Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: philgarringer
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:49 PM

Dianavan, my wonderful fellow American,

Who cares what you call us, just don't call us late for dinner.

http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/Generosity.pdf

As for "not sharing", please notice that the list that I am linking to here has BC (I am assuming you are an "American" from British Columbia, and not an "American" from Baja California. Maybe you should watch which initials you use. I think my friends in Baja California might not like that. Maybe it's that American ethno-centrism at work. Please watch that in the future)

Anyway, BC ranked 46 overall. At least you tied New Hampshire! (not to be confused with "Old" Hampshire. We do apologize for stealing all of those English place names. It's the "not sharing" thing.) My home state of New York (again, apologies to England!) was only number 7.

Also, in an effort to combat our ethno-centrism to the exclusion of all others, we shall now refer to ALL people on the planet as "Americans". How's that for inclusiveness?

Come to think of it, the Area Formerly and Incorrectly Exclusively Referred to as "America" due to Ethno- Centrism has citizens from every nation on Earth (I'm sorry. I meant to say Planet America)!

I also apologize to my fellow anthropomorphs.   We shall also refer to all living creatures as "Americans".

Except manatees. They remain stateless. Sorry. The United nations (oops, United Americas) is working on this problem.

I sincerely apologize to all of my "American" friends for our past ethno-centrism.

In the interest of appeasing our neighbors to the North, we here in our little part of America shall forever be known as Residents and Subjects of the Area Formerly and Incorrectly Exclusively Referred to as "America" due to Ethno-Centrism. I hope this heals the rift between your America (the Canadian part) and my homeland, the Area Formerly and Incorrectly Exclusively Referred to as "America" due to Ethno-Centrism. .

That, and we will try to share just as much as you folks from Baja California, Canada, America, not part of the Area Formerly and Incorrectly Exclusively Referred to as "America" due to Ethno- Centrism.

Pax tecum, my you American!

Phil Garringer
Resident and Subject of the Area Formerly and Incorrectly Exclusively Referred to as "America" due to Ethno-Centrism.

PST
The Area Formerly and Incorrectly Exclusively Referred to as "America" due to Ethno- Centrism commit suicide in an attempt to mollify some of the poor Canadian Americans that we have oppressed over the years, but the United Americas considers that genocide of some sort, and we all know how serious you Americans are about stopping genocide! So, again, my apologies.

Sorry, Dianavan. We discussed having everyone here in

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:23 PM

...and we often call the US, Oosa (USA).

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 05:22 PM

We in our household (one from the US and one from Canada) say "USAn" (pronounced, oosan). Works for us.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 04:20 PM

Canada and Mexico are part of North America,too. American is a term for those who live in any of the Americas. Those from the U.S. who call themselves Americans are, indeed, ethno-centric to the exclusion of all others. It's this arrogance that sets them apart.

In B.C., the U.S. is referred to as the States ie: they are from the States. Yes, it is necessary to call them Americans at times because they have no other names for themselves. Here's calling on all Americans to find a new name for yourselves and quit assuming that you are the only people that matter in the Americas. Somehow the "Uniters" doesn't quite fit. How about 'Staters'
or 'Statelings'? Its your name, you decide, but hands off a handle that we should all share. (Oh, I forgot, the U.S. doesn't understand sharing).

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 07:51 AM

I'm talking about the Country America or should that be the USA

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 03:33 AM

well maybe if you stop being a bully and try and help these countries like Israel then maybe they would like America

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 04:48 PM

manatees need to be become maneaters

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:51 PM

LOL

Phil, great idea. Now, to a serious question. Regarding the manatees in Florida. They are continuing to be killed at an alarming rate by boat props. What other problems are besetting these creatures? What can be done? Would you consider starting a serious thread on this?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: philgarringer
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:45 PM

That's what I'm talking about! People, getting together, to make a difference! Even Iraqis and Koreans can agree on this.

I am truly overwhelmed...

