BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:21 PM

Larry K,
You're a welcomed breath of fresh air.
Thank you Sir.
(I also really enjoy the pig anaology. Spot on!)

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Nerd
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:16 PM

Hi CarolC, I didn't see your post about the synagogue until after mine. I'll have a look !

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Nerd
Date: 18 May 04 - 01:13 PM

CarolC,

First of all, sorry I didn't add links. The Cat was down while I was typing this, so I couldn't blickify. I just put in the URLs.

It's true that that website I linked to above had a political agenda, as do all people who make public comments about the Middle Eastern situation, including you. I know you like to claim there is such a thing as a "human rights agenda" and that the sites YOU link to are not politically motivated, but I've never bought that particularly. Most of the people who take sides in this issue believe that their own perspective leads to a better human rights situation, including the eretz yisraelis.

In any case, the site was based on the work of Princeton historian Bernard Lewis. His works most relevant to this discussion are not on the web, so I can't link to them, but he is an immensely respected figure in the history of the Middle East, with about fifteen books on the subject. He is fair when it comes to citing both the achievements and the flaws of Arab and Muslim cultures. While he maintains, for example, that Islam preserved classical culture from ruin, and thereby contributed mightily to the modern world, he does not shy away from speaking the truth: historically, Muslims frequently oppressed Jews.

You say that I am going "far back" in history to find examples of this oppression. There is a reason for this. Under colonial rule (Lebanon under England, Libya under England and Italy, Tunisia and Morocco under France, etc.) Jews had a relatively stable existence because they were protected by the colonial power. If we cite post-colonial examples, you say "it's the result of Zionism poisoning the Arabs against Jews" and if we cite pre-colonial examples you say "well, if you want to go back that far in history, everyone is a barbarian."

The fact is that you will find far more testimonials from Jews who say they were oppressed. Even the one testimonial you have produced to the contrary is from Iraq, where as I have pointed out, he would have been doomed to life under Saddam had he stayed. Here are a few counter-testimonials:

Here is an article by a Tunisian Jew at Jimena (Jews Indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa.)

[http://www.jimena-justice.org/faq/memmi.htm]. Some excerpts:

As to the pre-colonial period, the collective memory of Tunisian Jewry leaves no doubt. It is enough to cite a few narratives and tales relating to that period: it was a gloomy one. The Jewish communities lived in the shadow of history, under arbitrary rule and the fear of all-powerful monarchs whose decisions could not be rescinded or even questioned. It can be said that everybody was governed by these absolute rulers: the sultans, beys and deys. But the Jews were at the mercy not only of the monarch but also of the man in the street. My grandfather still wore the obligatory and discriminatory Jewish garb, and in his time every Jew might expect to be hit on the head by any Moslem whom he happened to pass. This pleasant ritual even had a name - the chtaka; and with it went a sacramental formula which I have forgotten. A French orientalist once replied to me at a meeting: "In Islamic lands the Christians were no better off!" This is true - so what? This is a double-edged argument: it signifies, in effect, that no member of a minority lived in peace and dignity in countries with an Arab majority! Yet there was a marked difference all the same: the Christians were, as a rule, foreigners and as such protected by their mother-countries. If a Barbary pirate or an emir wanted to enslave a missionary, he had to take into account the government of the missionary's land of origin - perhaps even the Vatican or the Order of the Knights of Malta. But no one came to the rescue of the Jews, because the Jews were natives and therefore victims of the will of "their" rulers. Never, I repeat, never - with the possible exception of two or three very specific intervals such as the Andalusian, and not even then - did the Jews in Arab lands live in other than a humiliated state, vulnerable and periodically mistreated and murdered, so that they should clearly remember their place.

Another site you can visit is the forgotten refugees site [http://www.forgottenrefugees.org/links.htm], which attempts to collect firsthand accounts by Jews expelled from Islamic countries. There's a recent article posted there from an Egyptian Jew, who writes:

But even as child, I understood that Jews were second-class citizens. Signs in the street read: El yahud kalb el arab, "The Jews are the dogs of the Arabs." At school, my best friend Menyawi turned to me and said with a half-smile, "One day, all the Jews will have their throats slit." An older Muslim man advised that if I was threatened in the streets, I should say: Ana Muslum, M'wahed billah, "I am a Muslim and believe in one God."

Despite the hatred in the air, my family was successful. In 1950, as a teenager, I attended a British prep school in Cairo that boasted prominent alumni such as King Hussein of Jordan and Columbia professor Edward Said (who never writes about how his Jewish classmates were expelled from Egypt). But I never got the chance to graduate.

In 1952, Egypt's new nationalist leader, Gamal Abdel Nasser, began arresting Jews on trumped-up charges and confiscating their property. My uncle and cousin were arrested and a warrant was issued for my father. My family happened to be traveling in Europe, and my father said: "We'll never return." My uncle chose to remain, and, following the 1967 war with Israel, was thrown in an Egyptian concentration camp for three years, along with hundreds of other Egyptian Jews.


This Site, [http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/JewsofLibya/] has interviews with Libyan jews. There, every Jewish businessman by law had to have an Arab "partner" who got at least 51% of the profits. Because the Jew was required by law to make less than 49% of the profits, the Arab "partner" didn't have to do anything! The Jew ran the business, and the partner showed up annually to take half his money! It was a government-sponsored mafia operation that systematically milked only Jews. In fairness, the same interviewer says that he had generally friendly relations with many Arabs, but that the when Libyan government was run by Arabs, the Jews had "no rights."

