BS: England's Evil Empire

Subject: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 03:42 PM

Book Description
"They invented slums. They invented child labor. They put Saddam Hussein in power. They burned Joan of Arc at the stake, and they enslaved the globe to get their tea fix. We're talking about England, of course, and the terrible evils they've set loose on the world. In The Evil Empire, American author Steven Grasse documents the 101 worst atrocities of Mother England everything from foxhunting to the invention of the concentration camp. With an irreverent mix of historical facts, smart commentary, and red-blooded American arrogance, Grasse offers a devastating critique of the country that gave us the machine gun, factory labor, and the metric system. Publishing just in time for the Queen's birthday (April 21), The Evil Empire is essential reading for true-blue Americans and others oppressed by the English throughout history."

This is the blurb from Amazon for a new book by Steven Grasse. What do Mudcatters think? Do you want to fly to America to shake Grasse's hand or to punch him on the nose?

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 03:45 PM

So - what has England done LATELY ?

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 03:50 PM

yeh and all those crap folksongs...what a gang of arseholes! there should be fence just keeping them on the one island....Madagascar ,perhaps.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 03:57 PM

Maybe its just my American background but I have always thought of England as a culture of oppression but I guess you can say that about the U.S. too. For that matter, many governments tend to be oppressive. He probably focussed on England because of its colonial period. Easy to write about and lots of historical fact.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 04:11 PM

I haven't read the book.

I am aware of English history, and I am also aware that perspectives on it coming from academics in countries that were subject to British imperialism are generally a bit more scathing than those found in English or American publications.

Even world maps are still disproportionate in the way they represent the size of Britain and Ireland. You would think Mali or Libya weren't actually that big by comparison if it weren't for other source material.

And it is of course important that this kind of post colonial nostalgia have it's bubble burst from time to time, lest the world forget and be insppired to come up with copycat ideas like lebensraum (Hitler was equally inspired by other altogether more embarrassing aspects of British history - slaughter of jews being one and concentration camps being another).

HOWEVER!

Merely listing atrocities committed by a country comes to me from a questionable motive. It sounds like a pretty fundamentalist way of looking at history.

It seems like an immature attempt to tittilate the ego's of the "right-on"'s in society. What historical value does it have?

It lists historical events that have already been uncovered without offering any new perspectives by the sound of it, so it isn't saying anything that we don't alrready know.

I would call it an "ammo" book for the Brit basher, and the aforementioned "right-on"'s. I can imagine army's of socialist worker newspaper sellers with well thumbed copies in their back pockets ready to whip them out like penis extensions, at a moments notice, to justify whatever spurious theory they have chosen to espouse for that moment.

... just a gut reaction to a book I haven't read though ...

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 04:15 PM

What! The Brits get no credit for drug running to China, or introducing VD to large areas of the Pacific? The trouble is, who does the "England's Evil Empire" refer to? How many mill workers, miners, soldiers, sailors or labourers got a cushy number because of this empire? There probably is a big enough buffoon somewhere, who really does believe that the UK is a land of Jeeves and Bertie Woosters. It's as intelligent as believing that "Dallas" is an accurate portrayal of everyday American life.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 04:17 PM

Isn't Dallas an accurate portrayal of american life?

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 04:45 PM

THIS
: is the current entry, as it stands, for Mr Grasse....

I've tried to Google for his name, & if its the same bloke, he has a history of 'controversy' & some ridicule (unsurprisingly!) films classed as 'Rotten Tomatoes' on the film review site of that name, etc.

There was a thread about the book on another site I visit, a week or so ago, but I can't find the thread on there again.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:03 PM

Ooops...I meant to say that sthe current WIKIPEDIA entry for him - interesting in that, as it says: "This page may meet Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion. The given reason is: It is a page created primarily to disparage its subject" - I wonder how long it will remain unchanged from that!

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: folk1e
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:11 PM

What has england done recently?
It all depends on how recent you want to be!
If you include the time of the "empire" ......
Abolition of Slavery
Starting State democracy
The industrial revolution
Preventing Hitler from ruling the world
modern nursing
What that is not recent enough for you?
Well how about stopping the prolifferation of G.M. crops?
The computer
modern high speed aircraft
If you look there are many examples of both good and bad issues any empire is involved with. Some may not like the results of our penal system! others do!
Anyway I can win the arguement with one word ..... BEER

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: mrdux
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM

Grasse descibes himself on the book's webpage:

"Steven A. Grasse is a cultural studies analyst and media communications expert, who has extensively studied the British Empire. He is also the spokesperson for the International Coalition for British Reparations (ICBR), a massive global initiative for reparations from England worth 58 trillion dollars. . . This is his first book, and given the Brits' thin skins and their adeptness at manipulating history, he will not be surprised if it turns out to be his last." http://www.evilempirebook.com/author.php

I've also seen him described as a "Philadelphia advertising executive" (the Daily Pennsylvanian), who has spent "a lifetime in marketing" (the Daily Mail).

