BS: Does Being Dark Matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM

Hi,

I did intend "thought" and not "though".

I can see as I read it back that for the purposes of fluency "though" would have scanned nicely, but I'm afraid it would have made a nonsense of my post.

For the record, the telescope I refer to represents my own humble but sincere perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 11:20 PM

Azizi - Yes, I can see that it is a very special name. I think Wesley Clark probably got eaten up in the money hunt that has become so important in running for office in America. One has to compromise one's integrity to such an extent to get elected, there doesn't seem to be much left of the candidate once he/she gets elected.

                  There's really something wrong with all of that, and there must be a solution.

                  By the way, I finally figured out what you were trying to say about the text books in Washinton DC.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:39 PM

Just for the heck of it, I decided to google the name Makeda and found out that there is a person by that name who posts on the Daily Kos blog, as per this clip which I didn't open:

"Daily Kos: We're onto something; let's not let it get away from us...by Makeda on Tue Jun 26, 2007 at 09:55:41 PM PDT. [ Parent ] ...... and on to Mark Warner, Wesley Clark, and two governors, Tom Vilsack of Iowa and Bill ..."

-snip-

Sometimes I post links to that political blog with comments I make about political subjects on Mudcat. However, I have never been a member of Daily Kos. But I do lurk there a lot.

I hope the Makeda from Daily Kos wears that name well.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: gnu
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:32 PM

Hehehehehehe.... good oh eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:29 PM

OOPS!

I meant "Democratic" instead of "Femocratic"

Still, having a Femocratic political party might not be a bad idea.

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:25 PM

Riginslinger,
if by your 16 Aug 07 - 05:34 PM comment you are asking which blog did I use the Internet name Makeda*, it was on the old Wesley Clark For President blog. That blog ended abruptly when General Clark withdrew from the 2004 Femocratic primary. I was devastated by Gen. Clark's withdrawal, because I felt {and still feel] that he would have made a great United States president. I was also devastated because I had become a regular poster to that blog, and when that blog closed down, I abruptly lost connection with many people who I had come to know and admire.

Because I was homeless [having faced the dissolution of my "Internet family", and because for some reason I had kept the URL for Mudcat after visiting here one time in 2002, I returned to Mudcat in 2004 and have been here ever since.

Fwiw, the first time I visited Mudcat-thanks to a Mudcat member visiting the website where I provided the content and a friend did the technical Internet thingies, I ddn't "get" what this site was all about. For instance, I was so Internet unsavvy that I didn't know what a "thread" was, and that you had to click on the title to read the discussion.

Times change. And now I even know how to post comments with a change of font. Well...maybe I should say I'm learning how to post comments using another font, since I'm not yet totality confident that I've "got" that process. But at least I'm tryin.


*By the way I pronounce Makeda, mah-KAY-dah.

Part of the reason why I dropped that name and went back to using my "real" name is that it occurred to me that some people might be pronouncing Makeda as make dah.

Besides, I like the sound and the meaning of the name Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 07:48 PM

Yes Azizi, dark matters and you are very visible to me.

Thought * you might fancy a look through a different telescope.
-GUEST,lox

Although I'm aware that there's some psychological or sociological theory that says that a person's perception is colored by her or his self **, one of the things that I like best about Mudcat is that this forum provides opportunities to learn how people from different cultures "live, move, and have their being". I mean, after all, I've got a Sagittarius sun, mercury, and Jupiter, and my moon is in Aquarius. So being interested in different cultures is a core part of my astrological makeup. ***

That said, I still stand by my statement that I shared in the first post of this thread that "Sometimes I reflect on how Mudcat thread conversations would be different if more people of color posted here or if these conversations were taking place on either a majority Black forum or a forum that had many more Black people and other people of color."

Of course, it stands to reason that no two conversations are ever the same regardless of whether they are conducted by the same people-and whether they are held by people from the same racial, ethnic, and cultural background. {And that's why I don't mind threads whose subject is the same as a previously started thread/s. But it's helpful when links to the previous threads are included].

However, I was speculating that if Mudcat were more racially and ethnically diverse, not only might different subjects be introduced, but the conversations about the same subjects might be somewhat or significantly different since more of the participants [hopefully] would include reflections or examples from their varied experiences as people of color.

For instance, it would have been [would be] interesting to see whether and how having more Black people, and/or more other people of color posting on these threads would have impacted the discussion of the thread's topic:

thread.cfm?threadid=103194
USA 'Browning' -- Ethnic Diversity
['nuff said]

thread.cfm?threadid=23200
Jacomo finane? What does that mean?

[It would have been great if some Mardi Gras Indians or some other Black people from New Orleans or elsewhere who know that culture had posted [would post] on that thread]


* perhaps lox meant "though" and not "thought" ??

** or whatever field of study this theory {whose name I can't recall} comes from

*** Here's a link to a wikipedia article on zodiac signs for those who are interested in learning about that subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrological_sign

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:34 PM

"..."Makeda" was the Internet name that I used on another blog when I first started posting online."