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 03:20 PM

Man, we can DO this.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:50 PM

Now you're talkin'. I'll do it! By God, if we get Shatner to back this thing we're gonna see some real action! You remember what he did for Tribbles...we could end up with the Manatee gracing the Canadian 5 dollar coin when it comes out, which could be any time soon, eh? We could end up with a Manatee in every swimming pool!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:41 PM

OK. How's about you just CO-sign the letter. We get Shane and Chongo's signature.(What the hell, we'll forge Shatner's signature.) That could only help, right?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:29 PM

Good man. I really should get off my ass and do something about it too, but I am already deeply committed to the Mount Kilimanjaro relocation project.

One can only do so much.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:17 PM

LH, he's not alone. I have just finished composing a letter to the DND requesting their help to have the remaining breeding pairs airlifted to the St Regis River near Parishville, New York. When they answer, I'll post the response.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 02:11 PM

We do it because Americans themselves constantly refer to the USA as "America" (as if it was the whole of the continent(s))... ;-)

By God, Phil, I am glad that someone is finally standing up for those poor, oppressed St. Lawrence Manatees! Way to go, man.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 01:56 PM

Aren't "North, South and Central America" referred to collectively as "the Americas" rather than as "America"?

More and more Canadians these days do in fact refer to the US as "America". I don't know why, but I seem to be hearing it a lot lately.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,Uncle Boko
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 01:20 PM

First of all, America is North, South and Central America. I don't think South and Central America, and Canada would like to be put in the same pot as the USA. Frankly, right now I doubt if 10% of the world likes the USA!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:57 PM

Phil, since you have been working on that project regarding the manatees (and yes, they are beautiful, gentle creatures, where could I best direct letters in terms of helping to get Ottawa off its arse?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: heric
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 12:52 PM

A noble cause and an outrageous situation. Phil, you may feel lonely facing the bureaucratic ineptitude and inertia, but your colleauge Robin is also a brave man indeed.

I would wholly support having a significant percentage of Mudcat profits being dedicated to Phil's endeavours.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 10:29 AM

Why do Iraq, Korea and other countries, hate America? (that's for you, heric).

It could be because they can't be trusted. Might be that America disregards the rules (even when they make they rules).

Probably for the same reason people hate crooked cops.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: philgarringer
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 08:27 AM

I actually AM a member, but I keep forgetting to to log in when I post!

I am the voice for ALL of the St. Lawrence Manatees, North and South of the border! So far, I am the only voice they have. The struggle continues.

Joe Offer, thanks for the link to Phillip the Manatee. I hadn't seen that. It just so happens that I have been trying to write a folk song about the manatees, and I just might lift some of those kids material!

"Manatee, O' Manatee
my little river cow, How I love thee..."

As far as Canada, I love the place. I spent Canada Day in bath, Ontario, and had a great time. We were made to feel quite welcome, and the beer was GREAT!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 01:18 AM

True enough, "meself". Such emotions and prejudices can always be found in less powerful countries which live next to more powerful neighbors. That's an old story. Don't the Mexicans resent the USA? Moreso than Canadians, I think. Don't the Dutch resent the Germans (and I don't mean just since WWII)? It's a very common thing.

It is usually matched by different sorts of crass prejudice on the part of those in the larger powers toward their smaller neighbors. It goes both ways, but it evidences itself in a different fashion.

The less powerful develop a sense of envy and victimization, while they imagine themselves to be morally superior. The more powerful develop a sense of arrogance and paternalism, and a sense that they can and should be the arbitors of the affairs of the less powerful...and they also imagine themselves to be morally superior.

Each claims the high ground.

Double irony.

It's probably about equally distasteful in either case, and we may all be guilty of it from time to time.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:37 PM

There is a streak of crass and petty anti-Americanism among Canadians, undoubtedly. Certainly not among ALL Canadians, but it is there. As a Canadian, I find it embarrassing, and at times shameful.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: pdq
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:23 PM

Phil Garringer,

Please join Mudcat. Membership costs nothing.