Anything on the synagogue?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 04 - 12:48 PM

Here's the story about the synagogue, Nerd. I first heard about it on NPR. I remembered or heard incorrectly when I got the impression that the synagogue no longer had a Jewish congregation. It appears to have a very small congregation, and there is a Muslim Iraqi who is the caretaker for the synagogue and who also protects the two old men who live in the synagogue's compound.

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/iraq2003/raz_030522.html

Here's an excerpt:

The center of Jewish culture in Baghdad is the Meir Taweig Synagogue -- the last working Jewish prayer house in Iraq, founded in 1942. Ninety-year-old Tawfiq Sofer, one of two elderly Jews who live in the small rooms adjacent to the complex, is the oldest living link to an ancient Baghdad community. He never married, and his brother and sisters left Iraq in the early 1950s to live in Iran, Israel and England.

Muhammed Jassim, caretaker of the synagogue and protector of the two men who live there, is a Muslim -- but his family has been close to the synagogue's leaders for generations. "It is my duty, because I am faithful to my job -- and all that matters to me is (to) look after their safety and their health," he tells Raz.

During the 20 nights of aerial bombing in March, Muhammed never left the synagogue, and after the fall of Saddam's forces he fired several warning shots from his pistol to keep looters at bay."


Here's some information on the IDF's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields. In the case described in the first link, the Palestinian civilian who was being used as a human shield was killed during the procedure. The link contains a photograph of him being used as a human shield:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/2002/020814.asp

http://www.btselem.org/English/Human_Shield/Timeline_of_Events.asp

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 04 - 12:45 PM

"who is in the best position to end the violence. "

I think that most people can agree that the people in the best postition to end the violence are those who have chosen to be violent. Our disagreement is who that is- I think it is the people blowing up innocent children and civilians. I cannot tell from your posts who you think it is- The Global Ashkenazi economy, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 18 May 04 - 11:14 AM

Carol C.-   When I read your comments about not blaming all the Palestinians for the acts of a the (small, tiny, miniscule, minute, decimal dust) few Palestinan terrorists I saw the light.   Therefore, as a Jew I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for all the Isreali suicide bombers.   Oh- I forgot.   There haven't been any.

Ok- So I would like to apologize for all the Isreali airplane hijackers.   Oh- I forgot.   There haven't been any.

OK- So I would like to apologize for all the Isreali beheadings and rape rooms.   Oh- I forgot.   There haven't been any.

OK- So I would like to apologize for the weapons of mass destruction used by Israel on its own people and and on it's enemies.   Oh- I forgot. Israel has never used a WMD.

I would point out that all of the above have been done by the other countries in the middle east, but you would accuse me of being a racist- so I can't. Oh- I forgot.   You already have.   

So could you please explain how the Goldie Meir quote about loving your own children being more important than hating your enemy makes me a racist.   This may be a first.   A folkie condems me for choosing love and peace over hate and violence.   Congratulations on being a trend setter.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:47 AM

King Abdullah II from Jordan has suggested today, Arafat could do a service to his people by stepping down. I agree.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 04 - 12:18 AM

BTW, here's the title of that article with the interview with Ami Ayalon (in case you don't see what's in the link):

"Former Shin Bet chief urges unconditional withdrawal"

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 04 - 12:02 AM

You often state the IDF", where I beleive you mean "some members of the IDF"

No, I mean the IDF- the organization. I do not believe that all members of the IDF agree with the orders they are given, nor do they all agree with the agendas of their superiors or of their government. In fact I know that some of them don't because I've read what they have to say about it. I also do not think that all members of the IDF have committed attrocities. I've posted these quotes elsewhere in the Mudcat, but I'm putting them here for you:

"IDF Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon: "The government's policy is very harmful. There is no reason to punish the Palestinians indiscriminately."

(Ma'ariv, 29 October 2003)

Maj. Gen. (Res.) Ya'akov Or, Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories from 1997-2001: "The more that the [Palestinians'] distress grows, the more the power of Hamas increases. If the Palestinian public has nothing to lose, we will lose. Rather than go to work, they will prepare explosives and ambushes, and will blow themselves up in Tel-Aviv."

Yediot Aharonot, 13 July 2001

Former Chief of Staff, Lt. Gen. (Res.) Amnon Lipkin-Shahak: "IDF soldiers face hundreds and thousands of people waiting at checkpoints every day… This reality, the intolerable friction between Palestinians and IDF soldiers, creates potential suicide bombers every day."

Ma'ariv, 21 December 2001

IDF report: "Checkpoints in the Occupied Territories do not prevent the entry of terrorists."

Ha'aretz, 2 November 2001

An internal IDF report reveals that the IDF checkpoints in the Occupied Territories do not work from an operational perspective; at the same time, they harm the local population and create unnecessary friction and abuse by the soldiers."

Kol Ha'ir, 2 November 2001

M. L., Staff Sergeant (Res.), Armor Brigade, May 2002: "If a terrorist wants to, he can cross at other points along the road. We do not have enough troops to prevent it. We have implemented a policy that has done nothing to meet security needs and is intended only to make the lives of the civilian population miserable… There were situations in which we stood at the checkpoint for hours and prohibited people from crossing, and then we left, without anybody replacing us. Anybody who wanted to could cross."

Lt. Col. Dov Zadka, head of the Civil Administration, 1998-2002: "I do not like this situation. It encourages large-scale hatred over the long term… Two weeks ago, I saw a father walking with two sacks and carrying a five-year-old boy on his shoulders. Stumbling behind him was the mother with what may have been a newborn infant. It was mid-afternoon and they were walking from the junction to their home. Tell me, how does this help? What good does it do? I can picture my wife walking like that with our daughter, shuffling through the mud. I swear, it gives me the chills."