                Makes me want to research Azizi.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 04:36 PM

I see exactly what colour people are.

It's impossible not to if you have good eyesight.

It doesn't affect my ability to make a connection with them, and I make my judgements about people based on the content of their character and not their pigmentation.

Yes dark matters. In your model of a universe containing dark and light matter, in which you have defined those terms to mean dark and light skinned people, all matter matters, just as it does in astronomy.

I haven't been to America, but I have spent time in Africa and there is a sparkling universe of dark matter there that filled my every night with warmth, that despite there being no electricity and the dark matter being invisible to the naked eye.

Yes Azizi, dark matters and you are very visible to me.

Thought you might fancy a look through a different telescope.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM

Well, alright, now! Snail is a winner!!!

And-true confession- I really don't think I was Makeda in another life. But "Makeda" was the Internet name that I used on another blog when I first started posting online.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 01:42 PM

Riginslinger

Sorry, I'm drawing a blank

C'mon. It';s not that difficult to find Makeda.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 12:25 PM

"However, I used to be called Makeda."

      "I should also have said that another name for my reincarnated self is Bilqis."


                  Sorry, I'm drawing a blank, but there are a number of things for which I'm not terribly well informed.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:08 AM

Azizi-

Are you sure you do not mean Masaya?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:27 AM

Azizi

Can you guess who I was?

If you had broached a matter
That might the learned please,
You had before the sun had thrown
Our shadows on the ground
Discovered that my thoughts, not it,
Are but a narrow pound.'

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 11:00 PM

I should also have said that another name for my reincarnated self is Bilqis.

[That's another hint to help you figure out who I was}.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:54 PM

True dat. And unfortunately, at least that time, he spoke the truth.

But-just for the record-I am NOT the reincarnated Joseph Goebbels.

However, I used to be called Makeda.

Can you guess who I was?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 10:00 PM

"Here's a new African proverb: "If you repeat something often enough, people will often start repeating it"]."


                            I think Joseph Goebbels said that.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 12:48 PM

when light and dark are the same http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same_color_illusion



our "green earth"
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070715.html



clouds caome out of the sky and just stand there
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap070814.html

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 08:44 AM

Answering the question "Does being dark matter?" necessarily involves layers of interpretations and re-interpretations. It's the short-cuts that often get "us" in trouble, or those we love.

As someone who has moved from rural coastal Maine to three years of Peace Corps work in Ethiopia, to assisting with an overly ambitious inner-city Detroit geography project coordinated by Black high school students, to coordinating an overly ambitious anti-mortgage redlining campaign, I've got lots of experience to process. I may try a few more stories, but the stories are never the full story.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 02:46 AM

I don't know...it seems to have been so put out there by others. But maybe, and if so, it is descpicable...?? And I hope the day will come when everyone is free to think and speak and vote as they please and not having to confirm to stereotypes..and some are not healthy...I love watching Professor Amos on TV hawking his drain cleaners because he is so unsophisticated and just free to be who he is...and the hemorrhoid commercial where the husband is embarrassed about it...where there is no pressure to be anything other than honest and decent. This pressure to conform too much is hurting many many people, especially youth...Michele Obama told them to lay off on that question..that it was confusing the nation's children.   mg

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 02:28 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to keep the italic font function on.

I'm still trying to get the hang of using those change the font function. Hopefully, things won't get worse before they get better.

[it was a matter of the i before the /, instead of after - (a clone)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 02:25 AM

"Is Barak black enough?" What an insulting question to everyone..to all African Americans (even as they are doing the asking often), and especially to biracial or multiracial people -mg


mg, in my opinion, many of the African Americans asking that question-I'm not one, and I don't know any who have- are either minions of a contingent whose aim is to "divide" the Black vote so that they can continue ruling or people who are just echoing what they hear without thinking about what they hear.

[Here's a new African proverb: "If you repeat something often enough, people will often start repeating it"].

Other people can see the benefit in using Black people's internal conflicts about skin color preferences & prejudices to minimize potentially huge Black support for Obama. In his primary races, and if he becomes the Democratic candidate for president, Barak Obama's huge support from Black people is likely to come not only because he's a brotha [I mean Clarence Thomas is a brotha & Condi Rice is a sista, but very few African Americans support them. Obama's support from Black people will come because of his policies and his persona as a likeable, intelligent, strong man. Also, Black people-and I dare say other people- will also consciously or unconsciously take into consideration the persona of his African American wife [who comes across as a African American wife who comes across as intelligent, personable, and strong], and the Kennedyish image of these attractive parents with their attractive young children}.

People familiar with Marcus Garvey's Black activism in the 1920s, may equate the question "Is he a race person?" with today's question "Is he black enough?". However, imo, these questions are not the same.

