BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.

Subject: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 03:12 AM

Apparently, Allawi is threatening to change the method of administering the Iraqi state, freeze the constitution, and dissolve parliament. This is no less than attempt to overthrow Maliki and the democratically elected parliament. He is being backed by the U.S.

Of course!

Why is the western media silent about this?

So much for democracy. Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse, that slime ball Allawi is staging a coup.

http://uruknet.info/?p=m31101&s1=h1

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:41 PM

In case you don't know Allawi:

"A former Ba'athist, Allawi set up the Iraqi National Accord, which carried out bombings in Saddam Hussein's Iraq and is today an active political party. In the lead up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq the INA provided intelligence about alleged weapons of mass destruction to MI6."

He is also related to Chalabi.

So it looks as though Bush will put someone in power who will not only steer oil money towards the U.S. but will reap large, personal profits for themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:44 PM

"who will not only steer oil money towards the U.S."

You have never shown any indication that this ( the steering of oil money) has, is, or ever will occur. Just because YOU state it does not make it true ( or false). Please provide some hint of where you get this information from.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 02:49 PM

Why do you think Bush wants Allawi in power?

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Mar 07 - 03:02 PM

Dianavan:

According to your "news source" Saddam was lynched.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 01:34 PM

Dickey - The mainstream media was not reporting this so I used what was available in hopes of learning more about this issue. The article that I linked, did not mention lynching Saddam.

It looks like the mainstream media is catching up to this tidbit of info. I found this, today:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1597277,00.html

"In Washington, the Pentagon is looking to send even more American troops to Iraq, despite mounting bipartisan opposition.

Under the circumstances, the last thing Iraq needs now is political instability. Enter Iyad Allawi."

Bush is still trying to put a puppet in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 02:03 PM

Your "news source" says Saddam was lynched.

The Time article says nothing even remotely about "Bush is still trying to put a puppet in power."

What it said was "Both sides deride him as an American puppet, pointing to his CIA connections during the 1990s, when he was in exile."

Where does it say anything about American support for what he is trying to do?

This is as empty as your claim that "Maliki doesn't want more U.S. troops"

More headlines from your "news source"

Saddam's nephew among 140 set free in prison raid

Not escaped in an attack on a prison but "set free".

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:22 PM

Do your own research. Find a reputable source that discusses Alawi relationship to the U.S.

Refute this if you can, "In the lead up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq the INA provided intelligence about alleged weapons of mass destruction to MI6."

Who do you think formed the INA. It was Chalabi.

Now be a good boy and do your homework.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 12:53 AM

Do your own research and present something that says what you say it says.

I guess things that were done in 1995 and 1996 were the run up to the 2003 invasion so I can't refute that.

Where does the Time article say "Bush is still trying to put a puppet in power."

Am I supposed to find something to prove me wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 11:06 AM

"A member of Ayad Allawi's Iraqi List, Osama al-Najafi, told an Al-Hayat reporter that both Allawi and US ambassador Khalilzad are in Kurdistan for talks with leaders there. Allawi is trying to convince the leaders of the Kurdish coalition in the national parliament to join the "new front" he is forming, since the Kurds have a big weight in parliament and in the current government. And Najafi told the reporter that Khalilzad's presence there indicates the US supports the Allawi plan." - From the article linked above.

To find out more about Allawi and his relationship to the U.S., look him up in Wiki or just google his name.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:23 PM

Then the article says someone else said it.

And you say that the article says that somebody said it.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 03:05 AM

huh???

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 02:39 AM

Finally the mainstream media is picking up on the recent political moves of Allawi. This could spell the end to any hope of democracy in Iraq. In fact, it means that the U.S. has never cared about democracy. They simply want to replace Saddam with another puppet. A very dangerous puppet that will play two ends against the middle in his quest for power and wealth.

"An Allawi return would signal a return to more overt American custodianship of Iraq at a time when most Americans would prefer to get out. Iraqis would know and deeply resent that America was the only reason for Allawi's return. The UIA's removal from power would infuriate many Shia, while any Sunni relief would likely be quickly dispelled. And the need to keep him in power without any natural constituency would naturally prevent any thought of an American military withdrawal."