You seem to have a lot to contribute.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:09 PM

Well, Phil, most people have trouble seeing things clearly, because they think in symbols. Nations become symbolic in their minds. Races become symbolic in their minds. They forget that all individuals are unique and cannot be defined by those symbols. The hostile mobs you speak of were attacking someone who served as a momentarily available symbol of something else entirely, a symbol they were carrying in their minds of something that they were angry about. The same ridiculous thing happens when people hurl abuse at the members of a visiting football team, for heaven's sake, and that's equally absurd. American citizens destroyed Japanese trees in USA botanical gardens after Pearl Harbor. Stark insanity, but they were caught up in mental symbols. This is a problem everywhere. It causes non-Americans to misjudge Americans. It causes Americans to misjudge non-Americans. It causes blacks and whites in America to misjudge each other.

The only solutions I know are spiritual ones. Forgiveness, compassion, mercy, non-judgement of others. Political solutions will not be found, because politics deals with the use of raw power, not with compassion or understanding.

You said, "Your country (Canada) is run by multinational corporations, just as much as mine is. In Canada, they give you the illusion that you are being taken care of and that your hands are clean, but that's about the only difference."

Yeah. It's a real drag, isn't it? Matter of fact, the same multinationals that rule in the USA rule my country too, and I know it. I am well aware of the illusions that you refer to. I do not think our hands are clean.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 11:00 PM

I think the Manatee crusade deserves a clicky. Bless you, Phil, for this wonderful service....

Also see: Phillip the Manatee. A sample:

A Manatee
by Travis
A manatee is playful.
A manatee is fun, but our
Manatee is Philip and
He's an endangered species.

Are those Canadian or American manatees you're trying to protect, Phil?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,Phil Garringer
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 10:45 PM

Bonum est confidere in Dominum, quam confidere in homine.
Bonum est sperare in Domino quam sperare in principibus.
(117:8/DRV)

It is good to confide in the Lord, rather than to have confidence in man.
It is good to trust in the Lord, rather than to trust in princes.

Little Hawk, I am SURE you and would disagree politically on son many issues, but I think you and I can agree on this quote.

ALL governments suck. Yours sucks. Mine sucks. Your country is run by multinational corporations, just as much as mine is. In Canada, they give you the illusion that you are being taken care of and that your hands are clean, but that's about the only difference.

I do disagree on one thing, though. There are those who do hate my people and culture (not just my government), in Canada and the Western European nations that have been in the past "allies".

The phrase "oh, we don't hate the Americans as PEOPLE, just their government" is the same as when someone says "don't get me wrong, some of my best friends are (fill in ethnic group here)!"

I have seen it, and experienced it in my travels to both England, France, and Canada. When children's hockey teams have their bus attacked by a mob of screaming Canadians, don't tell me that the mob is attacking an international corporation!

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31846

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48221

I guess the Canadians just hate our teenage multi billion dollar corporate hockey team CIA thugs, not us as a people.

And our good amigos del sur...they must just hate our evil corporations, wait, our evil corporations WANT to grant amnesty to the illegal aliens... Maybe it's our support of the jews, then. Who can keep up with this kind of thing? Not me, as an untravelled, uneducated, insular American.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,275993,00.html

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/3/28/91333.shtml

And the Palestinians (of course, they just hate our evil corporations, which are run by the jews, who had advanced notice of 9/11, and so none were hurt in the attack...)

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34187,00.html

Maybe this all started as legitimate concern over the direction that American is taking in foreign policy. Or maybe, just maybe it's actually a real and deep seated (however irrational) hatred of the USA and of her people.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,Philgarringer
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 10:05 PM

Yes, I am the lonely defender of the St. Lawrence manatees. Thanks for the support!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:04 PM

Empires are run a bit differently now. Official colonialism is dead, not being politically acceptable anymore. But economic colonialism is alive and flourishing. Present day empires are run by banks, corporations, marketing men, and media conglomerates. Money moves freely around the world electronically, and most of it is in the control of a small number of huge commercial and banking entities. Backing up that money and marketing machine are the largest military forces in the world, nuclear weaponry, biological weaponry, space weaponry, the CIA, professional hit men and torturers, paramilitary death squads, bought judges, bought politicians, and bought governments in Third World countries.

