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BS: The Republican Default Crises
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Donuel Date: 03 Aug 11 - 03:01 PM Way to go. I feel Like Boehner when Obama says he agrees with John. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:55 PM Donuel: "People who own millions or billions in gold are doing very well now as I predicted. If you have an ounce you only made $17 . But like I said it will soon be oversold and the price will drop like a gold bubble. I know this, not because I worked for criminals at Bear Sterns, but because I can add and subtract." I wholeheartedly agree!! The day will come when gold won't be worth more than it's weight of bubble gum of the same size! By then the damage done by the 'Fanatic Frantics' will be enormous! Don't believe them!...ANY of them!! Bring them what you get when you compose a beautiful piece, and through it, lead them to where you got it! Regards, Sanity |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Donuel Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:35 PM Remember all those posts I made about gold in July? Well its checkable. People who own millions or billions in gold are doing very well now as I predicted. If you have an ounce you only made $17 . But like I said it will soon be oversold and the price will drop like a gold bubble. I know this, not because I worked for criminals at Bear Sterns, but because I can add and subtract. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Donuel Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:20 PM Thank goodness the super wealthy will supply stimulus to the US economy any time now. Just wait. It'll trickle down any moment now... wait for it. I think I see it...here it comes...is that it? ...no Well don't worry, they promised back in the Reagan Administration. during Bush 1 and Bush 2 They must just be bideing thier time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:09 PM Jack is 100% correct... Wall Street has finally figured it out... Too bad they have been so busy trying to make Obama look bad (sound familiar) that they didn't realize that had lit their own house on fire in doing so??? I mean, this ain't rocket surgery here... Last month the private sector created 58,000 jobs while state and local governments cut 40,000 jobs... We need 200,000 jobs a month created to cut into the 8,000,000 lost under Bush and cutting government spending (jobs) at this point in time is suicide for the US economy... The leading economists, including Paul Krugman, told *US* that we needed a $1.2T stimulus... All Obama could get out of the Repubs was $300B to go along with $400B in yet more tax cuts??? No stimulus, no recovery... All this was predicted... Ain't all that tough... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Donuel Date: 03 Aug 11 - 02:00 PM The last time the Stock Market declined 9 days in a row was 1978 when the songs at the top of the hit list were Staying Alive by the Bee Gees, Kiss you all over, and You LIght Uo My Life by Debbie Boone. For those who think they believe that politics is at its foundation is a system to cause failure, I feel sad that you drank the Kool Aid. The function of politics is to exercise power to make good things possible for the nation it serves. The ideological divide is the question of which people it designed to serve, the masses or the priviledged few. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 03 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM GfS plunges face into hands, while resting elbows on the desk...Shakes head slowly, draws long breath....."SIGHHHHhhh" Mutters, "Snap now, and avoid the rush, Ol' Pal". "Huh?......Who me??..................What??" GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Jack the Sailor Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:45 AM No it isn't. The point is to choose who gets to govern until the next election. The problem is that the GOP does not want the country to be governed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Aug 11 - 11:29 AM The whole point of party politics is to cause the other party to fail! And that's why it has produced this travesty of a political system that we presently have. It was a stupid idea. It should never have been done. There are other and far better ways to democratically govern a society. People now can't seem to think of them because they apparently don't have the imagination to even try. They just take the existing party system for granted, and they never look beyond it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Donuel Date: 03 Aug 11 - 09:16 AM Rush LImbaugh, Eric Cantor, Boehner and McConnel have all raised thier arms and yelled "SUCCESS !" The day after Obama was elected we heard the central strategy of the Republican party. "I HOPE HE FAILS." of course to create a failure for Obama one would have to create failure for the nation at large. McConnel confirmed the failure strategy when he said "The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.... Our single biggest political goal is to give our nominee for president the maximum opportunity to be successful." This wasn't just some throwaway line -- McConnell is explaining, on the record, how he intends to approach the policymaking process in 2011 and 2012. And as far as the Republicans' Senate leader is concerned, all of his efforts will be built around destruction. It's tempting to think responsible lawmakers, when asked about their top goals, would talk about job creation, national security, immigration policy, energy, etc. But not Mitch McConnell. He