BS: Give em shit, Canada

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:31 PM

You're right, Peace. The Arar case and the Almalki case are quite different because Arar is a citizen and the others are not. However, its true that a Commission should be able to establish the truth of the allegations. I'm just glad that someone is dealing with it and it is not being swept under the carpet.

So, Dickey - What has the U.S. and/or Britain done to stop the outsourcing of torture?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 04:36 PM

Almalki accuses Ottawa of aiding Syrian officials. Syria itself has accused Ottawa of supplying information to them. One question: why the fuck should anyone believe Almalki or Syria? So far the statements by Almalki and Syria are accusations. A Commission is looking at it, and because if it happened it happened under a former government, the Comission has no percentage in not establishing the truth. However, until the Commissions findings are released, it is just piss in the wind as far as I'm concerned, Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 04:25 PM

Peace - I'm not sure what you mean.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 02:36 PM

It is an accusation. Arar got ovet $10,000,000. People would say lots of things for that kinda cash.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 02:33 PM

The difference, Dickey, is that Arar was a Canadian citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 12:46 PM

Almalki accuses Ottawa of aiding Syrian officials

"...Abdullah Almalki has accused Canadian officials of having a larger hand in his imprisonment and alleged torture in Syria than they did in the Maher Arar affair.

"The complicity is far greater to the Canadian government than in Mr. Arar's case," the 35-year-old Syrian-Canadian engineer told CBC News on Wednesday from Ottawa...."


THE EMERGENCE OF A GLOBAL INFRASTRUCTURE FOR MASS REGISTRATION AND SURVEILLANCE

"...Finally, it is clear that the governments of Austria, Canada, Germany, Sweden, Turkey, and the U.K. have themselves sought to deport
terrorist suspects to countries where torture is a widespread or systemic problem, including Egypt, Russia, the Philippines, Russia, Sri Lanka, Syria and Uzbekistan. ..."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 11:46 PM

He would NOT have been sent to Syria. Hell, the USA fought with this country over Ng--who was wanted in California for murder, and because California was asking for him to be tried for murder one and they were requesting the death penalty, Canada would not send him to California. So stuff it about this Syria shit. In this case YOUR country fucked up. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 10:51 PM

Who made the decision to send Maher Arar, Muayyed Nureddin, Ahmad El-Maati to Syria.

If Arar had returned to Canada would he have been sent to Syria too?

It is Ok for Canada to send "innocent" people to Syria but the US is held to a different standard.

Again, I ask what would have happened differently if he had been sent to Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 01:22 AM

Canada contacted Arar in Tunisia, remember? They did nothing because he contacted a lawyer and they knew they didn't have enough evidence to hold him. They dropped it or maybe this is when the RCMP contacted the U.S. knowing he would be changing planes there.

The question remains - who made the decision to send him to Syria?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 12:35 AM

Again, I ask what would have happened differently if he had been sent to Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 10:06 AM

"Again, I ask what would have happened differently if had been sent to Canada? "

In short, YES!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 08:11 PM

It was NUPGE that compared Millhaven to Guantanamo.

So what does the U.S. do with non-citizens suspected of ties to terrorist by the Canadian authorities? What were their instructions?

Again, I ask what would have happened differently if had been sent to Canada?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:57 PM

Shit Dick you never even mentioned my largesse.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 04 Feb 07 - 05:20 PM

"the detainee told his mother in a letter that nobody held at Guantanamo "is being beaten or humiliated" and that living conditions there are better than at Russian health resorts."

Sorta contradicts what the peacemongers chant. ;D

"Canada has a half dozen. The US has 500"

How many of those half dozen were detained on the battlefield?

