes of a later era?

Mussolini's arrogant mugging for his fascist audiences is another classic example of that sort of thing.

I also always notice that the radio announcers and film narrators of the 1940's and 1950's tended to speak in a way that today sounds very exaggerated and bombastic. This is particularly evident in old American war documentaries made in that period. It's downright annoying to listen to that stuff now.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:41 PM

Exaggerated and bombastic? You listen to Geo. W. Bush lately? He's well within the tradition...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 04:53 PM

It's the tone of voice I'm referring to, mainly. Find some old Cold War newsreels from the 50's on the Net and you'll see what I mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:04 PM

No need to go to the net- I heard 'em first time round.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

The weird thing is, they all sound so alike.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:05 PM

LH and others have mades some fine points here. I've resisted adding my tupence 'til now and some of you are undoubtedly greatful. Too bad.

I am always amazed at the Nazi-phobes or Hitler-phobes who condemn everything about the man. In our 20-20 historical, clutural, hindsight it is EASY to see his flaws, his insanity. And as his course played out to the hurt of Germany, the Jews, the Blacks, the Gypsies, the Bulgarians, the, well, you get the picture---to the pain of the whole world, his insanity became starkly evident to even most of his closest henchmen, some of whom tried to dispatch him. Sorry, but I can't help and reflect on how good the world looks without Saddam Hussein in it.

One of the things many overlook is that the moment helped make the man. The Treaty of Versailles was a harsh and punitive burden on post WWI Germany. Hitler DID have some brilliant solutions to many of Germany's very real problems. It is a good debate as to whether or not those solutions were so rooted in Hitler's design for Aryan Utopia that they would not have stood alone, that is, have been an effective "cure" in and of themselves. But to be dismissive of everything Hitler did is riddiculous. It's a hysterical reaction to the man's meglomania. Should we stop breathing air because Hitler breathed air??? Get it?

Do you socialists forget that Nazism was a sort of hyper-socialism and probably more akin to Communism in its effect and demeanor than the right wing politics of today with which so many of you want to paint GWB. And please, I am NOT saying anything about GWB one way or another at the moment. Whoever the poor shmuck sitting atop of the system in America today would look quite a bit like what we already have.

What I AM saying is that when Hitler came along, he looked GOOD to a lot of people. He had conviction about the source of the Germans' miseries. "It's those damn rightwingers!" Yeah, get 'em. It's those damn Commies, get 'em. Name your foe, then go, man, go!

When another Hitler comes along, and believe me, he will, there will be a big welcoming commitee made up of folks, folks like bubblyrat and people to afraid or incapable of thinking for themselves. They will be like many Mudcatters who so readily condemn anything that comes out of GWB's camp or they will be like Rush Limbaugh's ditto heads who sieg heil what ever the man says, or whatever they think he says.

The real solution to keeping future Hitlers at bay is to stop being provincial, to press for REAL education where debate takes place instead of ANSWERS given. To engage in DI-alogue, not MONO-logue. To step outside of your own convictions every once in a while and see the other guy's point of view. To insist on honesty and divest yourselves of self-interest and see what may be good for the whole of mankind.

I know this. The current trend toward polarization is not healthy for the social structure of our world. Whether it falls left or right will not make a difference as the collapse of society and technical society will result in an unimaginable catastrophe, a true Armaggedon. Some people think that THAT may be a good solution. It isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:30 PM

So what did Hitler do that was really good ... we are all aware of the autobahn, cool architecture, kindergardens, volkswagens, good jobs in arnament factories and in the army itself, building up the ego of a defeated nation, nationalizing some corporations (to some this is good, but not to all) ... but what did he really do? Was he a Ghandi, or Martin Luther King and we have been deceived all along by history.

Conviction is nothing, it's the actions that really matter.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 06:35 PM

I should add from what I understand Hitler did not look good or appear like a saviour to the all German people ... at least 50% or more we're very, leary of him and his politics of nationalism. So we should be under the deception that all of germany welcomed him with open arms. Much the same that not all of the U.S. voted in George Bush and are behind his policies.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:07 PM

True enough. It only takes a sliver over 50% of a public to successfully endorse a government policy, don't forget. Well, no, I mean it takes 50% of the people who are registered to vote and who actually get out and vote! It may take even considerably less than that under certain circumstances (election fraud or more than 2 parties).

Yes, there were a lot of Germans in the 30's who were very leery of Hitler. They failed to coalesce as a united group, and they failed to find a leader who could unite them effectively. Thus, they failed, and Hitler succeeded. After the Reichstag burned and he assumed emergency powers, the show was over. After that, you were either with the Nazis or you were on the outside looking in...and in peril of getting into serious trouble at some point.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:12 PM

A couple of things here...

The Germans not responsible for the Great War - The Austro-Hungarians had been spoiling for a war with Serbia, and the German 'blank cheque' of support allowed them to arrange this, even though it would bring in Russia and France. The Germans had been developing plans for war against France and Russia for years (the Schlieffen Plan).

bILL - When Hitler was created Chancellor the majority of Germans (56.1%) voted against him, but he was the leader of the biggest party. As Chancellor he simply banned the other parties.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM

Thanks for verifying this Les.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 07:27 PM

Too bad the other German parties couldn't see their way toward forming a coalition, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:11 PM

Yes, yes. Those were the events, the "igniter" causes and the certain circumstnaces which helped AH succeed in his endeavor. Restoring a people's belief in themselves and their worthiness is the more intangible yet more significant factor in play. He got the trains to run on time (to the detriment of the transportees) because he got people to believe in themselves again. He used national identity and pride as a rallying point (which in and of itself is not a bad thing) and then he demonstrated that it was something that was taken from them and used against them.

It amazes me how in-tune the founders of the US were to what lends itself to tyranny. They realized that the slippery slope wasn't left or right but it was on EVERY side. They knew the corrupting force of POWER, regardless of its political trappings and they sought the three point balance found in our constitution. It's not perfect but so far, so good. It works. Even though our "Public Servants" fight like dogs to wrest power from each other while you and I just try to make a life for ourselves!

If you've never read Issac Asimov's "The Foundation Trilogy" you might find it very entertaining as well as educational. The character known as "The Mule" is a paradigm for the unsuspected tyrant, so innocuous that no one would believe him capable of what he was capable of!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:40 PM

Note:

The Nazis didn't invent kindergarten, Maria Montessori did.

A major psychological reason for the harshness of Clemenceau'
s treaty was the way the High Command conducted the war. Remember Belgium? Shooting large numbers of hostages in retaliation for one or two snipers? Shooting pregnant women, children, and priests? Targeting known passenger ships? The General Staff acted as though they were in the Middle Ages.

Also remember that the Germans in 1930 had no love for democracy. Their glory days had all been under aristocrats and monarchs. Most Germans wanted something like that back. For them, the Versailles Treaty and the Weimar Republic had brought only inflation and hardship.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 08:40 PM

I read the Foundation series back in the 70's. I always figured that the Bob Dylan line "jewels and binoculars hang from the head of the mule" in the song "Visions of Johanna" probably referred to the character in Asimov's books.

You are absolutely right that tyranny is not confined to either the Right or the Left but that it lurks waiting on all sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:33 PM

Public opinion in the UK was very much against Germany at Versailles. People also remembered Nurse Edith Cavill, poison gas and naval and aerial bombardment of British coastal towns (my own town lost 25 civilians killed by Zepellin L6 on 6 June 1915).

But as Marshal Foch predicted - 'it is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years'. Yes the Treaty was flawed, it was a cause of World War 2, but not as big a cause as Adolf Hitler.

I don't trust nationalism in any form. We'd be better off remembering that we're all human beings, although I'm rather ashamed to share a species with Herr Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 09:53 PM

Cool LH. I think you must be right re Dylan's allusion. It fits perfectly.

The assumed exigenicies of war have remained little changed until the age of mass communication and public eyes on the battlefield. The ancients used to kill every man, woman, child, all the animals, burn the fields and level every building and obliterate every written reference that could be unearthed. Every civilization had a story or a myth about one lone survivor who, usually with devine help, would come back and topple an empire or at least do some serious payback. Remember Diemos and Phobos, the hellhounds of Ares, wardogs. Yes, Germany just happened to be next on the long list of reveling conquerors. It also seems as though every country points to the atrocities of the "other guys" and says, "Why, we'd never do something like THAT!" and they ALL do! The international hatreds of Europe go back thousands of years and then some. I'm surprized that Jesus made it to the age of 33-34! It must have been devine intervention! With a message like "love your enemies, do good to those who hate you and spitefully use you." you would HAVE to be born again.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:22 PM

"The Nazis didn't invent kindergarten, Maria Montessori did."

No they didn't never said they did, neither did Maria Montessori ... Friedrich Fröbel is the father of kindergartens. The Nazis (socialistic regime) did ensure all pre-school children were sent to kindergarten .. whose sole purpose was to indoctrinate children of their policies at an very early age.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jan 07 - 11:28 PM

For sure, Slag. ;-)

The main reason that the Germans used their navy to bombard British coastal towns was this: they were attempting to use their fastest big ships, the battlecruisers, to lure a portion of the considerably larger British fleet into a trap set by the main German fleet. In this way they hoped to overwhelm part of the British fleet and perhaps even the odds somewhat. Their scheme never quite reached fruition. The British were too clever for them, and turned the tables on them at the battle of Jutland. Only the superb design of the larger German ships, a risky maneuver called "the battle turn-away", and a bit of rather good luck saved them from utter disaster on that day.

And, yes, they bombed England's cities with Zeppelins and Gothas...for psychological reasons...and simply because they could do it. They also did some long range heavy artillery hits on Paris, I believe. I'm sure the Allies would have done the same to Berlin had they been in any position to. What really bugged France and England so much was that all the significant ground fighting in the west had occurred on Allied soil in France and Belgium. They wanted revenge for that.

I don't buy the argument that the Germans were innately more inhuman and vicious than the British or the French. It sounds like the convenient rhetoric of victors to me. They all did whatever they thought would work and would secure them a victory.

But, Les, you are right that nationalism is a disease for which the human race badly needs to find a cure.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 01:35 AM

I remember seeing a documentary on the Battle of Jutland. Risky stuff on GB's part and a bad miscalculation by Germany due in part to pride and arrogance. And, yes, the German military had a long infatuation with the "Big Guns". The individual in a war is in a personal fight. That "other" sonofabitch is trying to kill him! It's enough to piss anybody off! You fight back and if there is any steam left over after the fighting is done, that's when things can happen. It's a gruesome business.