He's probably not the same guy as the Steve Grasse who directed two "Bikini Bandits" movies.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM

The worst single thing you could blame Emgland for was creating the US and its state ideology. Compared with that, the Amritsar massacre and the partition of India are trivial.

The "concentration camps" thing is a popular US urban legend, but the US imposed them on the Indians in a far more brutal way, and used them in the Civil War, decades before Britain tried them in South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:33 PM

How would y'all define the difference between a jail and a concentration camp?

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:39 PM

Jack Campin, I think your reasoning and conclusion, not to mention your terminology, needs some tweaking.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:46 PM

"Preventing Hitler from ruling the world" - everyone knows it was the Americans who did this - they keep telling us -

"This is his first book, and given the Brits' thin skins and their adeptness at manipulating history, he will not be surprised if it turns out to be his last."

Any idea what that's supposed to mean?

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 05:55 PM

Aha! Thanks mrdux....I stand corrected, though I think it was an understandable error....both individuals seem to court controversy.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 06:12 PM

"The "concentration camps" thing is a popular US urban legend"

I'm not American, nor do I live in America, therefore I am not exposed to American Urban Mythology.

The British interned Boer families: men, women and children in concentration camps during the boer war. These were the first concentration camps, existing purely to "concentrate" boers in one place.

They weren't prisoners of war or criminals.

Hence the terms used.

PS I am also neither Boer nor Dutch.

The boers descendents, Afrikaaners, remember the cruelty of the British well (Ironic given their treatment of Black and coloured Africans yes, but true nonetheless).

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 07:53 PM

American Japanese also were not 'prisoners of war' nor criminals but merely concentrated. The fact that there were barbed wire fences around the perimeter and they were not allowed to leave- unless they went off to fight for the Allies - surely didn't matter. Right?

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:03 PM

Its evil, don't listen to the apologists.

it really stinks, particularly the folk music.

they all wear fisherman's smocks, and have secret signs sticking fingers in their ears, and pretend to like real ale, and it gives them brain damage and they forget the words to songs that should have died out years ago - cos they're crap, and they have festivals where they eat human faesces called vegeburgers...and play concertinas...the bastards!

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:24 PM

The urban legend is not that the British used concentration camps, it's the idea that they *invented* them. The US had been herding Indians into them for decades before the Boer War, with far more genocidal effect.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:29 PM

lox - "Even world maps are still disproportionate in the way they represent the size of Britain and Ireland. You would think Mali or Libya weren't actually that big by comparison if it weren't for other source material"

I agree. have you seen the 'Peters Projection' maps? They show the world proportionately - quite different to what we are used to seeing.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Peace
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:40 PM

Here's a pic.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Ricky
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:41 PM

Ah please don't use the Ireland word, that's the trigger word for Keith from Heartfordshire

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 08:44 PM

What concentration camp(s) did the US "herd" the Indians into, Jack Campin? Reservations, yes, but reservations were not fenced and most of them are many square miles in size. Hardly a concentration camp.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 09:42 PM

Well, I would agree that England was guilty of a great many wrongs all through its imperial phase. However, I think they passed the imperial torch, albeit somewhat unwillingly, to the USA in 1945, and the USA has never looked back. Will Steven Grasse do a book on America's Evil (Mercantile) Empire next, I wonder, just to be fair? ;-)

The Soviets had a good kick at the imperial can too, till they ran out of money.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 11:33 PM

I wonder if Mel Gibson will buy up the film rights?

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 03:43 AM

In the 1830's, Native Americans still lived in their native lands for the most part. However, white men considered them a threat to peace. So, in 1838, the Federal government had what they called the "Five Civilized Tribes" removed. These tribes were the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, and Seminole. They were moved at a forced march up to 800 miles from their homelands to the "Indian Territory", which is modern-day Oklahoma. Under cruel conditions, the army forced the peaceful tribes through the cold, winter weather to their new homes. During this ordeal, known as the "Trail of Tears", over 4,000 Cherokees alone died, out of the 15,000 moved. They died due to disease, exposure, and starvation.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 04:09 AM

Europe ravaged the west coast of Africa for slaves, the British Oppressed the Irish, The Japanese did horrible things to the Chinese and Koreans, Ghengis Khan forcibly populated the world with children carrying his genes (the most succesful genetic human strain ever) and Native Americans were treated with the utmost cruelty by their conquering opressors.