How many of the 500 were detained in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 02:22 PM

Able: "I don't have an in depth knowledge of the Arar thing or the peripheral issues because it didn't light a fire for me."
My sentiments exactly. (Unless of course, I have to land in a foreign country to change flights. I feel safe enough though. For now.)
Hey Metchosin. My kid cooks at the Mychosin Cafe'. Can't cook a damn thing at home though.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 02:10 PM

Re gnu's earlier link about stoning and stirring up shit, I caught part of an in depth interview on the CBC last night with one of the Quebec small town mayors. Initially I thought I was listening to Madly Off In All Directions. .... the mayor's comments regarding "dem mooselems and dem jewesses"...... I'm still wiping the tears of laughter from my eyes.........if only problems with the English language were entirely the reason.

OMG! ROTFLMAO!!! Borat is alive and well and living in Quebec! Vive le Borat !!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 11:44 AM

Dickie - The prisoners at Millhaven are not Canadian citizens (unlike Arar) and they are being held under security certificates. The security certificates are, in my opinion, unjust but the alternative is to deport them where they will surely be tortured.

Many Canadians are pressuring the govt. to end the security certificates and give these men the same rights as other prisoners. Millhaven is no paradise but to compare it to Guantanamo is an exageration.

For more information on the conditions of the prisoners at Millhaven, read their own words:

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/924

"We want the same rights as other federal inmates: access to a library, educational programs, and trailer visits with our families where we can stay together for three days every month."

So what does the U.S. do with non-citizens suspected of ties to terrorist?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 04:49 AM

I don't have an in depth knowledge of the Arar thing or the peripheral issues because it didn't light a fire for me. My only real concern is for the young men in the field who are going to get it in the neck because people who know nothing about war can't seem to understand that it is mostly young men dying in agony. I suppose my time in the military taught me that nobody gives a shit about this until it is their turn to start paying the price. Can't help myself, I always identify with the grunt. The way I see it, both countries appear to have buggered up for the best of reasons, Canada because we are not particularly adept at international intrigue and the US because of the twin towers. Canada has been far too lax with internal security and I just hope it doesn't come up and bite us on the ass. That said, the Commonwealth and the US haven't been at war since 1814. Dickey, if it comes to a knock down dragem out fight we'll all be on the same side as usual because of our common interests. My family is owed compensation for claims on Wilmington Delaware dating back to 1776. If you will entertain the thought that all of this isn't worth arguing about, I will forget about my personal fortune due because by now it is likely worth less than a buck. Got your e-mail peace, and read up on the Russell thing, didn't even know it existed. My grandmother had twin sisters who both ended up married to the same guy when one of them died. Barnardo's people were still trying to figure that one out over half a century later. They thought their records were wrong. As usual I have digressed, lack the computer skills to wander at will, I am really not a senile old fart, just sound like it sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:11 AM

That way people will accept that you are your same old self and not a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:10 AM

BTW, Dick. From the nature of your posts, I just figured out who you are. Why not just post under your membership name. Make it easier all around.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:09 AM

Yep. Canada has a half dozen. The US has 500. Seems like Canada's guilty alright. Good eye there, Dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:07 AM

"August 8:

Russia's Foreign Ministry has officially confirmed that the U.S. is holding eight Russian citizens captured in Afghanistan at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo, Cuba, Interfax-AVN reports. According to the ministry, Washington is completing "the legal and technical formalities" needed to extradite them to Russia. Meanwhile, Gazeta quotes the mother of one of the Russian detainees as saying she is "terribly scared" her son will be extradited and wind up in a Russian prison. According to the newspaper, the detainee told his mother in a letter that nobody held at Guantanamo "is being beaten or humiliated" and that living conditions there are better than at Russian health resorts."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:05 AM

Canada's 'Guantanamo North' prison to open by end of March
Small six-inmate facility within maximum security Millhaven Penitentiary already the subject of human rights protests

Kingston (20 March 2006) - Few people in Canada even know it exists but those who do are already calling it Guantanamo North - a small and intensely secure maximum-security prison for foreign terror suspects detained in Canada...

...Detainees held by Canada on security certificates: Mohamed Harkat (Algeria), Hassan Almrei (Syria), Mohammed Mahjoub (Egypt), Mahmoud Jaballah (Egypt) and Adil Charkaoui (Morocco)....