If you happen to get in the way, you get run over like an ant.

The best you can hope for is that you don't happen to get in the way.

If you lack conscience...or just lack full awareness of what you're actually doing...you can get a job working for the empire as a cog in its machine. If so, you will probably be more or less allright as long as your health holds up...and you don't get in the way.

But it all depends on how you look at it. Every empire has its enthusiastic followers and loyal soldiers. Britain did. Rome did. Germany and Japan did. America does. China does.

Just don't get in the way.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Dickey
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 10:54 AM

I never heard of the Manatee tribe before.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 01:05 AM

Well, if the US doesn't have an empire, who will call the World Series games? Huh? Huh?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 12:51 AM

The US is, has or wants an empire? That would be news to most of us, including the idiots in Washington.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:46 PM

Speaking as a Canadian...we don't hate you, philgarringer. We don't hate ordinary Americans at all. We fear your irresponsible government leaders, your secret service agencies, your military leaders, and your giant corporations. We fear that they may commit irrational imperial acts which will in the end destroy our way of life and our freedoms...as well as yours. We fear that they will drag the world into another great war.

We are not evil men. Not in the least. We are ordinary men, just like you. Our hopes and dreams are much like yours. We are patriots, just as you are.

Your comparison to the British empire's unpopularity at its height is rather apt, as is the poem, but I think the British usually ran their empire a bit more wisely and sanely than yours is being run at present. They were self-serving despots, true, but they were still a good deal more rational and legally consistent than most despots are. They were a lot like the Romans...ruthless, but at least dependably consistent in their ways.

I would not have blamed people for hating the long arm of British Imperial power in those days, nor would I have called those people "evil men" for so doing.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 10:58 PM

Are you he who is trying to save the St Lawrence River manatees? If so, my sincere thanks to you.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,philgarringer
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 10:52 PM

I suspect that we are hated now for many of the same reasons that the British were hated for so long.

White Man's Burden

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

I would suppose that those Iraqis that hate us (I am not referring to the jihadis or the Baathists) hate us because they see us as the cause of their all of their problems. There is also the undeniable influence of their religion and racial pride.

The Koreans? Most of the Koreans that I have met do not hate the US, unless you are speaking about the North Koreans. Who knows about them? It's kind of hard to take an opinion poll up there, what with the Glorious Leader's thugs with AK's everywhere. I would imagine, though, that any North Korean who would say he hated the US would risk life and limb if he thought he could get himself and his family over here.

I am sure there were plenty of folks over in the Soviet Union that "hated" us the same way, as well.

I think a BETTER question would be why the Western Europeans (as well as our good neighbors to the north) hate us so...

Another good question would be, should we care?

"It is better to suffer the hatred of evil men than their company"

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 01:13 PM

Yes, Muslim justice as set out in the Qran (and in the Christian and Jewish Old Testament) is a viciously mean set of rules, Dickey. It's an insane set of rules. I don't subscribe to it. Fortunately, there are plenty of more liberal and modern Muslims, Christians, and Jews who don't either.

Every religion has its extremists, I'm afraid, and they're no fun to deal with.

Yes, the Bible and the Qran can be used to justify anything. You just select the passage that suits your purpose, and interpret it the way that suits your purpose.

People are tricky that way... ;-)

Anyway, I've got a brand new theory as to why Iraq, Iran, and North Korea hate America....(quite aside from the fact that America has overtly threatened them on a number of occasions...)

It's unrequited love! They feel that America has rejected them. And remember, there is no anger like that of a lover spurned. I think you could also say that about Castro's Cuba. Shortly after his revolution succeeded, Castro went to New York to speak at the U.N., and he went with the expectation that he would then go to Washington and speak to the president and Congress and work out friendly trade agreements and stuff.