All terrible atrocities.

The British invented the concentration camp in South Africa. If this is wrong then there will be examples that show it to be so.

Feel free to supply them anytime you like.

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 04:11 AM

ps - I mean factually not morally ...

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Wordsmith
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 04:23 AM

Well, I haven't read the book and don't intend to, but I just had to put my two-cents in. We have some blue-blooded arrogant Americans here in the USA; one of them is descended from British Kings, as was his father, former President, George HW Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 04:23 AM

here is a basic explanation

concentration camps


I think that you are confuse between the creation in south Africa of concentration camps and the creation of "homelands" something which would be comparable to the creation of reservations in North America.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 04:43 AM

I feel several cliches coming on: "History is written by the winners", "Power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely" etc., etc., etc.
All empires do bad things but they have a tendency to forget them (even if their victims don't) and only teach their children about the good things.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:01 AM

I have been embroiled in this argument over and over. England is not evil. The English people are not evil. Politicians and people of power are the ones who commit these atrocities and they are the same whatever nationality they are. The popular press are evil in perpetuating these myths.

Mr Grasse is not wrong in his book, it is only his terminology. If by 'England' he means the ruling classes he is spot on. As 'England' does not exist as a political entity in it's own right and has not for 300 years I have no objection to the term being taken over to mean something else.

What we need now of course is home rule for Lancashire and a new name for that bit of Britain south of Scotland and east of Wales!

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Stu
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:15 AM

"The Evil Empire is essential reading for true-blue Americans and others oppressed by the English throughout history"

Nice to see everyone's moving on then. Luckily, over here in the Isles themselves we are getting over the past, although it's not an easy process as many here will attest. The recent Ireland/England match at Croke Park was a demonstration that the people have had enough of past divisions and conflict. Interestingly, much of the movement towards peace, although started by politicans is being made irreversible by the people themselves who are tired of the suffering (heck - we're all related anyway, as you can read here).

"but reservations were not fenced and most of them are many square miles in size" Don't even go there Ebbie - the US has nothing to be proud of in the way it has treated (and continues to do so) the indiginous population of North America. There might not have been concentration camps, but it's impossible to gauge the suffering created and perpetuated by the US Government and it's agents to this day (http://www.freepeltier.org/ is a good starting point for those in need of elucidation).

A lot of noise being made by people here, who to quote Dianavan"have always thought of England as a culture of oppression". Well, set your own house in order before you start criticising others. As far as a sordid history of oppression, ethnic cleansing and abuse of human rights goes we all know who is still writing history on that front at the moment.

But it's easy to mud-sling on Mudcat. As alanbit suggests, it's not the ordinary people who ran the British Empire but the same sort of egotistical, self-important tosser who run governments the world over to this day, and that rule applies wherever the people in charge behave in an unacceptable manner.

Although I have not read it, I suspect this odious little tome is designed to make people in the US feel less guilty about the fact their government is involved in oppression, torture and false imprisonment, whilst the sensationalist title will appeal to the less discerning readers amongst the populace.

For those in the US who actually want to take their heads out from up their arses a far more balanced read would be The Isles: A History by Norman Davis, which attempts a less anglo-centric history of the Islands.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: ard mhacha
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:17 AM

Little Hawk you are spot on regarding England handing over to the US the whip long used by the English to lash obedience into their unwilling overseas subjects, while Blair and his predecessors tagged behind like obedient poodles.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Stu
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:18 AM

Arrgghh! Forgot to close my "i" tags!

Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Dazbo
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:35 AM

Strange isn't it. Continually we get from the Scots, Irish and Welsh that the English continually confuse England with Britain yet whenever the BRITISH empire did anything wrong it's the ENGLISH that did it! Come on you Celts! you can't have it both ways: the Scots, Irish and Welsh can't claim on the one hand that they contributed mightily to the success of the Empire yet blame the English for all the ills of that empire. You're as much to blame as the English for the positive and negative aspects of the empire.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Dazbo
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:40 AM

Max Hastings's Rebuttal

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Grab
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 05:48 AM

but reservations were not fenced and most of them are many square miles in size

Who needs wire when you've got a few hundred miles of desert with no food or water...?

