BS: Give em shit, Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 10:10 AM

That I agree with. Because it jives with the Top Cop having his resignation accepted. However, when the Government found out they did their best to get it fixed. And that's a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 13 Feb 07 - 12:43 AM

I was hasty in making that assertion. However the US detained him based on information coming from Canada. And Canada tipped off the US that he was entering the US through Vienna.

Now, If you have sources saying anything different let's see them.

The US sent him to Jordan. Jordan sent him to Syria. Where did Canada say to send him?

If Canada did not want the US to detain him why didn't they say let him go on to Canada and we will detain him. Apparently they wanted him sent to Syria to be Interrogated there.

You have to know the actions of Canada before you can lay this at anybodys feet but it appears you know very little and you are not interested in finding out.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 05:39 PM

Yes, Dickie, you need sources.

1. You say Canada instructed the U.S. to detain Arar.

Proove it.

The U.S. questioned Arar based on information supplied by the RCMP.
The U.S. sent him to Jordan and then to Syria to be tortured, Canada did not.

The Canadian government found that he was innocent. The U.S refuses to be held accountable for their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:58 PM

"I repeat: I will admit that the US has made mistakes but I am not going to hang my head in shame because other countrys make mistakes too. "

Better we all try to get our respective countries to stop making the same mistakes again and again. Now we have common ground. Thank you, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:49 PM

I don't have any. Do you? Why did the US retain Arar? Where are your sources? I need sources but you don't need sources?

As to you last mean spirited, attack the messenger statement, you can go right ahead and defend the perfect Canada of your dreams, expose your lack of knowledge and civility by attacking those that do not agree with you.

I repeat: I will admit that the US has made mistakes but I am not going to hang my head in shame because other countrys make mistakes too.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:30 PM

Dickey - Please reply.

I'd like to see your sources that say the Canadian government instructed the U.S. to detain Arar.

btw - I don't know where you are from, Dickey, but where I'm from, "give em shit" means stand up for yourself or talk back or don't take it or call them on their 'bs'. Calling the phrase 'mean-spirited' is stretching it a bit.

You go right ahead and defend the perfect America of your dreams. In my mind, the only way to preserve democracy is to question authority. Blind allegiance is just plain ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:29 PM

The last post was mine.

I will admit that the US has made mistakes but I am not going to hang my head in shame because other countrys make mistakes.

I am not going to try to equate, quantify or justify one mistake against the other but merely point out the fact that everybody makes mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:04 PM

"If ya didn't know where this was from, how would ya tell?"

I don't know Guvnah.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:02 PM

The attack is in the title of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 03:00 PM

From here maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:51 PM

Dickey--where did the attacks start?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:50 PM

Regarding the death penalty. The Khmer Rouge, Argentinian junta, Chilean military put everyone to shame. And what the world is presently allowing in the Sudan is shameful. Of course, people have become fodder for multi-nationals and 'national interests', whatever the disguise, and I suppose we all share in that shame.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:48 PM

The last post was mine.

"You might stop pretending that yours does"

I am not pretending anything. I am merely placing this mean sprirted, holier than thou attack in the perspective that you lack.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:47 PM

If ya didn't know where this was from, how would ya tell?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:45 PM

Overview of the death penalty worldwide in 2006

Looks like Iran tops the list. They hang people there for drug violations.

Saudi Arabia publicly beheaded 35 men and 4 women for murder and drug offences.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:39 PM

I have addressed more than once on this thread issues and history in which I think Canada has acted dishonourably. I do not let my country off the hook simply because it's my country. You could take a lesson from that. I personally have no wish to pillory the USA. I lived and worked there for about five years. I am close friends with many Americans, but we don't allow politics to get in the way of those friendships. Canada has some seriously bad history to do with Native peoples, minorities, and we do have a language issue. We tend to behave as badly in war as any other country. War seems to bring that out in soldiers far too frequently. I do not pretend that my country has clean hands. You might stop pretending that yours does.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:34 PM

