BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)

Subject: Folk Awards - Results
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 04:14 PM

Tim van Eyken has just won Best Traditional Track.

YES!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 04:16 PM

. . . Barleycorn as heard on Kershaw last night. R3 for English trad, Hurrah!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 04:22 PM

Well done!!

Let's see if the Beeb will let us post it!!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 04:23 PM

Done.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 04:50 PM

BBC Folk Awards

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 04:50 PM

Right:

Best duo: Carthy and Swarb
Horizon: Kris Drever
Lifetime achievement: Danny Thompson
Live act: Bellowhead (again!)

that's all they've done so far!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 05:16 PM

Tim van Eyken has a fine and haunting voice and plays amazing accompaniments. A well deserved Award.

JL's skin saved I'd say!

I think Bellowhead are inivative from within the tradition but they only just exist as a live act.

Boat Band, Duncan McFarlane and Whapweasel are better live acts to mention only three of many.

Still lets trust that more people enyoy what ever this music is that we call Folk

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 05:17 PM

The link posted by Raindog above is to the press release, which has clearly come out before the ceremony has finished!

The only awards it doesn't seem to cover are Horizon, Group and Best Track Ever (audience vote).

The only one I know so far is Horizon (Kris Drever), but if I get news on the others, I'll post.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 06:08 PM

Right. Album of the year: seth lakeman

Favourite folk track of all time: Who Knows Where the Time Goes

Best Group: bellowhead

good tradition award: nic jones

lifetime achievement: pentangle

folk singer of the year: seth lakeman

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Surreysinger
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 06:32 PM

Hooray for Tim.... well deserved. Thank God for no white bunnies!!!
And hooray for the award for Nic Jones as well. Not sure I'd agree to Who Knows being my favourite track of all time - never really liked it (but then I'm just one person!)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 06:44 PM

Agreed...
Way to go Jonesey!
(Would have loved to have heard his speech though. Probably all about insects taking over the world!)
Good for Tim as well...Must get a copy (Oh the Shame)
The others seem the most likely suspects.
Is it true that Martin Carthy is buying Lindisfarne (the island, not the band) for his rapidly mounting collection of gongs.
Could have been worse, forget Bird Flu, at least Myximatosis got a look in!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 06:59 PM

Can I just echo Les, Tim has a thoroughly deserved award.....and there will be loads of people delighted that he has won.

Well done, Tim.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Surreysinger
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:13 PM

If it's any consolation Ralphie, the shame is shared - I still haven't got a copy, although I've had the chance to buy one direct from Tim on at least two occasions .... I will get round to it, honest, I promise.......slinks off into a corner to hide under a stone somewhere.....

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Bainbo
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:13 PM

"Jack Frost not best original song" shock

It was Daisy, by Karine Polwart
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/events/folkawards2007/winners.shtml

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Bainbo
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:14 PM

Sorry. Forgot the blicky

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:14 PM

I'd predicted Jack Frost, too. But love Daisy.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Surreysinger
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:17 PM

(Even more shaming is the fact that I was actually selling them for him on club night in September......oh calamity!! )

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Surreysinger
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 07:23 PM

Oh but it should have been Jack Frost - stunning song!!! Goes and sulks....

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 05 Feb 07 - 09:54 PM

Justfor Bainbo
A blue clicky

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 04:49 AM

I love Who Knows Where the Time Goes, but for largely nostalgic reasons, as I remember Sandy Denny, and she did the opening night at a club I ran many moons ago. While the Judy Collins version just blew me away!
It's not though a great song, and I suspect that sentiment had as much to do with it's winning, as anything else.
Well done all though, and especially my own favourite Karine Polwart.

Giok

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Mr Fox
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:08 AM

Bellowhead aren't a live act. They're (at least) three live acts.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:11 AM

And the sum is greater than the parts - a fabulous wall of sound!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:15 AM

Can anyone tell me what the definitions are, and who votes on, the two Lifetime Achievement awards and the Good Tradition Award?

They didn't appear on the invitation email that went to the panel, or on the Nominations list, and they don't seem to be part of the Audience vote

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:23 AM

I just assumed it was an award for people who had not had one for a while and had not done anything to deserve one.

I think the Good Tradition Award is for people with a good tradition.
Whatever that means.....

Vote? Tom your naivety amazes me.......:-)>

Best regards,

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:39 AM

Wall of Folk? Cap'n?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Tootler
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 09:02 AM

Full list here

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 09:14 AM

I asked earlier:

"Can anyone tell me what the definitions are, and who votes on, the two Lifetime Achievement awards and the Good Tradition Award?

