BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush

Subject: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: heric
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 01:39 AM

I'm reading a book by one of my current favorite authors, Australian Richard Flanagan. He is getting some comic play out of the phrase "Sydney or the bush." I think I have a pretty good grasp on its meaning, but I'm not sure. Is this a common expression, with a commonly accepted meaning? Thanks if you can help.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: JennieG
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 03:07 AM

The term "the bush" is used to mean anywhere outside a city or town. Folks coming from the bush are called "bushies". City folk and bushies look down on each other.

What's the book you are reading?

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: heric
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:00 AM

Hi, it's Death of River Guide. This one colorful character, mildly famous for flicking her cigar ash and stub around, does things such as leaving a stub in a jar of jam where she worked packing jams. She said people shouldn't be eating such a poor product anyway "Sydney or Bust!" At a funeral, she interrupts the minister at graveside, finishes the eulogy, and flicks the stub into the grave. The narrator talks as if that says it all: "Sydney or bust. Life or Death. There are no other choices."

So I got the impression it meant there is only one best way to think, be, go, or do something, and then everything else.

Since I asked, I see it described in the "Macquarie dictionary of Australian Slang" as "gamble against the odds; all or nothing attempt; do or die," which is different than I had thought.

You're giving me the impression it's not a routine phrase.

Thanks


"Why had she put the butt in a tin of jam that would be opened b some poor housewife in the new and hyperventilating Australian suburbia? 'Sydney or the bush,' she would reply, burnishing the phrase with dark smoke as she spoke. 'The jam they made was shit. People ought not to be so foolish as to buy it. Either make good jam or don't eat it at all. That last cigar was my warning to the good Australian people on this matter.'"

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:51 AM

Not "Sydney or bust," Sydney or the bush," of course. (It's early here.) I wrote that because a different website had described the phrase as equivalent to the US' "Hollywood or bust."

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: GUEST,ozchick
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 04:29 PM

I've not heard that saying, but I live closer to Melbourne.... and there's a huge rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne cultures. Could be a Sydney phrase?

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:00 PM

For me, "Sydney or the Bush" is the same as the old song title "How They Gonna Keep Them Down On The Farm (After They've Seen Paree?)" i.e. Paris. There are masses of young people living in rural areas who are busting to get into the bright lights, big city world of Sydney and other capital cities. I don't know if this fits the novel, but if the character moved to Sydney from a rural area then maybe that's what the saying is about. If the character is desperate to make it in the city because the alternative is to go back to a mind-numbingly boring life in the bush, with presumably, in her opinion, people who think in an extremely narrow sphere of reference, then that might explain why everything she does is "Sydney or the Bush".

The "Sydney or bust" idea is similar.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:19 PM

For lyrics of the song about keeping them on the farm, see this thread, and the lyrics were posted by The Walrus, 19 Apr 06 - 08:26 PM.

WWII songs

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:27 PM

The two phrases resonate around the same notion but express slightly different ideas.

Sydney or bust could well be equivalent to Hollywood or bust, in the sense of 'go for broke', 'give it your best shot', 'pull out all the stops' etc.

Sydney or the bush is usually carrying the message that Sydney is the only place worth the candle; everywhere else (whether a capital city or an isolated country pub) is "nowhere, man!"
It's mostly used by Sydneysiders. And, while all the interstaters give each other a fair amount of stick, there are those in rural NSW who can be quite disparaging about "Sydney".

Such as, "NSW really stands for Newcastle, Sydney, Wollongong."
Or "Outside the sandstone curtain ...." if you're desribing "the real world".
Sydneysiders have routinely been accused of thinking that "the west" starts at Parramatta (about 40 clicks west of the CBD) and "the Far West" starts at Katoomba (at the top of the Blue Mountains and where lots of city workers commute from, by train, daily in an hour or so's trip.

Being exMelbourne, I reckon its because of their penal colony background.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 05:48 PM

Thanks this was helpful and I'm glad I asked. I think these will fit the book in some way, and I'll probably see why more clearly further in. I'm near the beginning. The protagonist lives in Tasmania, and is remembering the smoking woman's antics. She may have been in Sydney at the time – but with Flanagan I won't be surprised to find that she is a lifelong denizen of Tasmania using that phrase.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Helen
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 06:41 PM

Yeah, Rowan, I'm from "NSW" i.e. Newcastle, but I still say Sydney is a good place to visit (once in a while) but it's a great place to leave. :-) Newcastle is the best!!

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 07:04 PM

Queensland, the Sunshine State - "Beautiful one day, perfect the next!"

