BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland

Subject: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:10 PM

I just saw on the "Yahoo" news page, that the 'Scottish Government'has given the go-ahead for the consruction of a new crossing of the Firth of Forth to supplement the existing Forth Bridge.The cost is estimated at one Billion pounds. For the benefit of our cousins in USA & Canada, a billion in the UK is a million times a million,not your puny little thousand times a million. That's a LOT of money. And where will most of this money come from?? YES !! From ENGLISH tax-payers, of course !! Discuss !!!

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:26 PM

We must cross the Firth of Forth for the people of Fife. But how can that be the price? (Yes, I saw the articles saying "At least 1bn pounds") But you could take over a third of Iraq for that price. And Google puts the most expensive bridge in the world (Akashi Kaikyo Bridge ) at a measly $4.3 billion US dollars and US billions. The chunnel comes in at a mere 21 billion US dollars and US billions. Unless my googling is sub-par.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:31 PM

A billion the way you have explained it makes no sense at all. All money that the German government spends within a year (wages and all that) is still far below a billion. What must be meant is a billion as 1000 millions.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: danensis
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:50 PM

A thousand million is a milliard, not a billion. IF the chancellor can't even get that right, heaven help us when he becomes PM

John

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:50 PM

Bubblyrat, I thought that a billion was a thousand million in the UK and a million million in other languages. I'm confused now because I used to think it was a million million and then thought it was a thousand million. Perhaps we need a new thread entitled "What is a billion?".

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 04:58 PM

The taxes paid on Scottish North Sea Oil would pay for it a thousand times over!
G

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:06 PM

Back to what we are supposed to discuss. If it is going to cost £1,000,000,000,000 and not £1,000,000,000 then that is a hell of a lot of money.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:07 PM

1000 million equals 1 billion here (Canada). Still a hell of a lot!

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:07 PM

Well it is or will be a scottish bridge in scotland. Scottish money required. Myself I would rather see the money going to rebuild and re-fortify Adrians wall with NO ENTRY SIGNS on the scottish side of the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:26 PM

Why not just dam the damned Firth of Forth, drain it, and make a road for that kind of money?

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: mick p r.m s.c
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 05:57 PM

Rapaire, shame on you what would happen to all the dolphins. Whoops wish I never asked that question I think I know the answer I am about to receive.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:45 PM

I'm guessing the main cost will actually be in trying to sort out the roads, as they're a right mess. Somebody's bright idea to have the city by-pass, main Edinburgh-Glasgow road, and the Forth Bridge crossing all going through a very small space, and a road lay-out designed to cause traffic jams.

That, and any infrastructure project in this country costs a silly amount of money....

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: BanjoRay
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 06:58 PM

Traditionally in the UK, a billion is a million million. However the American system of calling a thousand million a billion seems to be catching on here and getting much more frequently used, so that most, if not all of the news media now use it that way. So the new bridge will cost a thoosand million poonds, as Gordon Brown would put it.
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:41 PM

As Banjo Ray says-----A Billion was always traditionally a million X million. But the Yanks,as usual,have to go and be different,so I suppose we must slavishly accept their version of a thousand x million. But yes,it is still a hell of a lot of money for a bridge, and once the Scottish Parliament have voted for it,there is nothing that English politicians can do about it, which is very unfair,and blatantly un-democratic, and I cannot understand,for the life of me, HOW Scotland gets away with it !!Perhaps it"s time now for an ENGLISH parliament??? What say you all ??

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Feb 07 - 07:45 PM

By the way, WOLFGANG and others----- When I went to school, a Billion was absolutely ,no question, a million times a million !!

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:42 AM

Bubblyrat, a billion was a million times a million when I was at school and it only seems to be relatively recently that it has become a thousand million in the UK - that's why I was totally confused because if you pick up old textbooks it's one thing and in the papers etc. it's another. Let's just hope that Brown knows what it is!

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Big Phil
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:04 AM

Don't care if it is a million million or a thousand million or 12 pence and two balloons, Iraq war has cost us 5 billion at the last count, that would have built us 5 bridges over the bloody Forth. time to get things in perspective I recon.............