B'Mahaneh (IDF magazine), 28 December 2001

Lt. Gen. Moshe Ya'alon Chief of Staff: "I fear that even if we win the war, in the end we will not be able to look at ourselves in the mirror. We have a problem. All this fighting is not good for our health, from the perspective of our moral strength. A soldier who is ordered to stand at a checkpoint, where it is easy and tempting to loot does not add to our moral strength."

Yediot Aharonot, 4 July 2003


Here is an interview with Ami Ayalon, who headed the Insraeli Shin Bet (internal security) from 1996 to 2000 during the Prime Ministerships of Benjamin Netanayahu and Ehud Barak.

http://www.ajds.org.au/intifada/ayalon.htm

Here is an excerpt:

"AA: We say the Palestinians behave like "madmen," but it is not madness but a bottomless despair. As long as there was a peace process -- the prospect of an end to the occupation -- Arafat could maneuver, incite or repress violence to better negotiate. When there is no more peace process, the more terrorists one kills the more strength their camp gains.

Yasser Arafat neither prepared nor triggered the Intifada. The explosion was spontaneous, against Israel, as all hope for the end of occupation disappeared, and against the Palestinian authority, its corruption, its impotence. Arafat could not repress it. The peace process is what allowed Arafat to be seen as the head of a national liberation movement rather than a collaborator of Israel. Without it, he can fight neither against the Islamists nor against his own base. The Palestinians would end up hanging him in the public square."


I am not condoning any behavior on the part of any people who kill civilians. I am looking at cause and effect and determining who I think is the most responsible for the ongoing situation, and who is in the best position to end the violence.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 17 May 04 - 07:46 PM

I think Israel is reasonably safe in the long run actually, despite the calls of many Islamic militant groups calling for it's 'extermination'.

One should always keep in mind that a grievant party's initial negotiating position is rarely what they eventually will settle for.

Case in point

Tim Sebastian of the BBC, interviewed Khaled Meshaal, the overall head of Hamas on his Hardtalk programme, recently. The complete transcript is on the other side of this link.
Sebastian is known for not pullimg his punches, irrespective of who is sitting across the table from him.
Here is what he got Meshaal to say:

"I have said what Sheikh Ahmed Yassin has said. You have quoted Sheikh Ahmed Yassin. What he said concerning the withdrawal to the '67 borders. If this happened we might have a truce with Israel. We believe in this in Hamas."

If everybody kept to previous agreements and I mean everybody concerned, one might find that a true peace in the Middle East could actually happen.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 07:35 PM

beardedbruce, when I say the Palestinian Occupied Territories, I mean the pre-1967 borders. And that is what most Palestinians have indicated they are willing to accept.

I know you have stated that you condemn the terrorist killing- but with each breath you reiterate that they have such good reasons.

I can't help but get the impression from statements like this one that you think the lives of innocent Israelis have more value than the lives of innocent Palestinians.

And my main contention all along has been that the policies and the actions of the Israeli government have created exactly the opposite result from the one they say they want. So I would say that a good quote for the Israeli government to hear might be "If it hurts when you do this, DON'T do this"

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 04 - 07:19 PM

thank you for the links- I shall look at them, but I cannot be certain I will agree with them.

Please consider my question, seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 07:08 PM

I'd put that remark about on the same level as Bush's "Bring 'em on!" (the terrorists) quote.

beardedbruce, I would suggest spending some time checking out what the Jewish human rights organizations have to say about what's going on in Israel/Palestine. Here's some links to a few of them:

http://www.btselem.org/index.asp
http://www.nimn.org/
http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html
http://www.refusersolidarity.net
http://www.jppi.org
http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org
http://www.jatonyc.org
www.batshalom.org/english/batshalom/index.html
http://www.ejjp.org

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:55 PM

"there are several condemnations from me about the killing of civilians by Palestinians in various threads in the Mudcat. The difference between my condemnations and many of the condemnations of Palestinians by others here in the Mudcat, yourself included, is the use of the term "the Palsetinians" as opposed to my phrasing, which is "some Palestinians". Just as when I speak of Jewish terrorists, I am speaking of "some Jews" rather than "the Jews". There is a big difference between these things."

I have tried to indicate where I meant the Palestinian Authority, as representing the government of the Palestinians. You often state the IDF", where I beleive you mean "some members of the IDF". I agree that neither of us have been rigorous in this.

A question to consider: are the Palestinian people better off now than before the Intifada started? I beleive that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians have benefited from the conflict- but there are a number of other Arab nations that have. Please consider whether you are making the avaerage Palestinian better or worse off by your comments. I know you have stated that you condemn the terrorist killing- but with each breath you reiterate that they have such good reasons.

I respect your rights to your opinions, and you may choose whatever sources you like to believe. But when you state that you think that the Palestinians are entitled to the POT, when they (the government, the terrorists, and all their schools) have defined that as the ENTIRE MANDATE territory, you are endorsing their extermination of the state of Israel.

If the Israeli governement and people object to this, and react with violent measures, I don't think you can blame them.

A good quote for the Palestinian terrorist organizations to hear might be "If it hurts when you do this, DON'T do this"

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Peace
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:32 PM

Well, back to the title of this thread: Does that remark make Arafat an asshole or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:20 PM

Are ad-hominem attacks the best you can come up with Larry K?

To quote Goldie Meir "there will never be peace until Palestinians love their own children more than they hate Israel"

Or we could rephrase it this way:

"There will never be peace until Israelis love their children more than they covet Palestinian land."