... until you find out the hard way about "The Joke"


(old Police Joke about Corruption)

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: JennyO
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 08:50 PM

Strange - I'm a long time resident of Sydney, but I grew up in "the bush" (ie not Sydney) - and I'm not at all familiar with it as a common expression.

Anywhere but Sydney is also called "the sticks" - even the outer western suburbs can be referred to as "the sticks". Being "a westie" is not regarded by those further in as a Good Thing. I am even pushing it by living in Earlwood and not Redfern, Newtown or Erskineville.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: heric
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:02 PM

"She would draw her right hand into a fist and throw a few jabs with the cigar jammed between her finger, a smouldering knuckle duster, to dramatise her final point. 'Good jam (jab) or no jam (jab) But never that shit. (jab) Sydney or the bush.'"

;)

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:07 PM

Londoners also use "the sticks" - it refers to anything outside the centre couple of miles, and the part of London where the person using the term lives themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: John O'L
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:08 PM

I grew up in Sydney, as did both my parents, and I've never heard the expression "Sydney or the bush".

I'd guess it would mean that Sydney is the centre of the known world and all elsewhere is uncivilized and not worthy of consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:12 PM

Charles Schulz used the phrase in his "Peanuts" cartoon strip during the late '50s/early '60s. I think he had Sally using it.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: GUEST,John Gray in Oz
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:17 PM

I'm a Melbournite, a 1000km south of Sydney , but I've known of the phrase since I was very young.
An example would be if you were at the horse races, losing heavily,
with just one race to go. Turning to your mates you would say, "I'm
betting the last of my money on this one so, depending on the outcome, its going to be Sydney or the bush for me."

JG / FME

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: heric
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 09:30 PM

aha! So it likely didn't originate with Sydneysians, choosing to be smug. In the states, after you won that bet, you would say "I'm going to Disneyland!"

(But that was started by a deliberate paid campaign by Disney.)

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: heric
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 10:07 PM

(From this scientific little study, one might guess that the expression didn't originate in Sydney, and that our fictional smoking lady, wherever she's from, probably appropriated it for her own use and intended meaning.)

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 15 Feb 07 - 11:45 PM

G'day all,

To slip slightly to ther left of the subject area ... in another thread I remarked to Charley Noble that the triangle defined by Rowan as NSW (Newcastle Sydney & Wollongong - instead of New South & Wales) is also a 'linguistic enclave', with it own peculiar slang words for many terms that have otherwise consistent terms across the rest of Australia.

(And that's apart from Sydneyites considering everywhere else "The Bush"!)

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: rich-joy
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 12:34 AM

Growing up in West Aussie in the 50s, I feel that I've "always known" that expression (Sydney or the Bush) ... so maybe it's more common OUTside of Sydney, than within??!! (I kinda have a memory of it being used by famous, old, Oz poets/authors though ... Lawson perhaps??!!)

"Out in the sticks" however, was regarded as somewhat closer than "beyond the black stump"!!


Cheers! R-J

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 12:54 AM

It's not mentioned in my 'Oxford Companion to Australian Folklore' but it is in Bill Wannan's 'Australian Folklore'

Sir Robrt menzies in the course of his 1967Ditchley Foundation lecture, delivered at Ditchley Park, near Oxford England said: "There is an old saying in Australia, when a vital choice has to be made: Sydney or the bush. All or nothing, as you might say"
source - quoted in The Australian, (Sydney, 29th July 1967)

I tried to find a free searchable Macquarie Dictonary as I don't have an Australian dictionary, but can't find anything.

But Bob has lots' dictionaries!

Warren Fahey's site
There was a popular saying: 'Sydney or the Bush!' It was offered as almost a dare as if the two were miles apart – and, of course, they were and still are. Viva le difference! Sydney was also known as the city of four S's – Sea, Sin, Sex and Sorrow. There is much folklore surrounding bushies coming down to the 'Big Smoke' and, sadly, many of these trips were an extremely sorrowful story. It's true the cashed-up bush worker was occasionally 'lambed down' in the first or even second outback shanty he ventured into, but, in some ways, this was preferable to the 'lambing down' those who did reach the city often experienced, most of it self-inflicted! The reality is that many the isolated bush worker bolstered his (and sometimes her) routine boredom by thinking of the eventual 'great escape' to Sydney to 'live it up'. Tales were told and retold in the shearing huts, drover's camps and wayside shanties, of how the city 'eats bush people for breakfast' but this only added to their determination to experience for themselves. There are also stories of cityslickers venturing into the bush – an equally scary proposition for many the new chum.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Hrothgar
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 05:13 AM

Only good thing to come out of Sydney is the Pacific Highway.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: aussiebloke
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 05:17 AM


I also recall one of the Peanuts characters using the phrase in comic books I was reading in the 70s.