They invented slums. They invented child labor.

Eh? "Slum" is an invented concept to describe what was considered sub-standard housing when general housing standards improved. If we say that the Brits invented it, then we credit the British with having raised housing standards sufficiently that what everyone previously thought was an OK working-class house was now considered sub-standard.

As for child labour, better talk to the Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons. Children *not* working is a very modern idea.

And I'm not sure how the metric system (invented by the French, incidentally - nice to see this is a pure work of fiction) and industrialised production methods qualify as "bad".

No, I wouldn't travel to the US to punch him on the nose. But I might travel to the US to shout at people who consider buying this, "Where did you leave your brain this morning, fuckwit?!"

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:02 AM

Guest Lox, you tell us that Boers remember British cruelty.
Why do you think that? I have met Afrikaners and never get that impression.
Most Boers supported Britain in WW1 just 14 years later, and again in WW2.
South Africa was suspended from the British Commonwealth over their racial policies, but they were happy to rejoin when they sorted it out.
Equally false claims of historic emnity between us and Kenya have recently appeared on this forum.
It is just not true. The old Empire are Britain's friends and allies.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: folk1e
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:08 AM

I include "industrial prodution methods" on the good side!
Post industrial production methods are better!
It isn't perfect by any means but how about the inclusion of migrant workers and Ethnic Minorities? I think we have generally done O.K. in that respect.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Bee
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 06:37 AM

Motes and beams: there is no country that doesn't have history to be ashamed of and history to be proud of; Mr. Grasse is just pandering to the US market for 'see? we're not as bad as so-and-so'.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:01 AM

have you seen the 'Peters Projection' maps? They show the world proportionately (Nickhere)

No, they don't. They are "area accurate" which is something different.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:20 AM

I know people who still won't buy a Japanese car because of WW2. Reminding them that the people who caused WW2 are long dead (Including FDR) does no good. They are locked into the hatred and nothing can shake them. Reason is futile.
I'm not responsible for what my ancestors did to the Indians, or the blacks. You Brits are not responsible for what your ancestors did to the "Sheet" Indians or the Boers.
We ARE responsible for what WE do, and what we allow our governments to do.

Point of fact, it was an American who invented the machine gun, Hiram Maxim.He also invented smokeless gun powder.

America is the only country that ever dropped an atom bomb on civilians. I had nothing to do with that, being 11 years old at the time.
This guy sounds like a hate monger to me.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:39 AM

Thanks for the link Dazbo, certainly puts things into perspective.

For a work to balance things up, those reading Mr. Grasse's book should try Niall Fergusons work on The British Empire and it effect on the modern world. That comes to the same conclusion that Max Hastings (+ a rather large number of world acclaimed historians) that on balance the British Empire overall was very much a force to the good of mankind.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: kendall
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:54 AM

Hiram Maxim was born in Sangersville Maine. I had nothing to do with that either.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 07:59 AM

Actually, Steve Grasse was on the Today programme on R4 this morning, and I thought he was hilarious.

Let's face it: Britain and America both have a hell of a lot to answer for. Both have a history of actions which many of us here would like to absolve ourselves from, in the "not in my name" mode of political engagement.

But recently, as an American living in the UK, the pious sanctimony of some of those I've spoken to has been a bit galling. American-bashing is a bit of a sport of choice in certain circles.

I don't take it particularly personally - well, most of the time, though when people are being particularly personal I tend to respond in kind (after all, if you don't know that I'm the most left-leaning, Anglicised American you're ever likey to meet, you don't know me very well).

That's why Steve Grasse cracked me up this morning - his unapologetic brashness was very funny indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:07 AM

I heard Steve Grasse this morning, as well. It cracked me up. but for different reasons. His main reason for writing the book, it seems to me, was because he was fed up of things written by some UK journalists who were critical of American forighn policy, At the end, he asked why didn't Britain say thank you to the Amricans for what they were doing in Iraq. Sounds to me like a spurned lover, either that or else he is having a hissy fit.

Incidentally, for those who in Britain, we can can watch Mel Gibson's The Patriot, which is probably Steve Grasse's favourite film.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Grab
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:18 AM

Thanks for the link, Dazbo. If Stephen Grasse's idiocy has made one contribution to the world, it's triggering that article.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: England's Evil Empire
From: Scrump
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 09:23 AM

The idiot should be burned at the stake, after serving time down t'pit and being interned in a slum concentration camp.