Nationalism has served a purpose in the past, for perserving family, kith and kin. The interdependece of the world today has really blurred the lines of distinction in many instances. It makes for good football rivalries and bragging rights but nothing to go to war over. Not anything like the price of oil or who's God is the greatest.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:03 AM

You're right that the Germans had an infatuation with big guns, but they were playing catch-up to the British in WWI when it came to ships. The biggest guns at Jutland were on the British "R" class battleships (5 of them) and the slightly larger "Queen Elizabeth" class (5 more)(which included the famous H.M.S. Warspite)...there were 15" bore guns on those ships...8 apiece. I think the biggest ship guns the Germans had were 13.5" at that point. The majority of capital ships at the time mounted 12" guns.

The Warspite and her sisters did great damage to the Germans at Jutland and then went on to serve in WWII. One of them was sunk by a U-boat in the Med. The others all survived to meet their fate at the scrapyards in the 50's. They really should have preserved the Warspite as a permanent memorial. That ship had an incredible career in the 2 world wars, fought in the North Sea, the Atlantic, the Med, and the Pacific, and won key battles against the Germans (at Narvik) and the Italians (at Matapan). She also had the very good luck to avoid an encounter with Yamamoto's aircraft carrier squadrons in the Indian Ocean who would surely have sunk her, given half a chance. They sank pretty well every other British ship they got a crack at in early '42.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: kendall
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM

Anyone who thinks you can keep a German on his knees doesn't know squat about Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:26 AM

"I don't buy the argument that the Germans were innately more inhuman and vicious than the British or the French. It sounds like the convenient rhetoric of victors to me."

Perhaps so. And I don't know about "innately" - but can anyone tell me of any calculated atrocities committed by the Allies against German civilians or military in WWI? I'm not saying that there weren't any, but just that I've never heard of any - and of course that may be because the victors write the history ... but we haven't exactly been in a jingoistic phase when it comes to the rhetoric of Western history these last forty years or so ...

There was an argument made some years ago concerning the treatment of German POWs in Europe at the end of the war - I believe WWI(?) - but that argument - that those POWs were deliberately starved - was more or less discredited, as I recall.

And there were no doubt horrible things done in the heat of battle by all sides - surrendering soldiers being killed, etc. But, again, I for one would be curious to learn of any Allied war crimes against Germans in WWI.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:33 AM

No mention of the well documented massacres of Belgian civillians by German forces in 1914.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/germanatrocities_usreport.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 12:01 PM

teenage hooligans, a new phenomenon that only fascism can manage?
I bet the yahooo that proposed that is suffering from PTSS.

Here in the US we have a mini Hitler how is faithfully making the same mistakes as Adolf.

what next

Al Quida invades Normady but General Betrayus and General Traytor are afraid to wake the Commander and Chief?

You hear the current talking point that you can't run a war by commitee. What the hell do you think has been going on?
Of course it is run by the PNAC and American think tank commitees along with every damn defense contractor at the disposal of the US.

Even the Billy Graham reigious patriot machine and evangelical base are on the commitee. This war is dependent on media commitees be it Clear Channel or Fox. This war is the biggest damn commitee ever created for the expoits of petroleum and the miltary industrial defense contractors.

George's handlers are careful to let him believe that he can micro manage the war but the most he can do is stop good ideas in favor of a perpetual war. Even Hitler believed he could micro manage the military when he opened a war on two fronts and went into Russia.


Yep Hitler was a decider all right but George knows better after he got some sense beat into him the night he supposedly choked on a pretzle into unconsciousness. That night the real deciders told him how things were going to go. That night was the night George's meager spark of conscience took its last breath and died.

The man is best influenced by anyone who plays the anti father card.
He will do anything for the delusion that that he rose to the Presidency on his own power and is totally seperate from his dad. This is Jr's demon and will destroy him and his family.

OF course this is merely my opinion. George may in fact be a prophetic genius and the defense industry may be the greatest angels of mercy and morality of all time.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 01:07 PM

Anyone who has seen the numerous films and programmes on the fall of Berlin in World War 2 would have to be of the most twisted mind to give credit to Hitler and his Nazi party.
This man sacrificed the very young and the very old in a mad-cap and hopeless gamble to save Berlin, countless thousands of lives could have been saved if some of his Generals had stood up to the mad-mans insane orders, what took place in east Germany in the last days of was a horror story which hopefully will never be repeated.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:27 PM

Hitler had entirely lost his mind by the time the Battle of Berlin was underway. This is not to excuse his behaviour in any way. It's merely an observation.

Regarding the various historically notable atrocities against civilians by Germans in WWI....there's a pretty simple explanation for why the Allies aren't remembered for doing similar things to German civilians....are you ready?


They never got a chance to!!!! The fighting in the western theatre during that war ALL took place in Belgium and France, on Allied ground. This is so elegantly simple and obvious that it amazes me that it has seemingly never occurred to anyone.

Therefore only the German soldiers HAD any opportunity to mistreat a civilian population during their military occupation of foreign ground...and they did so mistreat them, on occasion. So do most occupying armies...on occasion. It was not a general policy.

Regarding the starving to death of German prisoners of war, I don't know about WWI, but I do know that it happened in the west (not just in Russia) at the conclusion of WWII and a lot of German prisoners died. This was during late 1945 and 1946, and it has been documented in the book "Other Losses". The blame for that would appear to fall directly upon the Allied personnel and command structure that ran those prison camps.

If we hadn't won, you'd hear a lot more about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:38 PM

Regarding Generals who had the nerve to stand up to Hitler: those who did were generally removed from command immediately or perhaps arrested and shot, and there were enough loyal and ignorant Nazi underlings around them to accomplish that quite easily if given the order from The Leader. This made it extremely hazardous and difficult for anyone to attempt to buck the offical line coming from Berlin. Even Hermann Goering was ordered arrested by Hitler in the last couple of days for having the temerity to ask if, supposing Hitler should die in the defence of Berlin, Goering should then assume command of what was left of the Reich.

His question was not regarded as a loyal one.

In such an atmosphere of fear, how the hell can officers exercise independent judgement and expect to live long enough to accomplish anything with it?

The same was true under Stalin.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM

Okay - I'm sure it was that book (Other Losses) to which I was obliquely referring. The counter-argument to that book that I recall was to the effect that the starvation of the prisoners was not a deliberate act, as the book had averred - it blamed Eisenhauer, in particular - but was due to a combination of unfortunate circumstances and incompetence ... I don't remember enough of the details of either side of the argument to have anything intelligent to say about it, I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:52 PM

It may have been incompetence. If so, however, consider how it would be viewed if the Germans or Japanese had done it, instead of the Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 02:55 PM

Some did disobey orders, one General was ordered by Hitler to proceed to Berlin to defend the city from the oncoming Russians, he proceeded to surrender his troops to the US Command, at that time other Generals could have also surrendered to the US Command, but decided to continue with the hopeless task of defending the city.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 03:20 PM

German prisoners of war incarcerated in Canada and the US were treated quite well .... some were sent out to various family farms to help out ... I should add SS personel were more securly confined (and quite rightly so).

German prisoners of war on the Eastern front were treated meagerly well if they had specific education and skills that would benefit Russia in itself (i.e. technitions, engineers, scientists or whatever) ... an ex-German Weimarch officer was one of my Prof's, he was captured at Stalingrad and was a mechanical engineer by profession ... though not treated like a prince, he said he had more in regards to food, and medical care than some of the guards and Russian workers themselves. They used his expertise for maintaining machinery in a lumber mill.

"Hitler had entirely lost his mind by the time the Battle of Berlin was underway"

I guess it was the pressure's of the job ... quite lonely at the top I hear.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 04:56 PM

Donuel, don't let your rabid, irrational hatred of George W. Bush impair your otherwise "crystillianly" clear logic as pertaining to other issues.

Yes, Adolf had police watching police that watched the police. After all, you can never be too careful, can you?

All wars have atrocities on all sides. The question raised in the latter portion of this thread is more a question of number and of opprotunity vis a vis a desire to commit the same. Common sense would suggest that the non-aggressor nations would be less apt to indulge in this type of behavior whereas aggressor nation personnel use hatred to feed and foment the aggression.

Nations that ascribe to peaceful co-exisstence and who recognize rule-of-law as paramount keep the value of civilization in the focus of their consciousness. Rome did not like to see its armies returning fresh from the battle for a good reason and Cincinatus was hailed as a healthy role model for the landholder soldier. It was he, you may recall, who, upon return from battle as the conquering general, laid aside his armor and returned to his farming estates, to the relief of Roman citizens everywhere. This is the role Washington emulated at the close of the American Revolution and it has left a deep and abiding impression on America ever since.

Now, having said all that, I've heard the stories and seen the photographic evidence, etc. that SOME Americans do commit atrocites in times of war. These actions are illegal in the US and by international law. We seek to observe the rule of law. They are morally repugnent and terrifying in nature and deserve the sternest rebuke. I believe that our revulsion to just this type of excess has a direct bearing on our tendency to try to quell international conflict by means of "police actions" rather than general warfare. Unfortunately, the results of this sort of thinking are less than encouraging in that commited enemies see our self-limiting as weakness to be exploited (i.e., they are playing by a different set of rules[no-holds-barred warfare]); inappropriate police action encourages esculation; subterfuge in peace negotiations; national self deception in believing that we CAN negotiate peace when a desparate enemy seeks ANY advantage to promote his cause; you can probably come up with a few disadvantages of your own at this point.

It's a hard call. In some ways a superpower is like the parent of naughty warring children. How far do you go to break them up? And before you accuse me of parentalism of America, I readily acknowledge that America can behave llike one of the naughty children too: the greedy big brother who wants to have everything his way. I know that is unfortuantely true. So, where are the parents?

That brings us back to the Rule of Law. THAT is the parent of us all, our higher power, if you will. It is our job and our hope that we have the fairest and most effective laws we can for without them we will surely descened into the pit of war, atrocity, ignorance and want.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:03 PM

LH - Warspite never did make it to the breaker's yard. She ran aground off Cornwall and was broken up in situ. That ship always did have a mind of its own! She certainly surprised the Germans at the Second Battle of Narvik - even her seaplane sank a U-Boat there.

The Germans had nothing heavier than a 12 inch at Jutland. Their earlier ships were armed with 11 inch guns. The later Bayern class had 15 inch guns. But their shells worked a lot better than the British shells, which were too sensitive to penetrate heavy armour.

WW2 prisoners - The Germans and Russians both treated each others' prisoners badly. There's a memorial at the site of the Russian PoW camp near the Bergen/Belsen concentration camp commemorating the 50,000 Russian PoWs who died there of disease and malnutrition.