Yes. And that issue has been and continues to be addressed by Ottawa. It's a smear on the country. No doubt about that. But other than an attack on Canada, what is your point?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:33 PM

Peace:

I am glad to see you are considering ALL the countries involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:31 PM

Genocide in Canada: The Untold Story

""I believe the conditions are being deliberately created in our Indian boarding schools to spread infectious disease. The death rate often exceeds fifty percent. This is a national crime."
Dr. Peter Bryce, Chief Medical Officer, Department of Indian Affairs, April 15, 1907

"Then he kicked her. She went rolling down the stairs. She just lay there. She wasn't moving; she wasn't breathing. I see that all the time."
Harriett Nahanee, eyewitness to the murder of Maisie Shaw, age 14, by Alberni Indian Residential School Principal Alfred Caldwell on December 24, 1946..."

At least here is one person that has the guts to say what he believes.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:30 PM

Both World Wars certainly brought out the propaganda from ALL the countries involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:24 PM

Bell ringer

Another

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:01 PM

You are right about that, GUEST. I was twice at demonstrations in Montreal over just that involvement. We have had more than our share of sleazy politicians in Ottawa. As many as the USA in Washington. To quote me ol' Pappy, "There is NO point talking morals is a whore house."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:52 PM

"..In Canada, Diefenbaker's Conservative Party supported the U.S. policy in Vietnam.
His external affairs secretary stating in 1962 that "any action the U.S. has taken has been in a measure of defence against communist action."

In 1965, Paul Martin spoke for the Pearson (Liberal) government, stating that "the American forces were in their right in answering those attacks against them and South Vietnam as provided by section 51 of the United Nations Charter" (a section restricted to members of the UN, a status not held by "South" Vietnam.)

The Canadian ICC contingent twice offered legitimation for U.S. troop intervention and air war over North Vietnam; it furnished the U.S. with strategic intelligence about the location of enemy troop movements; and it acted as messengers by relaying threats issued from the American military. One Canadian retired military officer once stated that he was "bloody ashamed of some of the things I was required to do..."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:51 PM

Have a nice day, Dickey. I have no more time for you today. When you wish to discuss wrongs--even American wrongs--then perhaps we'll have some common ground. As it is we have a simple misunderstanding complicated by a fervent hatred for each other. Also, FYI, when Canada drops the ball--which it does--I have written to the existing government to express my displeasure. I personally doubt you have ever taken the time to do that with your government, either State or Federal.

Please notice that it was me who posted the first comprehensive statement about Canada's screw up in the Arar affair. You are so fuckin' blind that you can't even recognize that your country has buggered up. That makes you the worst kind of patriot--the same kind that spout "My country right or wrong" or "Kill a commie for Christ". Nope. No more time for you today.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:44 PM

I take it that this was a vietnamese prison?

Tom Harkin, then an aide to the congressional group, convinced two of the Congressmen to investigate stories of torture in the Tiger Cages off the coast of Viet Nam (the French built them in 1939 to hold political opponents; similar ones in French Guinea became famous in the movie Papillion, starring Steve McQueen and Dustin Hoffman).

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:37 PM

"Unlike the CIA and FBI who drop the fuckin' ball completely"

What did the Canadian equivalents to the CIA and FBI do with the ball? England? Spain? Indonesia?

How about other countrys of the world? Why not put the 10 million candlepower spotlight on them? Was there bombings in Europe? Indonesia?

When the US acts proactively to prevent terrorist attacks it is a blunder.

When the US does not act proactively to prevent terrorist attacks it is a blunder.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:25 PM

"An ABC TV show recently did an expose on slavery as it exists today. It focused on three countries: India, Brazil, and the United States."