They wouldn't even talk to him. Total rejection. Nothing hurts like rejection, Dickey. (smile) The gloves were off after that. He went to Russia on the rebound.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Dickey
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 08:29 AM

It's a mean old world ain't it Little Hawk? But if you study it closely you will see it is getting less mean all the time.

The gist of the words by the former Muslim terrorist is that the "hate" is not caused by foreign policy but a desire for fundamental muslim justice to prevail in the world and not just in the middle east. I think you will agree that Muslim justice, stoning to death of women and homos for example, is very mean indeed.

The Bible and the Qur'an both are books where you can find anything argued both ways. For and against peace. For and against killing those that disagree with you. Therefore they can be used to support or condemn any position thay anyone takes. As far as I can see, religion has been used as a reason for wars and killing more than anything else. Remember Patton used to pray to God for good conditions so his men could kill the Germans?

"Almighty and most merciful Father, we humbly beseech Thee, of Thy great goodness, to restrain these immoderate rains with which we have had to contend. Grant us fair weather for Battle. Graciously hearken to us as soldiers who call upon Thee that, armed with Thy power, we may advance from victory to victory, and crush the oppression and wickedness of our enemies and establish Thy justice among men and nations."

I am not a religious person but I seek to get along with anybody of any religion, to coexist, to not force my beliefs or non beliefs on anyone else. But when someone announces they want to kill me because I do not believe what they believe, I tend to resist being either killed or being converted to their beliefs.

I live within sight of a brand new "Islamic Learning Center" that is still under construction. I am wondering if it will change the character of the neighbor hood. I am wondering if Muslim families will buy the neighboring houses that go up for sale. I am wondering if they will start imposing their belief system on others and be biased in their treatment of non Muslims.

I am fully hoping I can coexist with these people if the move in as I anticipate but if they show me intolerance, they will get intolerance in return but I am not going to be the to cast the first stone.

By the way did you know that when Muslims buy a house they can't pay interest so the interest is added to the price of the home up front? Or it is called rent paid over and above the payment toward the principle.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 07 - 12:14 AM

Uh-huh. Well, here's a plea to all people and their governments:

We must renounce the use of terror, whether it is carried out by hidden cells (such as Al Queda) or by national armies (any of them) or by covert agencies (such as the CIA) on behalf of national governments. All actions of organized and premeditated violence are the use of terror...since they are clearly intended to terrorize someone else into surrender...or to simply kill someone else who is regarded as "undesirible" from the point of view of he who orders to the terror attacks to be carried out.

We must renounce the use of aggression. (based on the notion that one has the right to attack others first, as Hitler did to Poland, as Japan did to Pearl Harbor (etc), and as the USA and Britain did more recently to Iraq and Afghanistan.)

We must renounce the use of torture.

We must renounce the abrogation of our own people's civil rights in the name of "security".

We must renounce the further building of weapons of mass destruction.

We must renounce the unwillingness to honestly confront evil when it is we, our own governments, agencies, and armed forces who are doing it.

There's a reasonable start. Apply it not only to the Muslims worldwide, but also to all other people on this planet, and tell me when you think you can achieve it.

Remember what it says in the Bible, Dickey? (I know you respect the Bible.) It says not to go on and on about the speck in the other fellow's eye, while ignoring the beam that is stuck in your own eye. What do you think all these governments are doing when they pretend that evil can be seen only on the face of their chosen enemy?

They're lying. And they are committing evil acts themselves in the process.

Of course, this sort of thing has been going on for centuries, so why should anyone be surprised...?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Dickey
Date: 02 Jul 07 - 11:37 PM

My plea to fellow Muslims: you must renounce terror


As the bombers return to Britain, Hassan Butt, who was once a member of radical group Al-Muhajiroun, raising funds for extremists and calling for attacks on British citizens, explains why he was wrong

Sunday July 1, 2007
The Observer

When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network, a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology, I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy.

By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the 'Blair's bombs' line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.