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/marc_lynch/2007/03/an_eye_on_allawi.html

Unfortunately, now that reconstruction has begun under Allawi, other countries (including Canada) are signalling that they may be able to help. Great! - Lure other countries into Iraq thinking that they are there to re-build the country and then start a war with Iran using Iraq as a base. I see nothing but trouble whenever Allawi is given any responsibility. Why is he suddenly credible? He has never been accountable to anyone but himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 08:51 AM

Sorry, Dianavan. Still see no proof that the US wants a puppet, or that Allawi would be that puppet. What Bush wants more than anything is to declare victory--this time with some semblance of credibility--and leave. He is aware that the more US soldiers killed, the worse his place in US history--unless he can somehow claim that all the sacrifice left behind something approaching a democracy--since his original excuse of WMD has proven totally worthless.

Most recent development, per the Wall St Journal today, is that since one of his top lieutenants has just been killed, al Sadr has "signalled an end to acquiescence in the US security 'surge' ". If he does decide that the "surge" should be resisted, that could easily spell the end to US involvement--if the US body count goes way up, due to resistance by Sadrists, the pressure on Bush to withdraw will be too much for him in his weakened state. Nobody in the US wants the US body count to go up, of course--but Bush has staked the "success" of his "presidency" on "success" in Iraq--which is of course a constantly changing chimera.

And as a Shiite leader, Maliki will not be able to countenance the slaughter of Shiites by US forces--especially since the Sadr Army has been the first bulwark against assaults by insurgents--and even, as a state within a state, provided medical care and education the Iraqi "state" did not.

As far as the internal US situation is concerned, no matter how many times Bush changes the definition of "success" in Iraq, the one thing the US public will not accept is a rising body count.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 01:00 PM

Ron -

There is no proof that Bush wants a puppet but as the article above confirms, I am not the only one who thinks that Bush will try to replace Maliki with Allawi. He needs Allawi to carry out his plans.

With the recent 'news' of confessions, made under torture, regarding terrorist targets, I would think that is all Bush needs to convince the public that he needs more troops for his war on terror. He'll put more troops in Iraq (including international troops for reconstruction and peace-keeping) which will provide a base of operation for his future attack on Iran.

Hillary will be elected and carry on in the name of security and prosperity for the U.S.A. She will be hailed as a champion for the rights of women in Iran, democracy in Iraq, and protector of Israel.

Its my opinion, of course, and there is no proof for future events but based on what I've seen so far, it is a possibility. I wish I could be optimistic and say that the U.S. will bring its troops home but I think that is very unlikely.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 02:06 PM

The US will bring its troops home. The only question is when. As I've indicated, if al-Sadr's people start resisting the push into Sadr City, it will be sooner rather than later--for the reason I've cited. A reason none of us hopes happens.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 04:24 PM

I have no doubt that there will be resistance in Sadr City. Whether or not al-Sadr's Mahdi Army will be involved, I couldn't say. At present, it seems Maliki is keeping al-Sadr in line. Allawi will not be as successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 05:05 PM

The question is whether the WSJ is correct in stating that al Sadr now thinks his people should no longer co-operate with the Americans. If this is so, the Americans will accomplish nothing more unless they are willing to do what the Sadrists did--provide health care, education-- and defense. US soldiers are not geared to provide health care and education--so the population will just wait til they leave--since home-grown militias can provide their own defense.

And if the Americans should seem aggressive, there will be big problems--and more US body bags. That's why Bush's policy is so stupid. Nobody is in favor of more US casualties--or Iraqi casualties----but without al Sadr's at least tacit co-operation, it's going to happen. Bush's "surge" is hostage to factors completely outside his control.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 05:28 PM

I totally agree.

