BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:45 AM

first a '400', now a 100...what a night!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 01:39 AM

Remember all those jobs that illegals performed, because Americans didn't want them????...Maybe, if the Americans got them, there would be no reason for that rationalization any longer............I'll bet you 'those' Americans want them.....back... now! 5000 more from Microsoft, announced, just yesterday.........

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 10:38 PM

Joe - Yes, I've seen the figures. It's not a good thing that people suffer on either side of the border.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:38 PM

I think I'd agree with you there, Rig. The best way to stop our border problems with Mexico, is for the economy and government in Mexico to improve.
Incidentally, there have been far fewer illegal aliens coming to the U.S. since our economy went bad.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM

Joe - I hadn't thought that far into it. But the last election in Mexico was almost won by a man who might have been able to help the poorest Mexican people. It was close. With just a little more support, I think he could have won, and I think Mexico would be a better place today--especially for it's own people--if he had won.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:29 PM

You're right, Rig. That's why East Germany built a wall - to stop the drain of workers from its economy. So, you're implying that we are doing Mexico a great favor by building a wall to keep its workers in.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:25 PM

The standard of living in Canada is very similar to the US. There really isn't any reason for Canadians to sneak over the border to cut onions.
                The standard of living in Mexico presents a stark contrast to the US--though that may change as more economic realities surface. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the people who would be most able to bring about changes in Mexico are the very people who are leaving.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

I figured that's what you were up to, Art - but I think it didn't work. In the midst of a ocean of illogical statements, another one posted humorously just blends right in.

PDQ, your lack of logic astonishes me. Yes, I do favor an open border - I don't know that I ever said "wide open" (this post may be the one you're talking about). The US should have identical border controls on its borders with both Mexico and Canada - not a Berlin Wall separating us from Mexico.

Nonetheless, I worked with Border Patrol agents for 25 years, and I respect their training and professionalism. Certainly, there were a few bad eggs - it was my job to weed them out. But on the whole, the Border Patrol Agents were good people who did their best at a job that was often thankless and futile.

I also have a great deal of respect for U.S. prosecutors and courts. Most of the time, they get it right - especially when a case goes to a full trial. If the court convicted the two agents, then I tend to believe that the agents committed a crime. But you contend there's no need to know the exact details of the case, because you're absolutely sure they were lynched by the prosecution. If the CNN Story is true, then it does appear there may be good reason for commutation of the officers' sentences. You'll find links and more information in this Wikipedia article.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:39 PM

"Riginslinger, your proposal of a threshold test sounds like what they used to do to black people in the South when they wanted to register to vote. No, thanks. Besides, if they asked ME to make up the test, it would probably disqualify several participants in this discussion."


                Yes, I know. That's why I pasted on the disclaimer, and I avoided using the word "test." Still some of those exit interviews were downright frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:32 PM

Joe, I also said:

"By the way, just in case you hadn't figured it out, I really have no idea whether or not any votes have ever been cast by noncitizens. In fact, in 221 years of our democracy, I'd be amazed if there were not such votes cast. My statement was intended to be as farcical as the statement that millions of votes will be cast by illegal aliens in the next election (pdq at 11:08 am). If you can't prove something you present as a fact, and that statement about a future situation cannot be factual unless you have a time machine, than you should make it clear that you are actually expressing an opinion."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:28 PM

Perhaps you should engage in a little "truth in advertising" yourself, Joe Offer.

You said on another thread that you want a wide open border with Mexico. You want all the people who try to get into the US to be able to do so without being impeded.

That makes any praise or support of our Border Patrol coming from you seem a bit empty. In fact, I see no support for them from you at all.

I am happy that Romos and Compean were set free. They tried to do their job not knowing that half the politicians in this country don't want them to succede. That ain't right.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:12 PM

OK, pdq. It's clear that you base your argument on idle speculation and outright prejudice. I guess it's not worth discussing the matter with you any further.
Riginslinger, your proposal of a threshold test sounds like what they used to do to black people in the South when they wanted to register to vote. No, thanks. Besides, if they asked ME to make up the test, it would probably disqualify several participants in this discussion.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM

Frankly, I think there ought to be some basic threshold for voting, besides just being a legal citizen. I saw some exit interviews during the last election, and it was obvious there were people casting votes who had know idea what they were doing.

                I know that would be difficult, but...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

If you read the article on the Sanchez-Dornan race, local officials removed 124 votes because they were clearly corrupted.

