BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 24 Mar 02 - 08:51 AM

Useful,informative and brave post Joe.

On the question of ratios, I've seen the proportion of offending priests put at 0.3 per cent, and that was said to be marginally lower than society in general and significantly lower than in some other movements which are traditionally targetted by paedophiles, eg scouting. But as I think you acknowledge, abuse by a priest is a betrayal of trust on a different scale from almost anything you could think of, and should have been dealt with much more pro-actively and aggressively by the hierarchy.

Joe, if you follow up that BBC link I gave earlier, you will find an edited transcript which includes an interview with a Fr Tom Daly, who was (by his account anyway) kicked out of the nuncio's office in Washington when he failed to go along with a cover-up policy. He said (I know I'm repeating this but it bears repeating) that victims were treated not just arrogantly but aggressively.

I had direct personal experience of the arrogance bit when I tried to raise the question of Archbishop Ward continuing in post in Cardiff, Wales, after two of his priests had been convicted of criminal behaviour that the archbish knew about (he actually recruited one of the two, knowing him to have been kicked out of another organisation for child abuse).

Ward himself had been suspended for a year while police investigated rape allegations against him, and was finally sacked by the pope last year. My journalistic enquiries, supported by two victims and eventually made via recorded delivery and including stamped, addressed envelopes, evoked no acknowledgement at all, either from the primate for England and Wales or from the apostolic nuncio.

Re the "what to do" question, I don't see that the newspapers come into it. Any suspicion of criminal behavioiur should be reported to the police, and if that results in newspaper coverage or encourage civil claims on the church coffers, frankly those should not be factors. Informing the police should be mandatory, yet it is not even mentioned in church guidelines. (In a recent UK case a bishop did indeed notify the police but also tipped off the suspected priest, giving him time to reformat his computer etc. The bishop's action in this case was itself criminal, but again the church guidelines should be absolutely explicit.)

Your point about control is fair enough, Joe. But America is simply not typical in this respect. In what I think I called "primitive" rural communities eg in France, southern Italy, etc, and notably Ireland, the authority of the church has been pervasive. As I said maybe in another thread, Dev actually allowed Archbishop McQuaid to dictate significant chunks of the Irish constitution.

McQuaid in fact effectively ruled the roost for more than 20 years. Perhaps none of his successors would have succeeded (as he did) in getting a public librarian sacked for being protestant, but his baleful influence has been in evidence until very recent times. In Dublin, if not so much beyond the Pale, there has now been a pronounced and I think irreversible reaction against catholic influence. I would guess this is also true in the post-totalitarian regimes of the Iberian countries, but don't know.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 07:45 PM

When I was in seventh grade, a priest from our parish took five of us boys on a two-week trip from Wisconsin to Toronto. We had a great time, and nothing awful happened. I guess it wouldn't be possible for a priest to do that now, and I think that's too bad.

I studied for the priesthood at St. Francis Seminary in Milwaukee from 1962-70, ninth grade through college. I had a great time and got a great education, and nothing awful happened. There was a religious order that had a seminary not far from us - I found out recently that there had been sex problems there in the 1960's - priests on the faculty having sex with male students.

I wonder why it didn't happen to any great extent in the Milwaukee archdiocese. I think one reason is that since the 1940's or earlier, Milwaukee has had bishops who have been quite progressive. They haven't been afraid to allow questioning and discussion, and they have never assumed that the Church is perfect.

When I was a junior in college, we all went through a battery of psychological tests and an interview with a psychiatrist. A few months later, a few of my classmates quietly left school, and nobody ever knew exactly why. We speculated that they had been weeded out by the psychiatric examinations, and I suppose that's what happened. I guess it would have been improper for the seminary administration to give us an explanation - but the whole process was a bit spooky. Necessary, I suppose, but spooky.

Now I'm in the Sacramento diocese. I teach and do other work about 20 hours a week in varius church activities, and I think I've had access to "insider" information that doesn't get published in the newspapers. I have friends in the bishop's office, and one friend in the doctrine office in Rome (excuse my name-dropping). We've had a few problems with priests how made improper advances toward women, but no significant problems with pedophelia. The women problems were handled quickly, and serious action was taken against the priests involved. The diocese did not give full information about the problems to the press or to law enforcement, but there was no criminal conduct involved that I'm aware of.