Al Sadr has far more to offer the Iraqi people than the U.S. and it was my understanding that al Sadr has always opposed the presence of U.S. troops. What that means in terms of relations with their Arab neighbors is anybody's guess. I don't imagine Syria will be overjoyed. I see absolutely no positive role for the U.S. at this time. The choice to target al Sadr city instead of Sunni and/or al Quaeda insurgents was an incredibly stupid move.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 17 Mar 07 - 09:55 PM

Defeat is interrupted by reality

...Security in three more Iraqi provinces is being turned over to Iraqis, with another batch due in spring. Despite the surge and military predictions, American casualties are actually down from the wretched rate of late 2006. There's been no Shiite onslaught as American and Iraqi troops have moved into Sadr City. U.S. commanders think Shiite troublemaker in chief Muqtada al-Sadr is hiding in Iran. Iraqi troops have trouble learning police procedure, say U.S. trainers, but observers say the checkpoints are far tighter, more professional, than in previous cleanups. The crack-down, at least in Baghdad, seems to be functioning, and as more coalition forces arrive, they're heading for the nearby towns where car-bomb factories have fled...
...It is notable, however, that Lt. Gen. David Petraeus' new idea - take a neighborhood, then stay to guard it - differs critically from the previous whack-a-mole method. This may be making an impression in the province to which jihadists have fled, Diyala. Tribal leaders there are organizing to fight al-Qaida, reported an Iraqi newspaper last week, sick of the violence the insurgents have brought. If this is so, it mirrors a push-back in Anbar, long the insurgents' base.

That is, people with a lot riding on the outcome may be betting now on the good guys winning, especially as al-Qaida suffers its own rifts over strategy. It's our side that's advancing. The side blowing up shoppers in vegetable markets is being pushed, at least for now.

"For now" is turning into some serious history. Iraqis are still managing to govern themselves, under a constitution they wrote and leaders they elected. This defies those who say they're incapable of self-government. Their army and police are still drawing recruits, even in Anbar. They've managed to start purging their corrupt Interior Ministry. Iraqis are feeding more tips to their cops. Refugees are moving back. As one Iraqi journalist noted, you're even seeing liquor stores reopening in Baghdad, which wouldn't be the case if insurgents were still able to make that a fatal offense...

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 12:37 PM

"There's been no Shiite onslaught as American and Iraqi troops have moved into Sadr City"

This guy is an idiot! Of course there is no Shiite onslaught. Why would there be? It is the Sunnis and/or al Quaeda that are attacking American troops. The Shiites are mostly involved in reprisal killings. They target Sunnis. 'Invading' Sadr City is a waste of time. The Shiites are not the enemies of Iraq, they control the denocratically elected government.

If the U.S. truly want to help the Iraqis, they need to rid the country of insurgents. The insurgents are not Shiites. They don't have to be. They are the majority.

Dickey - You need to ask alot more questions when you read and you need to get your basic facts straight.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 12:45 PM

Dianavan: At least I don't rely on "news" sources that claim Saddam was lynched.


Notes From Baghdad

BY MOHAMMED FADHIL AND OMAR FADHIL
Wednesday, March 7, 2007 12:01 a.m. WSJ

BAGHDAD--The new strategy to secure Baghdad has been dubbed by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki as "Operation Imposing the Law." After weeks of waiting and anxiety it is finally under way, and early signs are encouraging.

The government information campaign and the news about thousands of additional troops coming had a positive impact even before the operation started. Commanders and lieutenants of various militant groups abandoned their positions in Baghdad and in some cases fled the country. Diyala province, to the east of Baghdad, was the destination for many Sunni extremists, while Shiite militiamen went to Babil and Diwaniya in the south. Some higher-ranking members of Shiite and Sunni militant groups fled to Iran and Syria respectively. This migration motivated the government to announce supporting security measures in five provinces around Baghdad, to make sure that fleeing bad guys do not regroup in other cities.

This indicates that both the addition of more troops and the tough words of Prime Minister Maliki are doing the job of intimidating the militants. The extremists understand only the language of power, and any reluctance or softness on the part of the Iraqi or U.S. government would only embolden them. In this way the clearly voiced commitment of President Bush and Prime Minister Maliki was exactly the type of strong message that needed to be sent.