Both sound a little racist though, don't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 06:13 PM

beardedbruce, there are several condemnations from me about the killing of civilians by Palestinians in various threads in the Mudcat. The difference between my condemnations and many of the condemnations of Palestinians by others here in the Mudcat, yourself included, is the use of the term "the Palsetinians" as opposed to my phrasing, which is "some Palestinians". Just as when I speak of Jewish terrorists, I am speaking of "some Jews" rather than "the Jews". There is a big difference between these things.

I have a pretty extensive posting history here in the Mudcat, spanning several years. I don't think it would be productive of me to state all of my positions on every subject in every thread. You are welcome to read my posting history if you like, to see what I have to say on any issue, however, and as I recall, I have invited you to do this already.

Many of the German Jews thought of themselves as just as much German as Jewish too, for all the good it did them. (Ashkenazi means German in Hebrew).

Yes, I know this. It was a no-win situation for the European Jews for sure. Their fellow Europeans saw them as foreigners because of their historical Middle Eastern origins, even though they were as completely European as any other Europeans. The Mizrahi Jews face a similar problem in Israel. They Arabic and because of this, their Jewishness is called into question by the Ashkenazi Jews in Israel. This accounts for the fact that most of the Mizrahim in Israel are so right-wing.

This link: http://www.between-lines.org/archives/2003/feb/Sami_Shalom_Chetrit.htm (Why are Shas and the Mizrahim Supporters of the Right? Interview with Sami Shalom Chetrit) in my 17 May 04 - 12:23 AM post is a discussion of that very issue.

I still think the Jews were better off having left for Israel BEFORE Saddam took over. In retrospect, the Zionists were right.

This may be the case, but it is a separate issue from the issue of why the Mizrahim left their countries of origin.

The website to which you gave a link to support your contention that Jews were discriminated against in the Middle East prior to the 20th century has a very clear political agenda. If you can use a link to a site like that one, then it would be equally reasonable for me to use links to the Electric Intifada website, or to the Palestine Remembered website, which I avoid doing because of questions of political bias. And I suspect that if I did use links to those sites, you would not take them very seriously. But I could be wrong about that.

If we are going to discuss very old history, such as during the time of Muhammad, we also can look at the behavior of Jews in the distant past. There are examples in the old testament and other ancient texts, of Jews committing acts of genocide themselves. Granted, these occurances predate the time of Muhammad by some centuries, but they do indicate that Jews are just as human, and just as prone to all of the behaviors, good and bad, as the rest of humanity.

But the only reason I brought up the issue of the Mizrahim was to answer a question posed by beardedbruce.

I don't know, or really care, what CarolC has been, or claims to have been, reading (websites, no doubt).

I've been reading what I can find of the writings of Mizrahim on this subject on the internet. If they say it on the internet, does it have less validity than if they say it to you? Are you of European descent? Is it possible that they wouldn't say to your face things that some of them might say in writing in an environment like the internet, or to each other?

I am well aware that immigrants, and their second and third generation descendants, who came from the various Arab countries, are *generally* among the most right wing and hawkish of all Israelis. Support for a Palestinian state among this community is very weak.

I refer you to the link I posted earlier in this post. The Mizrahim have some pretty complicated issues to deal with. This is what the person being interviewed in that article, Sami Shalom Chetrit, has to say about it:

"Q: So they never supported the "peace camp" in general and the "Peace Agreement" of Oslo in particular?

A: Let me remind you what such a "Peace Agreement" means: that is, the settled and internationally recognized enslavement of the Palestinians in territorial enclaves with the continuous settlement of Messianic Jewish nationalists who pray to their god of hate and death.

Let's be honest: what will the Mizrahim gain from the Ashkenazi model of "peace" known as Oslo or any other initiative within this framework? Nothing! The Global Ashkenazi economy will flourish; the few industrial enterprises left here will be transferred to the Far East and to Jordan and of course to the '67 Occupied Territories. The Ashkenazi upper tenth will become more and more wealthy, to the point that they will kindly agree to satisfy the basic needs of the Mizrahim and the new comers in the townships and poor neighborhoods, (and even less those of Palestinians) in exchange for social quiet and national loyalty.

Privatization will proceed even faster, education and healthcare will be made conditional to income, and an additional half million slaves [foreign workers] will be imported in order to lower the work conditions of the Mizrahim and Palestinians alike.

Thus, the Mizrahim can only loose from the kind of "peace" which Israel longs for. They will loose not only the faint hope for economic growth in their communities, but mainly they will loose the Palestinian ass which they were so good at kicking, and upon which they constructed their national identity - an identity built upon hating the Palestinians."

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 04 - 04:40 PM

She MAY be wrong in the future- Past performance is the best predictor of human behaviour, but there is always the chance she will realize that her support of terrorists and murderers is causing more suffering to the Palestinian people that the Israelis ever have.

The Palestinian people as a whole have been cruelly mistreated, mostly by their Arab bretheren who kept them in the camps which have breed such a disregard for human life. I have nothing but sympathy for them, but nothing but contempt for those who attack innocent civilians and children, and those who offer them support and encouragement.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 17 May 04 - 04:19 PM

Bearded Bruce: RIGHT ON!   Carol C was wrong in the past.   She is wrong in the present.   She will be wrong in the future.   Responding to her is like arguing with a pig.    You can't win the argument and you only annoy the pig.    Anyone who can't see the difference between homicide bombers whose goal is to kill civilians, and targeted raids on terrorists where bystanders acting as shields also get killed is blind and not worthy of discussion.