sees destroying the president of the United States in the midst of multiple crises as his "single most important" goal. This is what the administration is supposed to negotiate with next year. Congress will spend 1.2 billion dollars on thier summer break since they did not fund the FAA. The safety inspectors are working for free and the taxes (22 million dollars a day) are being lost. The transportation secretary made a deal that he would not mention that safety inspectors are not being paid in return for Airlines giving back the money they took by hiking fairs to equal what the taxes were and keeping it for themselves. Expensive vacations for Congress but it is actually money wasted because the republicans want to abolish all union jobs in the FAA and Democrat Senator Rockeller will not cave. So the FAA is virtually shut down, taxes go uncollected and 4000 jobs to build safety systems and infrastructure are lost until the House members in COngress take action maybe when they get back from VAY KAY. YEAH WE WON LETS PARTY LIKE ITS 2012 cuz we made OBAMA America FAIL just look at the markets YAAHOOO |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Jack the Sailor Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:49 PM No. I'm pretty sure he is the real deal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:44 PM LOL! Yeah...but he's not their Satan...if you know what I mean. He's their political opponents' Satan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Jack the Sailor Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:40 PM "They've obviously got Mr Obama confused with Satan... ;-) What would they do if they didn't have him?" They have Satan. He used to be Vice President. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:23 PM They've obviously got Mr Obama confused with Satan... ;-) What would they do if they didn't have him? Oh well...they could always have Hillary instead, I guess. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Stringsinger Date: 01 Aug 11 - 05:11 PM The Tea Party has said that anything Obama puts forward is dead on arrival. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Aug 11 - 04:49 PM Thank God for that, gnu! My customers all pay me in US dollars, and I've been holding as much of it as I can in the US dollar account while the Loonie was up so damned high. I'm very glad the Canadian dollar is dropping now. Jack? I don't trust either Obama or Hillary Clinton! I trust Hillary about as far as I can throw a refrigerator, Obama only slightly more than that. ;-) I do trust Dennis Kucinich, but he'll never be president. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Greg F. Date: 01 Aug 11 - 03:23 PM Once again I find myself thinking of what Jim Kunen said in the 60's........"America......I love what it could be; I hate what it is." Don't forget old Phil, Spaw. Nobody ever does his 4th verse (its not in the DigiTrad either- Mud Elves take note) kinda like Woody's verse about the posted sign etc. in "This Land..." Gives me a real warm feeling in my bowels to realize how we're right back where we were in 1963- or worse. ==== THE POWER AND THE GLORY (Phil Ochs) Come on and take a walk with me thru this green and growing land Walk thru the meadows and the mountains and the sand Walk thru the valleys and the rivers and the plains Walk thru the sun and walk thru the rain CH: Here is a land full of power and glory Beauty that words cannot recall Oh her power shall rest on the strength of her freedom Her glory shall rest on us all From Colorado, Kansas, and the Carolinas too Virginia and Alaska, from the old to the new Texas and Ohio and the California shore Tell me, who could ask for more Yet she's only as rich as the poorest of her poor Only as free as the padlocked prison door Only as strong as our love for this land Only as tall as we stand But our land is still troubled by men who have to hate They twist away our freedom and they twist away our fate Fear is their weapon and treason is their cry We can stop them if we try |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: gnu Date: 01 Aug 11 - 01:44 PM Canuck buck is US$1.0436 right now. Two pennies "overnight". Little Hawk... feeling a bit better? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Donuel Date: 01 Aug 11 - 11:51 AM Please p;ease do not tell the Tea Party, but in the fine print the tea party will not be invited to the party next time. You see there is a provision for a commitee *the posse of 6* to take the issue out of the hands of Freshmaen House members and decide behind closed doors in 2012. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Jack the Sailor Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:55 AM Not not trusting Obama is one thing. Trusting Hillary Clinton is another. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 01 Aug 11 - 09:47 AM Chill, ya'll... The Te3a Party came to this gun fight with only one bullet in their gun and they have fired it... Watch the conversation change once Obama signs this bill... The Tea Party has shot it's wad... They have spent whatever political capital they had here... Only the rabid radicals are behind them... The adults will take over from here... And, as I understand this 50% of the initial $1T (over 10 years, folks) will come outta Defense... That leaves $50B a year from "everything else"... Here's another point that I believe is part of this bill... The 2nd round of "cuts" to be negotiated by a bi-partisan commission/committee will be tasked with reducing the "deficit" by $1.5T which can and very well may include revenues... That's the way I understand it at this point... It will be much clearer in the coming days but if that is the case then the conversation is going to change drastically in the coming days, weeks and months... No matter, the Dems are well positioned to run on revenues for 2012... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:59 AM Spaw - "During the elections I kept saying that I didn't really trust Obama while many declared him the latest savior. He is the living proof that it matters little who holds an office, the methodology, the process, will control it all." Exactly. That is what I have been saying here for years, much to the outrage of Don Firth, who keeps quoting Dante, as if that meant anything. Thank you, Spaw. Let's see if Mr Firth now hurls Dante at you and accuses you of "colorless neutrality". He probably won't, though, because it usually matters a lot less here to the most argumentative political bellyachers on this forum what is said than who said it. They have their favorites, those who are magically above reproach, just like Israel...and they have those whom they enjoy slagging and slamming on a regular basis. GfS heads up the list when it comes to being subjected to slagging by those righteous folks, despite the fact that GfS often makes a great deal more sense than most of the so-called "progressives" here manage to. As a radical progressive myself who had some faint hopes in 2008 that Mr Obama just might make a difference, but has seen those hopes vanish utterly, may I say that I agree totally with what Spaw said in his last post. Yes, HE said it, folks. The patron saint of Mudcat has spoken and he has not approved of Mr Obama! Watcha gonna do now? Who ya gonna call? Ghostbusters? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Don Firth Date: 01 Aug 11 - 02:14 AM Nothing for me to apologize for. But you? Lots! But I'm not going to hold my breath. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 01 Aug 11 - 01:57 AM Catspaw 49: "During the elections I kept saying that I didn't really trust Obama while many declared him the latest savior. He is the living proof that it matters little who holds an office, the methodology, the process, will control it all..." During the elections you and I exchanged posts...I agree, and you are right!!! Don Firth: "P. S. I fully realize that I'm wasting my time here. People are very fond of glib, "I'm really, really clever because I know what's not in the history books!" Did it ever occur to you that the reason it's not in the history books is because it's simply not true?" .....or the posts you allude to!....but don't let it stop you! Ever thought of apologizing?? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: artbrooks Date: 01 Aug 11 - 01:34 AM Tea Party hates it. Progressives hate it. Must be some good in there somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Aug 11 - 01:26 AM This July 11th article from Rolling Stone might shed some light on the issue: Obama Doesn't Want a Progressive Deficit Deal POSTED: July 11, 11:31 AM ET (written by Matt Taibbi for Rolling Stone) One expects the debt-ceiling mess to involve a lot of ostentatious chest-pounding on both sides, for despite the fact that this is a deadly serious issue – the fact that we're even considering incurring an intentional catastrophe via a default is incredible, a testament to the bottomless stupidity inherent in our political climate – this whole debate is primarily an exercise in political posturing. That Republicans are holding up what should be a routine, if unpleasant, decision to raise the debt ceiling in order to portray themselves as the uncompromising defenders of the budget-balancing faith (a howling idiocy in itself, given what went on during the Bush years) is obvious to most rational observers. It's the obvious play for the lame-duck party entering an election year, and they're playing it, with the requisite hysteria. But what is becoming equally obvious, to both sides, is that the Obama White House is using this same artificial calamity to pitch its own increasingly rightward tilt to voters in advance of the 2012 elections. It has been extremely interesting in the last weeks to see observers on both sides of the aisle make this point. Just yesterday, the inimitable New York Times conservative Ross Douthat listed Obama's not-so-secret rightward push as a the first in a list of reasons why the Republicans should dig in even more, instead of making a sensible deal: Barack Obama wants a right-leaning deficit deal. For months, liberals have expressed frustration with the president's deficit strategy. The White House made no effort to tie a debt ceiling vote to the extension of the Bush tax cuts last December. It pre-emptively conceded that any increase in the ceiling should be accompanied by spending cuts. And every time Republicans dug in their heels, the administration gave ground. The not-so-secret secret is that the White House has given ground on purpose. Just as Republicans want to use the debt ceiling to make the president live with bigger spending cuts than he would otherwise support, Obama's political team wants to use the leverage provided by those cra-a-a-zy Tea Partiers to make Democrats live with bigger spending cuts than they normally would support. Douthat makes this observation, then argues that the Republicans should recognize Obama's hidden motive and hold out for an even better deal. It will then be a race to see which party can abandon employment in favor of deficit reduction faster. He writes: Why? Because the more conservative-seeming the final deal, the better for the