Article continues
Friday's attempt to cause mass destruction in London with strategically placed car bombs is so reminiscent of other recent British Islamic extremist plots that it is likely to have been carried out by my former peers..."

        "..people are again articulating the line that violence carried out by Muslims is all to do with foreign policy. For example, yesterday on Radio 4's Today programme, the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: 'What all our intelligence shows about the opinions of disaffected young Muslims is the main driving force is not Afghanistan, it is mainly Iraq.'

He then refused to acknowledge the role of Islamist ideology in terrorism and said that the Muslim Brotherhood and those who give a religious mandate to suicide bombings in Palestine were genuinely representative of Islam.

I left the BJN in February 2006, but if I were still fighting for their cause, I'd be laughing once again. Mohammad Sidique Khan, the leader of the 7 July bombings, and I were both part of the BJN - I met him on two occasions - and though many British extremists are angered by the deaths of fellow Muslim across the world, what drove me and many of my peers to plot acts of extreme terror within Britain, our own homeland and abroad, was a sense that we were fighting for the creation of a revolutionary state that would eventually bring Islamic justice to the world..."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2115832,00.html

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:14 PM

The comma is a distraction. A very small one, sure, but with the page layout bringing it repeatedly to the top and to one's attention, it grates. The annoyance grows, ever so slowly . . .

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:07 PM

Osama Bin Laden has told us in plain English why they hate us. We invaded their land and we still have troops ,(infidels) on their holy ground. Sure, we can disagree with him all night but that's not what it's about. It is THEIR attitude that we have to deal with.

One of the well known secrets of military success is, "Know your enemy".

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 12:01 PM

>So, how wisely is America now being governed?

That again is a matter of perception, isn't it? <

No, the quality of the current administration and the Congress is pretty much passed as a subject of debate.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:55 AM

Teribus, I do think that the USA is the most feared country in the world at present, and is seen by a majority of people in the world as a rogue nation that is dangerous and out of control. I don't think there's really any doubt about it. And I don't think they truly protect anything but their own corporate mercantile interests.

Remember what Benito Juarez said?

"Poor Mexico. So far from God and so near the United States."

He was speaking from experience.

Walrus made a good point. National attitudes are not driven so much by fact as they are by perception. Perceptions are shaped by whatever mythology a government feeds to its people, in its schools and its media. North Korea teaches its kids to hate and fear the South Koreans and the USA. The USA teaches its kids to hate and fear North Korea, Iran, and various other such boogeymen. These things are not done to help anybody in the ordinary public, but to serve some grand and shadowy domestic or international purpose which is never clearly explained to those kids growing up. They are done to prepare people to go out and kill other people.

It's the ultimate game of competition, played out on the world stage, and it is founded upon lies, greed, and hypocrisy.

Great empires always do a lot of that...and yet, you can defend them by saying that they also establish order and bring various advancements (as the Romans did) (as the British did) (as the Americans have done in various cases too) (as still other empires have done). Well, yes, that's part of the picture. As you say, they (the Romans) brought "security, prosperity, order, good governance and improvement". I'd agree with that. Still, they were certainly resented, because they brought all of that at the point of a sword, and they came into other people's land and took it for their own...not because they loved other people or loved freedom and justice...no, because they loved conquest. They did it to satisfy their own appetites.

So again, it's a matter of perception, isn't it?

When Rome was governed well and wisely, then their subject peoples would have felt more respect for them. When Rome's rule deteriorated badly under a series of corrupt emperors, their subject peoples began to lose respect for them.

So, how wisely is America now being governed?

That again is a matter of perception, isn't it?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:52 AM

Well, I can't see that the comma in that sentence matters much one way or the other. While unnecessary, and incorrect, it does not create any ambiguity.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: heric
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 11:35 AM

The question is further flawed in the asking beause of the comma after Iraq. You've got to ask yourself, cookster, do commas matter?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: Dickey
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM

Amos: I totally agree that "The proposition, as artbrooks mentioned, is flawed in the asking. Individuals hate; groups like nations do not. When media, or noise and brouhaha create enough Fear Uncertainty and Doubt to make it appear that a whole group shares a hatred it is time to start talking to individuals; they are the only ones who can properly own an emotion or an attitude, and generally you will find most of them much more rational than any cloud of black-PR smoke will ever seem to be."