We are talking about the same Palestinians that were dancing in the street after 9/11.   To quote Groucho Marx "who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes"

To quote Goldie Meir "there will never be peace until Palestinians love their own children more than they hate Israel"   How true.   Arafat is a terrorist that must be killed.   Note that terrorism is way down in the past few months since the Hamas leaders were killed.   Just the opposite of what everyone predicted.   I do think we need to change their hearts and minds.   We need to change them from beating to non beating.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 17 May 04 - 03:05 PM

From what I've been reading from Arabic Jews, it appears that many of them think of themselves as being just as much Arabic as Jewish. They are saying that prior to the time when the Zionists showed up in their communities, they had a good life. They were an integral part of the fabric of the society in which they lived, and had been for hundreds of years. They say that these circumstances didn't change until the Zionists showed up and started promoting their agenda among the people of the region.

I don't know, or really care, what CarolC has been, or claims to have been, reading (websites, no doubt).

I have been to Israel many times. I know many Israelis -- including any number of Jews from Arab lands -- and I am in daily contact with several.

Like anyone who knows anything about the strains of political thought and the demography of public opinion distribution within Israel, I am well aware that immigrants, and their second and third generation descendants, who came from the various Arab countries, are *generally* among the most right wing and hawkish of all Israelis. Support for a Palestinian state among this community is very weak.
The Likud Party, and several of the religious parties in Sharon's coalition, are overwhelmingly supported by this community. You'd be hard pressed to find significant numbers, if any, from this community who "think of themselves as being just as much Arabic as Jewish."

BTW, support for the Labor Party, and other secular centrist and left wing parties comes primarily from the Ashkenazic (European) community. Support for a Palestinian state among this community is very strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Nerd
Date: 17 May 04 - 02:53 PM

CarolC,

Many of the German Jews thought of themselves as just as much German as Jewish too, for all the good it did them. (Ashkenazi means German in Hebrew).

Even if what you're saying is true, and the Jews were never persecuted in Muslim lands until Zionism (which, by the way, it's not), I still think the Jews were better off having left for Israel BEFORE Saddam took over. In retrospect, the Zionists were right.

There is a good, well-sourced article with references to reputable books here.
It shows that the claims of Jews and Muslims living together in harmony in Arab lands is simply false. It was true in some periods of history, just as German Jews did all right in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. But what CarolC said about Europe is equally true about the Arab world, namely: "there is no doubt that Jews suffered quite a lot of discrimination there over the centuries. I think that's pretty undisputed."

An excerpt:

"It was the Prophet Muhammad himself who attempted to negate the positive titage of the Jew that had been prevalent earlier. According to historian Bernard Lewis, the Prophet Muhammad's original plan had been to induce the Jews to adopt Islam; when Muhammad began his rule at Medina in A.D. 622 he counted few supporters, so he adopted several Jewish practices-including daily prayer facing toward Jerusalem and the fast of Yom Kippur-in the hope of wooing the Jews. But the Jewish community rejected the Prophet Muhammad's religion, preferring to adhere to its own beliefs, whereupon Muhammad subsequently substituted Mecca for Jerusalem, and dropped many of the Jewish practices.

Three years later, Arab hostility against the Jews commenced, when the Meccan army exterminated the Jewish tribe of Quraiza. As a result of the Prophet Muhammad's resentment, the Holy Koran itself contains many of his hostile denunciations of Jews and bitter attacks upon the Jewish tradition, which undoubtedly have colored the beliefs of religious Muslims down to the present.

Omar, the caliph who succeeded Muhammad, delineated in his Charter of Omar the twelve laws under which a dhimmi, or non-Muslim, was allowed to exist as a "nonbeliever" among "believers." The Charter codified the conditions of life for Jews under Islam -- a life which was forfeited if the dhimmi broke this law. Among the restrictions of the Charter: Jews were forbidden to touch the Koran; forced to wear a distinctive (sometimes dark blue or black) habit with sash; compelled to wear a yellow piece of cloth as a badge (blue for Christians); not allowed to perform their religious practices in public; not allowed to own a horse, because horses were deemed noble; not permitted to drink wine in public; and required to bury their dead without letting their grief be heard by the Muslims.

As a grateful payment for being allowed so to live and be "protected," a dhimmi paid a special head tax and a special property tax, the edict for which came directly from the Koran: "Fight against those [Jews and Christians] who believe not in Allah ... until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low."

In addition, Jews faced the danger of incurring the wrath of a Muslim, in which case the Muslim could charge, however falsely, that the Jew had cursed Islam, an accusation against which the Jew could not defend himself Islamic religious law decreed that, although murder of one Muslim by another Muslim was punishable by death, a Muslim who murdered a non-Muslim was given not the death penalty, but only the obligation to pay "blood money" to the family of the slain infidel. Even this punishment was unlikely, however, because the law held the testimony of a Jew or a Christian invalid against a Muslim, and the penalty could only be exacted under improbable conditions-when two Muslims were willing to testify against a brother Muslim for the sake of an infidel."

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 04 - 02:53 PM

CarolC:
"And no violence should be committed against any Jewish people anywhere in the world as a backlash for what Sharon and his government are doing. Period."

But where are your condemnations of Palestinian acts of terror, to match your ones of Israeli acts?