They didn't appear on the invitation email that went to the panel, or on the Nominations list, and they don't seem to be part of the Audience vote"

and a chum just asked me if that meant I was unhappy with the results.

Far from it - richly deserving all round IMO - just curious about the process.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 09:15 AM

It's a clique [allegedly]
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:28 PM

I was pleased that the Radio 4 Today programme reported on the folk awards this morning (just before 8.30), and interviewed Seth Lakeman - and Bob Hoskins who was at the do last night, enthused about the folk awards generally and said how much he enjoyed them.   IIRC he used the word "intelligent" in praising the people involved!

Kitty

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,John Hills of Sevenoaks
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:31 PM

I was e-mailed by Hailsham Pavilion promoting a concert that includes J.Moray and referring to his award. He was described as being "the most significant musician since Bob Dylan". I replied saying the sender must be having a laugh or, if not, was in desperate need of counselling. I find the Valium does help. Well, I ask you!!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 03:55 PM

That was the 2004 awards. Doesn't 3 years pass quickly when you want to make a gratuitous comment?
Jim Causley was robbed, this year.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 05:30 PM

Cardboard Cutout

31 July 2004 was when I first heard Jim Causley sing - we were both in a lunchtime welcome concert in the Arts Centre at Sidmouth (and missing the launch of Derek Schofield's book).

Jim's time will come, I think (and we've got him booked at Herga in May, which I'm looking forward to). He is an impressive singer!

Kitty

PS Devil's Interval good too!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Scrump
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:18 PM

So when are we gonna get the list of numbers of votes for all the nominees, promised by John Leonard on the R4 Feedback programme?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:20 PM

Yes, Herga Kitty, it will indeed. Not for the Horizon Award, however. And I meant to say, earlier, I do like Kris Drever, (who did win), too.
I went to that book launch, in the Bedford...!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 06:30 PM

At the Fake Awards today, Lauren from DI gave Jim a special award for always being nominated for the folk awards but never winning!

He is a complete star. His time will come - he's a major talent that will be around for a very long time.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Surreysinger
Date: 06 Feb 07 - 07:39 PM

And we've got him booked for our club in Guildford this Friday, 9th February at 8pm. There are only a few tickets left - bookable via Electric Voices - see the webpage at http://www.themusicinstitute.org.uk
which award was that Ruth?? They're all beginning to merge into one in my mind now?? Was it the first one given out?? I thought Lauren got one - the Seems Like a Lifetime Award - for having to work with Jim?? Oh my head hurts!!

Hope to see some of you at the club on Friday night??

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,unclebob
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 03:08 PM

"I was e-mailed by Hailsham Pavilion promoting a concert that includes J.Moray and referring to his award. He was described as being "the most significant musician since Bob Dylan". I replied saying the sender must be having a laugh or, if not, was in desperate need of counselling. I find the Valium does help. Well, I ask you!!"

I don't think those were the words of Hailsham Pavilion, but of Australias biggest newspaper! The original article from which the quote was taken is here - http://www.smh.com.au/news/cd-reviews/jim-moray/2006/09/13/1157826995677.html

He was great in Twickenham on Sunday. Maybe you just don't know what you're missing...

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: dj bass
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 03:21 PM

Jim Causley is playing Folk on the Moor near Plymouth on Sunday 11th Feb, which is where I'll be seeing him.

dj

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 04:21 PM

Tim van Eyken has just won Best Traditional Track.

NO!!!!!

The little git will be even smugger now (and even blander?).

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Surreysinger
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:04 PM

I have to say that I find that comment really offensive. In my experience Tim has always been courteous, friendly and open - smug, no! And I certainly wouldn't describe him as bland (unless of course, you're looking for a light show and fireworks with every performance???)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:13 PM

He is good but I still back anything by the Boat Band or Duncan McFarlane

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:31 PM

The Boat Band and Duncan McFarlane are both class acts.
So is Tim van Eyken. And the least smug chap I've ever encountered.
I can't believe I'm wasting time typing this.
Stupid comments like these come usually from people who don't even know the musicians in the first place.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:53 PM

Tim - one of the nicest people on the folk scene. Duncan McFarlane, one of the nicest people on the folk scene.

Clearly you have no idea of that of which you speak.

Boat Band? Never seen them but Greg Stephens tells me they are good......

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 05:55 PM

Look out shotgun blasts.