One difference between this and earlier--failed--attempts to secure Baghdad is the willingness of the Iraqi and U.S. governments to commit enough resources for enough time to make it work. Another important point is the insistence of the Iraqi government that political factions not interfere with the progress of military action. The commanders and the prime minister have made it clear that no one will be above the law, and that even places of worship and the offices of politicians will be subject to searches and raids if evidence of involvement in violence is found.

The Iraqi commanders are also trying to give the operation a national stamp by including troops from across the country--even from Kurdistan and far provinces like Basra, where politicians and officers have been long opposed to being involved in Baghdad. Yet another aspect that makes "Imposing Law" unique is its ascending intensity. Unlike other operations that always started from a peak and soon lost momentum, this plan is becoming stricter and gaining momentum by the day as more troops pour into the city, allowing for a better implementation of the "clear and hold" strategy. People here always want the "hold" part to materialize, and feel safe when they go out and find the Army and police maintaining their posts--the bad guys can't intimidate as long as the troops are staying.

The Iraqi people themselves are playing their role in the plan. Recent figures from U.S. officers in Baghdad show that the joint forces have been receiving an average of 250 security tips from civilians since the beginning of the operation, about twice previous figures. With help from a government-appointed committee, people in some Baghdad neighborhoods are returning occupied mosques to their original keepers and worshippers, and holding joint prayers between the two sects in mixed neighborhoods.

So after only a couple weeks we can feel, despite the continuing violence, that much has been accomplished. Many Baghdadis feel hopeful again about the future, and the fear of civil war is slowly being replaced by optimism that peace might one day return to this city. This change in mood is something huge by itself.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Mar 07 - 01:05 PM

Dickey--

Things change daily. Your "news" was old before you even posted it. Nobody questions that more responsibility is being turned over to the Iraqis. It does not mean that anything has been accomplished--just that British--or American troops are no longer in charge in a given area. In fact, in the south of Iraq this has to happen--since the UK is winding down its involvement in Bush's tragic Iraq war.

The only time anybody will be able to claim any progress is in the future--at least a year from now--when the "surge" is long over. . Only if the sectarian violence is vastly down THEN, NOT NOW, employment is way up, and the national government is respected, and its writ (look it up)-- runs there, will you or anybody else be able to claim any progress.

And in fact General Petraeus realizes this, even if you don't.--that's why he says it will be at least summer before anybody will know if any success at all can be claimed--or not. That's why he is very guarded in any claims of progress--he knows any "progress" at this point is less than ephemeral (look it up--we'll educate you yet).

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 12:10 AM

So what up to date news does RD have to offer? He is so smug he does not need to offer anything.

All he has to say is it won't work, it is not working, it can't work, it is not working. Edvidently he does not want it to work.

Al Qaeda does not want it to work. Iran does not want it to work either.

Excuuuuse me for not having their negative attitude but I want it to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 01:33 AM

U.S. Army clinic treats Iraqis in Sadr City
        
Baghdad -- Ailing Iraqis waited behind concertina wire at an abandoned schoolhouse in the capital's Shiite stronghold of Sadr City, where U.S. Army medics had set up a surprise medical clinic.
        
A child whose legs were stiff with disease hobbled toward the medics. Another man held his head, where a gash swelled with infection, according to AP Television News footage.
The clinic was part of a military outreach under the month-old Baghdad security plan. Such clinics usually close within hours to avoid attacks.
In Sadr City, medical services historically were provided by Shiite militias. The military hopes providing treatment will turn support in U.S. favor.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070318/NATIONWORLD/703180389/1012/NATIONWORLD

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 01:58 PM

"In Sadr City, medical services historically were provided by Shiite militias. The military hopes providing treatment will turn support in U.S. favor."

Why on earth would you replace existing medical services when you could go to an area (like a Sunni stronghold) that has no medical services? The citizens of Sadr City are Sadrists regardless of who provides the medical care. This is PR for the American public.