For quite some time, I've been looking for reliable statistical information on the problem of pedophelia in the Catholic Church. Kendall says a thousand priests have been charged, but that's a thousand out of how many and over what period of time? I've read fairly credible sources who say that the percentage of priests involved in pedophelia is no higher than the percentage among men in general - but I'm not completely satisfied with the information I've found on that so far. I think it's quite possible that the percentage of perpetrators is no higher, but it seems likely that priest pedophiles may have a higher number of victims (with a lower number of incidents per victim). Pedophile priests certainly make more interesting headlines than pedophile uncles, so the news coverage may put the problem out of perspective. That's not an excuse - people should be able to expect exemplary conduct from priests. However, people should also be aware that there are always a few bad apples in every bushel.

What I don't understand is the cover-ups, although I have some ideas on the subject. Cardinal Law has admitted that he had known of the Geoghan problem for a number of years - but he hasn't given an explanation for why he failed to take action. Actually, is seems Law did take action, but what he did wasn't effective. I think it may be that Law and other bishops have been very naive, that they were taken in by the very qualities that enables the pedophile priests to charm little boys into having sex.

I think that for most of us, pedophilia is unthinkable, and an automatic first response might be to deny it happened. It just isn't part of reality for most people.

I've interviewed a number of convicted pedophiles who applied for government security clearances - they all were very charming, convincing, and contrite. It was hard for me to believe that they'd do a horrible thing like molesting children. I can imagine it would be even harder for priests and bishops to believe pedophilia charges made against a nice man they've known for decades.

Then there's the "deep pockets" problem. The Catholic Church is a multifaceted organization, with schools, healthcare facilities, soup kitchens, and any number of facilities that provide service to the community. If the Church has to pay millions of dollars in the impossible task of compensating for sexual abuse, all of the good works of the Church suffer. A single accusation of child molestation can cost more than the cost of a soup kitchen that feeds hundreds of people every day, and yet a ten-million-dollar settlement doesn't heal the wounds caused to a single victim of pedophilia. So, what's a bishop to do? Should he close down the schools and soup kitchens and give full information about every case to the newspapers and pay whatever is demanded? It's not an easy question to answer.

I think it's obvious that the Catholic Church has finally realized that it has a problem, and it is struggling to find answers. Nowadays, it has become rare for a pedophile priest to escape church and criminal punishment. I think that's progress, isn't it?

For those who observe from the sidelines, it may seem that there is an easy solution to the problem of pedophile priests, but is there? If you were Cardinal Law, what would you do? It's easy to find fault with him and other Catholic bishops, but the problem is a lot more complex than it first seems. I'm sure that the talk show hosts and callers have all sorts of easy answers, but I'm not sure I'd want to see them dealing with the problem.

There's another misunderstanding that I see in this thread and others - outsiders (and some Catholics) seem to see the Church as a monolithic, obedient body that responds immediately to commands from Rome. Time and time again, I see comments about how the Catholic Church "controls" its members. Yes, as in every organization, some leaders in the Catholic Church are heavy-handed in their use of authority - but I don't see how that constitutes "control." I've been a Catholic for 53 years, and I've never seen or experienced the control that some say that Catholic Church has over its members.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 03:45 PM

(speaking as a Catholic here, folks)

The recent statement by the Pope did NOT, in my view, "acknowledge the problem". It acknowledged some priests have committed assaults on children (a very oblique acknowledgement at that.) It did not give any indication of whether the Roman curia considered this to be either morally worse, or more extensive, among priests than any other group (accountants, say). I doubt if even Iain Paisley thought the Pope would say anything less, if he could be persuaded to speak at all - he is hardly likely to promote child abuse as a useful hobby.

No, the immoral behaviour that was not acknowledged wasn't the behaviour of the abusing priest: it was that of the bishop and his superiors in dealing with the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 03:31 PM

Annraoi, the catholic church is peculiar in the degree of moral authority it claims for its priests (who are so elevated that mere women cannot be considered for the work). Aas ar as I can see, no-one here is defending child-abusers whatever their faith or lack of faith.

But there is some difference in my book between an abuser and a bishop, archbishop or cardinal who turns a blind eye to priestly transgressors and behaves arrogantly and even aggressively to those in their flock who are stupid enough to complain.