I am not sure who that was aimed at Countess. I have seen all 3 in the last year or so and really enjoyed them all for different reasons.

For sheer tunes and excitment I liked th BB and the DMcFs. van Eyken does something else and he does it extremely well and he certainly did not seem smug.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:02 PM

Whatever happened to the Campaign To Get People To Read The Thread Before Posting (or whatever it was called)?

Someone accused Tim of being 'smug' and 'bland', which is probably actionable. Someone else says G Stephens & D McF bands are 'better'. Is this some village produce show where the judges ponder ridiculously and poointlessly between apples, rhubarb and sprouts?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:08 PM

Rhubarb any time.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: greg stephens
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:25 PM

Scrump: I think you are being a bit unfair badgering SmoothOps to publish the nominees votes. They were only counted on November 8, they haven't even had two months to prepare the release you know, and the might cover as much as two sheets of paper. These things take time.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 06:49 PM

Good point greg. I agree, you can't just come up with figures overnight. It takes a good deal of thought, to make them convincing enough to satisfy the most critical observers.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Feb 07 - 08:14 PM

Tim: lovely, lovely, lovely. End of.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:51 AM

yes tim is lovely and a great great musician- so well done. I live n a different space/time continuem to everyone else so carthy/swarbrick and polwart aside I've never heard of the rest of them -worrying isn't it?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 06:21 AM

Which particular space-time continuum are you in then Linda?? I have to admit that there are one or two of the nominees that I either haven't heard of or haven't heard - but then, you can't be everywhere and hear/do everything can you? I can at least say that I used to be a member and a regular attender at the Ram Club in Claygate (until I smashed my little Metro up and failed to replace it) - so for once I actually know the Club of the Year!! (:-) (Well deserved win, by the way - although of course there's now another club in Surrey on Friday nights that I go to in preference - well _somebody's_ got to sell the raffle tickets!!)

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 07:35 AM

If you are worried about not knowing some of the nominees for the Folk Awards, listen to the Mike Harding show. He plays them all just about every week.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:18 AM

"smug", "bland" = "actionable". Ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaa................

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:31 AM

"If you are worried about not knowing some of the nominees for the Folk Awards, listen to the Mike Harding show.
I ain't worried - and I only listen to that show once in a blue moon. (May listen to this week's on replay - and will DEFINITELY listen at the end of the month to the one that features Nic Jones) Thanks anyway...

Guest of 8.18.... what are you on???

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:31 AM

I'm sure that Tim van Eyken is really, really nice - a really super and lovely human being - a saint whose breath smells of vanilla and whose ... need I go on? Of course I haven't met him - so the above may be slightly exaggerated ...

Thing is though, like many recent 'Folk Prodigies', I find his music smug and bland - sorry, but there you are!

Recently a friend played me one of his recent CDs and I thought, "what the f..k has this got to do with folk music?" Over-produced, over-orchestrated and not very interesting. The contents list contained some titles of trad. songs - but I found it hard to recognise them.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Scrump
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:38 AM

I ain't worried

Sorry, Surreysinger, I should have made it clear I was addressing my comment to Linda Kelly who had said "...I've never heard of the rest of them -worrying isn't it?"

Apologies for any confusion caused.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:46 AM

recent 'Folk Prodigies'

Recent??

Tim van Eyken won the first Young Folk Award competition in 1998 and it was around then that his first (and so far only) solo CD, New Boots was released. As most (I imagined) people know, he has since collaborated with Rob Harbron both as a duo and in Dr Faustus and has spent seven (I think, almost) years in Waterson:Carthy while Saul Rose was on paternity leave. Now he has his own (loose) band Van Eyken with long-time casual collaborators on the CD Stiffs Lovers Holymen Thieves (which covers most trad music really).

What on earth has he does that's over-orchestrated or even over-produced? Are you even thinking of the right musician?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 08:52 AM

"the CD Stiffs Lovers Holymen Thieves"

Yes, I think that was it. As I say "over-produced and over-orchestrated" (must have missed the unaccompanied tracks).