The capitalized stuff was MY title. Notice that the title is NOT included in the quotation marks. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:24 PM

Try reading the WHOLE article. The quoted stuff is FROM that page.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:22 PM

Your link "from here. Just for Dickey!" points to an article entitled "Modern Day Slavery Around The World"

The phrase "Slavery in the US" does not appear on that page, yet you say it is from that page.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:16 PM

"Again, focus on the US. Ignore what it says about other countries. Only the US matters for some reason."

Bullshit. Read the link associated with my post on that. It mentions many countries, NOT just the US. Keriste, you are so narrow-minded your scratch pads are 1/4" wide.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:16 PM

"I am very happy that he's alive"

Sounds poaitive to me.

"I've heard a lot about what happens there"

How much of that is truth and how much is hearsay, rumors or a product of the Al Qaeda handbook:

"Lesson Eighteen
PRISONS AND DETENTION CENTERS

2. Complain [to the court] of mistreatment while in prison. "

What have we "heard" about other prisons like the ones in Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:13 PM

"I think the title of this thread is quite pissy."

Then take it up with the thread originator.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:05 PM

"Did Canada support Arar when he was detained by the US government as instructed to by the Canadian government?"

I'd like to see your sources that say the Canadian government instructed the U.S. to detain Arar.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:02 PM

"The surprising thing is that it actually goes on in the United States.

Again, focus on the US. Ignore what it says about other countries. Only the US matters for some reason.

The article is titled "Modern Day Slavery Around The World"

Which you renamed to "Slavery in the US"

Newsweek Magazine (May 4, 1992) reports that slavery is widespread in two African countries, Mauritania and Sudan. In Mauritania, over 100,000 Africans are enslaved. Their families were made slaves by the sword during the 12th century invasions. In the centuries that followed, they accepted it as natural."

What are you doing to abolish slavery?

The American Anti-Slavery Group is a U.S.-based non-profit dedicated to the abolition of modern day slavery. While many believe that the slave trade ended some time ago, there are still over 27 million people held in bondage today.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:50 PM

"you got pissy about Canada"

I think the title of this thread is quite pissy.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:48 PM

"Fuck you and the horse you rode in on. "

Very peaceful statement there. Yell that the world over and peace will inevitably follow.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:46 PM

"So, Dickey, what are you doing to make the world a better place?"

Putting things into perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:41 PM

"according to Ward Churchill"

"Interim Chancellor Phil DiStefano stated, ""While Professor Churchill has the constitutional right to express his political views, his essay on 9/11 has outraged and appalled us and the general public."

Following an investigation of Churchill's past research, the University's Standing Committee on Research Misconduct recommended Churchill be sanctioned for repeated acts of "serious research misconduct." On June 26, 2006, CU Interim Chancellor Phil DiStefano issued a notice of intent to dismiss Churchill from his faculty position at the University of Colorado Boulder. Churchill has been "relieved of his duties by interim chancellor Phil DiStefano.."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:40 PM

Dickey: I happen to like the US. I did not start slagging it until you got pissy about Canada. In fact, I am one of the Canucks here who has spoken on behalf of the US on Mudcat, and very often too. As for Maine and people streaming across the border, "So what?"

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:37 PM

And what pray tell is Washington's position on Darfur?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:36 PM

"Dickey, Dickey, Dickey. Your hatred for Canada is obvious."

I like Canada except for the attitude of some Quebecois and the holier than thou attitude towards the US coming from a few Canadians.

I have been there several times, I think is is clean, neat spacious, cordial etc. As a matter of fact I have been to all provinces except the NWT, Nunavit, PEI and Newfoundland

Now suppose I said that "your hatred for the US is obvious"?

I have seen Canadians streaming across the border in Maine to shop at the Walmart so something here in the US must be OK.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:32 PM

SLAVERY TODAY IN THE USA

"And that brings us to the United States. The slavery uncovered in the United States was not prostitution like in Brazil. It was not manufacturing work like in India and Pakistan. It was not household servant like in Kuwait. But it was worked a lot like them.