As for your preference for criminal convictions, you are at odds with your own church here, which goes to shameful lengths to keep these matters out of the courts, which was part of the theme of my earlier posts. Neverheless, some do get banged to rights. A French bishop for instance recently got three months for not informing the police about a priest who had confessed to criminal abuse of children. A Polish seminary has recently banned an archbishop (!) from its premises, in order to protect its novices from further assault. Should it have waited for the law to take its course, Annraoi?

Let me ask again: did you watch that BBC programme? I know catholics who did not, claiming to have "heard it all before." In avoiding it, I believe they lost an apportunity to see exposed in front of them the sheer misery and heartbreak that your church is causing every day. I know the pope has now at last acknowledged the problem, but he could have done so 20 years ago. And Vatican guidance still looks to internal solutions and fails to recogise child abuse as criminal.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 12:30 PM

Jimmy C, I think one of the reasons you will see more about the Catholic Church is because it has been a very old and constant entity in the world for so long, with great power throughout.

None of the other things you mention have that kind of history, cohesiveness, nor power, esp. for anywhere near the length of time. The Church also crossed all boundaries, has been in all walks of life, so to speak, so has touched the lives of many more than say, scouting, individual educational systems, etc. The Mormom Church is just not as old, nor as powerful, either.

I, personally, do not condemn the Church ONLY for the latest horrors involving priests. I condemn it for its very long history of abuses, as a major world power. As I said, this is just another tumbling brick in the wall. Perhaps it is finally reaping what it sowed in the dark secrecy of power. IMO, institutions have karma,too. Who knows if the good it has done will be outweighed by the oppression, etc.?

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 02 - 08:00 AM

For year's Ireland's greatest export to America was its priests

How many of the accused are on Catholic Visas?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 01:03 PM

Amergin, I believe you but my point is this - where is the thread about the Mormon Church ?. Where is the outrage we see on this current thread ?. Why were we not all up in arms about it as well ?. I have gone back 3 years and can find nothing, maybe I am not doing the refresh thing correctly. If so I apologise.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amergin
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:38 PM

Sorry but I would and am outraged when it occurs period....just like I was and am very outraged when the Mormon Church (the church I was raised in) did the very same thing recently.

I am done in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Jimmy C
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:30 PM

I am a catholic and always have been. I totally condemn the bishops and all others who tried to cover these atrocities up, I believe that the guilty parties have to be punished just like anyone else, but they have to be proven guilty first. I feel an awful lot of anti-catholic feeling here in this thread and wonder where all your anger goes when similar charges are made against the Hare Krishna movement, and religous members of other faiths. I am totally outraged and embarrased by these accusations but I do know many priests who are also outraged by them. In agreement with Annroi's observations it does seem to be open season on christianity and the catholic church in general. One example I can mention happened here in Canada, a few years ago a gang of thugs stormed into a church in Montreal during Mass and wrecked the altar and strew the vessels etc across the altar. Out of 5 national newspapers only one reported this, and that was on the inside pages. I bet if it had have happened to a mosque or synagogue it would have made front page in all of them ( as it should ). Most catholics are deeply hurt by these accustations and will settle for nothing less than full disclosure and appropriate action, however if you want to condemn the whole church for the actions of some priests please be willing to condemn the educational system when it happens in schools, or the entire scouting movement when in happens in a few troops, or the medical profession when it happens between doctors/ dentists etc to patients, or condemn the entire polital process when Clinton committed adultery and tried to cover it up as well. Now he gets a standing ovation at every appearance. I will close in saying that I hope the really guilty parties get what is coming to them, defrocked and jail time., but do not judge the entire orchard on a number of bad apples. Now can we get back to music, please.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Mar 02 - 12:49 AM

As a survivor of rape, I can say I believe it is an act of power. However, I think unnatural repression, i.e. forced lifelong celibacy (talk about a power trip!)can also contribute to such heinous crimes as these.

Michaelr, do please reread my post as Fionn suggested (thanks, Fionn). I was asking Jed to clarify his statement as it sounded to me as though he was implying something negative about gay men. For a fair idea of how I feel on the issue of homosexuality, you might find this thread interesting: Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs?.

The Church's modus operandi has always been to deny and obfuscate. Several years ago I did some research and had an article published about how the Church refuses to open records detailing the estimated millions in Nazi gold it still holds. As far as I know nothing has changed on that accord.

As for the current scandal, it is just another brick in the patriachal wall of the Piscean Age tumbling down. The more people who are free of the tyranny of organised religion the better, imo.