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: old girl 1
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 09:01 AM

Well done Tim. Nicki sends his regards   Rose & Dave S/Wales

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 09:02 AM

SLHT is a band CD, not one of 'unaccompanied tracks'. You have clearly missed Barleycorn which got Best Trad Track. Missed the sparseness of the stripped down arrangement in contrast to the never-ending torrent of overdone, bombastic offerings from others.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,Trying to help
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 09:20 AM

Shimrod, I just checked something that I thought was true, remembering other threads. I checked and it is. Almost every single contribution to any thread that you have ever posted is attacking someone or something. Are you aware how negative your responses are? Usually this means the person is very unhappy and is throwing their negativity onto the world (rubbishing other people) in order to avoid dealing with their own issues. Perhaps you need to think about this. I genuinely hope you will, and that your response will not be simply to attack me. I really am trying to help.

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 09:25 AM

Shimrod, I have to say it sounds like you've got the wrong CD, and in fact musician, to me. I can't imagine a less accurate description of SLHT - overproduced?! And if you're basing your assertion that his music is "bland and smug" on one inattentive listen at a mate's house, maybe you ought to listen to it properly before casting nasturtiums.

Can someone explain to me how music can be smug, BTW?

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:05 PM

Hey there Shim....
Tim's a real gent - met him once - at a lock in after playing Oxford Folk club! He showed this 'amateur' a lot of consideration and kindness as I (the only guitarist present) struggled to keep 'up' with he, Boden and a few others into the night. Knock his (or my) music if you don't like it - but don't knock the chap himself please!
You say......The little git will be even smugger now (and even blander?).....
no need! Surely!

Oh..... IMHO his Barleycorn version sure knocks spots off mine!

Ta for the good raps Les - appreciate it - but I'm never gonna be 'award' material - only sparsely 'known' across the UK - not in same league... etc etc
.....up to now! Who knows - one day afore I croak it - eh? (sighs and dreams on...)
Hugs - Duncan

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:40 PM

I have actually been living on Planet Kelly for some time - run a folk club , do festivals but admit to being on the 'fringe' of traditional folk music. I know Tim from being part of EthnoEngland and he is hardworking and motivational, a fantastic musician. but we don't all have the same tastes do we?-for instance I can't stand the music of Tom Paxton -no hope for me is there? however, no point in holding a debate over who is better than whom-if you don't like cheese then you don't like cheese! Doesn't mean cheese is bad just that in my view it tastes like vomit!

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:51 PM

Duncan - you are a really good guitar player, I am sure you could have kept up with them!! But I admit the young prodigies get all the wawrds, look at the last couple of years...Martin Carthy, Dave Swarbrick, Danny Thompson, John Tams, Paul Brady, Ashley Hutchings etc etc.

Dave

Subject: RE: Folk Awards - Results
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 01:52 PM

Ahem . . . oops sorry Dunc, I didn't mean your Barleycorn when I said what I did, just that Tim's is a million times better than many. Gives me a chance though to say again what a top bloke he is. Kind, helpful, friendly and yes!! a shiny halo. And a jolly fine musician. Has to be, to have done all he's done so far.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 03:03 PM

Shimrod, Old Bean.
Keep taking the medication. It will start working eventually.
You just have to give it time,,
Now, Now...Go and lie down and have a little nap,
Hope you feel better tommorrow.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: GUEST,surreysinger (forgot to log in)
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 04:26 PM

Well if Diane's repeating what she thinks of Tim, then so will I ... everything she says about him is spot on as far as I'm concerned, and echoes my own feelings on the matter.

Oh, and Scrump, it's OK... when I reread what you'd put and scrolled back I realised I had probably misconstrued. Mind you, just like Linda (like the idea of Planet Kelly, by the way!) I hadn't heard of a couple of the nominees - or if I had heard of a couple, I hadn't heard anything by them.... but then they're not in the particular area of this "wide church" of ours that I'm particularly interested in, so I'm not altogether surprised. I look forward to hearing something by them at a later point.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:50 PM

Thank you 'trying to help',

Yes, I am unhappy - I'm unhappy because the music I love appears to be going down the drain. Where there used to be beautiful or stirring songs with great tunes, and great performances, there are now pretentious 'bands' and pseudo rock performers. Thanks for attempting to psychoanalyse me (although I don't remember asking you to?). Think of me as a dissident, who is not influenced by fashion, and remember that in certain totalitarian societies dissidents have often been dealt with by bringing their mental health into question.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 08 Feb 07 - 05:52 PM

No worries Diane - as my post said - Tim's version is THE tops by me any day!
Cheers - D

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Scrump
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:02 AM

but we don't all have the same tastes do we?-for instance I can't stand the music of Tom Paxton -no hope for me is there? however, no point in holding a debate over who is better than whom-if you don't like cheese then you don't like cheese! Doesn't mean cheese is bad just that in my view it tastes like vomit!