OK, and I will concede that no violence should be committed against ANY people anywhere in the world EXCEPT as backlash to what they, themselves ( as individuals) have done. WHen Israeli troops strap on bombs and blow up birthday parties, with no "target" who has committed a crime, I will condemn it. I will not condemn

I do not claim that either side is faultless. But I have seen NO effort on the part of the Palestinian Authority to make any attempt to even discourage such terrorist actions. At least some of the Israelis are being brought to court, and at least the governemnt is acting as if they disapprove.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 02:31 PM

I'll see what I can find for you, Nerd, about the synagogue.

You are framing all of your assertions about Jews and Iraq, as well as other parts of the Middle East, from the perspective of a "post-establishment of the State of Israel" world. In order to understand the perspective of the Mizrahim, you need to see the Middle East through their eyes, which is to say, "pre-establishment of the State of Israel" (I believe this is well before the days of Saddam). I think it's a big mistake to underestimate the effect that the Nakba and the activities of Zionists in the countries of the Middle East had on the way Jews are perceived there.

From what I've been reading from Arabic Jews, it appears that many of them think of themselves as being just as much Arabic as Jewish. They are saying that prior to the time when the Zionists showed up in their communities, they had a good life. They were an integral part of the fabric of the society in which they lived, and had been for hundreds of years. They say that these circumstances didn't change until the Zionists showed up and started promoting their agenda among the people of the region.

Now, as far as Europe is concerned, there is no doubt that Jews suffered quite a lot of discrimination there over the centuries. I think that's pretty undisputed. So maybe it's not so surprising that Europeans were so quick to turn on them during the Nazi period. This does not prove a thing about how the Jews of the Middle East were perceived by the other peoples of the region. In order to say that what the Europeans thought about Jews also applies to what Middle Easterners thought about Jews, it is nessary to believe that all people who are not Jewish are the same. This is a fallacy.

And the fact that the Mizrahim feel that the European Jews practice a form of racism against them (Ashkenazi anti-Semitic tendencies is a term used in one of the articles I linked to) suggests that anti-Semitic discrimination is more of a European vs/Arab problem than the world against the Jews problem, or at least it was back in the late 1940s.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Nerd
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:41 PM

Hey, CarolC, what evidence can you provide about the lovingly tended synagogue in Iraq? This sounds like a load of horseshit to me. I don't even think a Baptist congregation in Philly would lovingly tend a Methodist church if the Methodists all decided to leave.

The idea that the jews in Arab lands were living a bourgeois existence is not evidence of a culture that loves Jews or where Jews are safe. Let's face it, the Jews in Germany and the urban parts of Poland, Lithuania, etc, were living a happy bourgeois existence, both in big cities and in moderate sized Shtetls, until the 1930s. In a country where you are merely tolerated, this can turn on a dime.

There are countries with state religions, such as the UK, where Jews can feel pretty safe. There are others, like Poland, where things have improved (the current Pope has helped), and others where Jews should feel very precarious. Anyone who thinks there is not a degree of bitter feeling between Jews and Muslims in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, etc, is wearing blinders. Anyone who thinks the Jews cannot be scapegoated there is ignoring history.

Notice how the two brutal executions of innocent American civilians that were videoed and made public were both Jews? Notice how they made Danny Pearl say "I am a Jew" before they killed him? Do you think that is a coincidence? Jews are not everyone's favorite people in Iraq, Jordan and the rest of the Arab world.

The fact that they can find one Iraqi Jew to say "Life under Saddam would have been better than life in Israel" is an example of what I call "freakshow politics." George Bush looks for the one middle class Hispanic family who will benfit from his tax cut, then offers them front-row seats at a big Washington event so he can show them off to the world. Big deal. It's still true that most middle class hispanic families have been buggered by his policies.

Let's out it this way: does anyone here really believe that life for a Mizrahi Jew in an admittedly Ashkenazi-dominated Jewish parliamentary democracy is, on average, more repressive than life for a jew under Saddam Hussein? That would have to stretch the credulity of the most fervent Arab apologist...or is it worse than I thought out there?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:29 PM

Hardly, GUEST, 17 May 04 - 01:08 PM.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:23 PM

That's very interesting, Wolfgang. I never even saw the "Sharon says I'm not in the mood thread". And in the "Sharon is a crook" thread, I posted this:

I must say, I find myself wondering if the timing of this announcement has anything to do with Sharon talking about plans to remove some settlements in Gaza and the West Bank...

...which is a way of saying, "I wonder to what extent these allegations (of being a crook) are politically motivated and not based on reality".

Now, what can we learn from this? Firstly, a scientist like yourself should know better than to make assumptions that are not based on empirical evidence. And secondly, you can't even get it right when you do use the available empirical evidence. Time to retire from the world of science, Wolfgang. Or was Little Hawk telling the truth when he said that you were experiencing synaptic difficulties as a result of seeing a UFO?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:08 PM

Guest, C-Watch,

CarolC is just stating the obvious.

If you attack Sharon and/or Israel, you are a defender of human rights.

If you attack Arafat and/or the Palestinian Authority and/or Hamas, you are an anti-Arab and anti-Molem hate monger.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:06 PM

GUEST, C-watch, there are plenty of times when the government of Israel does things that are just as damaging to the peace process and just as hateful and just as likely to spread hate towards Arabs, Palestinians, and Muslims, and just as likely to cause an increase in terrorism in the Middle East and around the globe as anything Arafat has said or done. But I have NEVER started a thread about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:59 PM

Wolfgang, you misread my suggestion about numbers of links. I was referring only to a maximum of four per point that is being made. So with that reckoning, there could be as many links as the poster might like to include, as long as there are no more than four per point, and they group them so that I know which point they are being used in support of. And as long as the reader understands that I will get to them as time allows. And that's only if he or she wants me to respond to them. If they don't care whether or not I respond to them, I really don't care how many they post.