president's re-election effort. In that environment, Republicans have every incentive to push and keep pushing. Since any deal they cut will be used as an election-year prop in 2012, they need to make sure the president actually earns his budget-cutting bona fides. This is interesting because just last week, the liberal opposite of Douthat at the Times, Paul Krugman, came to the same conclusion: It's getting harder and harder to trust Mr. Obama's motives in the budget fight, given the way his economic rhetoric has veered to the right. In fact, if all you did was listen to his speeches, you might conclude that he basically shares the G.O.P.'s diagnosis of what ails our economy and what should be done to fix it. And maybe that's not a false impression; maybe it's the simple truth. One striking example of this rightward shift came in last weekend's presidential address, in which Mr. Obama had this to say about the economics of the budget: "Government has to start living within its means, just like families do. We have to cut the spending we can't afford so we can put the economy on sounder footing, and give our businesses the confidence they need to grow and create jobs." Krugman seems to believe that Obama has basically purged all of his real economic advisors and is doing what Bush did on foreign policy -- engaging in complex and portentous policy initiatives at the behest not of experts, but political advisors. Just as Bush had Karl Rove telling him when and how to launch military invasions and drop bombs on unsuspecting foreign human beings in order to establish electoral credentials, Obama might be playing chicken with the budget for the benefit of undecideds in Florida and Ohio: Some of what we're hearing is presumably coming from the political team, whose members seem to believe that a move toward Republican positions, reminiscent of former President Bill Clinton's "triangulation" in the 1990s, is the key to Mr. Obama's re-election. And Mr. Clinton did, indeed, rebound from a big defeat in the 1994 midterms to win big two years later. But some of us think that the rebound had less to do with his rhetorical move to the center than with the five million jobs the economy added over those two years — an achievement not likely to be repeated this time, especially not in the face of harsh spending cuts. The blindness of the DLC-era "Third Way" Democratic Party continues to be an astounding thing. For more than a decade now they have been clinging to the idea that the path to electoral success is social liberalism plus laissez-faire economics – in other words, get Wall Street and corporate America to fund your campaigns, and get minorities, pro-choice and gay marriage activists (who will always frightened into loyalty by the Tea Party/Christian loonies on the other side) to march at your rallies and vote every November. They've abandoned the unions-and-jobs platform that was the party's anchor since Roosevelt, and the latest innovations all involve peeling back their own policy legacies from the 20th century. Obama's new plan, for instance, might involve slashing Medicare and Social Security under "pressure" from the Republicans. I simply don't believe the Democrats would really be worse off with voters if they committed themselves to putting people back to work, policing Wall Street, throwing their weight behind a real public option in health care, making hedge fund managers pay the same tax rates as ordinary people, ending the pointless wars abroad, etc. That they won't do these things because they're afraid of public criticism, and "responding to pressure," is an increasingly transparent lie. This "Please, Br'er Fox, don't throw me into dat dere briar patch" deal isn't going to work for much longer. Just about everybody knows now that they want to go into that briar patch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Aug 11 - 12:45 AM MArkS- When someone decides to pay me less than I've been guaranteed on a social insurance policy I've paid for over some 40 years, it's costing me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: catspaw49 Date: 31 Jul 11 - 11:26 PM Once again I find myself thinking of what Jim Kunen said in the 60's........"America......I love what it could be; I hate what it is." During the elections I kept saying that I didn't really trust Obama while many declared him the latest savior. He is the living proof that it matters little who holds an office, the methodology, the process, will control it all. Even the teabagger dicks failed to achieve all of their wants but the weakness of Barack Obama cannot but sadden many as we watched the sellout take place. Remember the 60's when we claimed someone had been "co-opted?" Look that up in the dictionary now and there will be a 9x12 glossy of Barry the Odious captioned "CO-OPTED MOTHERFUCKER." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Greg F. Date: 31 Jul 11 - 10:45 PM Per several news outlets: Obama underscored that point. He said that, if enacted, the agreement would mean "the lowest level of domestic spending since Dwight Eisenhower was president" more than a half century ago. And this is something to be PROUD of? We been sold down the fucking river, people. YTou ain't seen nothin yet! But everything's OK since the rich bastards and the multinational corporation still get their tax breaks, even if retirees and poor people can't eat or get the services they need. I'm ashamed to be a citizen of this sad excuse for a country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: MarkS Date: 31 Jul 11 - 10:31 PM Unlikely to cost thousands, Dick, more likely to be in the hundreds range. Not exactly a cost, but more accurately described as a less than anticipated or forgone increase. Unpleasant though, no matter how you define it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: dick greenhaus Date: 31 Jul 11 - 10:15 PM It seems that the GOP has succeeded in something they've been working on since the 1930s----cuts in Social Security. Details (I shudder to think) to follow. Probably a rejiggering of Cost OF Living indices, which can cost people depending on Social Security thousands a year. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:26 PM I see it as a victory for Obama.... Now the Congressional committee will have to cut DoD spending... That's a start... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bill D Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:08 PM So...they have 'almost' agreed on something.... which the extremists at both ends won't like at all... we shall see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Richard Bridge Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:43 PM I do see a parallel here. One group of neanderthals has shut down criticism of themselves here, and another bunch of neanderthals has ensured there will be no new taxes. America is broken. Time for a tabula rasa. Do what the Syrian people are doing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:21 PM Actually, Don, like today's recovery the 30s did have growth... Just not robust as from '41 on... The WPA and CCC were 100% the correct things to do because a.) it gave people hope, b.) we got a lot of infrastructure built c.) it put people to work and d.) it got money into the economy... It was slowly gaining speed when the US entered (not started) WW II which required massive spending... That is my point... People are arguing that Keyes model is and was wrong but most real economists disagree... It is exactly what we need right now... If the private sector does its part and the public sector does its part that's like two engines pulling rather than one... Keynesian economics can get *US* out of this rut but you can't go on a cutting spree while using it ot it will fail every time... The Repubs know this and that is why they want as much $$$ out of government ***right now*** as they can get because they want as much unemployement as they can get going into next years elections... They really don't care if if hurts the country... This isn't just an opinion on my part... It's also the view of leading economists, Nobel Prize winning Paul Krugman, as well... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM Sorry, GfinS, but I have no clue as to what debate you are watching... The Repubs found themselves with a "free shot" at taking out some of the New Deal and they took it... The fact that the Dems realized that, yes, there are some seriously crazy people in the House who lied their way into office with promises of jobs and then stripped off their sheep clothing, pulled out their assault rifles and started firing at the New Deal is ***not*** evidence that both parties are the same... Lose that song from your repertoire... It's old, thread worn and sucks... And is an out right lie... And while you are at it take the blinders off and earplugs out and join 2011... This ain't 2000 anymore... Hasn't been for a long, long time... How long??? $7T worth of Bush's spending spree, that's how long... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Don Firth Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:32 PM The Great Depression did NOT end with World War II. It was over well before then. This fiction that Roosevelt ended the Depression by starting the war is pure revisionist history, started by William Henry Chamberlin and a cadre of Right Wing Roosevelt haters, and picked up gleefully, years later, by the conspiracy theorists. Japan had been ravaging China (anybody hear of "The Rape of Nanking?") for many years, determined to rule Asia and "turn the Pacific into a Japanese lake," and Germany was out to take over Europe and beyond. The United States, determined to stay out of it, participated to the extent of such things as the Lend-Lease program to Great Britain, and putting an embargo on selling arms to aggressor countries such as Germany, Italy, and Japan, but that was it. Some people (such as Chamberlin) like to cite THAT as FDR's authorizing "a blatant breach of neutrality," thus precipitating us into the war, but the vast majority of Americans, although not wanting to get involved in the hostilities, were appalled at what was going on overseas, and applauded the Lend-Lease program and the embargoes. Then, Japan sucker-punched the United States. Japan sent a diplomatic mission to Washington to talk "peace" and to negotiate for easing our ban on selling them strategic materials. And while the talks were going on, Pearl Harbor was bombed and most of the American Pacific fleet was destroyed. We had been "sneak-attacked." In fact, the Japanese didn't know how much damage they had actually done. It was revealed later that we had been rendered so defenseless in the Pacific that if the Japanese had then invaded the West Coast of the United States, they would have met little military or naval resistance. I don't seriousy believe that FDR would have really been the evil mastermind of something like THAT! Other than the embargo on strategic materials, we had done nothing to provoke it—except that we weren't cooperating sufficiently with the Axis Powers' plan for world conquest. In fact, WE were on the menu ALSO. I was pretty young at the time, but I was very much aware