During the Congressional investigation, another 624 votes were disqualified beacause they were cast by illegal aliens.

There were an additional 4000 ballots / voter registrations that were "suspicious" but the Conngressmen decided to stop there and certify the results.

Some people think the 4000+ "qustionable" ballots were as corrupt as the 748 (thats's 624 + 124) for a grand total of 4748+.

Take that figure and multiply it by 535 (the House and Senate seats combined) and you get over 2.5 million bad votes.

I stick by all my statements and you will (I assume) will stick by yours.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 04:59 PM

OK, PDQ, you're right. All law enforcement officers in the US are supposed to be polite. It makes sense - because an impolite officer can easily escalate a situation into something dangerous. The Border Patrol sends officers who are overly rough to "charm school."

But no, they do not politely ask people to go home - they apprehend them and ship them back.

---

Art Brooks stated, "No illegal residents voted in the last election."

I gotta say that sounds completely unbelievable, and I wonder why Art said it. Maybe he was trying to be funny, and it didn't work. I'm sure some illegals must have voted. But then, to use data from a 1996 election to support a claim of "millions of illegal voters" in the most recent election, is also quite ludicrous.

---

I guess what I'd conclude from this thread is that it is really difficult to carry on a rational discussion on the Internet, because so much hot air gets wasted refuting statements that are truly idiotic.

We could list lots of fallacious and misleading statements in just this one thread.

Let's start with the thread title, Bush Pardons Border Patrol Agents (he commuted their sentences, but did not pardon them)

"They will not vote in the next federal election while millions of illegal aliens will" is another real zinger. We have proof of 624 illegal alien votes in one congressional district in 1996.

On the other side, we have "No illegal residents voted in the last election." Aw, c'mon. There MUST have been at least a few, even though there is no proof that illegal aliens are a significant aspect of voter fraud in most districts. I'd guess that party loyalists are a far more significant source of voter fraud, especially in places like Chicago and Florida.

And then The agents are supposed to find people crossing the border and ask them politely to go back. Yeah, sure. Just like the Highway Patrol officer politely asks drivers to stop driving 90 miles and hour, and sends them merrily on their way with a friendly wave.

To top it off, we have, We don't need the exact details of this case to know that the agents were undertrained and were working under an intentionally vague game plan. Repeat what I said before: this was prosecutorial lynching. Before they go on duty, Border Patrol Agents go through several months of training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. And yes, we do need the exact details of the case to discuss it intelligently. I know it's so boring to have discussions based on facts, but that's how intelligent people are supposed to conduct a discussion.

Wouldn't it be nice if Mudcat could be different, if we could be a place where people have rational discussions based on actual facts? I guess that's why I usually stay out of the BS threads - too damn much bullshit.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: pdq
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

As far as "polite" to illegal aliens, I stick by that statement. Border Patrol agents are required to speak a dialect that Mexicans recognize and they are trained to be polite.

If, on the other hand, a suspect starts to show resistance, the agent is trained to raise the level in degrees until the suspect realizes he should coopertate. Violent confrontations rarely occur.

As far as the number of illegal aliens from Mexico voting, the Sanchez-Dornan Congressional race proves that at least 624 did vote in that one district that one night. That fact thoroughly impeaches artbrooks' clain that illegals never vote.

How many illegal aliens from Mexico voted in the last Federal election, 4 NOV 2008? The number is between "a few" and "3.9 million". If anyone has solid facts or good data, please supply. Some of us are interested in the Truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 09:00 AM

From pdq, 21 Jan 09, 11:08 AM:

The first mention of "millions".

"Border Patrol agents were not pardoned. They still stand convicted of federal felonies and will forever suffer both the indignaties and disabilities that come with being a felon in this country..."

Quite correct. They will not vote in the next federal election while millions of illegal aliens will.

Art Brooks
A native born American worker

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 08:11 AM

"'If you assume even non-Hispanic districts have so many illegal voters, multiply that 624 by 435 congressional districts, and you still get a far cry from "millions."'


                      One more time - It was the blind bigots who hate native born American workers who were using the term "millions," and not those of us on the side of truth and justice.

                      Most elections are decided by a few percentage points so any votes from illegal aliens can pervert most elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 07:55 AM

If you want a proper insight into the attitude of the us border patrol you should read 'unrepentant sinner' by colonel charles askins    then make an informed judgement

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 09 - 03:19 AM

pdq says:

The agents are supposed to find people crossing the border and ask them politely to go back.