There were Germans who spoke up and acted against Hitler during his time in power, before and during the war. But he was very much IN POWER.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: mack/misophist
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:57 PM

According to a page on the U of Mo's Law School web site. The great weakness of the German legal/judicial system of the time was that there was no over-riding standard; no tradition of common law, no Declaration of the Rights of Man. Just the laws that were passed. Having no great experience at dissent, the people tended to accept whatever the government handed out. When they did dissent in suffient numbers, Hitler often backed down.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:19 PM

Moorsoldatenlied

(thing) by Redalien (4 hr) (print)    ?    Tue Jun 08 2004 at 22:11:53


Das Moorsoldatenlied (Peat bog soldiers' song) also "Das Lied der Moorsoldaten" (The song of the Peat bog soldiers) was written in 1933 in the Bürgermoor concentration camp, one of the first concentration camps. An "Emergency decree for the security of the people and the state" was issued the day after the Reichstag fire, which allowed members of the KPD (German Communist Party) to be detained without trial. Bürgermoor was mainly filled with political prisoners, members of the KPD and some members of the NSDAP (The Nazi Party).

They were forced to sing pro-Nazi songs, such as the Horst Wessel song. In their spare time, the prisoners sang their own songs. They were also occasionally granted cultural evenings, to perform to highten morale. In August 1933 one was organised, called "Zirkus Konzentrazani" (A play on words with the word for concentration camp). It is the first place the Moorsoldatenlied was performed. Wolfgang Langhoff (a future director of the German theatre) asked Johann Esser to compose lyrics that would not be objectionable to the guards, but which portrayed concentration camp life. The music was written by Rudi Goguel, in the camp hospital after his comrades had faked an injury for him.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wohin auch das Auge blicket,
Moor und Heide nur ringsum
Vogelsang uns nicht erquicket,
Eichen stehen kahl und krumm.

Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor!
Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor!

Auf und nieder geh'n die Posten,
keiner, keiner kann hindurch.
Flucht wird nur das Leben kosten!
Vierfach ist umzäunt die Burg.

Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor.
Wir sind die Moorsoldaten und ziehen mit dem Spaten ins Moor.

Doch für uns gibt es kein Klagen,
ewig kann's nicht Winter sein.
Einmal werden froh wir sagen:
Heimat, du bist wieder mein!

Dann zieh'n die Moorsoldaten nicht mehr mit dem Spaten ins Moor.
Dann zieh'n die Moorsoldaten nicht mehr mit dem Spaten ins Moor.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Far and wide as the eye can wander,
bog and moor are everywhere
Not a bird sings out to cheer us,
oaks are standing gaunt and bare.

We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.
We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.

Up and down the guards are pacing,
no one, no one can break through
Flight would mean a sure death facing,
guns and barbed wire greet our view.

We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.
We are the peat bog soldiers, we're marching with our spades to the bog.

But from us there's no complaining,
winter will in time be past
One day we shall cry, rejoicing:
"Homeland dear, you're mine at last!"

Then will the peat bog soldiers march no more with their spades to the bog.
Then will the peat bog soldiers march no more with their spades to the bog


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are two versions in particular, the Concentration camp version, which had melody by Rudi Goguel. There was also an external verison, arranged in London by Hans Eisler, after an escaped inmate told him about the song. As the inmate was not overly musical, Eisler mistuck the song for a workers' song from the 30 years war. The refrain is the same in both versions, with the concentration camp version being more monotonous "to portray the heavy march of the prisoners through the bog" (Rudi Goguel in an interview with Radio Goethe).

By the end of the war Goguel was no longer thinking of the song, and the first time he came across it again was while staying at the Bodensee. He turned on the radio, and heard the refrain as the station's identifier. "I found out it was the themesong of the German radio broadcast, and after some years I finally learnt what a fantastic journey this song had made throughout the world".

The song was mandatory learning in East Germany after the war, along with many other anti-fascist songs. Many people have released this song, one of the more modern groups to do so was "Die Schnitter" (A word for manual labourers, specifically harvesting crops), who updated the song to be a modern, dancable track. It is on the 2nd Radio Goethe compilation disk, and their 3rd album. Definately worth a listen.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lyrics from learning.dada.at/res/pdf/A005A02.PDF
Interview with Goguel from Radio Goethe, translated by Radio Goethe. Unfortunately I could not get hold of the origional German text from the interview


From http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1541326

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:34 PM

"When they did dissent in suffient numbers, Hitler often backed down."

Any particular examples of this? Just curious.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 10:53 PM

I'd like to know too.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:16 PM

Right you are, Les. You have a good head for remembering the details.

"When they did dissent in suffient numbers, Hitler often backed down."

Now, that's interesting! I believe the same principle applies elsewhere, and it's one that people would do well to remember when their government is out of line.

I believe that it was in Denmark where they refused to obey the occupying Nazi edict in 1940 that all Danish Jews should henceforth wear a yellow armband when out in public. Seems to me, if I recall correctly, that the Danish king reacted by having everyone wear a yellow armband in protest, including himself, and the Germans promptly backed down on the issue and said no more about it (in Denmark). Can anyone confirm that?

Tyranny depends on most people not speaking out or resisting. If only a few do, it's easy to arrest them and silence them, but you cannot arrest an entire country's population, because you need them to accomplish the daily work of the society, and you don't have the means anyway. Thus, I think that mass civil disobedience is the way to go when dealing with such scoundrels as the Nazis (if they're already in charge). Only thing is, you've got to have a population who are willing to risk it, and you've got to have leaders to lead the way whom people will listen to.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,odidnafndnn
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:22 PM

Very off-topic, but we have a possible recent example of the military standing up to another butcher. Old article leading up to an old election, but many believe these men WERE on their way to arrest Clinton:

On April 17th, 1995, I received a telephone call from my husband, Gunther Russbacher. He said, "The war has begun!"

I asked him what he meant. He said a Learjet had just crashed in Alabama. On board were 17 Admirals and Generals. They were on their way to arrest Bill Clinton.

All the military men were killed.

That same day, Sherman Skolnick was told the same thing by one of his sources.

The same day, Oswald LeWinter talked to a reporter for a major New York newspaper. LeWinter told the reporter the same thing -- and it was published -- April 19, 1995.

No one paid any attention to the story because in the early morning of April 19, 1995, the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City blew up....

PRESIDENT'S STATEMENT ON THE C-21 PLANE CRASH--April 18, 1995-- President Clinton stated today that he and Mrs. Clinton were "very saddened" to learn of the crash of an Air Force C-21 aircraft near Alexander City, Alabama last night, with the loss of eight lives. "Our hearts and our prayers go out to the families and friends of those who were killed," he said....

WASHINGTON (AFNS) -- Eight people were killed when an Air Force C-21 Learjet crashed into a wooded area near Alexander City, Ala., about 6:30 p.m. CST April 17.

The aircraft, assigned to the 332nd Airlift Flight, Randolph AFB, Texas, was flying from Andrews AFB, Md., to Randolph, but was diverting to Alexander City Airport, Ala. -- 35 miles northeast of Maxwell AFB, Ala. -- after experiencing an in-flight emergency....

http://www.rense.com/general3/warbegun.htm

...In the spring of 1995, a small group of highly patriotic flag officers were plotting to arrest their Commander-in-Chief Clinton for giving military secrets to the Red Chinese, a sworn enemy of the U.S.; an arrest provided for and authorized under the military code. As titular head of both the U.S. civilian and military Establishment, Clinton, on the other hand, could have arrested the 24 Admirals and Generals for mutiny. If they were not assassinated, they intended to defend themselves with proof, such as Clinton giving, to the head of the Red Chinese Secret Police, in the White Houuse and elsewhere, U.S. financial, industrial, and MILITARY secrets. Giving aid and comfort to a sworn enemy of the U.S., the classical definition of treason....

On Monday, April 17, 1995, a military jet planeload of top military was enroute to Dallas. They had onboard what is not supposed to exist, an American prisoner-of-war, prepared to finger the Pentagon as perpetuated by Clinton, as continuing the POW/Missing in Action cover-up from the Viet Nam war. From sabotage, the plane blew up in the air, killing all onboard, near Alexander City, Alabama. The Pentagon made every effort to cover up what happened. Families of the victims were reportedly not permitted to have any possessions or details. There are strong reasons to believe the plane had a portion of a group of "Seven Days in May" style military officers plotting a coup against the White House. Thereafter, the small group of other flag officers, out of uniform, took up residence in a Paris suburb. A year later, the Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Jeremy Boorda, apparently aware of the coup, was assassinated and covered up as a "suicide", a favorite whitewash by the monopoly press. And about the time of Boorda's murder, was assassinated William Colby, former Director of Central Intelligence. He reportedly was assisting the plotters with detailed data. Colby's death was explained by the pressfakers as a "boat accident", although his friends contend it was murder....

http://www.skolnicksreport.com/okcity.html

(Don't even bother to rant about the sources, etc. Couldn't care less. The discussion of Hitler's generals made me think of this, that's all. Of course, it'll never be proven one way or another).

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:26 PM

I've heard they were just as ruthless in hunting down Jews and and severely punishing anyone who harboured them in Denmark... just like any of the occupied countries.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,odidnafndnn
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:26 PM

"From sabotage" is explained to mean a Stinger missile at other sites.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:42 PM

I'm not sure about it, Bill, but I did read that account at one point. We'll see if anyone can turn up something about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 11:50 PM

It would be interesting to hear anymore regarding that LH.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 01:22 AM

FWIW, when I was a kid, my mother told about me the Danish king wearing a yellow Star of David in sympathy with the Jews; don't remember her saying anything about the rest of the gentile populace wearing them.

Not that she had been in Denmark or anything; it just seemed to be one of those things that was "well-known" among those who lived through those war years.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:10 AM

If so, it's a powerful testament to the courage and character of the Danish king. The people in the Nazi upper echelons tended to be rather impressed by royalty, I think, so his taking of such a stand could have had considerable effect.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:23 AM

I looked it up. Apparently it's a popular and oft-repeated legend among the Danes. It is not literally true, but it is symbolic of Danish resistance. A quote from the article:

"Although the Danes did undertake heroic efforts to shelter their Jews and help them escape from the Nazis, there is no real-life example of the actions described by this legend. Danish citizens never wore the yellow badge, nor did King Christian ever threaten to don it himself. In fact, Danish Jews never wore the yellow badge either, nor did German officials ever issue an order requiring Danish Jews to display it.

But the Danes engaged in symbolic gestures of defiance against their occupiers, such as wearing four coins tied together with red and white ribbons in their buttonholes. Red and white are the Danish colors, and four coins totalling nine ore represented the date of the occupation, April 9.