To express the same meaning, my father, a Londoner would say 'this will either make it or break it'.

My copy of The Dinkum Dictionary (A ripper guide to Aussie English), 1988 Helen Johansen (Claremont) offers this succinct definition:

Sydney or the bush
all or nothing, complete success or total failure

The Dictionary of Australian Colloquialisms, 1985 GA Wilkes (Sydney University Press) offers a definition and several examples of usage:

1924 Truth (Melbourne Newspaper) April 6:
Sydney or the bush: All or nothing

1930 E. Shann An Economic History of Australia p365:
'Sydney or the bush!' cries the Australian when he gambles against odds, and the slogan betrays a heart turning ever towards the pleasant coastal capitals.

1945 Cecil Mann The River p45:
He bet on a Sydney or the Bush basis; and now, to-morrow, it was the Bush.

1953 T.A.G. Hungerford Riverslake p127;
'Spin for five', Murdoch suggested to Novikowsky. 'Sydney or the bush!'

1969 Mr David Fairbairn [challenging Mr Gorton for the leadership of the Liberal Party] Bulletin 15 November p27:
'Well, gentlemen, the die is cast. For me it's Sydney or the bush - Kirribilli or Woomargama.'

1970 Richard Beilby No Medals for Aphrodite p34:
'Here we go.' Turk murmured grimly, climbing in behind the wheel. 'It's Sydney or the bush! Keep your fingers crossed.'

1983 Sun (Sydney Newspaper) 30 December p39;
It's hard to pick a middle ground. The [investment] choices for next year appear to be boom or bust, Sydney or the bush.

Cheers all

aussiebloke

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Helen
Date: 16 Feb 07 - 06:27 PM

I wonder whether the saying is somehow related to the tradition of humping the bluey or waltzing Matilda, i.e. humping = carrying a bluey = a swag or bedroll.

That means deciding that you couldn't make it in the city and taking to the roads, in the bush and into small towns looking for whatever work is available. In hard times including the Great Depression this was a viable way to make a living, but a tough way to do it. So the term, Sydney or the bush could mean yhat the alternatives were to be living it up in town, or to be forced to go out to the bush to do it tough, including, for example, if you blew all your money on gambling.

Just a thought.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 08 - 02:47 PM

In the movie You're a good Man Charlie Brown(1969). the kids say it twice to Charlie Brown as he goes off to compete in a national spelling bee in the big city.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: GUEST,Jamaican247
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

It's funny... I found this website because I was wondering what 'Sydney or the Bush!' meant from reading the Complete Peanuts Vol.8 1965 to 1966.

Linus first says it to Charlie Brown as he's about to bat. Then later Sally says it to her brother before a goes out to teach a bully a lesson.

I wonder if Sparky made a trip Down Under around that time...

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Rowan
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 10:38 PM

Bob's (And that's apart from Sydneyites considering everywhere else "The Bush"!) was, coincidentally, revisited in my reading over the last week or so when I saw a comment attributed to a Sydneysider of (I think) the 1950s that was quoted as
"If you're not in Sydney, you're camping."

I'll have to check it out to find the exact item. And, Flanagan has written on Sydney, very descriptively, in his "The unknown terrorist", which I'm about half way through as I write this.

CHeers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: GUEST
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:25 AM

I believe Sparky got the right definition. I wonder what Americans may have thought about it when they heard it as he repeats it a few times. Who is Sydney and what exactly is the term the bush defined in America. Isn't it brushfire, not bushfire? Shulz must have had some fascination with Australia. I think they are some other references. I know Snoopy imitates a kangaroo, and there is that phrase. "It's not the end of the world Charlie Brown. It's already tomorrow in Australia."

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:00 AM

"Only good thing to come out of Sydney is the Pacific Highway."

North of course.... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: quokka
Date: 18 May 08 - 06:12 AM

I thought the phrase originated with the rivalry between those who liked the work of Henry Lawson as opposed to those who preferred Banjo Paterson's work - it may have been a class thing because I'm pretty sure both wrote about urban and rural themes....I could be wrong, it's a while since I dug out my Henry and Banjo
Cheers,
Quokka

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Azizi
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:59 AM

If the Bush has anything to do with that American political family, I'll take Sydney, whoever he or she is.

:o}

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Rowan
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:15 AM

From Guest: Who is Sydney and what exactly is the term the bush defined in America. Isn't it brushfire, not bushfire?