of what was going on, and since it was such a part of my childhood, I have since had a special interest in those events. And rather than hearing about it by sleeping through a high school history class, I REMEMBER what was going on back then and who was doing what to whom. Among other things, I remember my father and a lot of people we knew being out of work, and the happiness and relief when my dad got a job on a WPA road crew. Along with many other people we knew. Within a short time, there were jobs! Jobs other than WPA and CCC. Because those jobs had paid people. They had money to spend again, and they spent it because they HAD to, on things like food and rent. And with money beginning to circulate again, the economy improved almost miraculously. My dad was able to get back into is real profession and things were well on the way to good again. For us and for the whole country. FDR also started the Social Security program, which gave those over 65 a measure of security in their older years. It allowed them to retire rather than having to work 'til they dropped—and it ended "poor houses" and "poor farms" for the elderly. I remember that they called it "Old Age Pension." The elderly hated what it was called (so they changed it to "Social Security") but they were greatly relieved that they would no longer have to work themselves to death, live off their kids, or go to the poor house. And this was in the late Thirties, NOT after December 7th, 1941! Those who blithely pontificate that "FDR ended the Depression by starting World War II" have bought the long-standing Right Wing propaganda and simply ignored what REALLY brought it to an end. It was FDR's instituting the so-called "alphabet agencies" such as the WPA and CCC, which put people back to work and gave them paychecks that, as I said, they had to spend right away on things like food and rent that got the economy going again. And his putting regulatory agencies, like the Securities and Exchange Commission, into place to regulate Wall Street and the banks and stop the endless run of Ponzi schemes that precipitated the Depression in the first place. The Right Wing hated that! And they worked like beavers to either eliminate or render impotent those regulatory agencies. And they finally made it with Ronald Reagan. He either ended them or appointed executives from the businesses themselves to the agencies. [In my best Mr. Rogers voice: "Can you say 'Fox in charge of the chicken coop?'"] THAT is why we're in this mess today. And NOW, they want to kill Social Security and Medicare! What we need now is someone with a grasp of the situation, and the intelligence, charisma, and GUTS to do what FDR did. And no, not start a war. Haven't those of you who insist on mindlessly intoning the slanderous canard about FDR ending the Depression by starting a World War noticed? We're already IN a couple of wars!! How is THAT working for you? Don Firth P. S. I fully realize that I'm wasting my time here. People are very fond of glib, "I'm really, really clever because I know what's not in the history books!" Did it ever occur to you that the reason it's not in the history books is because it's simply not true? But, oh, we love our conspiracy theories far too much to ever let them go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM Time out! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,biff Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:11 PM truthfully I do not understand any of the economics. just get along and help others. tax the rich. nuff said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:58 PM He STILL thinks it's a matter of party politics! Is someone paying you? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: gnu Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:47 PM So they have delayed the test vote. It'll all be over close to midnight but they gotta have one last big party on the taxpayer's dime. As for war(s), there can be no default if they are gonna chuck cruise missiles at Syria for storming Hama.... 80 dead. As I said on the other thread... wish I had a whack of extra cash late last week. I'd'a bought greenbacks at $1.063 and made good money come October. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:54 AM That is my point, LH... No, we don't need another big war or even a new and shiny smallish war, for that matter... What we do need is to get our heads wrapped around what it will take to get out country humming again... The corporations have no interst or motivation in helping here so count them out unless your model is to "privatize" everything down to charging Little Suzie for riding her trike on the sidewalk in front of her house and charging her parents for the air that Little Suzie breathes... Heck, why not privatize gravity, too... Yup, don't want yer shit floating around the house (you included) then pay up your Acme Gravity, Inc bill and we'll be out in a couple days to restore your service... I mean, privatization is a mean spirited "wet dream" of the rich... But never mind wet dream and gravity... No, I take it back, we do need a war... We need to declare war on stupid policies that are put in place by those who will profit rather than sound policies that are beneficial for the entire nation... The interstate highway system is the poster child of what government can do when we have a culture and mentality that we need to do things that benefit everyone... This war could include some things that have worked in the past such as the WPA or the CCC where unemployed people will be paid to work on our crumbling infrastructure... But we