In the book Queen in Denmark by Anne Wolden-Ræthinge the Danish Queen Margrethe II says about the legend:"It is a beautiful and symbolic story, but it is not true. The myth about the King wearing the star of David ... I can imagine that this could have originated from a typical remark by a Copenhagen errand boy on his bicycle: 'If they try to enforce the yellow star here, the King will be the first to wear it!' To me, the truth is an even greater honor for our country than the myth."


Here's a link to the rest:

Danish Resistance to Nazis

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:49 AM

Have you ever heard the phrase, "Vee haf vays uf deeling mit your kind"? Well, they did. To keep the lid from boiling off the pot the Nazis would publicly back down or seem to aquiesce. In reality they would set another, more subtle organization to work on the problem that wouldn't generate as much public outcry or at least not as much as they cared to handle at the moment. Everyone knew this and still lived in fear. Read "The Hiding Place" re Corrie Tenboom (not sure of the spelling). If there was resistence in villages in France the whole community were sometimes slaughtered to serve notice to others who might want to resist.

Hitler's real genius was in his ability to consolidate power and lead the cheering section. The rest was plain old carrot and stick tactics and they worked just fine. They still do. The shakiest ground he trod was that with his high command. There he played the "Who's watching who?" game to a fare-thee-well as his life depended on it. Loyalties and suspicions. Keep everyone watching everybody else except the man behind the curtain.

Hitler needed to win the war first and then he would be free to deal with little problems like the King of Denmark in his own time. I don't need to recap the history of where he erred strategically or how his growing insanity betrayed him but until then he really had it going. As far as per centages of support goes, you don't really need that much. How many of you have owned voting stock in a company? The owners of just a few percent usually control the whole shooting match. Five or ten percent is a huge advatage and it is seldom challenged. When it is, a proxy fight ensues and most of the sheep, er, I mean shareholders just sign the proxies thinking "Well, they've made money for me in the past" or "they're doing a good job" or "I only have one or two votes". It sounds like modern day politics to me! Much can be done with little as many CEO's, politicians and Hitler know/knew. So while maybe not EVERYONE thought Adolf was the Bee's Knees THEY WENT ALONG! And THAT is all it takes. Welcome to the greasy slide to Hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:18 AM

one General ... proceeded to surrender his troops to the US Command, at that time other Generals could have also surrendered to the US Command, but decided to continue with the hopeless task of defending the city. (Ard Mhacha)

Could they? The US command did accept surrendering only from troops that had fought at the Western front. German troops from the Eastern front had to surrender to the Red Army.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:36 AM

Of course Werner von Braun et al got away with surrendering to the USA...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:40 AM

100 !!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:59 AM

Von Braun, but not et al.
Some of the rocket scientists went East.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:34 AM

Wolfgang I am surprised to have to explain to you, General Wenck crossed the Elbe to surrender the remainder of his 9th and 12th Armies, Wenck was ordered to Berlin by Hitler to defend the city but wisely crossed the partially bombed bridge on the river Elbe and surrendered to US General Moore.

Number 6 would you recommend books by those German prisoners of the Soviets, English translations, or does anyone else have any information.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:42 AM

Wencks army while crossing the Elbe came under fire from the Soviets, they fired back in return and the US forces ignored the German defence of their retreating army,

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:41 AM

"It is a beautiful and symbolic story, but it is not true. The myth about the King wearing the star of David ... "

Ah, well ... I had a twinge of uneasiness when I wrote the words "well-known" ...

I wonder what other myths my mother told me?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:47 PM

Myths were very common in that war. Here are some other examples:

Malta was supposedly defended in the air at one point by only three rather antiquated British Gladiator biplanes named "Faith, Hope, and Charity", and they alone fought off the hordes of German and Italian aircraft. Totally untrue! But everyone on the Allied side believed it during the war, and many still do to this day. It was a story popularized by the British press to raise morale.

Prince of Wales and Repulse were sunk by Japanese aircraft while sitting helplessly at the docks in Singapore. This was told to me by my friend Joe, who had served in Malta, and he believed it. That's what he was told at the time. Untrue! They were sunk while manuevering freely at sea under their full capability. And very quickly and handily too. This was not the story British people wanted to hear, so they changed it.

Adolf Galland was so impressed by British Spitfires as being much superior to German Me 109's that he sarcastically asked ReicshMarshall Goering to give him a squadron of Spitfires when Goering inquired as to what the German fighter squadrons needed to win the Battle of Britain. Not exactly right. Galland and his men loved the Me 109 and considered it the best fighter in the air. They also fully respected the Spitfire as a competitive and worthy opponent, but they did not consider it superior to the 109. The fact is, those planes were just about perfectly evenly matched in 1940-42.

The Italian army always ran away or surrendered. Not true. The Italians often fought very bravely. They were hampered by inadequate equipment...tanks that were poorly armoured and vulnerable, planes that were mostly underarmed and underpowered, and a navy that lacked radar, night fighting capability, and air cover. Given those inadequacies in modern equipment, they were doomed to defeat on the battlefield no matter how brave they were, and this was responsible for badly damaging their morale soon enough...as it would have damaged anyone's morale.

Most of these myths were bent in one direction or another to push a certain propaganda line. That's what happens in war.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 03:52 PM

Little Hawk somewhere above was challenging the still wildly held view that the Germans were responsible for many attrocities in World War 1. It's my understanding that after that War many of these "attrocities" were proven to be Allied propaganda, and that the actual attrocities were pretty evenly divided between the waring parties.

Unfortunately, the debunking reports made it more difficult for people outside Germany in the 1930's to believe the early contemporary reports of assassinations, discrimination, mass expulsions and imprisonment that was actually happening. There was real surprise and shock among the general population when the actual pictures of concentration camp victims were shown in 1944-45.

Charley Noble, whose father was unfortunately named "Adolph" and was viewed with some alarm by his neighbors in our small Maine town during World War 2

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 03:59 PM

The truth was known before 1944 and 1945. It was held back from the 'broadcast news' ... it should not have been a surprise.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:24 PM

Speaking of WWII myths, there's a story doing the e-mail rounds right now that sounds "mythic" but actually seems to be true - at least, it can be traced to an identifiable source in the form of a real person(http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/35/a2674235.shtml). It is one of those feel-good war stories, which we're about due for:

This story was submitted to the site by Chris Chandler of the 8th Air Force Historical SocietyAbout links. He has a video and pictures of the event, and can be contacted on 01234 211026 or at [e-mail].

Charlie Brown's story
Charlie Brown was a B-17 Flying Fortress pilot with the 379th Bomber Group at Kimbolton, England. His B-17 was called 'Ye Old Pub' and was in a terrible state, having been hit by flak and fighters. The compass was damaged and they were flying deeper over enemy territory instead of heading home to Kimbolton.

After flying over an enemy airfield, a pilot called Franz Steigler was ordered to take off and shoot down the B-17. When he got near the B-17, he could not believe his eyes. In his words, he 'had never seen a plane in such a bad state'. The tail and rear section was severely damaged, and the tail gunner wounded. The top gunner was all over the top of the fuselage. The nose was smashed and there were holes everywhere.

Despite having ammunition, Franz flew to the side of the B-17 and looked at Charlie Brown, the pilot. Brown was scared and struggling to control his damaged and blood-stained plane.

Aware that they had no idea where they were going, Franz waved at Charlie to turn 180 degrees. Franz escorted and guided the stricken plane to and slightly over the North Sea towards England. He then saluted Charlie Brown and turned away, back to Europe.

When Franz landed he told the c/o that the plane had been shot down over the sea, and never told the truth to anybody. Charlie Brown and the remains of his crew told all at their briefing, but were ordered never to talk about it.

More than 40 years later, Charlie Brown wanted to find the Luftwaffe pilot who saved the crew. After years of research, Franz was found. He had never talked about the incident, not even at post-war reunions.

They met in the USA at a 379th Bomber Group reunion, together with 25 people who are alive now - all because Franz never fired his guns.

['WW2 People's War is an online archive of wartime memories contributed by members of the public and gathered by the BBC. The archive can be found at bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar'].

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:30 PM

Interesting .... I wonder if that B-17 is the famous picture that has been around for years .... literally shot up beyond disbelieve making one wonder how that the plane could have made it back.

Quite a few stories around that could be credible ... I mean humans are humans ... all the bad and all the good.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:33 PM

"a sliver over 50% of a public to successfully endorse a government policy"

You don't need anywhere near that. In fact Hitler came to power on the basis of 37% of the vote, and a flawed electoral system. That's the kind of percentage that people like that can get in lots of elections today, and it can be enough.

In 1928 the Nazis got 3%; by 1930m it was 17%, and by 1932 it was the 37% that did the trick.

Pretty frightening, when you think of it. We think we're safe...

Here's a YouTube clip of Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:34 PM

That pic is probably one of the ones on this page:
http://blogs.aviation.ca/index.php/steve.php/2006/w50/
...

The implication on that page is that none of the planes in the pics are the actual one in the story.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 04:51 PM

Leni Riefenstahl apparently was one of those artists who got tangled up with the Nazis without really understanding what they were all about. There is a photograph of her, taken by a young soldier who was an admirer, that is one of the most disturbing WWII photos I've seen ... She went along with a military "investigative" detail to the Polish-German border, to a village in which a couple of German soldiers had been murdered. When they reached the village - a Jewish village, I believe - the soldiers rounded up all the local men, then began slaughtering them. Leni Riefenstahl was screaming at them to stop when her admirer took the photo - the expression of horror on her face is chilling ...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:30 PM

There are always plenty of good people under a bad government. Bad governments are quite adept at getting good people to serve them. In any case, once a government is in command of a nation most of the people in that nation will obey orders and perform military duty as required.

If the story about Charlie Brown and Franz Steigler is true, it's one of the great stories to remember. Similar things, similar acts of chivalry, happened in many places. They did not often happen on the Eastern Front, however.

It is unfortunate that the earlier debunking of WWI stories about German atrocities defused people's awareness of what the Nazis were up to. The Nazis were an incomparably more dangerous and irresponsible government than the Kaiser's Germany was in WWI.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:45 PM

I'm not sure about that debunking. Certainly the stories were built up in the press - well you can always believe what you read in the press!! But later historical research claims that at least some of the stories were true, and the German excuse for 6,500 civilian deaths was made up.

click 'ere

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:54 PM

The truth was probably about halfway between the existing extremes.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:02 PM

Modern Myth - WMD in Iraq ....

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 07:20 PM

Future Myth - WMD in Iran?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:02 PM

German atrocities in Belgium in the Great War were used as weapons of propaganda, and individual dramatic stories were invented - but there were atrocities all right, not on the scale of the Eastern Front in World War II, but comparable to what happened in the wars following the breakup of Yugoslavia. Or in Vietnam or Iraq.   