The Church says the Earth is flat;
But I know it is round
For I have seen the Shadow on the Moon,
And, I have more faith in a Shadow
Than in the Church.


- Magellan -

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,Amergin
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 11:57 PM

Sorry, Annraoi, but I fail to see how condemning this is "anti-catholic"....how dare these fecking priests get exposed for pieces of whaleshit that they are....(I apologise to all whaleshits, do not mean to insult you)...how dare the pope mention this abomination in a few measly sentences in a 22 page letter without even fucking once calling it by name....how dare you whitewash this by calling it anti-catholic sentiment.....have you drank to excess, hated anything and everything, stood on the brink of suicide, bubbled for years with anger and shame (in silence), because some fucking creep stuck his pecker up your ass, when you were but a child? scars that none can see are the deepest one can bear...

This has nothing about folk music you say? How many songs are there about rape?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From:
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 10:32 PM

I am Catholic, as are probably a number of people here. It certainly touches us in Ireland, Australia, and the U.S...We are the protectors of traditional music, and when we die some will be lost. It all ties in to me. Some of these cases have not been proven in a court of law because they have not been referred to a court of law; in fact there has been some obstruction of justice in failing to report crimes of this nature. There will be false accusations, increasingly, as vast sums of money are seen. We'll have to deal with them as well as we can....there will be a tension between protecting the victims and trying to avoid false accusations. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. But we have to err in the direction of protecting children. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 09:55 PM

Fionn,
And others. I have always treated this forum as one primarily concerned with Folk Music in all its ramifications. This current anti-Catholic rant has nothing whatever to do with Folk Music. On this ground alone I question its relevance. I would also like to take the opportunity to point out that the vast majority of child abuse cases are perpetrated not by Catholic priests but by close family of the victims, in descending order of magnitude: Grandfather, Father, Uncle.
I hear no loud cries for the demolition of the family nor for the wholesale condemnation of fathers . Grandfathers, uncles. Why is this?
I also question the validity of some of these claims, without, I hasten to add, condoning the abhorrent bahaviour of the guilty - when proven in a court of law! Within the last three weeks, a Catholic priest in Belfast was subjected to a *second* court case concerning his alleged abuse of young boys. He was totally exhonerated on both occasions. There was no outcry at the false charges laid against *him*. The headlines announcng his trial (and presuming his guilt!) were not reflected in equally large headlines proclaiming his innocence!
Accusations (within the last year) of murder against the Christian Brothers in Ireland concerning a young twelve year old in their care led to an enormous outcry and Press - and Public - condemnation of the Order. So loud were the demands that an exhumation order was obtained and a thorough post mortem examination carried out. The conclusion was that the child died from natural causes. I, and countless others, are waiting an apology from the accusers. Suddenly, they are silent ! I ask myself why. Annraoi.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:38 PM

Reminds me of that great scene from Start The Revolution Without Me... But I thought we weren't going to DO the monk and the choirboy any more! (Surrounded by sheep) - How many costumes do you think I can pack?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM

A BBC report on the Pope's recent statement on this is here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1885000/1885380.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Pseudolus
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 10:25 AM

Being a catholic all my life I have met some fine men who were in the priesthood. Men who I would trust to care for my kids. However, I'm certain that some of the parents of these abused kids probably felt the same way. Situations like this make you question everything you believed to be true. It is very sad.

I'm not surprised that some parents allowed their kids to spend night at the rectory. The way some of us (not me particularly but friends of mine) were raised was that it was a special thing and a blessing to have your son choose the priesthood. Many-a-parent has pushed their son to choose the priesthood. To see first hand the life of a priest, in theory, is a good idea if you're considering that choice. For the kids you mentioned, it was the worst idea. I can't imagine allowing a son to stay at a rectory overnight considering all of the things that have happened.

I believe that as a religion, catholicism has it's eyes closed to the real world and it's changes. We have many blind followers that only prepetuate the problem. I would like to say that as big a black eye that this is for the Catholic Church, there are still some fine men and women who show themselves to be leaders every day. Problem is, whether it's an epidemic or not, the folks making the news are the ones creating the stereotype, and it's a strong one.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:57 PM

At last count, there are over one thousand priests who have been accused of pedophilia. This sort of thing is not something most boys or men would talk about. So, it's easy to think it is an epidemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From:
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:33 PM

I think almost every Catholic is furious at the bishops..and the pope. And I keep having other questions..like how many priests with this insanity have asked for help, or asked to be released from their duties....and if they didn't how did they somehow know they would be protected, when if they had run off to Vegas for a weekend with the choir director they would have been defrocked just like that....They must have somehow known they would be sheltered...and if they knew that, it must have been even more extensive a problem than we even now know....because the higherups must have had the same insanity/crimes.