Garveyites {and others} advocated that all Black should work to change the dire situation experienced by Black people {in particular, but certainly these efforts benefitted others} with regard to political, economic, social, educational, health care, juvenile justice and other conditions. Also "art" was not supposed to be "just for art's sake" {meaning just for aesthetic appreciation or enjoyment}. Instead art was supposed to be a means to help "raise the race".

"Being a "race man" {or "race woman", though you don't find the term "race woman" as much as you find its masculine version} was a descriptor of those Black people who helped raise the race. This referent was used by the individual themselves as well as by others in reference to them. Sometimes "race man" was used pridefully by others, and sometimes not. But it was always used pridefully by those who referred to themselves by that term.

* Probably because of the issues of woman's rights & woman's role, the term "race woman" is not found in print as often as the term "race man".

"Raising The Race" is sometimes used nowadays as the title or theme for professional journals or seminars.
Click here to see a contemporary example of the use of that term:

http://www.blackhistory4schools.com/2007/02/preparing_to_ra.html

However, the term "race man" or "race woman" in the context that it was used during Marcus Garvey's time-is rarely if ever used today by African Americans. Instead some Black Americans use the term "conscious" Black people to describe those people who work for the betterment of the race. Among "conscious" Black people, the referent "negro" [with lower case or upper case first letter] is sometimes also used in print and in verbal conversation to refer to those people who work, speak, or act in such ways that bring harm to Black people as a race.

Imo, the term "afro-centric" as a descriptor of Black people is not the same now-if it ever was the same-as being a "conscious" Black person. A conscious Black person may or may not be afro-centric, in the cultural sense that I and some others use that term. In other words, an "afrocentric" may be a person who loves African drums, African dance, African decor, and other indices of Black culture. That person may or may not consciously be working to raise the race.

For centuries, African Americans have had & continue to have real problems with color consciousness {usually but not always presenting as preferences within the race for light skin rather than dark skin people}. However, some of the most prominent Black leaders have been and continue to be people of mixed race {historically I will cite Frederick Douglass, W.E.B DuBois, and Booker T. Washington.

My point is that Black people didn't ask were these men who had Black/White ancestryreally Black because of their White ancestry. They asked would the positions that these men advocated help to improve the conditions of African Americans as a whole.

I believe that those people who framed the "Is Obama black enough" question want to tap into Black people's unresolved conflict about skin color preference. I think they want to ask us to question whether Obama really African American. But those people who want Black people to argue among themselves about whether Obama's skin color is dark enough forget one thing-or want others to forget-that there are a lots of Black people whose skin is faaar lighter than Obamas. And many of these people have two Black birth parents.

The people-Black, or non-Black who are mouthing this "Is Obama black enough" question want to distract people from considering the positions that Barak Obama is advocating {and I say this as one who has not decided who I will vote for in the Democratic primary}.

Even a few 100 or thousands votes that can be pealed away from Obama will be beneficial to Republicans. And that, my friends, is why this "Is Obama black enough?" question is being asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:41 PM

Yeah, that's for dang sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 11:25 PM

I think we are witnessing the unthinkable now in politics when they are asking "Is Barak black enough?" What an insulting question to everyone..to all African Americans (even as they are doing the asking often), and especially to biracial or multiracial people. He is black enough, he is white enough. Everyone is enough of whatever they are and people should find other things to vote or not vote for him other than that stupid question. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 10:11 PM

Ditto what Little Hawk said. That was a GREAT story, Charley.

Thanks for sharing it!

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 09:11 PM

Little Hawk-

We also did some research on the name "Jabo" and the best we came up with was that it was a nickname indicating the small gulf state town he came from. I never knew that his parents had named him "Willie Paul Nelson" until I saw photocopies of the letters documenting his case.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 08:31 PM

Quite a story, Charlie!

Jabo is an unusual name. The word "jabo" was also a German term for a fighter-bomber type of aircraft, but they would have pronounced it differently...as "yah-bo".

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:40 PM

Here's another long story, and I probably have several more, but this is one I helped research for my father's memorial service, and the story was a surprise to many friends and relations gathered there:

"My name is Stephen Williams and I am a resident of Robinhood (Maine). We pass through communities, look at the old homes and wonder about the lives and events that have unfolded there. I'm going to share one of these events involving Adolph with you.

My grandparents Albert and Bathena Deermont purchased our house in 1929 and became close friends with the Zorach and Ipcar families. My grandparents winter home was deep in the South on the Florida Alabama line in a little town called Chipley. Accompanying them on there summer visits would be a Black American named Willie Paul Campbell, known as Jabo to his friends and family. Now Jabo was a powerful man standing 6 foot 2 and weighing 280 lbs, which was in direct contrast to his gentile manner. Schooled by my grandmother in cooking, he was an excellent chef and helped in the raising of my mother.

A summer morning in our kitchen would find Jabo cooking up eggs and bacon. Several times a week would come the sound of the outside screen door slamming and clink of milk bottles as Adolph made his deliveries. A friendly greeting and a quick word about the day then both would return to their chores.