In the period after the war a myth developed that there had been no significant atrocities - and that had an effect of making many people sceptical at the time about talk of atrocities by the Germans in the Second World War. That would have included many Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 08:31 PM

Yes, no doubt it would have.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 10:15 PM

For anyone who is interested in WWI trench-warfare, the book Ghosts Have Warm Hands, by Will R. Bird, is one I can't recommend strongly enough. Bird was a Canadian soldier who went over in 1916 and was there till the end; his account of what he went through is absolutely harrowing ... A propos some of these posts, Bird witnessed some grisly instances of acts of revenge on the part of Belgian civilians against German soldiers who didn't manage to get out quickly enough at the end ...

Another powerful book covering similar ground is the novel Generals Die in Bed, by Charles Yale Harrison, an American who at the age of 16 or 17 enlisted in the Canadian army ca 1914 and went overseas. It is a fairly short book, if time is a factor!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 10:30 PM

"Hitler never hurt a soul, I read it in a book-
That I finished up just this morning,
I was happy and I couldn't wait to tell the good news
To all of my dead uncles"

Dan Bern



I think the initial poster was trolling. ("Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?") You can energize many an economy by spending lots of government money on make-work projects, and particularly if you isolate a portion of the population so you can expropriate all their goods, enslave them thus also expropriate all their services, sell their abandoned properties and businesses, and in the end melt the gold out of their teeth, sell their hair, and heat the atmosphere with their bodies.

Such a miracle Dear, John!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 10:41 PM

Excellent post to this thread auto.

That quote Dan Bern ... very good.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 10:44 PM

my apologies ... I meant robo.

I posted the question up above "what good things did he do"

no replies ... that just about answers it here.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 11:44 PM

Yeah. ;-) Imagine what the Germans would have said about Stalin if they'd won...

He might have edged out Hitler in the "madman and monster" category.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:45 AM

Hi Robomatic
Great start to the last post, but 2nd half was a bit harsh on John! i think this thread is about looking at policies and debating the way they can be adapted to modern living, no one here is in agreement or thinks what Hitler done was a miracle. I think of it like smallpox, smallpox was a terrible disease, it killed millions for many years, now its preventable, scientists study the virus and it has been an invaluable source in understanding how viruses work, and many medical advances have been made because of it. Hind sight is 20/20 vision, lets not waste that, lets use it to move ourselves forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 08:18 AM

That question on the Belgium atrocities in WW1 was later found to be propaganda. My father who was in the Connaught Rangers in WW1 told me it helped recruit many Irish soldiers.
A street in our town is still known as Belgium Row, this row of houses was erected in 1915 for the influx of Belgium refugees, the houses were never occupied by any refugees.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:06 AM

With all due respect to the (memory of?) the man and his war record, not everyone would agree with him on this matter: http://doc-iep.univ-lyon2.fr/wwi/article.php3?id_article=255 (can't seem to get the blue-clicky thing happening) ...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:09 AM

Ard Mhacha - I suggest you do a bit more reading before you come out with such a definitive statement as that. Perhaps you might like to look up the reference I provided a link to.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:26 AM

I disagree that hindsight is 20/20 vision. There is lots of revisionism. Hitler was garbage as a human. That is fact #1. Fact #2 is that he dragged Germany down. Any attempt to portray him as a 'saviour' of the German economy is simply false. War itself generates massive amounts of money and high profits. Economies move when countries are at war. That's partly why we have had so few years of peace. To suggest that Hitler had any sort of wisdom or genius is foolish. It's much like giving Alberta's ex Premier (Ralph Klein) credit for getting the Province out of debt. BULLSHIT. He predicated a budget to get Alberta out of debt based on oil at $18 a barrel. It's somewhere near $60 a barrel and averaged near $40 per barrel over the years and THAT is why Alberta got out of debt. But not all of Alberta, though. We have one of the higer rates of children living below the poverty line in all of Canada.

Lat's not revise history to accommodate shit like Hitler. Or those who were 'with' him in his sick plans.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:36 AM

The other aspect of Ralph's "economic miracle", along with those high oil prices that he had nothing to do with, was the slashing of funding for most government services of all kinds, and the privatization of many government services. Ingenious!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:37 AM

Yeah. Ain't THAT the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: mack/misophist
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 09:42 AM

re German rocket scientists: There were two main installations, Peenemunde and Schweinemunde (sp?). The first did engineering and controls, the second did propulsion. We captured the first and the Russians got the second. Notice that the USSR usually launched heavier pay loads and the US had more reliable hardware.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 02:29 PM

The atrocities in Belgium were real enough, the same way as the pre-war genocide carried out against the Herero people in what is today known as Namibia ("German South West Africa") was real enough.

Essentially was the Germans did was deal with Belgian civilians in something approaching the same way they had dealt with "natives" in Africa. Ironically enough, this was much the same way that the Belgians had treated "natives" in the Congo.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 06:40 PM

It's worth remembering that, even at the start of WW1, Germany hadn't actually been a country for very long (1871). German national politics had to appeal to 'nationalism' to avoid any desire to split back into smaller states. There no real history of democratic government.

French national policy was obsessed by the desire to regain the provinces of Alsace and Lorraine, lost in 1871 at the end of the Franco-Prussian War. France and Germany had years of animosity and conflict between them (there were more Germans on the Allied side at Waterloo than there were British). Funnily enough, it was Napoleon who perhaps started German unity. So the Treaty of Versailles was seen as an opportunity to teach the Germans a lesson. Mistake! The German State was having to find ways of avoiding some of the provisions of this very harsh Treaty long before Hitler came to power.

The UK can share the blame for supporting the French at Versailles. There was a strong campaign to make Germany pay for the War ('squeeze the Kaiser till the pips squeak'). If the 'victors' had listened to USA President Wilson it might just have prevented Hitler's rise to power.

So here's today's lesson in grabbing power. Appeal to people's baser interests. Find someone to blame. Find someone to fear. Promise a much better future. Talk loud and often.

Does this sound like anybody you know? Don't worry it works for all known 'democracies'.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 07 - 07:33 PM

Heh! Great analysis there, Les. Yep, demagogues always use pretty much the same techniques in their unholy abuses of power.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 02:35 AM

I don't think ANYONE is singing praises to Adolf, Peace. But come on, you have to give credit where it is due. He did have a sort of genius, maybe in the truest sense of that word (look it up!). No one else was that bold, knew where and how to grab his power, turn out his enemies, orate, etc. He was a marvel! If it was demagoguery, so what? He made it work. And yes, Joe Stalin was doing an admirable job on his end too! Maybe maddness and demagoguery was the "In Thing" around that time.

Les certainly nailed down Hitler's historical perspective. So much of the nineteenth century mindset lingered into the twentieth. But this is all they or most anyone COULD know. Crystal balls weren't as plentiful as they are today.

And as I stated before, are we going to be able to see it coming again? We now know what to look for if another Hitler shows up on the scene: spot him in an instant. But what will the next one really look like? He'll be an evil genius also but he will look like an angel of light to many with lots of current-time political acumen and savvy. Look out for him but don't expect him to be wearing a brown shirt and swaztikas.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:24 AM

"He'll be an evil genius "

... but maybe his front man (puppet) will look like he can't walk and chew gum at the same time....

what with the way the US 'political machine' works, it seems only a matter of time... not much more 'delay' to go, I'd say.... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 08:49 AM

McGrath you may have added the way the British dealt with the Boers in south Africa, their concentration camps were years ahead of the Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:13 AM

I don't know why even anyone would consider him a genius.

The loss of the war was directly due to his bad judgments, and believe me those bad judgments were "bad calls" ... he wouldn't listen to anyone .... even though he did surround himself with genuises.

Aggressive arrogance, bullying, paranoia, illusions of grandeur, grandstanding should not be misconstrued with being a genius.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:19 AM

A few folks have alluded to or addressed a 'genius' they perceive Hitler to have had. I disagree. He took Germany to ruin. A genius wouldn't have done that. I do not under any circumstance give 'credit' to the scum that appears from time to time in the course of events. I find no admiration for people like him. None at all.

No doubt we'll be talking about Saloth Sar or this piece of trash in the same manner. Talk of how they appealed to the basest instincts humans have and laud their efficiency in accomplishing their 'missions'. Sorry, but not this kid. I think it would have been better for the world had their brains been bashed from their heads at birth. This thread disgusts me. I am off it for good.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:25 AM

well said Peace.

enough is enough.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 11:33 AM

How about an "evil genius"? The character so beloved in great fiction. Could an evil genius not lead a country to disaster? Evil, after all, is a gross misunderstanding of the very nature of life itself. It's a form of gross stupidity or deep unawareness. A lack of empathy for others...if those others are perceived as "different" from oneself. A tendency to always focus on the differences between people rather than the similarities. A desire to divide and separate rather than bring together. Such evil banality of thought can easily be combined with great brilliance and powerful intelligence in a number of areas of life...but is compromised by its inability to use those talents in a healthy manner.

I knew a man who was quite brilliant in a scholarly sense. He had an astounding memory for facts and a tremendously high IQ. He rose high professionally, becoming a nuclear physicist. He earned a big salary and was seen as a success. On a personal level, however, he was an unlikeable, arrogant, mean, petty bastard who treated just about everybody quite badly and had no respect for most other people. He was a jerk. Most people who knew him personally did not like him one bit.

There was a case of great brilliance being combined with a nature that was basically dark and negative and counterproductive. It can happen that way.

A personality is a tool. Like any other tool, it can be turned to good or evil purposes. A brilliant personality is a very sharp tool...capable of accomplishing great good or great evil....even BOTH...depending on which way you turn that tool at any given moment.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:17 PM

Hitler wasn't really that interested in policy decisions. He left many of the decisions to the gang of thugs and toadies who accompaned him to power. The decisions he did make were quite often ridiculous, not the least of which was to wage war on the British Empire, Russia and the USA at the same time. It was Hitler who declared war on the USA in support of his Japanese allies. He could have left it up to the USA to join the war against Germany, perhaps they would have decided to fight Japan only. Russia was not at war with Japan until 1945.

He was also keen on ordering his troops not to surrender, to fight to the last man and the last shell. Now there's a way to gain respect! He ordered the Me262 jet fighter to be built as a bomber instead, even when told that the small bomb load it could carry would reduce its speed to that of Allied fighters. That's not genius, evil or otherwise. He had some cunning, but didn't show great intelligence.