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:04 AM

That document was a DOD document, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:04 AM

"Guantanamo Bay is anything but transparent. Media access to Guantanamo Bay has been severely restricted. Journalists "could not talk to detainees, they had to be accompanied by a military escort and their photos were censored." In June, the military shut down media access entirely.

Point 8 initially quoted the mother of a Russian detainee saying how great Guatanamo Bay was: "Of course they wanted to stay there. … They had human rights and good living standards there. They had dentists and good meals — everything they wanted." As the Wasington Post's Al Kamen notes, "[T]his quote from a March 2004 edition of the London Times was a Russian mother comparing Guantanamo with Russian jails." It has been removed from the current document available online."

Save it, Dick!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 01:00 AM

http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/detainees/csrt/Set_39_2629-2646.pdf p16

Abu Bakr did not attend his Combatant Status Review Tribunal. But his Personal Representative reported to his Tribunal:

    "Sir he had one short statement. When I spoke to him about being returned to his home country, He said, 'I would rather be in the worst American jail than be a minister in my country. I want to stay here.'"

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:58 AM

BTW, is your first name Trickey?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:49 AM

Let's follow the logic. The water in this bath is 212 degrees F. It's only 210 degrees F in this one. Therefore, people should be thankful for being in the cooler bath. Right. Hang in there, Dick!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:45 AM

Russian mothers plead for sons to stay in Guantanamo


Nick Paton Walsh, Moscow
Saturday August 9, 2003
The Guardian

The mothers of the eight Russians held with other prisoners from Afghanistan at the US military base at Guantanamo Bay have begged Washington not to extradite their sons to answer terror charges in Russia, fearing that conditions in their jails and judicial system are even worse than those at Camp Delta.

"In Guantanamo they treat him humanely and the conditions are fine," Amina Khasanova, the mother of Andrei Bakhitov, told the newspaper Gazeta. "I am terribly scared for my son in a Russian prison or court system."

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:43 AM

Dickey (Keriste, change the name, PLEEZE):

Your government did that in your name. Hope you're proud of yourself for 1) agreeing with them and 2) apologizing for the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:41 AM

'OUTSOURCING TORTURE

The secret history of America's "extraordinary rendition" program.
by JANE MAYER

Issue of 2005-02-14

Posted 2005-02-07


On January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, assured the world that "torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture." Maher Arar, a Canadian engineer who was born in Syria, was surprised to learn of Bush's statement. Two and a half years ago, American officials, suspecting Arar of being a terrorist, apprehended him in New York and sent him back to Syria, where he endured months of brutal interrogation, including torture. When Arar described his experience in a phone interview recently, he invoked an Arabic expression. The pain was so unbearable, he said, that "you forget the milk that you have been fed from the breast of your mother."'

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:39 AM

"We saw a very different scene when we got to the prison. Using maps drawn by a former Tiger Cage prisoner, we diverted from the planned tour and hurried down an alleyway between two prison buildings. We found the tiny door that led to the cages between the prison walls. A guard inside heard the commotion outside and opened the door. We walked in.

The faces of the prisoners in the cages below are still etched indelibly in my mind: the man with three fingers cut off; the man (soon to die) from Quang Tri province whose skull was split open; and the Buddhist monk form Hue who spoke intensely about the repression of the Buddhists. I remember clearly the terrible stench from diarrhea and the open sores where shackles cut into the prisoners' ankles. "Donnez-moi de l'eau" (Give me water), they begged. They sent us scurrying between cells to check on other prisoners' health and continued to ask for water.

The photos that Harkin, today a U.S. Senator from Iowa, took were printed in Life Magazine (July 17, 1970). The international protest which resulted brought about the transfer of the 180 men and 300 women from the Cages. Some were sent to other prisons. Some were sent to mental institutions."