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: skipy
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:31 AM

Surely if they build another one it will be the "fifth" bridge.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Hrothgar
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:38 AM

A billion here, and billion there ... and soon it starts adding up to serious money!

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:41 AM

Perhaps we could waste it on a dome on the banks of the Thames or something instead, I mean that really did help the London infrastructure, and sped up the traffic flow around Greenwich didn't it?
Alternatively we could build a Super Casino in Hull, run by an American entrepreneur of course, or anybody who's not British will do!

Get real folks, look at the cost of the Olympics, and the way it's rising daily, nothing's cheap these days, the old bridge will be unsafe for HGVs in 2012, and something is required to carry all the traffic across the Forth.

As for the idea of repairing HADRIAN's Wall, do remember that walls work in both directions ¦¬]

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:00 AM

bubblyrat, I believe you that a billion was a million to the power of 2 (bi = two, like in bicyle) when you went to school, but just a little comparison could have told you that this can not be meant here.

We still have the old system in my language:
trillion = a million to the power of three
quadrillion = a million to the power of four...

Easy system: An octillion would a a million to the power of eight (octo like in octopus) and since a million has 6 zeros an octillion has to have 6 times 8 = 48 zeros.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: skipy
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:03 AM

Replace the wall with toll gates, that will stop them coming South!
Skipy (joking!)

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:31 AM

Can I collect the tolls please?
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: GUEST,Mr Red
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:39 AM

you want to join the Toll Packs? - better than a poll tax at least.

Now the origin of the word Google is........................?

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:44 AM

Googol after a character in the book King Solomon's Mines by H Rider Haggard surely?

G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: GUEST,HughM
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:01 AM

Wasn't that Gagool? I could be wrong though - it's about 45 years since I read the book.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:49 AM

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:58 AM

There is a reason scientists use standard form. 'It should cost roughly 10^9 pounds sterling' has the same meaning the world over.

It does have the slight problem that most members of the public are either to poorly educated, stupid, or willfully ignorant (It's science, I don't do science) to understand it, but I'm sure politicians could find a good use for this....

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Grab
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:01 AM

Googol was a nonsense word thought up by a kid. Link.

For the benefit of bubblyrat, a billion in common usage today, even in the UK, is a thousand million. A million million is a trillion. This was fixed a while back by ISO standards (1970s IIRC).

Whether this is a problem for English taxpayers depends on whether you consider the UK to be separate countries. If you do, then you should also object to Scottish taxpayers funding road developments in your area, which of course they do.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:57 AM

Is this new bridge to cope with the predicted increase in traffic when the government introduces the mileage charge?

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:05 AM

Re. "billion": yes, it used to be true that a UK billion was a million million, and a US billion was a thousand million.

To avoid the confusion, a UK billion was redefined (not sure when) to be the same as a US one, i.e. 1,000,000,000.

So I'm guessing the cost of the new bridge is that amount, and not 1,000,000,000,000. Assuming they haven't badly cocked up the estimates as usual, and have got it right for once (what are the chances of that, eh?) they could build 1,000 new bridges across the Forth for that money. Or they could just cover the river completely.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:13 AM

Of course, for that sort of money, you could use the pretty solution and just tunnel under the firth. It's rather faulted, and stuffed with odd lumps of hard volcanic rocks, but it's just an engineering problem. so can be solved with sufficient money...

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:32 AM

Bunnahabhain, you're right about standard form. A lot of people still think to the power of means times. 10x9 =£90; wow that's good value for a whole bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:13 AM

If another Forth Bridge is that important to the Scottish "Government", why don"t they apply for EEC funding ?? Brussels has already thrown millions if not billions of pounds at The Shetlands ,or somewhere like that,which has been spent on motorways,swimming pools & leisure -centres in probably the least-populated part of the UK !!! So there"s obviously loads of money to spare !!

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:55 AM

A new bridge is important to ALL in the UK, and to the tourists that provide these islands with such a large part of our income. I am quite sure that if EC funding is available for the work then it will be applied for. This is the same EC funding as is given to projects all across the UK, including the smug South Eastern corner.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:32 PM

We still have the old system in my language:
trillion = a million to the power of three
quadrillion = a million to the power of four... Wolfgang

In a shift here: What do you call the months of the year, Wolfgang? SEPTember, OCTober, NOVember, DECember?