Remember, the Catholic Church is not exactly friendly towards the idea of any sex at all...even (maybe it has changed in recent years, at least lip service)...married...that was begrudgingly accepted and there were still all sorts of conditions on it.. So how in the world can they /we tolerate child abuse???????? There is such a massive disconnect here I can't grasp it...and I disagree that the Catholic church doesn't produce these monsters...I think that somehow they do...

And what about some of these parents????????? Even allowing for excessive trust etc...who is going to allow their sons to spend nights at the rectory, which happened in at least one of the cases....

there are aspects of the Catholic Church that are totally irrational...the stance on birth control never made a bit of sense and condemned children to poverty, women to exhaustion and often death, and men to lives as slave laborers practically.

And apart from the mess the church is in...and obviously needs to clean up from within and have people outside the church making sure they do...it is part of an overall message to others that crimes, or hurting people in the name of religion will not be accepted......

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Desdemona
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:13 PM

Weeeeeeelllll.....Martin Luther DID call for an end to the rampant & perverted abuses of the Church when he nailed his 19 articles to the church door in Wittenberg in 1519, but by all accounts, despite his quite right-minded desire for ecclesiastical reform, he was something of a nutter, citing amongst other things his mano a mano fight with Satan in the privy, with merde as the weapon of choice.....(eeeeewwwww!)!

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:12 PM

Desdemona:

Beauitifully said.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 08:03 PM

Two priests in northern Maine were removed and some of their parishoners are pissed at the BISHOP! They want to sweep it under the rug as they have for years. Didn't Martin Luther stand up to the church and demand an end to the corruption?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 06:59 PM

Annraoi, I have little but contempt for the papacy but there is no vitriol in my pen. (Did you, living in the UK, happen to see that BBC programme by the way? I ask because it featured a number of the catholic faithful who had good reason to be vitriolic but who were fairly restrained and fair about where they directed their contempt.) And what was it in the thread title that made you think there might be some connection with traditional music?

On the power debate I am inclined to go with Amergin. But I can't say my rationale is scientific.

The same argument has been made about rape, and though my own instinct is to think that rape results from failure to control sexual urges, I readily accept that the evidence points to it more often being about power (ie abuse of power). It seems reasonable to extrapolate from rape to child abuse, because in the latter case the abuser is even more likely to be in a position to exert power over the victim - especially if the abuser wields authority vested in him by the catholic, or for that matter any, church.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Desdemona
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 04:16 PM

The bottom line is that it's way past time for the Catholic Church to get a calendar and a clue; the Middle Ages were over a long time ago, and ecclesiastical privilege is no longer an option. The Borgias & Medicis could get away with this kind of shit, but it's 2002 now, and things have changed everywhere except within the Catholic Church.

Until they allow their clergy to have normal, healthy life experiences, they will never attract normal, healthy people (men AND women) to the clergy. So deviant a system can only lead to deviant behaviour, in my opinion. The idea of placing people who are forbidden the ordinary facets of life such as a healthy, mutually consinsual sexual partnership, parenthood, etc., in a position to council real people on anything would be ludicrous if it weren't so disturbing in this day and age.

The fact that the administrative powers-that-be were aware of these situations & not only covered them up but allowed them to continue by reassigning offending priests to places where they could destroy and pollute the lives of new & equally unsuspecting victims is so abhorrent and so far past anything suggested by so weak a term as "criminal" that words actually fail me to adequately express my disgust & loathing for so irredeemably corrupt an organisation.

That a person would so heinously abuse a CHILD whil hypocritically posing as a spiritual guide and leader is beneath contempt. There is no acceptable excuse or apology.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Pseudolus
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 03:34 PM

Priests, Ministers, Pastors, Rabbi et al are by the very nature of their jobs, role models. Kids are taught (I certainly was) that clergy were to be looked up to and trusted. Breaking that trust is one of the most unforgivable of deeds and yet, we are taught to forgive. Now, I'm all for forgiveness but if you know that someone has a problem, and you not only cover it up but allow that person to continue to have direct access to kids, than I say you are as guilty as the person who committed the crime. A child should never have to stuggle between trusting an adult like they've been taught and knowing that what that adult is doing to them is wrong. I understand forgiveness but whoever said we can still forgive them, we'll just forgive them in jail, was absolutely right.