Support for the U.S. will have to come from Sunnis who are attacking both U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians. Shia support will not end the insurgency. The Shiites already support the Iraqi government.

Winning the hearts and minds of Sadrists is an exercise in futility. They will support the Iraqi govt. but never the U.S. infidels. Haven't you learned anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 03:52 PM

From Forbes -

"Sadr City has been targeted by a large number of explosions that killed hundreds of people in the past months, including Nov. 23 bombings in which 215 people died. The Mahdi Army had been almost in full charge of security in the area, checking cars and suspicious people, and some have blamed the drop in their presence for car bombings that have continued despite the crackdown."

And now the people of Sadr City have to face the additional threat of random searches and detention by U.S. and Iraqi troops.

If you were a Sadrist, who would you want to protect you - The Mahdi Army who shares the same language and religion as you or the U.S. army who doesn't speak your language or share your religion?

Duh!

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 04:04 PM

Dianavan one day:

"the Americans will accomplish nothing more unless they are willing to do what the Sadrists did--provide health care"

Dianavan another day:

"Why on earth would you replace existing medical services when you could go to an area (like a Sunni stronghold) that has no medical services?"

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 08:02 PM

Dickey - if you can provide a date, time and thread name; I'd be glad to defend my remark in context. Yes, they do need to provide services (health care being one of them) but Sadr City is not the place to start. For one thing, they already had medical services. For another, they should be trying to win the hearts and minds of the Sunnis. Its Sunnis who are attacking the U.S. forces.

It makes a nice photo op, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 19 Mar 07 - 10:40 PM

Dang. I am sory Dianavan. It was Ron Davies that said that. I appologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 12:46 AM

Dickey - Apology accepted. Now answer the question, "If you were a Sadrist, who would you want to protect you - The Mahdi Army who shares the same language and religion as you or the U.S. army who doesn't speak your language or share your religion?"

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 20 Mar 07 - 11:24 PM

I thought the Mhadis were Sadrists.

If I were either I would support the Iraq government by giving them and the US forces any information I could to stop the people that are doing the killing and mayhem. Note that since the surge, tips off are way up, even from Sunnis in the bad areas.

It reminds me of the gangs, pimps and drug dealers taking over some parts of cities and communities. The police cannot fight it all by themselves, the people have to take part.

Unfortunately some people think it is the job of the government to do evrything and the citizens do not have to do anything but complain about the government.

Over in another thread I attributed a statement that the violence would end in two weeks after the US left Iraq to you but actually you said you did not think it would end in two weeks. I was thinking of what the Iraqi said in a story you referred to. He said it would be sorted out in a week or two. I also read something where a Sunni woman said it would be sorted out in two weeks.

The only way it could I can see it being sorted out in two weeks is if there is some kind of genocide like Rwanda where the Sunnis and al Qaeda exterminate the Shia or vice versa.

I find it strange that there are Sunni Kurds in the north who mostly seem to be satisfied with the status quo.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 01:17 AM

Al-Sadr's militia is called the Mahdi Army. Yes, they are Sadrists who speak the same language and share the same religious beliefs of those in Sadr City.

Why do you think that an army of occupation (the U.S.) can do a better job than the Mahdi in Sadr City?

The Kurds in the north have been relatively quiet because they have not been in the direct line of fire between the Sunnis and Shia. The Kurds were hoping to stay out of the civil war and eventually separate from Iraq. Now that the surge is underway in Baghdad, the insurgents have started targetting the Kurds.

The U.S. is running around trying to put out fires but there is nothing they can do to prevent the Shia majority from ruling Iraq. Saddam was able to do that but only because he was a tyrant. The U.S. has given the Shia the opportunity they have been waiting for. Not at all what Bush was hoping for but heh - you win some, you lose some.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 02:39 AM

Dianavan,

I believe that I have tried to bring your attention to this before. I will try once again:

In Iraq you have ARAB Sunni's
In Iraq you have ARAB Shia
In Iraq you have Sunni KURDS
In Iraq you have Shia KURDS

The ones that are causing the trouble are the Sunni ARABS. Both Sunni and Shia KURDS get along just fine together.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 12:46 PM

I know that. There is nothing I said yesterday that disputes that.   There seems to be little or no trouble between the Sunnis and Shia in the Kurdish north. Thats why I referred to them as the Kurds. It is the Arab Sunnis (with the help of al-Qaeda) and Arab Shia that are struggling for power in Central and Southern Iraq.