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Alba
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 12:02 AM

A new Bridge!
Bloody silly eh. Building a bridge to ease Traffic flow problems and make access to the North easier for Tourists who bring in a large chunk of revenue to the UK yearly.
No,no if any money has to spent it should be spent on something constructive and useful, you know something with a purpose like...this very practical structure!

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: patriot1314
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 03:44 AM

Not sure about tunneling under the Forth. Isn't there supposed to some sort of secret nuclear bunker type thingy in there?

Probably is, it's about as far from London as they could get it!

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 04:35 AM

Don't think so Patriot 1314. There's one in Fife somewhere, and the BP refinery at Grangemouth is designated at another.

In case you were wondering, as an Oil refinery is, in simple terms, several thousand tons of boiling Hydrocarbons, the control buildings for these places share a fair number of features with Nuclear bunkers, ie very very thick walls, blast doors, and full environmental set-ups.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:17 AM

I wouldn"t say that people in the South-East were SMUG .From an environmental point of view,it"s a disaster,compared to Scotland.More like SMOG than SMUG ( although we don"t have as many midges ). What concerns me,is that the Scottish Parliament can call for the construction of a new Forth bridge,to be funded,no doubt, by English taxpayers,whilst no such national organisation exists whereby the English can make any such decisions. This problem is not going to be resolved,until we have our own English Parliament,or National Assembly.In any case,there are far too many Scottish MPs in our government ,all milking the English for everything they can get their hate-filled,hard-done-by,ancient -history-obsessed,royalty-hating hands on.The thought of Gordon Brown becoming Prime Minister is terrifying !!If he continues to make it obvious as to how much he loathes England & the English, there could be serious public unrest !!

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:19 AM

You do realise that Tony Blair is Scottish too, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Grab
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:50 AM

why don't they apply for EEC funding

Stating the obvious, but the EC can only give out the money it gets in. It gets that money from the UK and other European countries. So potentially the UK government gets back money it's already given, and you're pissed off already about the UK government spending money on Scotland, so that doesn't make sense. Or some other European countries pay for it, and you're pissed off about people who don't live there having to pay for it, so that doesn't make sense either.

Incidentally, a quick check on Google maps shows no motorways in Shetland - in fact, no motorways at all north of Dundee. I assume you don't mind there being motorways between Dundee, Edinburgh and Glasgow?

If you'd like to let us know where "somewhere like that is", there might be a bit less Michael-extraction as a result... ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:12 AM

The EU, along with with lots of other Governments, or almost government type bodies, is rather good at spending money with very little relation to what they actually get in...

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:22 AM

After the Skye Bridge fiasco, I should think a PPF{?} is out of the question.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: patriot1314
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 01:46 PM

Bubblyrat,

You know, in a kind of perverse way, I agree with you.
However, it's a double edged sword, As a Scot, I've already paid my share of the millenium dome etc. along with various other money squandering projects all over the UK.
I've now got the Olympics coming up, I read recently that Montreal is STILL paying for theirs from 1976!

You're right though, I'm not a great lover of the union.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Bluegrassman
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 04:48 PM

I hope they build a new six laner so we can get to Guildtown quicker every August

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:29 PM

To my mind the problem is the roads on either side which can't cope with the amount of traffic that the bridge brings over the Forth already.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 07:46 PM

It seems that basic math is a bit of a problem in this thread. Even the very premis, that Scotland has only four bridges seems a gross underestimate. Even if we take that to be true would not another Forth bridge have to be the FIFTH... Duh? Or is this a question of metrics, a concept that has always been well beyond the grasp of we the people of the United States of America??
Nick

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:23 AM

Don't you have friends who were 29 for a couple of years running as they got themselves ready to be 30. It's like that, we can have as many forths as we want before getting to a fifth.

Subject: RE: BS: New Forth Bridge in Scotland
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:49 AM

I'll have a fifth of good bourbon if you're offering!
G.