I don't have anything good to say about Arafat either, Wolfgang, except that he is the person the Palestinians want as their spokesperson. And I also don't have anything good to say about Bush, Blair, Clinton, Netanyahu, and any number of other politicians.

Your cynicism is getting in the way of your objectivity.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:52 PM

My main problem when people start threads like this one...they seem to have only one agenda... to spread hate towards a religious and/or ethnic group.

CarolC's statement is an outright, bold faced lie.

I started this thread and it had nothing to do with spreading hate toward any religious or ethnic group. It had to do with pointing out that one particular leader, Yasser Arafat, was inciting terrorism among his followers.

I have never said anything remotely hateful toward any religious or ethnic group and when CarolC falsely points her finger at me in this manner it says nothing about me and much about her.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:36 PM

ALL of my urls are in support of my staatement that the Palestinian terrorists are killing innocent civilians and children. Why have you NEVER responded to this?

I'm still working on answering the questions and points in your earlier posts. This takes up a lot of my time, and I can't do it all at once.

I would really like to know why you feel that they have the right to kill anyone they like, regardless of the religion they claim, or common humanity? WHY?????????

What makes you think I feel that they have this right? I suggest you read this thread and this thread. You'll need to read them all the way through (or at least all of my posts).

My main problem when people start threads like this one is, A. they only point the finger at Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians, and they completely ignore the contribution the government of Israel makes to the problems in the region, and B. they seem to have only one agenda... to spread hate towards a religious and/or ethnic group. Hate is hate, no matter who it is directed against. Anti-Semitism (against Jewish Semites) is wrong, and anti-Arabism and anti-Muslimism and anti-Palestinianism are equally wrong, and for the same reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 May 04 - 11:57 AM

CarolC:

ALL of my urls are in support of my staatement that the Palestinian terrorists are killing innocent civilians and children. Why have you NEVER responded to this? I would really like to know why you feel that they have the right to kill anyone they like, regardless of the religion they claim, or common humanity? WHY?????????

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 17 May 04 - 10:19 AM

Today's email from Honest Reporting clarifies Arafat's "terrorize you enemy" statement and the reporting that was done on it.
*****
On Saturday, May 15, while Israeli security was tackling 43 separate warnings of impending terror attacks, Yassir Arafat delivered this Koran-inspired statement to Palestinians on national TV:

Find what strength you have to terrorize your enemy and the enemy of God. And if they want peace, then let's have peace.

Arafat's executive order for more Palestinian terror (while peace talks are sidetracked) could not have been clearer. The Associated Press news report, however, used heavy-handed editorializing to soften up his words:

Arafat, whom Israel accuses of supporting militant groups, did not appear to be calling for new attacks on Israel. The passage in the Quran refers to the early Muslims' wars against pagans and is frequently invoked by Islamic leaders today to encourage strength in times of conflict.

AP would have readers believe that Arafat's call to 'terrorize' 'infidel Jews' was merely a metaphorical morale-booster, with no relevance whatsoever to the very real Palestinian terror that has claimed 1,000 Israeli lives in the past three and a half years, blocking any progress toward peaceful resolution.

The LA Times provides the actual source of AP's 'creative reading':

Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat, in a speech delivered at his battered West Bank headquarters and broadcast on Palestinian television, called on his compatriots to 'terrorize your enemy.' Arafat associates swiftly sought to explain the reference as a traditional Koranic verse that did not necessarily constitute a call to arms.

So let's understand the sequence of events: (1) Yassir Arafat calls for Palestinians to expand the bloody terrorism against innocent Israelis, (2) PA officials, concerned for bad press, scurry over to reporters and proffer a creative, 'alternative' understanding of Arafat's incitement, then (3) the world's largest wire agency, the Associated Press, presents the PA apologists' line as the proper way to understand Arafat, despite the fact that it defies literal meaning.

An objective report would have, at the very least, attributed the 'creative reading' to Arafat's 'associates.'

US Secretary of State Powell, for one, did not buy the Arafat apologists' line, immediately delivering this rebuke: "Mr. Arafat continues to make statements like the one he made yesterday about 'let's terrorize the region'...[this] makes it exceptionally difficult to move forward."

Arafat's speech on Saturday recalls a similar one delivered in a Johannesburg mosque in May 1994, when Arafat announced that, despite the Oslo initiative: "The jihad will continue... You have to come to fight and to start the jihad to liberate Jerusalem," and compared the accord with Israel to an ancient truce among Arabs violated shortly after it was signed. After discovering that a tape of the speech found its way into Western hands, Arafat called a press conference to explain that by jihad he had meant a peaceful crusade.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 May 04 - 08:31 AM

Suggestion for an amendment to discussions about Israel/Palestine:

Whenever something bad is said about Arafat, for the sake of balance within two hours something bad has to be added about either Sharon or Bush. McGrath and Carol are in charge of that (look at the Arafat's 300 million thread to see how elegantly Carol has introduced Bush in a thread about Arafat taking international monies for himself). Jack the sailor may stand in for Carol.

There is no equivalent rule when something bad is said about Sharon (see 'Sharon is a crook thread', or 'Sharon says, no I'm not in the mood' thread).

Wolfgang (Thoroughly cynical here)

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 May 04 - 07:52 AM

I applaud Carol's suggestion to limit the number of links per post in Israel/Palestine (perhaps: all politics?) threads to four. That rule could be improved by another rule that nobody may post a new link in another post after having posted four links, unless another poster has posted new links after the initial four links post.

That may put an end to what I once termed link throwing matc(es).