I am a Catholic but I believe that we (catholics) have failed miserably to change with the times. To be a priest in the Catholic religion a man must give up his entire life to the church. A noble thing for sure but realistically, the pool of men willing to do that is getting smaller and smaller. Frankly,I think it's time we give the women in the Catholic religion a chance to turn this thing around.

My wife and I sing in a contemporary praise choir at a local Methodist Church and that is the only place we go to church.....I'm not saying this is the reason but it certainly is a contributer.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 10:27 AM

Amos, forgive me but I seem to recall terms such as "unnatural celibacy" and the like being bandied about.....that kind of says to me rationalisation.....but then that was my take....

When I mentioned power I was not talking about the power of their positions.....I was talking about the power they feel when they see the fright and the shame in their vicitms' eyes.....the power they feel from ruining lives and destroying the souls of children.....for molestation does nothing but...and the only way to keep them from doing it again is to either throw them in prison and toss away the key....or to find something more fitting....like burning them at the stake.....gladly would I light the fires.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:49 AM

nutty - forgiveness for one's sins is NOT a replacement for responsibility for one's actions. In fact, responsibility for one's actions must come first!

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 09:46 AM

kat - we were discussing the deviant behaviour of these sexual predators, not homosexuality. And I doubt that the church will ever recognize the issues that keeps its prospective preists so low in numbers. I don't believe that celebacy (though an issue) is the main problem either ... the church is well out of touch with the modern world (its practices NOT its basic theology). The Flat Earth society is finding its ranks dwindling too.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Hrothgar
Date: 20 Mar 02 - 03:13 AM

Power has a lot to do with it.

On a small scale it's the power given to priests over their parishoners that is abused by the bad. In an ideal world, this power is supposed to be used to keep the weak parishoners on the straight and narrow, and to encourage the strong parishoners to use their strength for good. Fortunately, most priests are either good or, at worst, innocuous. The bad ones are criminals, and so are the members of the organisation who knowingly protect them.

The protectors are the religious descendants of the people who helped large numbers of Nazis to escape after the Second World War - because they were supposed to be anti-Communist.

On a large scale, there is the power over the individual conscience that Rome likes to wield because they have never worked out any other way to keep people true to the faith. I think many Catholics stay in the flock despite this, not because of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:31 PM

Amergin:

If celibacy is offered as an excuse, then bullshit is a fair call. There is no excuse.

Nor is celibacy a core factor in bringing the crap about. But it probably IS something that exacerbates and reinforcers the deeper stuff. Noone (that I have seen) is proposing a rationalization such as the one you dewscribe which would be unthinkably , unspeakably disingenuous and hypocritical.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 11:26 PM

The archdiocese of Santa Fe, which was my hometown long ago, has paid out some $50 million US so far and the sum will grow. Some years ago, before all of this came out, they sold or leased much valuable church property that now bears highly rated hotels and businesses. I guess that they are losing those profits now. Bankruptcy is becoming a real threat.
I wonder how much of a problem there is in continental Europe? Don't hear much about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:49 PM

I'm not big on any organized religeon, if anything, I'm Unitarian, and, I could never stand for the kind of control that most organized religeon churches impose on their "flocks". I am concerned that suddenly thousands of "victims" will come out of nowhere and sue the church for millions of dollars. It could bankrupt the churches. It wouldn't hurt me, but, it would hurt millions who take comfort from their faith. I wonder if they are called "flocks" because they are like sheep when it comes to taking orders from the clergy?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 10:20 PM

sorry, but I feel that to be an excuse for their actions....I can see it now..."Oh, I could not get fucked so I must go stick it up some child's ass." Bullshit....Is celibacy the reason why parents bugger molest their kids? how about neighour kids doing the molesting?

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:16 PM

The distortions of power in th espiritual racket are many. It might help to recall that those whose sins are now in the headlines were themselves so violently abused, whether physically or emotionally, that they were able to fall into such a criminal position. This makes it no less forgiveable, certainly. But these are people whose whole sense of power has been deeply twisted and wrenched into a perversion , which they then perpetuate and dramatize.