Neighborhood parties were big events with my Grandmother and Jabo going all out with the fine linens and silverware. Adolph and Jabo were always present during these parties adding their own brand of humor to the mix. Back then, Robinhood residents visited more with their immediate neighbors than we do today. Electricity would not arrive until after the War and the roads were unimproved making a trip to town a major undertaking.

World War 2 arrived and with it the draft. Jabo was inducted by the US Army and after some basic training was sent off to be an Army cook. Now, back in 1941 the American Armed Services were segregated, Blacks being given menial jobs such as cooks, truck driver's and laborers and segregation meant separate companies, messes and barracks.

Time always moves slowly for soldiers stationed far away from friends and family and segregation created few recreational opportunities for black soldiers. One Saturday night a party and dance was being held by another Black company, Jabo and members of his company crashed that party and the resulting riot resulted in Jabo and several members of his company being brought up on charges of "mutiny against colored military police and of assault with intent to murder". The accused were "tried jointly", found guilty and sentenced from 10 to 20 years. Jabo, on the other hand, was implicated as the ringleader and was found guilty of "causing and participating", the sentence handed down was death.

The news of the sentencing traveled fast. In Robinhood, Adolph launched efforts to correct this injustice. Employing friends and contacts including Eleanor Roosevelt, Adolph's and their efforts resulted in President Roosevelt commuting the sentence to a dishonorable discharge and confinement for 25 years. Further efforts after the end of World War 2 resulted in Jabo's early release.

Black Americans saw many injustices during the war years. While asked to lay down their life for their country Black American GI's were denied entrance to railway diners and watched while German POW's were brought in and fed. During the War Years other mutinies by Black sailors and GIs took place with charges and sentencing as unjust as Jabo's. Many a time having a caring and influential white man step forward and speak up were all that separated you from prison and death. In Jabo's case it was Adolph who recognized the injustice and took action.

Jabo returned to my Grandparents and to Robinhood. Time passed, during which my brother and I became the 2nd generation raised under the watchful eyes of Jabo. Morning routines returned with Jabo cooking up eggs and bacon and about that time would come the sound of the screen door slamming, clink of milk bottles and there was Adolph making his deliveries. Greetings would pass, next a word about the day and then each would return to their chores. I watched never aware of the events that had transpired between the two men.

Our family will always be indebted to Adolph for his efforts in helping to return a much loved member to our family.


As a footnote:

One of Eleanor Roosevelt greatest works was her effort to correct the social injustices that existed in this country. Efforts by citizens such as Adolph pointing out the existence of these injustices resulted in President Truman issuing Executive Orders 9980 and 9981, which spelled the beginning of the end of official segregation in government and the armed services.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 05:00 PM

Hand me a drumstick.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:57 PM

or wince at my typos.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:56 PM

LOL Cluin, hopefully I'll never forgot to laugh, despite the teasing.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:52 PM

Well there you go Bee, the social edicts of the dominant culture tend to prevail, even in isolation. And if things get way more foggy, the good red haired people of the Nova Scotia coast can at least consol themselves, that if the fishery further fails, thereby further limiting their access to the vitamin D in their fish oil, they can at least survive quite well by running about in what light remains, nude.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:42 PM

Q: How do you know when a redhead has had an orgasm?

A: She unties you.



Sorry, Metch. I couldn't resist ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bee
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 03:18 PM

By a chance of old and long isolated Irish and Prussian settlement, Metchosin, here on the foggiest (therefore posssibly the safest, UV-wise) coast of Nova Scotia, there live a plethora of redheads. It is possibly as common on this coast, among the old coastal families, as blond hair, though brunettes have the edge. I noticed this after living here a short time, because, as you say, in the general population red hair stands out. But here, and all down the coast to Canso, bullying a red head would get you pounded in a hurry, as there's lots of other redheads to get your back. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Metchosin
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:20 PM

Does dark matter? Well perhaps global warming will settle it all. BG

As I am a member of the most rare, visible minority on earth, I feel I can speak with some authority on a few aspects of this matter too. The minority to which I belong, makes up only 1 to 4 percent of the entire world's population, depending on whose figures you wish to believe.

According to some sources, in a few generations, we will be an even less visible minority, than we are today and we will soon disappear, within the melting pot of human life because of more dominant genes within the world's populations.

I'm a redhead, perceived to be a fairly recent genetic mutation, in the grand scheme of human evolution, according to some current scientific thought. I exist only because of genetic drift.

In northern climates, the very fair skin associated with the mutant gene for red hair was thought to have been an advantage in preventing rickets, due to its ability to produce higher levels of Vitamin D at lower light levels. The fair skin is is also thought to be more adaptable to cold, (yeah, right, LOL). The red hair color was a resultant byproduct of this mutant gene and because this "byproduct" was of no genetic disadvantage, in some areas of world climate, red hair continues to persist.