Darn, pdq, I did investigations at Border Patrol offices for 25 years, until 1999. They sure didn't do things that way back in my day. I saw Border Patrol Agents crowding aliens into holding cells and feeding them baloney sandwiches until the bus came to take them back across the border. I'm certainly glad the Bush Administration has taught those Border Patrol agents to be polite....

In general, the agents were quite professional. I had questions about some of the detention officers, but the agents were ok. But no, they didn't politely ask illegals to go home - they caught them and shipped them back.

The baloney sandwiches weren't bad - they used to let me have leftovers. Tasted much better than the baloney about the millions of illegal aliens voting. Riginslinger's Loretta Sanchez Wikipedia article did state that "A Congressional investigation found evidence that 624 votes were indeed cast by non-citizens" in a 1996 election in a heavily Hispanic district. If you assume even non-Hispanic districts have so many illegal voters, multiply that 624 by 435 congressional districts, and you still get a far cry from "millions."

Try using facts when you argue, guys.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:31 PM

"Art Brooks is correct again... regarding concern for the common man."


                As long as the common man we're talking about isn't a native born American worker.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:56 PM

Perhaps a slight exaggeration, Donuel.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: fumblefingers
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM

The reason so many people are registered to vote, sometimes several times, is so when the vote counters "find" votes in the trunks of their cars and in warehouses, the totals won't exceed the number of registered voters, as has happened many times. This is election theft 101 and has been practiced for decades in certain areas.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:25 PM

Art Brooks is correct again not only regardng the commutation but as well as every other issue regarding concern for the common man.


pdq - try a litle tenderness

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:05 PM

Yes, pdq, that's exactly what it was. And the poster who observed that these two men will not be able to hold government jobs again are probably right. They will have to apply in the private sector. They just might want to apply at Blackwater.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: pdq
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM

There are several people on this thread who are determined hold their breath until the Truth goes away.

About the border agents, our geniuses in Congress pass the laws and make the rules. Most don't really want the illegals prevented from entering the country so they make the agent's job impossible to perform. Win-win for our certain members of Congress, Hell for the agents.

The agents are supposed to find people crossing the border and ask them politely to go back.

What Ramos and Compean found were advance agents of a Mexican drug cartel, a van with 734 pounds of drugs and armed suspects, one of which was ready to fire on them.

We don't need the exact details of this case to know that the agents were undertrained and were working under an intentionally vague game plan. Repeat what I said before: this was prosecutorial lynching.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 10:56 AM

Dave O - It was the blind bigots who insist that documentation needs to be found for millions and millions of undocumented immigrants voting. The people on the side of truth and justice have pointed out several times that sometimes it only takes a handfull of illegal aliens to pervert an election.

                   The documentation has been researched and posted. Your argument is not with the other posters; you argument is with the facts!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:44 AM

PDQ, thank you for posting some documentation for your assertion about "million" or "millions" of illegal immigrants voting. That's what I was asking you to do.

However, the statement "In 2005, the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that up to 3 percent of the 30,000 individuals called for jury duty from voter registration rolls over a two-year period in just one U.S. district court were not U.S. citizens" is potentially misleading, or at least not conclusive.

Note that "in just one U.S. District court" can cut both ways. As evidently intended in your use of the quote, one might assume that that percentage applies across the board across the country, and thus justify the "millions" figure. But which U.S. District Court? The jurisdiction with the highest number of illegal immigrants? The jurisdiction with the greatest proportion of illegal immigrants to total population? Or (and I'm doubtful that this is the case) the District which is most representative in those respects?

Next, voter registration figures, as someone has pointed out, do not equal, even in theory, votes actually cast. An individual may have registered for other purposes than actually voting in the first place; and then some undeterminable proportion of even those who intended to fraudulently vote may have backed out for reasons of right/ethics/legality, or may have forgotten to vote, may not have been able to get off work, or chickened out for fear of criminal sanctions and/or deportation.

But, while I question the impact of the quote, at least now I understand where you are coming from, and thanks.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Wesley S
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM

So far they haven't proved anything other than { according to their opinions } there was a potential that a few hundred - not millions - had the paperwork that would have enabled them to vote. Not that they actually voted - but they could have. Of course - no links to actual webites were provided. But since PDQ and Rig are regular citizens we are obligated to believe them.