I think you'll find that celibacy does contribute some part to the syndrome, if I may use that word, because as an authoritarian enforcement it can easily become aperversion of its own no matter how spiritual it may have seemed at first blush (so to speak). But I don't think it is core.

Rick -- forgive me if I implied I feel otherwise about complancency and collusion on anyone's part in such a sordid tragedy. I think they should all be sold down the river and made to wash cookpots the rest opf their days. I was simply glad to see the ugly business opened up to a little daylight.

Regards,

A

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:01 PM

What has all this vitriol and venom got to do with Traditional Music?
Annraoi

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:39 PM

that is pure and simple bullshit, mary.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From:
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:34 PM

I think ;that is nonsense. It has to do with twisted hormones and twisted thoughts and celibacy in the sense that their terror of normal sex makes other stuff almost OK in comparison. But people who want power don't aspire to buggering helpless boys in the confessional. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:30 PM

crap like this has nothing to do with hormones or celibacy or anything sexual.....it has to do with power.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:05 PM

Point out what you like michaelr, but try reading Kat's post again. More slowly.

In the last hour, BBC TV has broadcast a catholic scandal of horrific proportions. I knew it was coming up and had assumed it was the case that gave rise to this thread. But no, it was a completely different scandal! As usual the arrogance of the seniors, most specifically a Bishop Brendan Comiskey (who is still in post), was breathtaking. And the shattered lives these criminals have left in their wake (at least three of which ended in suicide) was upsetting to behold.

I would urge anyone remotely interested in the catholic church to follow this link to the relevant page on the BBC website. (It's a site that leaves the WP site standing Dicho - and it's their own stuff, not agency copy.*G*)

For anyone who really doesn't want to follow the link, I will just say that the most damning indictment came from a Father Tom Daly who worked in the Vatican's Washington embassy until being shunted out because he wouldn't fall in with the church's cover-up policy. According to Daly the hierarchy was not merely arrogant but actively aggressive, directly and via attorneys, towards victims of abuse and their families.

A Church? It's a ring of paedophiles in extravagant frocks. Daly said that to his own knowledge the pope himself had been briefed on many allegations against clergy in the USA if not elsewhere. One of the victims in the Beeb report is suing the whole damn lot of them, including the pope. More strength to his elbow.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Mar 02 - 01:22 AM

Kat - I hope I'm misreading your post, but I think a lot of people would be dismayed about your reference to gay men. Homosexuality does not equate with pedophilia! These people are perverts, not gays.

Just thought I'd point that out.
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:04 PM

The Washington Post article: porn ring
The Washington Post, a fine newspaper, may not be known to many outside the United States. It carries all of the best editorial cartoons from the top newspapers, news of all kinds, many of the daily and Sunday comics, etc. etc. Use their site search to find things. No registration required. Home page: Post
The New York Times home page: NY Times
The home web sites clickies are to www.washingtonpost.com and www.nytimes.com. Much to enjoy on both.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM

Hi Amos, unfortunately it's difficult for me to think of the Police forces, and Govt. officials, and Children's Aid societies (in Canada) who should have been on the side of the kids, but chose to protect the shamefully guilty for so many years. The perpetrators were driven by hormones, but the rest are always driven by conscious, well thought out decisions. It no longer makes me ill (it used to), it simply makes me have no respect for any and all authority.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:33 PM

Well, it isn't that it just got worse, Mary -- it was worse and to some tiny degree it just got better -- first of all because of the exposure, pardon the term, and second of all because of the busts. I think more people should think about busts and exposure! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:25 PM

That link above is worth following. Click here for an easy way in. Non-USA catters who, like me, are not fully up to speed with what's going on over there might like to avail themselves of the search engine. I entered "bishop" and "priests" with impressive results.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From:
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:46 PM

it just got worse..

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020318/wr_nm/crime_pornography_dc_2&printer=1

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM

That makes a lot of sense, Guest; after all it is patently kinda absurd for a "spiritual" leader to be shielded for the most heinous of fleshly sins, while poppycocking about on issues such as adultery and abstinence. A commitment to sheilding them, I would offer, is tantamount to a commitment to betraying any glimmer of genuine purpose in the institution itself, since what is being so energetically protected is the betrayal of the deepest trust.

Of course this might mean a number of guys in pointy hats end up getting ten to life, but, hey, you take your chances when you opt for a life of crime, no matter how fancifully you pretend it isn't so.