Compare and contrast Winston Churchill, who wanted to micromanage every aspect of the war. General Sir Alan Brooke, Churchill's chief of staff, wrote that "Winston had 10 ideas every day, only one of which was good, and he did not know which it was".

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:20 PM

"How about an "evil genius"?"

How about removing the word "genius" and just going with "evil?"

It doesn't require genius to be evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 12:20 PM

Peace I am sure I have seen all of the postings on this Thread and I am sure all I have read have agreed that Hitler was an evil fanatic, a man like many another, who trampled over the bodies of his own people, a tyrant, but there would be many an argument if he would be considered the worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:10 PM

Trying to find "the worst" in that line would be an open-ended task with no forseeable conclusion, I fear...

Anyone want to question the notion that he was a brilliant orator and motivator of a certain disaffected group of Germans in the 30's and 40's? And that he had extraordinary charisma as far as those people were concerned?

Yes, his rants now sound ridiculous. But it was a different time and place, and you could only know what it was like if you had been there, and had been one of those people who followed him blindly and confidently down the rathole to disaster.

What makes anyone think they have the power to judge another human soul anyway? That is a question to ponder, but most people aren't willing to ponder it.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: bobad
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:19 PM

"The demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots."

H. L. Mencken
US editor (1880 - 1956)

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:23 PM

Ha!!! Excellent quote.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:01 PM

That's understood, Ard Macha.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: ard mhacha
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

Tell that to the people who voted for Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,zDom
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 05:07 PM

Regarding the story of Franz and Charlie:

True story. I heard them tell it in person when I met them at a convention in 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 03:49 AM

Apparently not a one of you bothered to LOOK UP the term "genius". Learn something. Do it.

Mental illnesses are progresive. They get worse. The never stay in the same place. Some of you may have had the opprotunity or the personal misfortune ot have dealt with someone with a serious mental illness. One of the things that makes it so difficult to deal with is that the person may have an intact intellect or even a brilliant mind. Their rationalizations are convincing and they would have YOU believing that it is YOU that has the problem. They usually burn out those who care about them long before the illness has progressed to the point that it is obvious to most everyone that they have a big clinker in their thinker. Such, I am sure, was the case with Hitler.

To borrow a phrase "Evil is as evil does." No, it doesn't TAKE genius to be evil but the enhancement genius can give to evil can enlarge its scope and effect to great proportion and create a surge which can overwhelm a nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: eddie1
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 07:16 AM

Charley Noble

I haven't checked this thread for a couple of days so only caught up with this.
"There was real surprise and shock among the general population when the actual pictures of concentration camp victims were shown in 1944-45"
I know this applied to many, but not all. I visited the site of Dachau Concentration Camp and when I came out was faced with a poster (in several languages) to the effect that my anger should be at National Socialism and not at the town or people of Dachau. Basically, the "But we did not know!" argument.
However, in a book I purchased in the camp was a list of local firms which used slave labour, the name of the company and the number of prisoners used and details of the numbers who died, from overwork, malnutrition or brutality. There were also pictures of these prisoners being marched though the streets to work. The population saw them and could not have failed to see the condition they were in and the way they were treated. The ignorance was not as widespread as many would have us believe.

Nevertheless, I must try to ask myself what I would have done to complain about the treatment of prisoners had I been a German citizen at the time and my answer was not very flattering.

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 02:21 PM

Most civilian people in such a situation would do nothing. They would quite likely assume, first of all, that the prisoners were "bad people" or "a security risk" or "a danger to society" or something like that...just as people would in the USA if they saw a line of prisoners being marched by.

Next, they would not know what to do about it, even if they didn't like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 08:51 PM

The first thought of the huddled masses would most likely have been, "If they can do that to them, then they can do that to me!"

It reminds me of a cartoon I saw once. It showed a number of Jews lined up before a German Nazi firing squad. One Jew is whispering to another 'Be quiet or you'll make them REALLY mad!'" or words to that effect.

Tacit consent. Everyone holding their breath hoping that they weren't going to be the next.

When everyone rises up with one voice, why how comforting to believe that we are all on the same side and that is the correct side! You may not like the dissenting voice. You may be in complete disagreement with it but if you don't hear it YOU ARE IN TROUBLE. Freedom must be for all or no one is free. Argue. It's good. It's healthy but never seek to surpress the voice of dissent because that is the only real indicator that your freedoms are still intact.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 09:59 PM

Norman Mailer has just has out a novel about Herr Adolf; apparently the devil made him do it! Hitler, I mean, but maybe Mailer, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: bubblyrat
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:08 PM

I notice that someone earlier,from the USA,I think,asked the very pertinent question " Where did Hitler get the money from ?? " (in essence). Well,some years ago,I worked at the new headquarters ,in the UK, of CHASE MANHATTAN BANK. Part of my job was to shred "confidential" documents,some of them quite old. In fact,I destroyed THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of "TRADING WITH THE ENEMY " forms, from the WW2 period, which shewed that,whilst Hitler was bombing the crap out of London,Coventry,& other English cities, for Uncle Sam it was "business as usual" with Adolf !! You guys didn"t hate him so much then,did you ? Not while there was a Buck to be made. So now,for "confidential," read PUBLIC..
NOW ---with regard to my earlier posting--I would never DREAM of trying to defend Hitler in any way,but the fact is,whether you like it or not,he was a great and inspirational leader who united a defeated and impoverished people, and VERY NEARLY turned them into the "Master Race " of which he boasted.Luckily for mankind, Hitler eventually disintegrated mentally due to tertiary syphillis, & fortunately for all of us,invaded the USSR. Of course, that let in Stalin, who probably murdered 100 times more people than Hitler ever did........and so it goes on.....

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 10:58 PM

Les from Hull- You made a very good observation that Germany had no real history of democracy. The fact is that until it was forced on them after WW1 few countries democracies 'became democratic, Italy, Germany and some of the components of the Austro-Hungarian empire--Poland, Czechoslovakia, Austria e.g,.   Others became kingdoms in their own right, as Romania, Albania, Bulgaria etc. Most of those democracies did not last through WW11, if even that long. Nor was the Iberian peninsula democratic. Most of the pre-war democracies were in the Americas, with greater or lesser success, perhaps because they were starting from scratch

Democracy is very fragile, especially young democracy. It takes Heraklian effort to produce it in the first place, and pit-bull determination to make it work! Is it any wonder, then, that it is having a difficult time in Iraq, amongst sheikdoms, kingdoms and religious strongmen.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:01 PM

I've got news for you bubblyR. Jolly Old England was trading with him too, at the same time they were fighting him. Hell, we were trading with Japan when we knew that we'd be fighting them soon. Seems I remember a poem about soldiers being killed with part of the old 5th Ave "Ell" (elevated train rails,which were sold to Japan). You know, business is business and you can't let a little thing like a World War to gum up the works!

At the same time you are trying to castigate this nation don't forget the "Lend lease" Act or the Merchant Marines who were going to the bottom of the Atlantic just to supply you with war materials. Don't forget those who worked so hard to position a concensus that would allow this nation to come in on the side of GB. You know, not everyone was FOR it. There WERE two wars against you in our history.

War and Chaos are synonymous. There were contractual obligations which overlapped hostile events. There were debts outstanding that impacted national treasures. There are very bizarre events that occur during times of war some of which just have a superficial connection to the events of war, some have a direct link to the happenings and some just appear in a strange juxtaposition. Maybe you could sort it all out for us and report back. I'd be interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Jan 07 - 11:57 PM

Aussie PM Menzies was known as "Pig-iron Bob" because he sold scrap iron to Japan for many years, in spite of many people saying after Japan invaded Manchuria in approx 1930 that the Japanese planned to keep going south... of course we DID have a 'Yellow Peril' Govt policy for years too...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 08:41 AM

Hi, regarding the "But we Didnt Know" line, a few years ago i was fortunate to work with a man who was drafted into the German Army in 1944. when he was 16, i dont know precisely where he came from, But i seem to remember Belsen for some reason, evidently, he and his friend used to go the woods on the outskirts of the camp and throw potatos and apples over the fence. I dont know if its really true, but i like to think so, an act of human kindness in a world gone mad.
Hey peace, dont feel disgusted at this thread, this is a marvelous way for ordinary people from all countries, from all walks of life to discuss what could one day be a problem again, the first rule of war, know your enemy. and dont be scared of him, Germany 1933 to 1945, all it takes is for good men to do nothing. Were all here doing something!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 10:12 AM

Check this out, a relevant song:
I Was Not a Nazi Polka

"for Uncle Sam it was "business as usual" with Adolf !! You guys didn"t hate him so much then,did you ?"

And then there are all those little people who "just follow orders", by doing little things like destroying confidential documents that might implicate their employers and their employers' friends in some kind of nasty business ...

And Hitler a "great" leader? Come on ... ! Yes, he created some employment and got things organized for a few years, and united his nation in a frenzy of hate and violence ... And that qualifies him as "great"? No wonder Peace had enough of this thread ...

Re: selling scrap iron to Japan. On top of everything else, this was illegal for some years before Pearl Harbour, because of Japan's aggression in Asia.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 11:59 AM

Not too sure whats happening to this thread, some people seem a bit deluded, not one person has said that Hitler was a great leader, it was supposed to disect his early days and see how he made Germanys recovery from the Versailles treaty so spectacular, and is there anything we can take from that. just like the scientists studying smallpox, they dont think that smallpox is a great disease and everyone should have it do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:44 PM

"this was illegal for some years "

ah - maybe n SOME countries, but with no 'International Govt/Law' Nationalism means that what is illegal in one country may well still be legal in another.

For instance, the USA refused to acknowledge international copyright for many years - Charles Dickens for one lost much money because US publishers made much money and 'pirated' his books without payment - one of the reasons why he travelled to the USA. He at least got some money from his personal readings of his works, even though his attempts to get the US lawmakers to stop this piracy failed - much as greedy US moneymakers today are upset with China/Korea/etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 10:41 PM

Stevie D said: "not one person has said that Hitler was a great leader" ...

Six posts above him, bubblyrat said: "he [Hitler] was a great and inspirational leader" ...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 02:36 AM

Guestmeself, yeh, good point, but i do think his statement was directed at the defeated and impoverished people. Thats not his own view. I genuinely dont believe that there are any Nazi sympathisers here. Just people with a genuine interest in political history, of which it is a fascinating era, and does need discussion and debate to try to understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:51 AM

"a genuine interest in political history"

Exactly. People who carry such a giant chip on their shoulders of foaming hatred for Hitler that they can't bear to even hear a balanced discussion about him or about those times seem to me rather like people who don't want copies of "Huckleberry Finn" put in libraries anymore because it contains in its pages the word word "N-----r"!!!!!!!!!!! (which is so terrible that I can't even be allowed to print it out in order to let you know what word I'm talking about...)