A guy would go around places where unemployed people would hang out and offer them jobs working on a farm. "It's just temporary" they would say. A farmer would need help picking his oranges or his cotton or his sugar cane just for a few weeks. They could all ride up there, work for a few weeks, and come back to the city with a few dollars in their pockets. People were picked up in all the major cities of Florida. They would load up in vans and station wagons and head out. They would go to places like Georgia and South Carolina.

When they got there they moved into a compound surrounded by fences and barbed wire. Vicious dogs patrolled all night. The bosses got them up early. They were worked hard all day long. They were charged room and board that was more than they got paid. They were encouraged to buy liquor and drugs on credit.

None of the workers was allowed to leave. When they worked, they had a overseers armed with shotguns. They were marched to work, and marched home again. They never saw a telephone. They never saw an outsider. And they picked cotton all day long. Sometimes it was other crops.

Sooner or later the cotton would be picked, and the workers would want to go home like he promised. But they could not leave. They owed a lot of money. So the boss took them out late at night and drove them to some other big farm where they needed help with the crops, and it started all over again.

These places were all on private property, far away from the road. They never saw any outsiders. No one knew they were there. If anyone knew, they didn't care. The people they worked for and that the boss got paid by were rich important people in their area. The workers were nobody.

Most of the slaves were poor black people, but some of them were poor white people too. In this one operation, it was actually a black man who was the slave driver.

Some of the people rescued had been slaves for years. Others were younger. One young black man talked about how now he finally knew what it was like for his ancestors. He said he would never pick cotton again, not for all the money in the world.

As you can see, there is still a lot of slavery in the world today. As long as people want to make money, some will want to steal. Slavery is the worst kind of stealing. They don't just steal your money. They steal your life, your freedom, everything.

It was not long ago when slavery was completely legal in the United States. It was accepted that people could be stolen, kept prisoner at gunpoint, and forced to work. It was accepted that you could be beaten or whipped if you didn't work fast enough.

Now these things are illegal, but the law still helps the slavemasters. Unions can't get to farm workers because they are on private property. The law keeps them out. So no one can find out that maybe they are being kept as slaves.

People own these giant plantations that need a lot of workers and make it pay to steal them. If these were small farms the workers would get paid. Some of these families have had these big farms ever since the days of slavery."

from here. Just for Dickey!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:26 PM

So, Dickey, what are you doing to make the world a better place?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:23 PM

Ottawa's position on Darfur is, thus far, one of hesitation.



"You could call it a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.Almost by accident, Canada has found itself uniquely positioned among the United Nations' member states to put in motion a multilateral initiative that would end an ongoing genocide in Africa that the UN calls the worst humanitarian crisis of the 21st century.But we're not doing it..."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 12:04 PM

I believe slavery was a widespread, ancient practice that was used in some parts of the US and was abolished.

Slavery in Canada

"...However, chattel slavery (where slaves were the private property of their owners and their children were born into slavery as well) started with the European settlements, appearing soon after the colonies were founded in the early 1600s. Most of their slaves were used as domestic house servants, although some performed agricultural labour. Some of the slaves held by Europeans in Canada were of African descent, while others were aboriginal (typically called "panis.")

Under French rule:
The first recorded slave purchase occurred in New France in the region known today as Quebec in 1628. The purchase was of a young boy from Madagascar, who was given the name Olivier Le Jeune.
The citizens of New France received slaves as gifts from their allies among native peoples. Many of these slaves were prisoners taken in raids against the villages of the Fox nation, a tribe that was an ancient rival of the Miami People and their Algonquian allies.
By the early 1700s, Africans began arriving in greater numbers to New France, mainly as slaves of the French aristocracy. When the British took over in 1759, there were more than 1,000 slaves living in Quebec.

Under British rule:
The British aristocracy also brought African slaves. Just after the American Revolution ended in 1783, British Loyalists brought over 2,000 African slaves to British Canada. Approximately 1,200 of the African slaves were taken to Nova Scotia, 300 to Quebec (Lower Canada) and 500 to Ontario (Upper Canada). A few others were taken to Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton Island, and Newfoundland.