And the hits just keep on rollin'!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:35 AM

"Guantánamo Bay - a human rights scandal

It is now over five years since the first detainees were transferred to the detention camp at the US Naval Base in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba

Despite widespread international condemnation, hundreds of people of more than 30 nationalities are still there: without charge, and with little hope of obtaining a fair trial."

from Amnesty International

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:23 AM

OK. Canada is to blame. The US is innocent. Of everything. Forever. And always. Now go play in the fuckin' traffic!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 03 Feb 07 - 12:06 AM

"my country right or wrong" Precisely the stance of the person that started this thread.

So who screwed up the worst?

Who gave "wrong" info to the US?

Who caused the same thing to happen to several "innocents"?

It's a smoke screen.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 04:32 PM

"The best way to avoid trouble is to assess the situation and decide if you are willing to die fighting for your beliefs."

First thing in assessing the situation is to decide whether dying and killing in the course of fighting for your beliefs is going to help further those beliefs.

I don't think that Islamic jihadists, ready to die and kill for their beliefs, are doing anything to further Islam.   And I don't think that the people who have been sent to die and kill in Iraq by politicians sitting safely in London and Washington (in the safe parts of London and Washington that is) are doing anything to further what was said to be the reason they were sent, democracy and freedom and human rights and all that.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:16 PM

able - "Can't you people get it through your heads that the people you want to change are willing to die for their beliefs?"

The only people I'm trying to change are the politicians and I don't see any of them willing to die for their beliefs. They like to convince people like you that you should die for their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: able
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 02:44 PM

Left the thread for a while to see what would transpire. Returned to find that positions haven't changed radically, some are still changeing their opinions with each post. Others haven't changed their positions and everyone becomes deathly silent when challenged to make stand and fight. Anyone can be a heroic horses ass, which means there is no way they are going to personally get into the fighting,it's one thing to be a cheerleaderand another to being killed just for being in another persons country. I have deep respect for the men who are willing to give their lives for what they believe in, and no respect whatsoever for people who are willing to allow young men to die just so they can see their agenda carried out. You know you won't be called upon to fight if you are old, disabled or female. None of you seem to remember when the FLQ was planting bombs all over Montreal. Bombs don't discriminate, they kill everyone including women,the young men die first, if they become too able to thwart the enemy at every turn then the enemy will change his tactics. Can't you people get it through your heads that the people you want to change are willing to die for their beliefs? It is after all their country and they will not allow you to impose your beliefs without exhausting every means at their disposal. The last resort by most terrorists is indiscriminate bombings, and that puts all of us in the front line. Yes, Canada did screw up (I hope) on Arar, the US appears to have done the same. None of which changes the scenery onstage. We are still in the process of becoming statistics in a struggle of wills that will not be resolved until after far too much innocent blood has been shed. You can bandy words about until the cows come home but the people who win will be the ones who write the history books, and in a situation where the opponent believes if he kills you he goes to heaven and if you kill him he goes to heaven, with an incentive of 72 virgins thrown in to sweeten the pot. I come from a time when war was normal and peace was abnormal. It doesn't matter what your political beliefs are when the killing starts, what matters is if you are still around to see the end of the conflict. The best way to avoid trouble is to assess the situation and decide if you are willing to die fighting for your beliefs. If you aren't, then shut up, this world already has enough heroic horses asses willing to allow other people to die for some belief that was hatched on the internet. Over 90% of people are not particularly intelligent, yet they want to galvanize public opinion to their point of view. My patience wears thin with people like that, because they don't seem to have a firm grip on reality. The internet is not reality when you get run over by a car is reality. For God's sake, learn to know the difference, it might save your life. In the meantime try to avoid large gatherings, the enemy you shrug off as of no consequence might have already begun his campaign to indiscriminately kill us off with bombs in mail boxes garbage cans and what have you.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:56 PM

From CBC "The federal government announced on Dec. 12, 2006, that it was launching an independent inquiry into the cases of three Canadians who allege they were tortured while imprisoned in Syria."

btw, Dickie - There are still unanswered questions in the Arar case. Hopefully the inquiry into the detention and torture of the other three will shed more light on the involvement of Canada. So far, in the Arar case, all we know is that the RCMP shared info with the U.S.A. We do not know who gave that info to the RCMP and we do not know if the U.S.A. asked Canada to take Arar before sending him to Jordan and then to Syria. We also do not know why Jordan lied about Arar.