I agree Linda - we all have our own tastes and that's nothing to worry about or be ashamed of. If you don't like Tom Paxton, that's your choice. There are artists I don't particularly like, and there are some of the Folk Awards nominees I've heard little of and have never seen live. As Surreysinger said further up, "you can't be everywhere and hear/do everything can you?"

In spite of me spending a lot of time in folk clubs and at festivals, there are still some of the 'major' artists I haven't been able to see. But then I've seen a lot of other ones I admire, who weren't among the Folk Awards nominees.

I don't go around slagging off artists that I don't like though, because I recognise that it upsets others who do like them. OK, if I genuinely think someone is rubbish then I might say so, but usually it's just that I don't particularly enjoy their choice of material, or their style of singing, or whatever - I can often see why other people like them, it's just that they don't appeal to my personal taste. It doesn't bother me though, because most people are like that (aren't they?).

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:13 AM

Think of me as a dissident, who is not influenced by fashion, and remember that in certain totalitarian societies dissidents have often been dealt with by bringing their mental health into question.

The difference between totalitarian society and Mudcat is that both may do that but on Mudcat we don't put you in the Gulag..........yet.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:51 AM

"Where there used to be beautiful or stirring songs with great tunes, and great performances, there are now pretentious 'bands' and pseudo rock performers."

And neither of these applies to Tim van Eyken, whose music you're clearly unfamiliar with. So instead of being a bitter little ball of bitterness, why not listen to people like Tim, or Kris Drever, or Jim Causley? No pseudo rock, no pretentiousness, just lovely interpretations of traditional songs.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:01 AM

Seems to be a lot of fuss generating because some people like TvE and one person doesn't. Is this a problem?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 08:49 AM

People liking different things isn't a problem - what is a problem was the distinct unpleasantness of Shimrod's first posting. Completely uncalled for IMHO.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:39 AM

"I don't go around slagging off artists that I don't like though, because I recognise that it upsets others who do like them."

I would have thought that Mudcatters were made of sterner stuff than that? If someone disagrees with me I don't get 'upset' - I fight back - usually using sweet reason and logic but occasionally, and always regretably (!), using 'street-fighting' tactics (but then none of us is perfect). My original post was not designed to 'upset' but to 'shock'.

You see, I was 'shocked' and 'upset' on hearing the CD referred to above. This was because I had heard good things about Mr van Eyken but it seemed to me that he had moved so far away from folk music that what he was producing was no longer recognisable as such. And none of this would matter very much if he hadn't won a prestigious national folk award.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:41 AM

Greg, it was simply clear from his posting that a lack of familiarity with the music wasn't going to stop him having an opinion on it, which seems unfair. And the phrase "The little git will be even smugger now" is completely indefensible when talking about one of the nicest people in this (or any) industry.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 09:58 AM

Hear hear Ruth!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 10:26 AM

Can I just echo what Ruth said too - a really nice person.

Dave Eyre
Bookseller to Tim Van Eyken

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 10:34 AM

OK, me too, for the third time . . .
TvE: definitely not a git, emphatically not smug.
Anyone who's ever met him would be incapable of making such an incomprehensible mistake.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: AlexB
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:05 AM

Having had a listen to clips of the tracks I hadn't heard from SLHT (which I should get), it certainly sounded folk to me.

Shimrod, could you perhaps give us a few specific tracks that you thought sounded "not folk"?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:08 AM

Agreed, Shimrod was a bit acerbic. I think younng Tim came in for a bit of generalised flailing flak aimed in the general direction of changes in the folk scene over the last generation or so: which the poor lad can hardly be personally blamed for.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:21 AM

I think poor Shimrod is regretting the huge linguistic change that has happened in the last thirty years.(Though he can speak fro himself, and I'm sure will do so). He just seemed to be saying what is patently obvious: that Tim's music has been reclassified as "traditional folk" now, but would not have been so in the 60's,say: it would have counted as "revival". Shimrod, I fear, is wasting his anger. That is probably not a bit of toothpaste that can be crammed back in the tube, much as he would like to.
    I don't share Shimrod's biliousness, but I also think it's a pity that absolutely nothing whatever appeared in this section of the nominations that might be described as "traditional" in the old sense, It all seems strikingly reminiscent of the BBC a generation or two back, when they played lots of Benjamin Britten, Percy Grainger, George Butterworth etc reinterpreations of folk material, but virtually none of the original kind of stuff. Which was then, of course, thriving, alive and kicking.
    I love the Eykens. Brittens. McColls and Carthys giving the old style a bit of a pummelling, but I dont forget where the stuff came from: i think Radio 2 has let go of that, though. A pity.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 11:57 AM

Indeed R2 has let go of that in favour of 'follow through' which means that everything even mildly 'f*lk-tinged' has to be sugar-coated so as not to scare who they imagine are their dumbed down mainstream audience. R3 has not entirely. There are productions such as last Sunday's Music Matters (still on the replayer) and one-off programmes like England In Ribbons, the daylong St Georges's Day collage and Christmas Champions and for this, the network deserves support.