People whose massive knee-jerk reaction to something, in other words, makes them want to deal with reality and past history by simply denying massive chunks of it and pasting a huge red "X" sticker over top of them so no one can even see what was there.

That could be indicative of some really deep level of fear, couldn't it? I don't think it's healthy.

There ARE no Nazi sympathizers here, just people with a genuine interest in political history. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 08:55 AM

Well then, using that logic, let's have a balanced discussion of Pol Pot.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:30 AM

Hi Peace, Dont really know too much about Pol Pot, but did his philosophy or vision have any relevance to the world today....
Everything should be a point for discussion, just because its vile and immoral, not openly discussing and talking about these things just breeds ignorance. I want to listen and learn about everything, so go on, please ellaborate on Pol Pot.i´m sure your views will be fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:53 AM

His vision had great relevance to Cambodians. Do some reading and get back when you have, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:55 AM

BTW, Stevie D, your disingenuous claptrap does little. What you have done is express your ignorance. I don't owe you a damned thing, and that includes doing your research for you. So be polite or bugger off.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 10:59 AM

And post under your member name.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:14 AM

If you want to find forums that are relevelant to that era in history regarding Hitler, and his Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei there are plenty out there. They welcome any discussion regarding the contributions he/they made to mankind and history.

Personally I don't think there have been any facts hidden regarding it all and to put it bluntly I'm repulsed by a lot of this banter. Accuse such people as me as having a chip on our shoulders or this post as a knee jerk reaction ... so it be, but the likes of me are not attracted to the dark evil side of mankind. I'm sure a majority of people on this forum feel the same as me.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:23 AM

BTW ... ya I do have fear of it all, how can it to be taken as a healthy approach .... I have held the hands of the survivors, listened to their silence .... so horrifying the memory did not leave them, so horrifying it was passed onto their next generation.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 11:37 AM

"...Part of my job was to shred "confidential" documents,some of them quite old. In fact,I destroyed THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of "TRADING WITH THE ENEMY " forms, from the WW2 period, which shewed that,whilst Hitler was bombing the crap out of London,Coventry,& other English cities, for Uncle Sam it was "business as usual" with Adolf !!"

Only obeying orders, bubblyrat?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:41 PM

Hi Peace
I will do some reading on pol pot, It seems that you mistook my last thread as an insult, i apologise if thats the case. i think my use of the word fascinating was wrong, i should have used interesting. but the sentiment in what i was writing was sincere.So i like to think that i am not ignorant. Also as of yet i havent actually become a member, but it is getting quite addictive, look out for new member "Blindlemonsteve"
Also, time to take a chill pill everyone, ive used this before, and i´ll use it again. this is all about opinions, and opinions are like belly buttons, everyones got one, none of them hold much water......

I am starting to feel that we might have exhausted The Hitler thread. But why on earth would anyone be a communist????

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:47 PM

Hi Peace
Just doing some reading, unbelievable stuff, thanks for the info, i´ll get back to you when i´m done.... see how talking about things works.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 06:53 PM

"think my use of the word fascinating was wrong"

fascinating - describes the bird being stalked by the snake 0 the bird is fascinated...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:37 PM

If you want to know why someone would want to be a Communist, I guess the best thing to do would be to read books about different people throughout history who decided to be. People like Che Guevara, for instance. There are plenty of good reasons why people do the things they do. It depends a lot on the circumstances around them. Most of the people who became communists did so because they genuinely thought it would help the oppressed people in their society and bring down the rich oppressors. And sometimes...it did. Depends when and where.

Communism, like anything else, can be used for good or evil. Same goes for capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jan 07 - 07:40 PM

Pol Pot is definitely worth discussing. The more people know about the Khymer Rouge and their atrocities, the better. It might help stop it from happening again.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 12:14 AM

Stevie D: I misunderstood. My apologies to you and thanks for the explanation.

Fact is, I find nothing at all to like, admire or think highly of with people like Hitler. Too many times I have heard the ill-informed say things like, "He did some bad things BUT he got the economy going." He was a mass murderer, period. I did not yesterday, do not today nor will I tomorrow find anything about him worthwhile. Fatuous stuff like, "But how could a vegetarian DO something like that?" really gets my crank turned. He was shit as an artist, shit as a human and shit as a leader. The staging of his speeches was dramatic and planned. But not by him. He was just another small time piece of crap who decided to try and exterminate a whole people. Some folks here find it unreasonable that people like me can't sit and calmly discuss him. Let me ask this of those posters: How is it that you folks can?

I have lost two friends because of this thread, not that that will have any importance to anyone but me. However, I would gladly lose every friend I have before engaging in any discussion that begins with the premise that Hitler was human. He was trash. Period. And I will never see it any other way.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:18 AM

Peace has encountered absolute evil! Hitler started life as a stinking disgusting infant with horns and a tail and whoy his mother just didn't stomp him to death there and then is beyond me. Why did that insensitive little bastard drink his mother's milk. If his father beat him whoy didn't he just beat him to death.

You really don't have anything good to say about Adolf Hitler? His art was shit? He wasn't a great artist but he was better thatn some who have appropriated that title.

Hitler was a phenomenon. He was a man in a moment of history. Time and circumstance had as much to do with it as anything. He caught the wave and rode it. He WAS the man in the moment. That is NOT a VALUE judgment. It seemed preternatural how he overcame obstacles and avoided calamity. And just so (not unlike Pompeii) when things turned, he could do no right (move). Not a value judgment. He was a phenomenon.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:39 AM

No doubt.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:39 AM

Hi Peace, I dont think that anyone would say that Hitler was admirable, likeable, or that they thought highly of him, its just an open ended discusiion on how Germany ressurected itself from the harsh treatment they recieved after WW1, of course really that is about Hitler and his henchmen. its understandable why people dont want to talk about him, and its for many different reasons. But as its been said in this thread, Stalin was responsible for just as many attrocities, and oppression of many more people,but talking about him would be ok.Maybe human nature makes the enemy of your enemy your friend. The truth is that Hitler was an evil little man with sordid little view, which unfortunately he was born in an era where people were so desperate they were looking for easy answers. probably a situation that most of us could never comprehend. He got lucky, the German people were conned the whole world learnt a valuable lesson. At a high cost to the european Jewish community.
But if we dont talk about it, if we dont discuss it and disect it bit by bit, and teach our children about what happened, how will they know when the next evil little dictator comes along, because you can be assured, the world isnt finished with these people yet. If the German people had had the knowledge we now have, Hitler would never have swept to power. As for Adolf Hitler as an individual, the only good thing he done was put a bullet in his head, shame it wasnt 15 years earlier and shame Joseph Stalin wasnt with him.
Also, a friend isnt a friend if they wont accept your views or opinions, dont worry about them Peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:53 AM

Hi, Stevie. I have discussed the Nazis with one of my children. The other child is special needs. Hitler would have had her killed.

What you say about Stalin is true also. His intentional starvation of millions of Ukrainians puts him beyond the human family, IMO. However, to say one guy is as bad as the other simply says they are equals. They belong to a club the world could do without. As to learning from them, yes. We could learn that it's best to seek and destroy things like that after the first few hundred murders. After the first few million, we then think we have something to learn from them. Funny how we don't see ourselves thinking we have something to learn from Clifford Olsen or Charles Manson. We just see them as mentally disturbed people. I simply see Hitler and Stalin in the same light.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:08 AM

I think for all the breast beating, those who want to investigate the Hitler phenom as if it were the smallpox have done precious little by way of investigating. So I maintain that this thread has been largely troll inspired. That impression is reinforced not only by the paucity of hard analysis or original thought but by the constant use of guest-names.

I think Communism and Nazism were (and are) pretty much the same thing, as if the evil left and the evil right met behind the back and shook hands. Both survived on exploitation, totalitarian terror, military domination of weaker neighbors, and Big Lies. The Nazi phenomenon was built on a pseudoscience of racism tied to a perverted survival of the fittest. The Communist world was built on a pseudoscience called Dialectical Materialism which among other things denied proper Darwinism (and had a racist element all its own).

People who met the Nazi leaders at Nuremberg were moved to remark on the 'banality' of evil.

Saddam used Stalin as his model to power. Both Iraq and Russia are going through Hell in the wake of their perverted leaderships, which spent years eliminating any viable alternates.

Watching Hitler speechify is an absolutely chilling experience. There was some speech he was making to the workers where he said something like progress in labor relations had been made difficult by the labor unions, "so I eliminated the labor unions"! It was hard to tell if he meant this humorously, sardonically, or as a straightforward progress report.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:28 AM

Hi Peace, I now fully understand why you wouldnt want to discuss Hitler, and anyone who doesnt isnt worth your time.
As for Clifford Olsen and Charles Manson, they are worth learning about, i know that Ted Bundy is a serious point of discussion when studying to become a phyciatrist. I dont know where you come from, But In london there were a couple of Brothers called the Kray twins, they were evil beyond comprehension, but they took in the public. now they almost have cult status, If they had been politicians who knows what would have happened.i know places in East london where you wouldnt dare say anything about them, you would be lynched. But they are interesting to read about and learn about. Knowledge is power. you can get a balanced view if you try to see it from the other persons side.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:51 AM

I both agree and disagree, Steve. I think that it is important to 1) understand they were/are 'outside of sanity' in human terms, and 2) even figure out how they got to be that way. But I know it is anathema to me to discuss them in terms generally reserved for humans when 'feral' would likely be more accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 03:54 AM

Ok Peace. I'm gonna flip-flop now! On your side! I get really sick about the endless train of "entertainment" traffic on the telly about killers and serial killers, chainsaw massacres. blood and guts and the thing I really hate are the one's who depict the detective "GETTING INSIDE THE MIND OF THE PSYCHOTIC KILLER". Aaaaagh! that's the last place I want to be. It does not interest me.

I'd like to see more programing about getting inside the heads of successful people, helping people, uplifting people, good people, scientists and artists and healers, people who further the race of man. It's good to know your enemy but it's not good to become fixated on him. Wise and alert is good enough but the filling of our minds and our lives should be on the positive aspects of life.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:55 AM

"At a high cost to the european Jewish community."