Whether or not redheads ever existed in prehistory as something that could be considered a distinct racial group or collective is a matter open to speculation.

Myths regarding wild hordes of red headed warriors roaming the Asian steppes and harassing prehistoric Mediterranean cultures exist. Perhaps recent discoveries of occasional prehistoric burial sites on the steppes, with the possibility of genetic testing, now that the mutant red haired gene has been isolated, might eventually prove possible.

Or perhaps the recent scientific speculation that red hair is a remnant gene within the human gene pool courtesy of the Neanderthal, might one day be proved. Or pushing the envelope even further, perhaps I personally owe something to my fellow red headed primate, the orangutan. LOL      

Before you dismiss this as making light of more recent historical persecution of minority groups of humanity for their differences within a dominant culture, based upon ethnicity, skin color or religion, consider this:

As a young child I was bullied and physically harassed, subjected to taunts from my peers and teased by my elders and generally made to feel the outsider, because I was not the norm and this within a population where my coloring was considered more common. I think a lot of red heads can attest to this.

In most cultures and we crop up within all, red heads are and have been subjected to some sort of negative personality stereotyping based their skin and hair coloring.....fiery tempers, etc. etc.

Historically, redheads have been persecuted as witches, burned because of their freckled skin, considered bad luck, subjected to infanticide, portrayed in Christian mythology and western art as cohorts of Satan, in some cultures thought to have been the result of sex during menses and apparently Hitler banned the marriage of two red heads, lest they produce deviant offspring.

Back to global warming….If humanity is eventually doomed to a world of smog and cloud by either our own activities or just a natural cycle of earth's constant climate change, the red haired gene might still prove useful. If changes in the Earth's climate bring about a world of unrelenting, baking sun and continuing thinning ozone, our (the red head's) extreme sensitivity to UV light will eventually also cause our elimination from the human gene pool, where even more protection from the sun is needed. Red could prove the canary in the mine.

So does dark matter? Yes, it could matter a great deal, as far as human survival is concerned and then again, it might not.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 02:22 AM

I think it was the "spaced out", "black hole" sentences that helped me see that your post was at least part snark. Or was it?

Indeed it was, Azizi, and more than partly so. I posted with Star Trek in mind and with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. Just trying to lighten things up a bit... so to speak. :^)

But the "unnoticed or attractive" part of my post were supposed to be punny, too, in that it pertains to dark matter as well as to the subject of this thread. Oh well, you know what they say: if you have to explain the joke...

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:56 AM

See what I mean? Somehow I forgot to take off the italic thingy.

But I got the 100th post so it's all good.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:55 AM

I had to read your post a couple of times before I figured out that your use of dark matter was as noun and not with dark being shorthand for people with dark skin color and matter being a verb that in this context means Is it pertinent, relevant, significant, important, of consequence, or is it inpertinent [?], irrelevant, insignificant, unimprtant, of no consequence {or, should I have said "inconsequential".

I think it was the "spaced out", "black hole" sentences that helped me see that your post was at least part snark. Or was it? If so, it was a good play on words, especially since the title for this thread is a play on words of another Mudcat thread about "outer space".

**

Excuse my experimenting with fonts. Thanks to some instructions like this one that a Mudcat guest & several Mudcat members shared with me, I finally learned how to change the font from one appearance to another.

But I have to keep practicing how to do it or I'll forget the instructions that make it work. I know that eventually using those instructions will become second nature. But now, I have to concentrate on each step and go back a couple of times to try to catch the errors I make before I hit the submit button.

I think there's a lesson in there somewhere about how we can help change the world from a place where certain kinds of differences make a difference to a world where those kinds of differences don't matter at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:45 AM

(chuckle...)

Yeah, I thought of that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: SharonA
Date: 14 Aug 07 - 12:20 AM

Does being dark matter... what? Finish the question!!

Does being dark matter leave you feeling unnoticed? or attractive?

Does it make you feel spaced out?

...or does it make you whole? (black hole)

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Bee
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:34 PM

"Dark matters"...

I spent most of my working life in a predominantly Black community. About half my coworkers were Black, and one of my two bosses was Black, and the atmosphere was usually pretty happy. Thirty years have brought a lot of changes in the way people perceive, but not enough.

Some stories, some changes...

A Black mother noting with exasperation that once again, one of her short children had been placed in the back row in the school class photos: would not happen today.

Going shopping with my conservatively dressed and coiffed Black friend, and having store security follow us in every single shop. Likely still going on, but I hope not.

I remember being shocked when I heard several young Black women discussing some Cuban sailors they'd met the night before, because one said "He was so black he was purple - I wouldn't go out with him." And the others laughed and agreed. But that was thirty years ago, and I don't know a black woman now who would say such a thing.

My coworkers, thirty years ago, wearing their hair natural for the first time since childhood, and finally, twenty years ago, feeling free to do any damn thing they liked with it. But little girls still freaking out when their braids come out in the swimming pool "My mother will kill me!"