The R2 Award for Best Traditional Track criteria is, after all:

The best performance of any traditional song or tune on CD released during the past 12 months. This is a category designed to recognise the work of people recording traditional material. It is to be a new recording of a traditional song, from any tradition.

It does not say it has to be performed by 'traditional musicians'. Tim van Eyken is a musician performing mainly traditional material. Barleycorn is a new recording of a traditional song which he did not write/rewrite himself from unclear sources real or imagined like another of the nominations in this category, and is therefore a worthy winner. Greg, you can call Tim a revivalist performer (which indeed he is) but an ever-decreasing number of punters would understand nowadays what this meant. He is, however, fully steeped 'in the tradition', having played for Morris for many years, starting I believe with his mother's side who gave him his first melodeon. No, this didn't make him a 'smug git'.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:10 PM

Nothing to add to that, really. Apart from asking, Greg, if the awards was for traditional singers as opposed to revivalists singing in the tradition, who the hell would be nominated? True traditional singing died with Fred Jordan, surely.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:20 PM

I suppose you could enter the odd traveller still left here and there, but how would you Catch Them If You Can and persuade them into The Brewery?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:26 PM

My Traveller the other night sang Kenny Rogers songs.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 12:30 PM

That one didn't have a Legg to stand on though, did he?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Surreysinger
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 01:20 PM

"That one didn't have a Legg to stand on though, did he? "
Chuckle, chuckle. Mind you, the Leggs haven't been travelling in many years ... when does a traveller cease to be a traveller, please ? On second thoughts maybe not... leave that question to lie.
Re traditional singers left - bit sweeping to say they died out with Fred Jordan, Ruth - what about the likes of Bob Lewis, who sings songs that he learned from his family (many of which were collected in Sussex by the likes of Lucy Broadwood et al in the 19th century); or the Millens from Kent etc etc?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 02:28 PM

True traditional singing died with Fred Jordan, surely

Not really Ruth, as an example, we still have Shepherd meets around here where the singers sing traditional songs.

And just 'cos your traveller sang Kenny Rogers one night does not mean he doesn't sing other stuff other nights. A £ to a pinch of snuff he knows "Buttercup Joe". And there are a few singers around here (Sheffield) that learnt their songs orally from their family. Roger Hinchcliffe is still a young man.

Cecil Sharp rushed around at the turn of the century 'cos folk song was dying out. At the amalgamation of the two societies in 1932 it was more or less agreed that there were few folk singers left. Peter Kennedy rushed around with his tape recorder 55 years ago because when he went back to Stanley Slade he found he was dead.

And the carols are traditional - does that make people like me who have learnt them orally as I have a traditional singer?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 03:03 PM

Is Dave Eyre a traditional singer? Well sort of, yes, probably. In the same way as the Young Coppers are. They sing stuff from the family songbook when they feel like it but it's not a big deal. I learned songs, tunes and dances from trad musicians when at school in Newcastle though I didn't know that was what they were, but back home at my grandfather's in North Yorkshire it was more blurred. He'd played for his local morris side before World War I but when he returned there were no longer enough dancers to make a side. Or a cricket team, for that matter. He remembered the tunes and played them sometimes, though much to the ridicule of the rest of the family. It just wasn't 'fashionable' in the 1950s. This side has recently been revived and they have some of his tunes. Is this traditional? It's a grey area.

Bob Davenport has this story of a Peter Kennedy broadcast featuring a folklore academic who knew the exact date and time when hammer dulcimer playing had died out in these islands. Strange, since Bob had seen one down at Hoxton market that very morning. There are still pockets throughout the land where, when you least expect it, evidence that a tradition still survives will emerge.