You do, however, need to educate Dickey.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 21 Mar 07 - 08:34 PM

The ones that are causing the trouble are the Sunni ARABS. That is what I have said all along.

They plus al Qaeda have started the insurgency and a battle between the Sunnis and Shia but Dianavan insists it is the fault of the US because they took out Saddam.

Saddam needed to be taken out. The Arab Sunnis which only make up 10% to 15% of the population are now making the trouble because their great benefactor is gone.

Meanwhile Dianavan has no solution but complain, blame it on the US and has no solutions of her own. Just a bunch of I toldjasos.

What happen if the US packs up and goes home Dianavan? Will it be like a fairy tale ending? And they all lived happily ever after?

Turn on you powers of prediction for US. You have already predicted that Maliki does not want the surge but he has accepted it, it is working so far and he is not complaining.

You have said the US backs Alawi's plan. Where is the backing, What plan?

According to surveys, a large majority if Iraqis want a democracy. The Arab Sunnis are the spoilers. If Democratization is not working perfectly with the presence of the US, how is it going to work any better without the US?

What happens the minute the US vacates?

Every little piece of good news, every positive indicator has to be made fun of and stomped into the ground by Dianavan. She is so afraid the plan might actually work.

Evidently she does not want it to work and is hoping it won't.

I have never heard of negativity doing any good for anything or anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 05:11 AM

Yes, it is the Sunni Arabs and now al Quaeda that are now terrorizing Iraq. If the U.S. would leave Iraq, the Mahdi Army would be able to end the insurgency.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 12:34 PM

"...it is the Sunni Arabs and now al Quaeda that are now terrorizing Iraq. If the U.S. would leave Iraq, the Mahdi Army would be able to end the insurgency." - Dianavan.

Ah dianavan, so you actually want a civil war in Iraq, why didn't you say so in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM

I don't want a civil war in Iraq. I want the present govt. to succeed. There best chance of succeeding is with the help of the Mahdi Army.

Iraqi govt. with the help of occupational forces = failure

Iraqi govt. with the help of Mahdi Army = success

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 02:54 PM

The Iranian backes, ugly, mean, asshole that is in charge of his Mahdi militia has one ambition, to prevail over the Sunnis. He wants a theocracy, not Democracy. He will not restore order. The government of Iraq needs the help of the US to get the Sunnis and Shia together.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 03:51 PM

That your opinion.

The majority of Iraqis may see it quite differently.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 08:50 PM

dianavan - 22 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM

"I don't want a civil war in Iraq. I want the present govt. to succeed. There best chance of succeeding is with the help of the Mahdi Army.

Iraqi govt. with the help of occupational forces = failure

Iraqi govt. with the help of Mahdi Army = success"

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!! - Hey dianavan run that one past your pal Ron Davies he'd be highly delighted.

I must admit that I am absolutely amazed at the opinions voiced by some of our transatlantic cousins - they couldn't give a fuck about who gets hurt, ot what the consequences of anything are - as long as they can blame it on GWB because Gore didn't win in 2000.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 10:36 AM

How the Mahdi Army will fix things in Iraq:

Rival Shiite parties clash in the south
Al-Sadr supporters storm political office

By Christian Berthelsen
Los Angeles Times
March 23. 2007 8:00AM

"Rare evidence of simmering tensions between Iraq's Shiite factions boiled into public view yesterday when followers of radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr stormed the office of a rival Shiite political party in southern Iraq, wounding nine people and prompting a citywide daytime curfew, according to police and hospital officials.

The assault seems to have been prompted by a dispute between al-Sadr followers and a member of the Fadhila political party within the Electricity Ministry that serves the area. The governor's house was also attacked.