Learning how to comb and braid hair as a result of above.

Banks got colour blind. It became much easier for Black families to get loans and mortgages.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 11:23 PM

Thanks, Azizi. Lots of good info there. Like I say, I based my observations simply on what I saw among the people I was around when I was there, and the general political and social talk in informal discussions among us (we did a lot of that). They were a church-based community, doing a lot of useful social work, and they were very idealistic people. I saw no evidence of prejudice among those people or in their dealings with other Cubans of different races.

I heard a lot of talk about gender issues, financial issues, poverty issues, educational and economic issues, political and travel issues, but none about racial issues. People usually talk about whatever it is that they are most concerned about.

The tension between so-called "pure blooded" Spaniards and other Latin Americans has, of course, been a major issue in all the Latin American societies ever since Cortez and Pizzaro landed with their conquistadors and their priests and their torturous religion and their greed for gold...

My own grandfather, a man from Prague, Czechoslovakia, was clearly prejudiced in both a class and racial sense, having come from a time and a class which encouraged that sort of prejudice. He served as a European trade official for decades, dealing with all of Latin America, and while he respected the "pure blooded" Spaniards in the elite (they being the people he normally did his business negotiations with), he made no secret of the fact that he despised mestizos, mulattos, Blacks, Amerindians, and anyone who wasn't solidly "white" as far as he was concerned. He also despised Asians. I have no idea what he thought about Jews, but I have to wonder...

I found my Grandparents' attitudes in this respect extraordinary, but all I could do was shrug...they were in a different mindset, and they were thinking in terms of a bygone era. You could not change their minds about it.

I think my Grandfather would have preferred it if Latin America had all remained under the control of Imperial Spain, Portugal, England, etc...he would not have liked Simon Bolivar's comment. ;-)

I couldn't disagree more with his attitudes, but here's the funny thing....as a person, I'd have to say that he was a very nice, gentle, non-confrontational man, an honest business person in his dealings with others, and basically quite a good man. He simply had no idea that he was prejudiced when it came to all those various groups of people. He thought he was seeing it all as it really was. That's what he had learned from his upper class peer group in Prague and Vienna when he was young, and he went on believing it for his whole life.

Amazing, ain't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 09:58 PM

FYI Little Hawk, and of course for anyone else who is interested, here's a link to http://www.afrocubaweb.com/raceident.htm#cuban%20authors

And here's the introduction to one of that site's pages:

"AfroCubans: Race & Identity in Cuba
There is an increasing focus on race & identity in Cuba, from both within and outside the island. Here we present some resources and references on issues relating to AfroCubans as these are complex and often poorly understood. We will be adding to this and welcome suggestions.

Some observers estimate that over 70% of the Cubans inside Cuba are of African descent. Both the Cuban government and analysts at the US State Department and the CIA agree on a number around 63%. A much smaller percentage of Cubans abroad are of African descent. In Miami, some estimate that over 97% of Cubans are of Spanish origin. At the very least, 85% of them describe themselves as being white in a recent survey. In New Jersey, there are more AfroCubans among the Cuban exiles there.

The very term Spanish Cuban tends to hide the fact that Spaniards themselves have a strong African heritage, the result of being next to North Africa and receiving African culture over the millenia, including the 8 centuries the Moors occupied southern Spain, from 710 AD to 1492 AD. This gives rise to a famous quote from Simon Bolivar, himself a mulatto who was often held in contempt by "pure blooded" Spaniards: "We are no longer European just as Spain is no longer European, because of its African blood, character and institutions."

Cuba also has a Chinese community, centered around Havana's "Barrio Chino."   Many Chinese were brought into Cuba towards the end of the last century as it became more difficult to kidnap and import Africans.

There is a very small, but still surviving Indian community, mostly in Oriente and consisting of Taino people, related to the Taino of Puerto Rico. According to Cuban researchers working over the past 20 years, Native Cubans survived in far greater numbers to a much later date than was commonly accepted: part of the continent wide myth of the "vanishing red man". See Native Cuba.

There is also a Jewish community which has been reconnecting with Jews outside the island."

-snip-


Here is a listing from another section of that site:

What Cubans say:

Flor Amalia Donde Esta Dios? - a play on racism by playwright Amalia
   
Gisela Arandia A Panorama of Afrocuban Culture and History: One Way to Strengthen Nationality. Author Arandia is a researcher on race & identity issues at the UNEAC
   
Miguel Barnet Biography of a Runaway Slave. Author Barnet is head of the Fundacion Ortiz.
   
Ulises Cabrera Independent journalist, writes vehemently against the Cuban government. Blacks and Whites
El Blanco y el Negro

Digna Castañeda Fuertes Between Race and Empire : African-Americans and Cubans Before the Cuban Revolution (1998).   A professor at the University of Havana.
   
Fidel Castro Has discussed the topic on a number of occasions, with increasing frequency and openess.
   