A traveller in a Lincolnshire pub may have some as yet undiscovered gems, or he may not. If he makes the Kenny Rogers songs his own, perhaps he'll pass them on orally, or maybe not. Simon Ritchie of the Posh Band is a musician who really does embrace the music of the day and make it into the music of the people. He can do Leonard Cohen, Jimmy Cliff, Bob Dylan, Smokey Robinson, Sex Pistols and the Searchers alongside trad material in a pub with all sorts of racket going on and gain people's attention as he stepdances on the table. A true star who never self-promotes.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 03:05 PM

I'll get me coat.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:06 PM

Well of course I'd just like to be a singer - shame that the only voice I have has difficulty staying in tune. I can hide in the carols.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:30 PM

Ruth Archer: a couple of points. firstly, I dont think that the traditional bits of the awards should be confined to "traditional" singers: who is going to define that? We all know what controversy that sort of thing arouses. No, I think people should vote for whoever they like, the mass vote can define the definitions. I was just disappointed we have the kind of panel that doesn't really vote for anything trad sounding.
    Secondly, you suggest the tradition is dead(with Fred Jordan). Well, even accepting what you say, the panel is perfectly capabale of voting a non-Brit qinner(Chris Thilefor example). There are plenty of traditional singers left in the world(including any amount of non-indigenous culture singers here in Englan, as I work recording them, so I know).
    And anyway, as others have pointed out, the indigenous traditions are by no means dead. I shall probably go to a Shepherds Meet/hunting song competition do in the lakes quite soon. These events chugged along happily before the Great Folk revival, and are still chugging along totally separate from it. Just because you don't see the performers at Cambridge and Celtic Connections, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
I play in a barndance band, as I have since I was a youth. I played with, and learnt from, the old guys, and now I pass it on. I play weddings, birthdays, christenings, funerals, just the same as those before me. Playing the same tunes. No the tradition is not dead. It may look so from Radio 2 perspective, but get out in the north, or the west(of England, that is) and you will find reports of the death of the tradition are greatly exaggerated. Granted, it interacts little with the folk scene(club or festival): but that is the collective choice of the folk scene. With which, obviously, I seriously disagree.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: AlexB
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 04:39 PM

I think people should vote for whoever they like, the mass vote can define the definitions.

Bunnies and all?

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:09 PM

It's a wee bit insulting to assume my perspective is based on Cambridge, Celtic Connections and Radio 2, Greg.

Chris Thile is a fantastic musician, but I still find it a weird choice. Why the occasional American nominee? There doesn't seem to be any logic.

I probably wasn't clear enough. I acknowledge that there are still traditions like those you describe, and like Sheffield Carols. I don't know how many "outsiders" will visit and take part in the Shepherd's meet, but certainly Sheffield Carols atracts many visitors from outside the community, which is lovely but also fudamentally alters the nature of the tradition. These traditions also seem to be quite collective in nature, which is also lovely, but we were talking about the folk awards, and singers who might be nominated for a traditional singer's award. Who are the individual living source singers who would be eligible for such an award today?

Happy to be enlightened,

Ruthie

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:48 PM

"Shimrod, could you perhaps give us a few specific tracks that you thought sounded "not folk"?"

Sorry, no, because that would mean that I would have to listen to the wretched thing again (oh, noooo!!!!).

On the other hand I'm glad to see that my 'biliousness' seems to have kick-started a proper discussion - as opposed to a Tim van Eyken 'love-in' (and, yes, I'm sure he is a really super person).

Right, I'm off to boil a couple of babies for my supper (Mmmm!! Plump and juicy!).

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 05:51 PM

Mad Alex: nominations(under the current sisyems) are not defined by mass voy=tes. On the albino bunny question(which I have stuck my neck out and complained about) there was no question of a mass vote.I doubt if even one of the voters thought the White Hare was a trad song. What I imagine happened is that a very small number of voters, say five or so, thought it might be a good idea if the White Hare won the trad category, and decided to vote that way. Add that to a handful of fans who voted for their favourite, another five, and there's the ten you need. The votes are spread so thin (350 votes spread over many thousand possible tracks) that it doesn't take many votes to get in the top four.
Ruth Archer: I am very sorry if I gave the impression I thought your horizons were bounded by Cambridge and Celtic Connections. When I said "just because you don't see them at Cambridge " I meant "you" as in "one". None of us see trad performers much on Radio 2, but that doesn't prove they don't exist, that was my point I am saying that the Radio 2 set-up(MH programme and Awards) is moving the scene inexorably away from the British folk teadition, and towards a set of performance styles which are typefied by those who play at those festivals. And no, I dont say Mike Harding and Cambridge don't cover traditional folk music, They do, a lot of it. What I am saying is that every year a bit more trad mat erial is discarded, and replaced with a bit more other stuff. So a scene that was 90% trad-orientated, in say 1960, is being publicly presented now in the media as being 90% contemporary-orientated.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:03 PM