"The Bush", as in Ozspeak, is anywhere 'away from the civilised world' which can mean (depending on where the speaker lives and their attitude to other mortals) the outer suburbs of Sydney or "back of Bourke" aka "beyond the black stump". And we no longer talk about Lord Sydney so Sydney isn't a person anymore; like the Olympic Committee President (the one with the dodgy past with the Nazis) said, "Syd a ney" is a place, now.

And, as for Azizi's If the Bush has anything to do with that American political family, I'll take Sydney, you'd be welcome here, although George Dubya (he of the "nucular" weapons references) is commonly known as "The Shrub" and isn't confused (well, he might be, but we aren't) with "The Bush".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 May 08 - 12:14 AM

G'day Rowan,

With your academic background (Was that: "~ successional ecology"...?). I suspect you might advise the GUEST of your quotation that what we experience is no "brushfire". The 'bushfire' that burns through a large tract of Australian eucalypt forest can approach something like the volatility of a major fire in a petrochemicals plant!

Anyway, I was interested to see that Prof. Gerald Wilkes' 1985 quotations (about 10 posts up) were all on the betting sense - our local equivalent to the famous "London to a brick" phrase of one of our earlier racecallers. I should drag down my 1988 Oxford Australian National Dictionary to see what senses the Oxford "Australian Language group" added.

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Rowan
Date: 20 May 08 - 01:48 AM

Greetings Bob,

You're right, of course, but there are people who get twitchy if you imply their disaster is not more devastating than someone else's; not knowing anything about Guest, I chose to avoid the risk.

My understanding of the American "brush" is that is not as tall as Oz "forest"; most professionals in Oz use a version of Ray Specht's structural classification of vegetation, where "woodland" has its upper canopy ~15m high and "forest" has its canopy well above that, often reaching 100m. I suspect US "brush" is more similar to Oz "woodland" than to our "forest" and flame heights of 100-200m are truly awesome; I doubt many would confuse such a conflagration with a brushfire.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: Rowan
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:10 AM

Senior moments strike again; how could I have got it so mixed up?

Specht's classification has (and I hope the table is decipherable)
Density of tallest stratum 70-100%,    30-70%;                      10-30%,    <10%
Ht of tallest stratum
Shrubs 0-2m                     closed- or   open- heath;             low    or    low open-shrubland
Shrubs 2-8m                     closed- or   open- scrub;             tall      or    tall open-shrubland
Trees 5-10m                     low closed- or low open-forest; low    or    low open-woodland
Trees 10-30m                  closed- or   open- forest;             woodland or open-woodland
Trees >30m                      tall closed-   or tall open-forest; tall woodland or tall open-woodland

I suspect Guest's US brush may be equivalent to Oz scrub, shrubland or low closed-forest; the biggest forest fires in Oz occur in tall open-forest.

Cheers, Rowan (I can go back to sleep, now)

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 May 08 - 03:49 AM

Sydney or the bush - all or nothing.

Hrothgar, I'll refrain from making comments about banana benders..
:-)

well said, Azizi, but THAT family has nothing to do with the Australian bush...

The Australian bush is a scarred, wild landscape, large enough and lonely enough for white people to get completely lost in, steeped in mystery and walked for eons by our indigenous aussies.

across the country it's varied enough and beautiful enough to lure people into decades of "bushwalking", and to seduce artists poets and songwriters into new forms of work. our indigenous artists' work is unique, having evolved out of stories and colours of our unique landscapes.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 May 08 - 07:27 AM

Of course the most dangerous and violent Aussie bushfire occurs in eucalyptus - The US is now prone to these in some parts, having planted the trees over there... ;-)

The most dangerous circumstance is when there has been a long hot dry spell - the eukys give off a flammable vapour that is almost like the US military 'vapour bombs'. Flames will explode, throwing burning ash in front, and the infrared heat can ignite things at considerable distance. Also the most extreme is when the blaze starts 'crowning' - racing thru the tops of the trees much faster than thru the underbrush - this is at a speed that nothing, even vehicles can get away from. Very nasty is when such a crowning blaze heads uphill, the speed (and the noise) is immense.

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: heric
Date: 20 May 08 - 11:24 PM

This thread causes such an inexpicable longing in me. I've never even been there, but I can't help frequently thinking that Sydney is where I should be. I have felt that way for many years.

I do, however, have a consolation prize in experiencing Eucalyptus trees breaking, crashing, exploding, throwing ashes and sparks in front and igniting things at a considerable distance - So I've got that part going for me. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: ozspeak: Sydney or the Bush
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 May 08 - 12:50 AM

Well heric, most Aussies will happily give that experience away to foreigners...