Keep in mind that we have no solid proof that either one of them is in the country legally either.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 09:04 AM

artbrooks - Check the entry from Wikipedia on Loretta Sanchez 1/21/09 - 9:22. It talks about the Congressional investigation of the Congressional race in California. It was discussed on the floor of the House of Representatives and in Committee.

                         IT'S WELL DOCUMENTED:


             If you want more detail, I'm sure you can find it in the appropriate issue of the Congressional Quarterly. If you look there, I'm certain you won't miss it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 08:40 AM

When did you prove they did it? I missed that.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 07:32 AM

"Why would they want to vote in elections and risk being discovered?"

             We'll we've proven they do it. They did it in the Lorreta Sanchez case. And they do it, if you will go to the Nation of Atlan Site and see for yourself, because they think they are the rightful heirs of parts of the US, among other things. Look how much Lorreta Sanchez has done for them.



    "'If 200 to 300 illegal aliens voted for Ron Coleman they cost Al Franken in Minnesota his senate seat, illegally." Right, Rigs?'"

             Actually, it's Norm Coleman, and no, when illegal aliens vote, it's been proven they almost always vote Democratic.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:42 AM

Well, it's relatively easy to register to vote, and you get a voter registration card when you register - and voter registration cards are often accepted as a form of identification. I would guess that many illegal aliens may register to vote so they can get identification - not so they can vote. So, the question still remains - do a significant number of illegal aliens cast votes in U.S. elections? Why would they want to vote in elections and risk being discovered?

The question certainly has not been answered to my satisfaction.

As for the Border Patrol Agents, I can see both sides of the argument. Border Patrol Agents have a difficult, thankless job. Like all law enforcement officers, they have to make split-second decisions when they are dealing with fleeing aliens. Were there mitigating circumstances in this situation, circumstances that warrented the commutation of the sentences of these officers? I don't know, and I can't tell from the information I've seen. I'd like to think that Bush commuted the sentences because there were mitigating circumstances.

Whgatever the case, it's highly unlikely that these convicted felons will ever be employed by the U.S. Government again, and certainly not in a law enforcement position.

Two questions, two situations where nobody here knows the answer.

-Joe Offer, retired federal investigator-

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 02:02 AM

14,000,000 ILLEGAL 'immigrants'...what else do you need to know? Sounds more like an invasion to me, while the 'keepers of the gate' (in Washington) are asleep at the wheel!...Oh yeah, remember that 'oath' of office, that they swore to, to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America??...oh, except that part about the borders...(among a few others)....oh wait, I forgot, there is 'exceptions' to that, if you're a so called 'liberal' representative'(???)!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:26 AM

Very true, Q. Nothing really relevant to the thread title has been said today.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jan 09 - 12:15 AM

Oh, fer heavens sakes! The nonsense goes on and on.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:21 PM

"If 200 to 300 illegal aliens voted for Ron Coleman they cost Al Franken in Minnesota his senate seat, illegally." Right, Rigs?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:07 PM

Primary source, please. A statement in an Wapedia article or blog, without attribution, has no historiographical validity.

By the way, just in case you hadn't figured it out, I really have no idea whether or not any votes have ever been cast by noncitizens. In fact, in 221 years of our democracy, I'd be amazed if there were not such votes cast. My statement was intended to be as farcical as the statement that millions of votes will be cast by illegal aliens in the next election (pdq at 11:08 am). If you can't prove something you present as a fact, and that statement about a future situation cannot be factual unless you have a time machine, than you should make it clear that you are actually expressing an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 11:01 PM

It happens all the time. And the blind bigots who keep insisting that it takes "millions" of illegal voters are missing the point.

             If 200 to 300 illegal aliens voted for Al Franken in Minnesota, they cost Ron Coleman his senate seat, illegally.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 10:29 PM

"In 1994, Mario Aburto Martinez, a Mexican national and the assassin of Mexican presidential candidate Luis Donaldo Colosio, was found to have registered twice to vote in California. A random sample of just 10 percent of the 3,000 Hispanics registered to vote in California's 39th Assembly District by an independent group "revealed phony addresses and large numbers of registrants who admitted they were not U.S. citizens."

This problem may be partially explained by the testimony of a Hispanic member of the Los Angeles Police Department who had been a volunteer for the California-based Southwest Voter Registration Education Project. When she reported to her supervisor that her fellow volunteers were not asking potential voters whether they were citizens, she was reprimanded "and told that she was not to ask that question…only whether the person wished to register to vote."