Down deep, even the most violent criminals did what they did believing it was the right choice of the moment, given all factors. The problem was they had no perspective from which to weigh their factors against values or more enduring "truths". This perspective is one of the products of spiritual leadership. When the leaders themselves cannot or will not provide it, it is a clear symptom of deep distress in the premises, practices, and insights of the organization.

'Nuff said.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:24 AM

The only solution is for Catholics to rise up and insist that from here on, the Church does not 'police' its own. 'Render unto Caeser what is Caesar's' is not just about worldly money but about worldly criminality. It is not up to the bishop what's to be done about such 'sins', it is up to prosecutors. And a bishop who seizes such public authority needs to find himself stripped of church authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,DMG at Work
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:16 AM

Whoops, I had decided this thread had about reached the end of its life, so I apologise for sending a blank message and restarting it. But now that I have, one final word from me!

Fionn said each individual Catholic needs to decide what their relationship to the Church is - well fair enough, DmG, but for my money anyone who stays within the fold does so knowing full well what kind of a hierarchy they've got. Since catholics by definition believe in God, why not settle for a relationship with God and let the churh take a back seat?

I agree - that is precisely the sort of decision they may have to make. But many peoples direct experience is more like SINSULLs opening paragraphs. Also, because of the real world we live in, many Catholics' social lives are caught up in this, and leaving the Church could involve, to a greater or lessor extent, cutting themselves off from some long standing friendships when their own local Church may be entirely innocent. It is not easy.

Dicho: I said individual Catholics must decide their relationship with the Church not with God. I reckon I have escaped the Inquistion on this one, but no doubt they can get me for something else!

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: GUEST,DMG at Work
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:00 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 08:26 PM

"each individual Catholic needs to decide..." A millennium ago the Gnostics believed each person had the right to decide and communicate with God without the medium of the Church hierarchy- and they were wiped out for their heresy. But that has nothing to do with the problem of perverts in positions of responsibility, regardless of Church affiliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Catholic Bishop and Priest Scandal
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Mar 02 - 07:53 PM

So maybe this issue is not confined to the catholic, nor even the Christian church. But what is so particularly despicable about the catholic church is that (contrary to what Misophist said in respect of churches in general) it does indeed set its clergy apart.

They are elevated to a supra-human level as agents of Christ, so much so that women are deemed unfit to do the job. (Except that in the face of a desperate shortage of clergy, women are now allowed to ferry the precious flesh around in their handbags and minister it to those who can't make it to mass.)

Most obnoxious of all, the laity of the catholic church is required to disburden its most intimate transgressions to these people, in the sacrament of confession. Truly a pervert's paradise.

It gave the church fantastic leverage in mediaeval times, an effect still in evidence as recently as 20 years ago in some primitively catholic communities, not least in rural Ireland.

Fortunately episodes like the exposure of Bishop Eamonn Casey and the convicting of Father Brendan Smyth have changed all that. (It was procrastination in sending Smyth north to face justice for 30 years of abuse that brought down the Irish government in 1994.)

The other thing that sets the catholic church apart is the truly fantastic efforts it has made to protect the guilty, and even facilitate their abusive behaviour, usually by moving them quietly to new parishes where their perversions are wholly unsuspected.

Witness the case of Dr Ward, the forcibly retired archishop of Cardiff, who appointed a priest in the full knowledge that he was an abuser, and who was himself under police investigation for about a year. In a touching show of loyalty, the pope moved heaven and earth to avoid sacking him.

And Sinsull, the problem is not new. What is new is that people have been brave enough to speak out, and stick to their guns, even in the face of the sactimonious arrogance, indifference and even contempt with which their complaints have been met by the catholic hierarchy.

Thanks largely to that brave few, it has become much easier for others to speak out, and now the floodgates are wide open. In Ireland the catholic church has recently offered to pay out £70m (yes, seventy million pounds!)to victims of abuse and their families. Many families are outraged even by this gesture, because of the strings attached. It is, in efect, a grubby bribe, to keep the whole pile of shit from getting into court. (Does that answer your question gnu?)

each individual Catholic needs to decide what their relationship to the Church is - well fair enough, DmG, but for my money anyone who stays within the fold does so knowing full well what kind of a hierarchy they've got. Since catholics by definition believe in God, why not settle for a relationship with God and let the churh take a back seat?