It came just one day after three alleged al-Sadr followers in the southern city of Kut stopped the mayor's car and shot him to death with the help of six members of the local police force.

There is a struggle for control of the government in the area, which is run by affiliates of the largest Shiite bloc in parliament, although it is being challenged by supporters of al-Sadr.

The three al-Sadr followers involved in the assassination were killed, and the six police officers have been arrested, according to local police. Kut was also under a full curfew yesterday.
        
Meanwhile, the U.S. military announced it had captured several members of a group responsible for a brazen January attack on a troop station in Kerbala in which four soldiers were kidnapped and later killed, including a top aide to al-Sadr.

At the same time, the military said that, at the request of Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, it was releasing an al-Sadr aide it has held for more than two years. Officials also said U.S. forces also found and destroyed a car bomb factory in Baghdad and arrested an al-Qaida operative running it."

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:41 PM

"The violent Shia militia known as the Mahdi Army is breaking into splinter groups, with up to 3,000 gunmen financed directly by Iran and no longer loyal to the firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, according to Iraqi and American officials."

Do you believe this? Who provided the intel? How was it obtained?

Is it possible the U.S. is being tricked? Why not let the U.S. believe that some of the Mahdi Army is no longer loyal to al-Sadr?

How many Mahdi Army remain in Iraq? Will those being financed by Iran remain in Iraq or have they gone to Iran for training, only to return better equipped?

If the Mahdi army remaining in Iraq are loyal to al-Sadr and the Iraqi govt., whats wrong with that? It would mean that al-Sadr and Iran have a difference of opinion; or do they?

This 'news' leaves too many unanswered questions.

But heh, the Bushites think they have reason to rejoice. The Mahdi army is splintering, the Mahdi army is splintering. Hooray!

If this news is true, we now have four groups that want the U.S. out: Two groups of Shias, the Sunnis and al-Qaeda. This is a reason to rejoice? I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 01:57 PM

Dickey - Read this if you have the attention span -

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/03/26/070326fa_fact_packer

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 03:12 PM

Dianavsn:

No, I do not have the attention span to read thru what is laying dust covered in the closed gift shop in the Palestine hotel or that Othman's friend had a dream of or that they were going to live on Pasta.

If there is any information here, just condense it down to some pertinent facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:00 PM

Well, then, try answering some of the questions in my post of 1.41 PM.

In the meantime, ponder this passage from the article linked above -

"In a small Shia city in the south, no one knew that a twenty-six-year-old Shiite named Hussein was working for the Americans. "I lie and lie and lie," he said. He acted as a go-between, carrying information between the U.S. outpost, the local government, the Shia clergy, and the radical Sadrists."

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:28 PM

#1. I have not heard this before and I don't know weather to believe it or not until I hear it and see the source.
#2 I have no idea.
#3 I have no idea.
#4 I have no idea.
#5 I have no idea.
#6 I have no idea.
#7 I have no idea.
#8 I have no idea.
#9 I have no idea.
#10 You leave every question un answered.
#11 What are you rejoicing about?
#12 If is a long way from a fact.

Seems to me your motto should be See no good, hear no good, speak no good.

Do you believe this?

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1217-07.htm

"videos of some of the most pornographic violence any of us would be able to stomach. For 45 minutes, Saddam's security police whipped and beat half-naked Shiite prisoners in the courtyard of their "Mukhabarat" headquarters.

They are covered in blood, screaming and whimpering. They are kicked and their testicles crushed and pieces of wood forced between their teeth as they are pushed into sewers and clubbed on the face.

The videos show that there were spectators, uniformed Baathists, even a Mercedes parked in the background under the shade of a silver birch tree.

I showed a few seconds of these films at lectures in Ireland and the United States this summer and some members of the audience left, nauseated by the evidence of Saddam's perverted nature. Who, after all, were these videos made for? For Saddam? Or for the victims' families to watch, so that they may suffer again the torture of their loved ones?