Similarly, the Dornan–Sanchez investigation produced an affidavit from a non-citizen stating that the Sanchez campaign's field director, an elected member of the Anaheim Board of Education, told him that it "didn't matter" that he was not a U.S. citizen—he should register and vote anyway."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:31 PM

Good work, Rigs...

With the fact that "A Congressional investigation found evidence that 624 votes were indeed cast by non-citizens." you have already proven that the artbrooks claim that "No illegal residents voted in the last election." is to be considered laughable indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:24 PM

NO - it may be informative to read wht I wrote, which was that the statement you quoted "only appears on ultra-right blog-sites". I reached that opinion by putting the statement, quotation marks and all, into Google. The result was three hits on blogs and one hit on an ultra-conservative Arizona newspaper's op-ed page. I would willingly admit my error - if provided the appropriate links to official sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:22 PM

It takes a while to get these figures together, and it's not easy, but there's this from the Loretta Sanchez race in 1996.

In 1994 Sanchez ran unsuccessfully as a moderate Republican for the Anaheim City Council under her then married name, Loretta Brixey. In 1996, she changed parties and recast herself as a moderate Democrat to run in the 46th District against controversial six-term Republican incumbent Bob Dornan.

The bitterly fought race saw Sanchez charge that Dornan was out of touch with his constituency, especially after a distracting run for the 1996 Republican Presidential nomination. The 46th had always had a Democratic tilt, but became even more Democratic after the 1990 census when it received a considerably larger number of Hispanics than had previously been in the district. Sanchez won by 984 votes, and Dornan contested the election, alleging that many votes were cast by people who were not American citizens.

A Congressional investigation found evidence that 624 votes were indeed cast by non-citizens. An additional 124 votes had already been thrown out by California officials. These votes were not enough to throw Sanchez's victory into doubt, so the investigation was halted and the outcome was upheld... making Sanchez the first American of Mexican heritage to represent Orange County in Congress. Dornan continues to assert that illegal voter registration of non-citizens was decisive in Sanchez's victory. In consultation with the INS, the House committee identified as many as 4,700 questionable registration affidavits;[4] however, the probe was dropped before these affidavits were investigated.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 09:16 PM

Repeat for those who close their minds and ears when a fact appears that they don't like:

"In 2005, the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that up to 3 percent of the 30,000 individuals called for jury duty from voter registration rolls over a two-year period in just one U.S. district court were not U.S. citizens.

...the Cenusus Bureau estimates that there are over a million illegal aliens in Florida, and the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has prosecuted more non-citizen voting cases in Florida than in any other state."

According to artbrooks, the U.S. Government Accountability Office, the U.S. Cenusus Bureau and the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) are all just the product of a "ultra-right blog-sites".

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:59 PM

How big a difference is a really big difference?
# voters?
# illegal?
Let's see some figures.

Gee, would we have that other guy as president if only the right people had voted?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:56 PM

Prove that any illegal residents voted. The allegation, if true, that there were ineligible people on the registration roles does not prove that they voted. If you are unwilling or unable to prove that "millions of illegal aliens" voted last time or will vote next time, why should I or anyone else accept a statement that only appears on ultra-right blog-sites (such as, where I found it, on the site of European Americans United) as proof of anything?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 08:23 PM

It makes a really big difference in places like New Mexico, Arizona, and California. Especially in some Congressional Districts.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:52 PM

For residents of Maine, official goverment census figures put the illegal alien population of your state at 1000. 3% voting would be 30 people.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: pdq
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:46 PM

"In 2005, the U.S. Government Accountability Office found that up to 3 percent of the 30,000 individuals called for jury duty from voter registration rolls over a two-year period in just one U.S. district court were not U.S. citizens. While that may not seem like many, just 3 percent of registered voters would have been more than enough to provide the winning presidenútial vote margin in Florida in 2000. Indeed, the Cenúsus Bureau estimates that there are over a million illegal aliens in Florida, and the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) has prosecuted more non-citizen voting cases in Florida than in any other state."

total of votes cast in 2008: 132 million

3% illegal alien would mean 3.96 million illegal aliens voted, the huge majority voted for Obama

Subject: RE: BS: Bush pardons Border Patrol agents
From: kendall
Date: 21 Jan 09 - 07:38 PM

Old Maine proverb "No amount of belief can create a fact."