It is difficul to see through the media and government hype. Also foreign propaganda has a lot to do with it.

A further flaw in the question is that it implies everybody in Iraq and North Korea hates everybody in America and rather inflammatory. It is like asking why do wives hate their Mothers in Law?

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:34 AM

Perhaps it"s the Americans' APPARENT disdain for anything and anyone outside their own admittedly rather large and complex country? Before the D-day invasion of Normandy, it was considered necessary to issue all American troops with a booklet outlining the history of France and its people, and the achievements of its engineers and scientists in the fields of aviation,medicine,electricity, mathematics,civil engineering, town planning, and the list goes on, whilst the average GI could only think of cheese, garlic, and women with hairy armpits ! Not that they were not CORRECT in that assessment, of course, but when carrying out an invasion of someone elses' country, whether hostile or for "liberation", it makes a huge difference if the "invader" shows respect for, and knowledge of, the ways ,habits and customs of the "invaded" .In virtually every film that I have seen, featuring the US army or Marines fighting in Germany, Korea, Vietnam, or wherever, the enemy are ALWAYS portrayed as being dumb savages, and ALWAYS referred to as Krauts, Gooks, Slopeheads, or whatever, which is very arrogant. History shows us that people who fail to understand or respect their enemies get their arse ( ASS) kicked !!! When I saw those pictures of that US Army woman humiliating her Iraqi prisoners in that disgusting way, ( and I don"t care how justified she thought she was, and anyway she seemed to be enjoying it too much) , I thought " Uh OH !! The Yanks have lost us this one---every Arab in the world is going to be against us NOW !!" And , of course, they are . And you can bet North Korean TV had a propaganda field-day with that one, too. !!

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 09:15 AM

It would be a surprise to the soldiers fighting on the side of the South Koreans, including my father, that the Chinese stopped at the 38th parallel. In fact, the Chinese took Seoul, the Korean capitol, and held it for several months.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: pirandello
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 07:44 AM

Teribus, it is FACT that the Allies invaded North Korea at the insistence of MacAthur when Truman was happy for the Allies to stop at the 38th parallel. It is FACT that the Allies managed to get as far as the Yalu River which marks the geographical and political border with China. It is FACT that the Allies were ignominiously thrown back to the 38th prallel by vastly superior Chinese forces.
The only reason that China did not go further was because her supply lines were becoming dangerously over-extended.

Subject: RE: Why do Iraq,and Korea hate America?
From: The Walrus
Date: 27 Jun 07 - 06:27 AM

Gentlemen Please!

The point about 'Folk Histories' and 'National Attitudes' is that they are not driven by fact, they are driven by PERCEPTION.

As far as the North Korean people are concerned, the USA (or the UN) WERE the invaders, not because of fact, but because that's what they have been taught for the last Fifty-odd years.

By the same token, I have spoken with Americans who solomnly declare that the USA has never lost a War (?!!!) when challenged over Vietnam, that was put down to the collapse of the South Vietnamese while the War of 1812 was declared a victory because impressment of (nominally) British born seamen* from American ships ended (Ignoring the fact that the cause for impressment - the Napoleonic Wars - had ended and the Invasion of Canada had failed badly) - Again, this was not a matter of Fact, but of Perception, they had been taught that way, if not by the schools, then by the likes of Hollywood and TV.

I'm sure that I, and everyone else on this forum, have similar problems as none of us grew up in isolation.

It's not what 'Nation A' plan to do (or not) to 'Nation B', it's what the people of 'B' believe that will shape their attitudes.
It's never about what really happened, it's what people believe.

Tom (Walrus)


* The official excuse for impressment of seamen from foreign ships, More honoured in the breach than the observance