Historian Marcel Trudel has recorded 4,092 slaves throughout Canadian history, of which 2,692 were aboriginal people, owned mostly by the French, and 1400 blacks owned mostly by the British, together owned by approximately 1400 masters.

The region of Montreal dominated with 2,077 slaves, compared to 1,059 for Quebec City overall and 114 for Trois-Rivières...."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:29 AM

It's beside the point, anyway - according to history the way I learned it - of course, that's suspect, because it was in Canadian schools, so no doubt it was all commie propaganda - anyway, according to the commie propaganda I learned in school, there was no Canada or United States in 1755 ...

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 11:20 AM

Just as Canada took so many of your former slaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 10:31 AM

Sort of a mean sprited, narrow focus on one thing to justify an all encompasing attack of the US as a whole.

Yet If something Canada has done is put in the spotlight, it is called unfair.

I haven't lost my freedom nor am I in danger of loosing my freedom unless socialists have their way. In which case I will become another sheep in the flock of a benign, controling, socialist government.

Are you saying the US does not support it's citizens when they are detained by a foreign government?

Did Canada support Arar when he was detained by the US government as instructed to by the Canadian government? I would like to know the details pertaining to that.

I forgot to mention the exile of those poor Canadian citizens, the Acadians. The US did take the majority of them in I beleive.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 02:03 AM

This thread wasn't really intended to be a contest about which country has committed the most atrocities. The reason I said, "Give em shit," was because of what the U.S. did to a Canadian who was just passing through and the effort of our PM to clear his name. There are plenty of us who cannot avoid going through the U.S. on our way to other destinations. Its nice to know that Canada will actually go to bat for one of its citizens if the U.S. detains them.

Are you a U.S. citizen, Dickey? Would your country go to bat for you if you were detained by another country? I doubt it. You'd be wasting away in some foreign prison and your president and most citizens wouldn't even attempt to obtain justice.

Let the Arar case serve as an example and take your freedom back before its too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 12 Feb 07 - 01:11 AM

The General and the Genocide

General Romeo Dallaire

by Terry Allen

Amnesty International NOW magazine, Winter 2002


Gen. Romeo Dallaire defied U.N. orders to withdraw from Rwanda. Without the authority, manpower, or equipment to stop the slaughter, he saved the lives he could but nearly lost his sanity.

In an indifferent world, Gen. Romeo Dallaire and a few thousand ill-equipped U.N. peacekeepers were all that stood between Rwandans and genocide. The Canadian commander did what he could-did more than anyone else-but he sees his mission as a terrible failure and counts himself among its casualties.
After a 100-day reign of terror, some 800,000 Rwandan civilians were dead, most killed by their machete-wielding neighbors. Dallaire had sounded the alarm. He'd begged. He'd bellowed. He'd even disobeyed orders. "l was ordered to withdraw...by [then-U.N. Sec. Gen. Boutros] Boutros Ghali about seven, eight days into it. .. and I said to him, 'I can't, I've got thousands' -by then we had over 20,000 people-'in areas under our control,"' Dallaire said in a recent interview with Amnesty Now. The general's hands, always moving, rose beside his face as if to block the memories. "The situation was going to shit....And, I said, 'No, I can't leave."'
The U.N. had sent Dallaire and 2,600 troops, mainly from Bangladesh and Ghana, to Rwanda to oversee a peace accord between the region's two main groups, Hutus and Tutsis. But on April 6,1994, eight months after the peacekeepers arrived, a plane carrying the Rwandan and Burundian presidents, both Hutus, was shot down over Kigali, the Rwandan capital. Hutu-controlled radio blamed the Tutsis and immediately began calling for their extermination, as well as for the murder of moderate Hutus considered friendly to the Tutsi "cockroaches." The broadcasts gave details on whom to kill and where to find them.

Rest of the story here.

BTW, he's Canuck.