Raúl Castro "Raúl Castro stated that if a person is denied entry to a hotel because he or she is black, then that establishment should be closed, thus applying our laws, even if the installation concerned is a joint venture." -- On Gender and Racial Equality, 3/00

Miguel De La Torre Masking Hispanic Racism: A Cuban Case Study, Journal of Hispanic/Latino Theology,

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 09:13 PM

Any society that obsessively focuses on "race" issues in its news media and its entertainment media gives no one the choice of being color blind....but it gives those on the bottom of the pecking order the least choice of all. No surprise about that! It was ever so.

The only place I've been (so far) where I detected no trace of race prejudice was Cuba, where you have a population that is mostly composed of Latins and Caribbean Blacks, a trace of Amerindians, some Europeans of one sort or another, and a lot of mixed blood people by now. My experience there was limited to the people I was around, of course, so I can't speak for the whole society...I can only say that my impression was that people there were not inclined at all to make race an issue or a problem in their dealings with one another.

They did have gender issues. The women were quite militant in general about combating what they see as the oldtime Latino sexist attitudes on the part of some men toward women. Their revolution greatly encouraged equality of races and genders, and it certainly has had an effect in radicalizing about the last 3 generations of Cuban women to assert themselves.

They did not appear to have race issues. They did not appear to be at all worried about race issues, and that was a good sign as far as I was concerned. It indicates to me that the powerful in that society are not fomenting race issues in any way.

Trinidad was an interesting case also, because it's basically a 3-part society racially: the majority of people are about a 50/50 split between Black and East Indian, while there is a smaller White community mixed in too. It's also a 3-part society religiously, between Hindu/Christian/Muslim...all about equally strong communities. The 3 communities tend to get along well for the most part, but....and this is a BIG but....NOT during political campaigns! At those times the politicians start playing off one group against another and fomenting much bitter division and hostility...and it leads to a certain amount of violent crime, including kidnappings (for hefty ransoms) and murders.

It is strictly the damned politicians in Trinidad who have created the racial problems, as far as I can see, and they did it by raising racial issues frivolously and cynically in order to manipulate voters.

There is a great deal of intermarriage between racial groups in both Cuba and Trinidad...a positive sign of their ability to get along well with one another...if those in power leave them alone to live in peace with one another.

What I am saying, in a roundabout way, is that American politicians, in their efforts to manipulate voters and to attack their opponents, have again and again stirred the pot of resentment and used racial issues to try to discredit one another. They have deliberately poked the hornet's nest and thrown the match in the gasoline, expecting to profit in some way from the ensuing controversy.

In so doing, they have caused a great deal of harm to relations between the races, while pretending to be doing it for the most laudable of reasons...or even while believing they are doing it for the most laudable of reasons. They have helped put salt in old wounds, and caused new wounds that will last for generations.

It's the old "divide and conquer" technique, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:42 PM

It's my view that American society does not give people of color the object to be color blind.

Let me rephrase that sentence so it says what I meant it to say:

It's been my experience that American society does not give people of color the choice of being color blind.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 08:35 PM

GUEST,Sistah SoulJah,

Thanks for visiting Mudcat.

I happen to think that a person's racial group identity is only one facet of who she or he is. But, in my opinion, I strongly believe that a person's racial/ethnic group identity is an important part of there identity-especially in societies which have a history and present day occurances of discrimination and personal fear, distrust, dislike, and/or hatred toward a group of people and groups of people. I believe that such feelings and the actions that result from those feelings are destructive both to the victim group/s and to the group of people doing the victimizing.

In your post, you wrote that you are mixed racial. I believe that in an ideal world, a person's racial and ethnic background would be a value neutral fact. I also think that a person who is mixed race should be able to choose one or the other or both of her or his racial backgrounds. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world.

I'm not sure if you live in the USA or not. It's been my experience that people in the USA rely on visual clues such skin color, hair texture, and facial features including the shape of a person's nose or the slant of a person's eyes, to determine which racial or ethnic group that person belongs to. Given that the American society has a long history of and present day evidences of racism, it is likely that people who look a certain way will be "judged" by others to belong to a certain group.

It's my view that American society does not give people of color the object to be color blind.

In order for people to "be all that we can be" I very much believe that it is important for us to develop & reinforce a positive group identity or identities as well as positive personal identities {for instance being considered a good athlete, or a good singer, and/or a person who is a good student}. It's also important to feel good about other races/ethnicities.

Sister SoulJah, I hope that you join consider joining Mudcat. If you joined this online community, it would be your choice whether you made references to your racial/ethnic background or not.

I hope to "hear" from you again or this Mudcat thread and/or on other threads.

Best wishes,

Ms. Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:46 PM

Being dark has, for perhaps thousands of years, been considered disadvantageous in many cultures...but not all of them.

I think that one of the main reasons for that was the simplest one: rich people tended not to have to work outdoors a lot in the agrarian ages that preceded the industrial revolution, while poor people generally spent their lives working outdoors. Thus rich people tended to stay pale and poor people tended to tan darkly.