Ah - the 'kidnapping of history' again.... lest we forget the mentally deficient, the gypsies, the priests, the communists, any who did not support 'the cause', und so weiter...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 05:57 AM

Yes. But not six million of them, Robin.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:05 AM

More than enough to not be wilfully forgottne Peace. And he started on the non-Jews FIRST, before he was able to get away with actually starting on the jews...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:17 AM

Yes, you are right.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:45 AM

Hi All
This is all getting silly, i have had enough, Peace, i think we found some mutual territory, it has been great debating with you, you have one new friend to replace the one you lost. Slag, you are absolutely right, society should give more time to finding out what makes great people tick, but unfortunately that doesnt make good T.V or sell papers.
foulestroupe, must you take absolutely everything and turn it to make other people look like they dont have a clue what theyre talking about, its very pragmatic, and i´m sure it doesnt do you any good. Do you honestly believe that i didnt know about the Mentally deficient, Gypsies, homosexuals etc etc. i was just pointing out the most persecuted for a general discussion, this is not an essay for gods sake. and your line about my use of the word fascinating was just pathetic, i only wish i were as perfect as you.

See ya all soon with my new member name blindlemonsteve

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:58 AM

I was trying to figure out blindle monsteve. LOL.

Pleasure to meet you Steve. You are one heckuva nice guy.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:13 AM

"foolestroupe, must you take absolutely everything and turn it to make other people look like they dont have a clue what theyre talking about, its very pragmatic, and i´m sure it doesnt do you any good.

Personal attacks are not tolerated here at Mudcat I've been told and so this thread should now be closed?   :-)

"Do you honestly believe that i didnt know about the Mentally deficient, Gypsies, homosexuals etc etc. "

I'm NOT telepathic!

"was just pointing out the most persecuted"

Well I suppose 6 million is "more persecuted" than the 1-2 million or more 'others' - number unsure because no records were kept of many Russians and others - the main "numbers' come from the obsessive record keeping of those in the 'extermination camps' - we may never know just HOW many others were butchered.

"this is not an essay for gods sake."

... nor is this place intended as a forum for one sided dogma.

"and your line about my use of the word fascinating was just pathetic"

... just because you didn't think of it first...

"i only wish i were as perfect as you."

Marty?!!!!

"Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble,
When you're perfect in every way.
I can't stand to look in the mirror,
I get better looking each day
To know me is to love me.
I must be one hell of a man
Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble
But I'm doin' the best that I can"

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: number 6
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:02 AM

"The other child is special needs. Hitler would have had her killed. "

Exactly Peace.

I should also add ... some of us members in the Cat, he would have had murderd.


As I mentioned ... if one wnats to discuss the merits of Hitler ... go find yourself "one of those forums" out there on the web ... they will be more than willing to discuss those merits with you. We don't need this crap here on the Mudcat.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:17 AM

"discuss the merits of Hitler ... go find yourself "one of those forums" out there on the web ... they will be more than willing to discuss those merits with you. We don't need this crap here on the Mudcat.
"

I tend to agree number 6. Especially since most of this type of contentious thread seem to be started by the anonymous, with lots of contributions from those with a particular axe to grind (many of them non-members) - and who don't seem to display a great deal of 'balanced thinking' but get very touchy if their particular worldviewpoint is 'threatened'.

Perhaps we should consider telling Max & Jeff that all BS threads should only be started by registered members. ???

Perhaps some threads such as this could be 'marked' to only be POSTED TO by registered members too? :-)

And while it is fun to occasionally 'shoot the breeze' with other musos - this IS a 'Music Forum' - and even though the BS area is a bit like a "Green Room" area - the place seems to be overrun with non-muso stirrers who often seem to have little use for the music area....

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:19 AM

200!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 08:23 AM

200

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 10:51 AM

I now have 200/200 vision.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 01:29 PM

Hi foolestroop, no personal attack intended, just pointing out that the nit picking does not do anyone with your intellect any justice. thats all, and as i know, i am not the most eloquent writer of the English language, as my academic education was somewhat limited, but i have been round this world kept my eyes open, read books, listened to many peoples stories, lived and worked in different countries. i feel that this more than makes up for a lack of higher education.
So i apologise if you feel i personally attacked you, it was not my intention, ive never personally attacked anyone in my life, why would i start with a stranger.
Peace, the feeling is mutual, and Blind Lemon Steve its a mickey take on the great blues players of the past, i.e Blind Jake, Blind Lemon Jefferson. etc, well thats it for me now, i´m off, chat with you all on lighter topics....

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 06:57 PM

I am intrigued that you claim to be able to judge my intellect from just a few random written ramblings!

"nit picking"

Irrespective of anyone's intelligence and/or education - good discussion on any topic is not served by merely promoting one narrow viewpoint and ignoring many other well known ones.

"i am not the most eloquent writer of the English language"

Language and it's proficiency therein is just like any other musical instrument - the more practice, according to certain ruled based philosophy, the more technical skill achieved. Now I am aware some some people will never progress as far as others in some fields - for me , I hit the wall with calculus: even though I could 'intuit' and visualise what was happening, the ability to perform the maths was beyond me as i do not have a mind that could memorise and recall all the 'magic transformation' formulas. These days I am finding that my ability to type accurately is decreasing, and I rely heavily on my little ieSpell plugin.


"as my academic education was somewhat limited, but i have been round this world kept my eyes open, read books, listened to many peoples stories, lived and worked in different countries. i feel that this more than makes up for a lack of higher education."

I believe Mark Twain said that he never let his schooling interfere with his learning.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Stevie D
Date: 25 Jan 07 - 01:37 AM

what ever, goodbye.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Carl
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 04:38 PM

The history of the evolving of the NSDAP is interesting. -I have read that prior to Hitler making a run at the Chancellorship, he had received campaign funding from the banking community -including some of the Jewish banking community. Then, at about the same time, or shortly after winning in the election with Hindenburg, the "International" organized Jews declare global (economic) war against Hitler/NSDAP Germany. I believe there was a front page headline story in the London Daily Telegraph (?) reporting on global Jewish outrage with Hitler. No doubt there were even some Jews who considered an NSDAP Germany better than a communist Germany. Certainly, many non-communist leaning German media had been frequently reporting on the Stalinist mass-murdering atrocities occuring at the same time that the NSDAP is growing and competing for popular votes against a growing communist population. The bankruptcy visited on Germany during the Versailles-Wiemer years produced a material deprivation in the public that makes things ripe for communist influence. Keynes pointed out there would be problems because of Versailles measures. There is a runour that Keynes estimated that it would take about 20 years for Germany to ultimately reject the Versailles measures and cease compliance.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:21 PM

Excellent post GUEST Carl. Looking back on history can sometimes be like looking at a still life in a museum. We tend to forget that things were in a state of flux and very dynamic. Much was new and revolutionary. True colors were not flown. Secret alliances were made. The cards were held close to the vest.

In regards to some of the steam of the January postings I would just like to say that a discussion of Hitler's merits (if any) is just an academic exercise, a moot court, if you will. For any here to really suggest Hitler should be admired for something he did that went "right" is ludicrous or just "Troll chum". Those people DO exist, however. I've seen them in the news and in documentaries re the "Aryans" and so forth. I cannot believe that there are any among us and to suggest otherwise would be an egregious insult.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:03 AM

Hitler didn't live in a vacuum.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:34 AM

No he didn't and there sure were a lot of folks out seig heiling him when he addressed the masses.

I got to thinking about foolestroope and guest Steve's tet a' tet above and you know, it's a definitive thing among those who suffer from megalomania: whatever the perceived problem is, it's always somebody else's fault. If the afflicted person happens to be "Fearless Leader" then it's, what? the Jews? (ratta-tat-tat-tat) the Gypsies? (ratta-tat-tat-tat) the blacks? (ratta-tat-tat-tat) and__________ fill in the blank (ratta-tat-tat-tat). If they could possibly go on long enough they would wipe out everyone and even then were they to look in the mirror they would never see the one who was really to blame.

And thinking about that makes me appreciate the character and stature of George Washington who, in the tradition of Cincinnatus, walked away from power and all that seems to offer and returned to the farm. What a great American tradition! One term, two at the most and no more. No dynasties (Mr. Bush, Mrs. Clinton)! Get some one new in there. New ideas, new solutions, new directions upward.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: GUEST,Mary
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:21 AM

I read that Hitler got money from Bush's grandfather and
others from America until the FBI stopped it.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:15 PM

Let's face it- a dictatorship is the most efficient form of government. It's much simpler to get things done when there's no effective opposition. Sadly, there's no guarantee that the things that get done will be good things.

One of the glories of a democratic government is its difficulty in making drastic changes.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:47 PM

dictatorship is the most efficient form of government

Efficiency? Seems to me doing stupid and destructive things -- even if done quickly and smoothly -- is highly counterproductive, and therefore no more "efficient" that dropping a match in your gas tank in order to efficiently justify buying a new car. Getting a bad job done is not efficiency, it's just clever insanity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Adolph Hitler
From: Slag
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 09:08 PM

So what were the monarchs? Ruled by divine right. Face to the ground and "off with their heads" if you dared peeked. Yes, I know that that extreme was eventually moderated (in most places) by historical factors, not the least of which were mass printing and concomitant education. Yes, a benign and enlightened, caring dictatorship would be the best government: for the productive life-span of that individual and then...

Subject: RE: BS: Adolf Hitler
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:14 AM

Dictatorship is clearly best, but only if I am the dictator. Anyone else would make a hopeless hash of it. Who was it said that democracy is the worst way of choosing a government, except for all the others?

Subject: RE: BS: Adolf Hitler
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:20 AM

Hitler didn't live in a vacuum.

yeh pity about that!

Subject: RE: BS: Adolf Hitler
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:34 AM

My daughter made the point that one or another A.H. managed to persuade an awful lot of people that his way was right well before he gained the military muscle to push though things by force. As she is studying history and philosophy she therefore read Mein Kampf in order to increase her understanding how this happened. Now everyone assumes she supports the Nazis just because the book is on her shelf even though virtually every other point of view is also represented. It would be simple to throw the book away to reduce the problem, but that's just another variation of book - burning.

It is over-simplifying to just say Hitler was a bad man as if that's all there was too it. But its almost impossible to have any discussion beyond that without people assuming you are a supporter of him.

And just in case you fall into the trap of thinking I am defending the Nazi regime in any way: my sister lives near the Belsen-Bergen camp and I usually spend an hour or two there when I visit her. On one occasion we went with a German friend of hers who had offered some bread to a Jew when they were being marched into the camp. Straightaway, one of the guards cut off her arm with a bayonet. Stories like that highlight the reality of the regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Adolf Hitler
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 09:43 AM

Its not that. we regularly have threads rubbishing people like davy graham, and ewan macColl.

its just abit disconcerting to find a thread asking us to look for the redeeming qualities of Adolf Hitler on the same page.

You can't help feel - perhaps the emphasis is wrong.

Well I feel the emphasis is wrong, anyway!