don't have to follow that model... We could just use existing companies and new start-up companies which the Repubs might find more palatable... But this idea that we need to cut spending during a recovery is flawed in every respect... This is garbage in = garbage out thinking... Last month the private sector added 58,000 jobs... Not great but beat a poke in the eye... But state and local governments had to lay off 40,000 workers... Hey, one don't have to be Menza material to see that, at that rate, the US will be right back in another recession with those kinda of policies... Time for some real Keyensian-ism... Let's go to war to win... Not go to make the rich richer while the working class and American infrastructure continue to crumble... I don't buy pdq's thinking that we have give given the Keyensian model a fair shake... Economists told *US* that the minimum amount it would take to get *US* out of the recession and humming was $1T+... Because the Repubs stamped their feet and had yet another hissy fit all Obama was able to get was $700B and of that only $300B in stimulus and the other $400B in what??? Yup, more fucking tax cuts??? We heed sanity here... If these same hissy fit Repubs got cancer they would seek out the brightest and best doctors yet when it comes to the Nation's over economy they follow the advice of hacks and people who are only interested in gaming the system??? That is insanity.... Nothing more and nothing less... Pure insanity!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:37 AM Bobert: " This just in... Apple has $77B on hand... The U.S. Treasury??? $74B... Ouch... The 20 tax cuts we have given the rich since 1955 are taking a toll..." ...and add a few more into the mix, who have a global agenda, and use 'their' banks....and who can afford to buy the laws???.. ..as I said a few posts ago, we don't have 'representatives' of the people, we have brokers in the Houses, who deal in legislation!...Oh, and do you think they just might have passed laws and loopholes, to help get their 'clients' in position???..as they are now???...Well how the fuck do you think they got that big????...???... ....and all this time you thought they only cared about a Democratic Party, or Republican ideology that they stood for????.......THAT'S THE SHIT THEY WERE FEEDING YOU!!!!.....not their clients!...You got the 'cover story'!.....and you've been spouting it ever since!! Wake up! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Jack the Sailor Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:41 AM People have to live differently, sustainably. My 28 year old step son is doing it. A lot of young people are. Get the dollar down a bit more. We'll make more things here. Buy less foreign energy. Make more of our own. Tax the rich, pay down the debt. Make companies in the US pay taxes in the US on the profits made here. Even better make it state by state. Make GM and Toyota pay income taxes in California on income made selling their goods in California. Things will turn around. We will prosper. Our average life styles will take a hit. But per capita income could drop quite a bit and we would still be pretty comfortable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:59 PM I'm not saying things can't be turned around now, Bobert. They can. Just not with another big war as in the case of WWII, that's all. That method won't work this time. To turn things around this time you need a lot of sustainable new jobs for ordinary Americans...invest money in Main Street, not Wall Street. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:58 PM BTW, if you'd like to continue this ***very important*** discussion then I'll be back when I can get back... This idea that Keynesian economics is a flawed model is a bogus right winged PR story... It hasn't been given a real chance since 1941 when it was last employed and worked exactly how Keyes drew it up... The right hates it because it means investing our energy in a government that brought us the interstate highway system & a man on the moon rather than the failed models of the Enrons, BPs and Wall Streets... Uh huh... Guess again... I gotta go to bed... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: pdq Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:56 PM Look up what FDR's Secretary of Treasury Morganthau said about "pump priming". He said it was a failure. That was about 1938. If you want to inform yourself, look it up. Not much elase I can do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:48 PM So, not to to be assuming anything here, pdq, but if I interpret what you are saying is that in terms of economic theories, you reject the possibility that Keynesian economics had nothin' to do with ending the Great depression with the massive infusion of borrowed money for the war effort??? Hmmmmm??? Very strange logic... So you take a bunch of your human and natural resources and blow them up and kill a bunch of other folks is what ended the Great Depression but had nothin' to do with the fact that people had jobs and were getting paid??? Uh huh... There is something seriously wrong with your logic and your understanding of economics... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: pdq Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:33 PM "The sleeping giant awoke and everybody got focused on the same goal." ~ me Note that I amswered the question before it was asked. I ain't pdq for nuttin'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:26 PM Ummmm, not to seem impatient, pdq, but the ball is in your court... How did WW II end the Depression??? B~ |