This is not over. My hope is that the American public will champion the cause of Arar so that extraordinary rendition and outsourcing torture will end. This practice has tarnished the image of the U.S.A. worldwide and must stop if the U.S.A. ever hopes to regain its reputation as a beacon of democracy.

If this has happened to Canadian citizens, how many others are unaccounted for?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:51 PM

You appear to be a "my country right or wrong" kinda guy. That sort of thinking is no longer fashionable.

I wish that were true.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:48 PM

100 !!

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM

One last thing: haven't you MFs been 'out-sourcing' torture for a long time now?

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:27 PM

BTW, Dick, you are starting to sound like an ill-informed individual, no offense. I have never said Canada doesn't share the shit on this. Canada does. However, the USA is also guilty as hell. So cut the crap and give it a rest. You appear to be a "my country right or wrong" kinda guy. That sort of thinking is no longer fashionable, if indeed it ever was.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:21 PM

"What absolves Canada to the point that they can criticise others for doing wht they did?"

Nothing. The same nothing that also doesn't absolve the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 12:15 PM

What absolves Canada to the point that they can criticise others for doing wht they did?

The Canadian criticisim of the US is a smoke screen for what happened eightfold in Canada. If you figure in the population ratio, it had happend eighty fold in Canada.

It was triggered by screw up on the part of Canada.

Mean spirited Hypocrisy is a good way to describe this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 10:58 AM

But admit it, it is difficult for the authorities to defend their actions, given the assumption that anyone who attempts to defend themselves must be guilty...

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 09:59 AM

That doesn't absolve the USA of its complicity or wrong-doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 02 Feb 07 - 03:18 AM

"..Abdullah Almalki is one of at least eight Muslim-Canadians who have been imprisoned in a foreign country after being questioned by Canadian security agents. Some of those men, including Maher Arar, Muayyed Nureddin, Ahmad El-Maati and Mr. Almalki, say they were tortured overseas.

They suspect Canadian intelligence and those who gather it played an important, and still unexplained, role in what happened to them.

A federal commission of inquiry is examining the case of Ottawa computer engineer Maher Arar, but the federal government has so far resisted calls to broaden the scope of that inquiry to include the other cases..."

http://www.amp.ghazali.net/html/who_is_al_malky.html

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM

petr - "...it would open up the whole can of worms of guantanamo and extraordinary renditions to secret camps etc.."

Thats one of the main reasons why the Arars continue to pursue this and why I'm proud that Canadian citizens are doing this.

Its not easy to go through the courts, especially if there is little chance for justice. We should all applaud their courage. I hope that their persistence will awaken the public to the necessity of protecting our rights and freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Give em shit, Canada
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 07 - 04:56 PM

"Nonetheless, pressure is mounting in the US to make amends to Arar and to allow him to enter the country. Now that the Democrats control both the country's Congress and Senate, concerns that they raise carry more weight. So far, Edward Markey, the Democratic Congressman from Massachusetts, has called on the United States to follow Canada's lead in acknowledging wrongdoing in sending Arar to Syria to be tortured; Senate judiciary committee head Patrick Leahy has also weighed in on the matter.

At a meeting of the judiciary committee January 18, Leahy grilled Attorney General Alberto Gonzales on the Arar affair, charging that "we ... knew damn well, if he went to Syria he would be tortured." Gonzales promised to share the Arar dossier with Leahy in the near future, to justify the decision to keep his name on the watch list. Unsatisfied, Leahy went on to attack the entire practice of extraordinary rendition at the same session.

In the meantime, Arar's US lawyer, Maria LaHood, continues to push his civil suit against the United States, appealing the most recent American court ruling that held since Arar was a non-citizen, he was not entitled to the redress he was seeking."

from

http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20070131-105402-9085r