It's easy, looking at these images of Saddam's sadism, to have expected Iraqis to be grateful to us this week. We have captured Saddam. We have destroyed the beast. The nightmare years are over. If only we could have got rid of this man 15 years ago -- 20 years ago -- how warm would be our welcome in Iraq today. But we didn't. And that is why his capture will not save U.S. soldiers. He lives on. Just as Hitler lives on today in the memories and fears of millions. It is in the nature of such terrible regimes to replicate themselves in the mind.

Last night, driving back from Saddam's home city of Tikrit, the highway was blocked by thousands of Sunni Muslims, screaming Saddam's name, brandishing his portrait, firing automatic rifles into the sky. "Saddam has just broadcast another tape," a young man shrieked at me. "He is still with us. The Americans captured his double!"

I could find no one who had actually heard this tape but I understood what it meant. Dictators remain in the mind, to poison again, to torture once more. Saddam has gone. Saddam lives. And we think the war is over...."

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:04 PM

Yes, I believe it and I believe that Saddam lives on in the minds of his followers. Thats why I want the democratic majority of Iraq (who happen to be Shiite) to govern Iraq. That also happens to be what the Iraqis voted for.

Unfortunately, this is not what the U.S., Britain and Israel want.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 08:40 PM

How you know that is beyond me. I haven't seen any evidence anywhere or presented by you that indicates it.

I presume you have a crystal ball.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:33 PM

OK Dianavan, but may I ask for some minority rights for Sunnis also? Sunni is not synonymous either with al Qaeda or with Baathist.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:28 PM

Ron - Here's how I see it, if the Shiite majority holds the power in government, it does not negate Sunni rights. Thats like saying because Christians dominate our government, we all have to be Christians. It does mean, however, that oil rights belong to Iraq as a whole, not to Sunnis or Shias or Kurds.

I know that this is overly optimistic, but I don't think that Iraq should be divided on the basis of religion or oil rights. Afterall, we all know that the money that is made from the oil or its transport will hardly trickle down to the general populace anyway.

Furthermore, I don't see that the U.S. has any reason to want the Shiite majority to rule and is doing everything in its power to de-stabilize the existing government for fear of a theocracy allied with Iran. What the U.S. is hoping for is a secular Sunni autocrat that will do business with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:36 AM

Alaskans are getting around $1850 cash from oil revenues and don't have to pay any state income tax. Where's mine? I live in America too.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: dianavan
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 04:14 AM

Dickey - There you go with another of your stupid comparisons. Last time I checked, the U.S. was not divided into States on the basis of religion. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember that States are United into one country. If you aren't getting any of Alaska's oil money, then you would be in the same position as Arab Sunnis if Iraq split into separate regions.

At present Iraq is one country, not separate states. Unless it separates into separate political regions, the revenue from oil should be shared by all Iraqis. If they do separate, the Arab Sunnis will get next to nothing because the oil is in territory occupied by Shiites and Kurds.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 03:15 PM

I thought Sunnis could live anywhere they want. If they want a share, they could move to where the oil is just like I could move to Alaska.

Or I could demand that the revenues for oil from somewhere else be given to me like the Sunnis.

If you say the Sunnis have to live in a certain area, you are diving the country on the basis of religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 08:33 PM

Dickey--do you ever use your head? When somebody has a home there is no reason they should have to leave it just to be eligible for income from the country's wealth.   Your "solution" would have a "gold rush" to the oil-producing areas of Iraq--and I wonder if, in your infinite wisdom, you've considered the reaction of those who already live there. I'll clue you--they won't be so enthusiastic about your wonderful plan.

Fortunately, you have limited power--to say the least-- in determining Iraqi arrangements.

The Iraq parliament has already decided that oil income--in principle---is to be shared among all Iraqis. Whether the actual regulations will reflect this has yet to be seen, however.

But anybody who wants peace in Iraq can at least be happy that your great idea has been rejected.

Subject: RE: BS: Allawi 's plan backed by U.S.
From: Dickey
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 10:08 PM

Ron:

I don't recall having any grand plan or solution and fortunately your personal insults do not make your false assertions reality.