Almost everyone would rather look upper class if they can...hence the prevalence of prejudice in favor of lighter skin tones. This was true in Europe, throughout Asia, and in some African cultures too. I'm not sure if it was a factor in the Americas, prior to the arrival of the Whites, but it may have been in some places with more of a "city" culture, as in the case of Aztecs, Mayas, and Incas.

Now, since the industrial revolution occurred, things have changed! Rich people are now MORE likely to get a tan (and to want one) than poorer people, because the poorer people have mostly gone to indoor work and they don't have as much leisure time to get out in the sun.

Thus having a tan is now fashionable. It looks "rich". John Kennedy, for example, looked "rich". Nixon didn't! Nixon was pale, but Kennedy looked like a "bronze god", according to people at the time. Kennedy's healthy and charismatic appearance was the biggest factor in getting him elected over Richard Nixon.

Ironical, isn't it? People are really pretty predictable when it comes to that sort of thing. They always want whatever is rarer and harder to get, whether it be a lighter skin tone or a darker one.

***

I chose not to address racial issues in this post...only skin tone issues. The racial issues are many and complex, and they can change radically as time goes by. Whichever race is "on top" in terms of political and financial power...and that can change...that race is the one that ends up thinking of itself as superior at any given time. Such thinking is illusory, of course, but it's very persuasive in influencing people's view of themselves and others.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: GUEST,Sistah SoulJah
Date: 13 Aug 07 - 07:26 PM

that statement reallymakes u think differently about being of mixed heritage...always made to feel like ur not a whole person being mixed race...in my experience at least.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:28 AM

The best neighbour we have in our street is 'black'. I just think of him as Mike... I note his colour in the same way as I note that one of my best friends here has dark hair and eyes. It's just a way to describe them to another person." -jacqui.c

-snip-

jacqui.c, race as a valueless descriptor is the way that I would love race/ethnicity to be considered now & in the future.

Unfortunately, all people in this nation & throughout the world, and institutions in this nation & throughout the world aren't of the same mind and opinion.

Unfortunately, race does still matter, and in many "incidences" like the Jena 6 or Jena 3 that is reported above, it has little or nothing to do with a person being "quite comfortable in his [or her]own skin" or the fact that Mike's [your Black neighbor's] "colour has never been something that has been raised as an issue".

That said, I appreciate your comments and I'm glad that you have a point of view about race that I wish many others had.

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 07 - 07:15 AM

It appears that "the Jena 6" have beome "the Jena 3", See this article for background:

Tom Mangold in Jena, Louisiana
Sunday May 20, 2007
The Observer

Racism goes on trial again in America's Deep South

"The prosecution of three black Louisiana youths reveals the rise of discrimination by stealth

In the cool and beflagged small courtroom in Jena, Louisiana, three black schoolboys - Robert Bailey, Theodore Shaw and Mychal Bell - are about to go on trial for a playground fight that could see them jailed for between 30 and 50 years.

Jena, about 220 miles north of New Orleans, is a small town of 3,000 people, 85 per cent of whom are white. Tomorrow it will be the focus for a race trial which could put it on the map alongside the bad old names of the Mississippi Burning Sixties such as Selma or Montgomery, Alabama.

Jena is gaining national notoriety as an example of the new 'stealth' racism, showing how lightly sleep the demons of racial prejudice in America's Deep South, even in the year that a black man, Barak Obama, is a serious candidate for the White House.

It began in Jena's high school last August when Kenneth Purvis asked the headteacher if black students could break with a long-held tradition and join the whites who sit under the tree in the school courtyard during breaks. The boy was told that he and his friends could sit where they liked.

The following morning white students had hung three nooses there. 'Bad taste, silly, but just a prank,' was the response of most of Jena's whites.

'To us those nooses meant the KKK [Ku Klux Klan]...

The three white perpetrators of what was seen as a race hate crime were given 'in-school' suspensions (sent to another school for a few days before returning)...

On 30 November, someone tried to burn Jena High to the ground. The crime remains unsolved. That same weekend race fights between teenagers broke out downtown, and on 4 December racial tension boiled over once more in the school. A white student, Justin Barker, was attacked, allegedly by six black students.

The expected charges of assault and battery were not laid, and the six were charged with attempted second-degree murder and conspiracy to commit second-degree murder. They now face a lifetime in jail...

Bail for the impoverished students was set absurdly high, and most have been held in custody. The town's mind seems to be made up.

But now the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People and the American Civil Liberties Union - 'damned outsiders' - have become involved and have begun to recruit, enthuse and empower the local black population. Reporters from the BBC and the New York Times have been drawn to the story..."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2083762,00.html#article_continue

**

Also, see this Mudcat thread thread.cfm?threadid=101905&messages=14 BS: Jena 6 guilty attempted 2nd deg. murder?