That's interesting, Greg - I was watching the Watersons' film "Travelling for a Living" last weekend, and one of the moments that hit home with me was when someone (perhaps the head of Topic Records?) was explaining to camera why the Watersons were important. He was essentially bemoaning the fact that there were all these singer-songwriter types who were very commercially successful, but saying that their success was undermining the whole folk genre because they had no real notion of or respect for tradition. But that the Watersons were important because they were studying the tradition and immersing themselves in the source recordings as inspiration for their music. And I laughed quite heartily to think that these same arguments that we constantly revisit were already raging 40 years ago...

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:14 PM

And I suspect that Greg exaggerates the percentages but I take his point. I use Listen Again and listen to Travelling Folk on Radio Scotland . It is the programme that the MH Show ought to be.

There isn't an award for a traditional singer but I'd go get your coat again if you think someone couldn't be awarded if from the UK.

Include the whole of Scotland there are plenty and with the whole of Northern Ireland a load more. (The Young Musician of the Year Two Years ago was Jarlath Henderson - piper) Include Eire and there are traditional singers without number.

Shepherds meets are by invitation so it is rare that you would get an outsider. Roger Hinchcliffe learnt his songs from his father Frank Hinchcliffe. (Who appeared with Phil Tanner etc on the Century of Song EFDSS record). Does some Fred Jordan stuff too.

But the best place to look for traditional singers would be the Veteran Catalogue or Kyloe Records.

Loads of the singers there are still alive.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:25 PM

Okay - I was only askin'! I've got me coat again.

How does Jarlath figure in this question, Uncle Dave?

Course, Fred Jordan himself sang loads of music hall and incorporated new songs into his repertoire all the time, which apparently made him "not traditional" in the eyes of some. Go figure.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 06:37 PM

Jarlath came into it because I wanted to point out that the folk awards cover the UK.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 09 Feb 07 - 07:05 PM

I have had a couple of pints tonight. Please take anything I say with a pinch of salt. Just like you should with these stupid folk awards.
What are they for:- Promotion of commercialism
Do we need them :- er' No.
Who won last year :- Who gives a shit
Who will win next year :- Whoever smooth operations think they can make the most out of.
Who gets to vote :- "I can't possibly comment on that. It would mean allowing transparancy to ruin the event"
Who will never win :- people like Phil Hare and Stan Accrington and Pete Ryder and a hundred other top performers who daily, weekly and yearly (is there such a word as yearly?) perform all over the national club scene but who have too much integrity to swoon the "voters".
Which folk venues (I wanted to say clubs but clubs are a dying breed) gain from the awards :- The ones who book the most expensive artists coz they can afford them and these artists get to vote.

I am promoting an alternative this year. It's called the Best Plumber Awards. I think it's far more valid and each award has proof.
Best Bathroom :- (supported by B&Q)
Best copper pipework :- (supported by Rio Tinto metals)
Most used drainwork :- (supported by E-zy drains ltd)
Best traditional boiler (Supported by modern boilers are us). Oooo Seth Lakeman.

Listen to yourselves and worry a little.

Spot the Dog (who has run folk clubs, festivals and performed music, song and dance on the traditonal and contemporary scene for over 35 years and would tell you where and how far to stuff an award if it was offered.) Cor........ I enjoyed that little rant!!!

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: AlexB
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 03:28 AM

Sorry, no, because that would mean that I would have to listen to the wretched thing again (oh, noooo!!!!).


So you are saying that a cd you heard at a friend's, which you only think was Stiffs Lovers Holymen Thieves by Tim van Eyken, was over produced and far removed from folk, yet you won't go back to double check.

I'm wondering if it wasn't Seth Lakeman's Freedom Fields album you heard. Why? Because Tim's album is almost entirely traditional, whereas you said the cd you heard had only a few trad titles. Seth also has a far more pop tinged sound.

Nothing against Seth, but I think this is more than likely the case.

Subject: RE: BBC Folk Awards - Results (2007)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Feb 07 - 04:03 AM

For the sake of accuracy, I have to point out that Jarlath Henderson is a past winner of the Young Folk Award, a competition for musicians under 20. This is entirely unconnected with the R2 Folk Awards.