I only ponder why Carol comes up with this good suggestion at this particular moment in time and not some time earlier?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:23 AM

Honest Gentile (?), that's a fabrication and you know it. If you don't know it, it's because you haven't read the contents of the links I've been posting.

The beliefs of the Iraqi Jew that you extensively quote have little currency among the overwhelming members of the Israeli and diaspora communities of Jews who have been forced out of Iraq in the past 56 years.

--Smarty Jones Chomsky

I've been doing a lot of digging around about that. I haven't checked out any of the verifiable assertions in Naeim Giladi's article yet, but I have been checking out what other Mizrahim (Arabic Jews) have to say on the subject. There seems to be a pretty clear consensus among them that they were living in good circumstances in countries like Iraq prior to the influence of Zionism in the region, that Zionism is the cause of the problems that resulted in their having to leave their home countries, and that they are horribly discriminated against by the Ashkenazim in Israel. Here's what some of them have to say about it:


"The Jewish community within Iraq was not Zionist-oriented, as the emissaries soon discovered. As an overwhelmingly bourgeois community, the Iraqi Jews understood the danger that Zionism posed to their political, social and economic status. Those Jews who did leave the country generally settled in Europe, India, Iran and North America - as well as Palestine.

By 1947, however, Iraqi Jews found themselves in an increasingly untenable position. The aggressive activities of the Zionist movement, followed by the birth of Israel, led many Arabs to associate all Jews with Zionism. At the same time, nationalism was on the rise in Iraq, marked by a distinct anti-Zionism."

http://www.dangoor.com/70006.html


"As far as the "pre-Israel" history of Middle Eastern Jews is concerned, Zionists present it as a history of oppression and religious prejudice within the Arab world from time immemorial. After establishing this ludicrous (a)historical fable, Zionists usually move on to stress the (alleged) ideological commitment of Middle Eastern-Jews to Zionism.

Writers with an Arab orientation, on the other hand, tend to present this period somewhat idealistically, as nearly flawless in terms of inter-religious relationships. They therefore conceptualise the (politically engineered) emigration of Middle Eastern Jews as the exclusive end result of Zionist activities and propaganda.

Zionists present this as a component of the "happy ingathering of the exiles." On those rare occasions when they discuss the sharp divisions in Israeli society along ethnic and class lines, their terminology is duplicitous. Thus one finds that Middle Eastern Jews "suffer" from an "inferiority complex" and "culture shock", or that they "came" from "primitive" Arab societies, which thus explains "the gap". In short, Zionists never employ any of the terms needed to account for the Jewish ethnic split, namely: racism, orientalism, oppression, exploitation, internal colonialism and Ashkenazi anti-Semitic tendencies."

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/1998/1948/399_mzrm.htm

"Arye Deri...explicitly said "Zionism brought about the spiritual and cultural extermination of Mizrahi Jewry.""

www.between-lines.org/archives/2003/feb/Sami_Shalom_Chetrit.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:41 PM

Sounds more like it might be Antisthenes

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: Peace
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:15 PM

To GUEST, An Honest Gentile: Diogenes is looking for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST,An honest Gentile
Date: 16 May 04 - 07:25 PM

CarolC; most of your arguments come from this site, and others like it.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 04 - 05:52 PM

(T)he Israeli side agreed to take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against the Palestinian side, against individuals falling under the Palestinian side's authority and against their property.

So when the IDF destroyed the PA security infrastructure, this was their way of honoring their part of the agreement?

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 04 - 05:42 PM

It's pretty difficult for me to look into that many links containing stuff that looks pretty random, and not in support of specific points that you have made.

Please provide a small handful (maybe no more than four) of sources to support your contention that the Palestinians have not prosecuted any of their people for acts of murder and destruction.

The sources I'm most likely to trust on the internet on the subject of the Middle East are the Jewish human rights organizations.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 03:52 PM

I try to read sources with information from both sides, to attempt to figure out what actually happened.

Jews and Arabs are of the same genetic branch of the human race- Both are Semetic. I do not hate anyone for their race- I do, hoever, hate individuals (and the groups that support them) for their own actions.

ANY source on the internet is suspect- there is no error-correction in place. The only way to learn anything as a possible truth is to get as many versions, from as many viewpoints as possible. Then, apply William of Occom's razor, and try to figure out what is real.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 04 - 03:21 PM

GUEST, 16 May 04 - 02:58 PM, your comments are pretty formulaic, and any person with any degree of discernment will be able to see right through them.

beardedbruce, I think you need to vet your sources a little more carefully. For instance, your link from Rense.com is describing a bombing attack by the Israeli government against Palestinians and the reponse from Palestinians to that bombing. Incidently, that bombing was conducted during a self imposed cease-fire on the part of the Palesinian organization, Hamas, during which the Israeli government conducted bombings such as the one mentioned in the link you provided.

Here's another article from Rense.com:

EXCLUSIVE Mexican DoD Acknowledges UFOs In Mexico

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:59 PM

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/UN+General+Assembly+Resolution+181.htm
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/The+Palestinian+National+Charter.htm
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+Process/Agreement+on+Preparatory+Transfer+of+Powers+and+Re.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:58 PM

Carol dislikes Jews. That is clear. She conflates issues to make Palestinians look like angels. She sees nothing wrong with Israelis being killed. Ignore her.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:44 PM

In the provisions on security arrangements of the Interim Agreement, the Palestinian side agreed to take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against the Israeli side, against individuals falling under the Israeli side's authority and against their property, just as the Israeli side agreed to take all measures necessary in order to prevent acts of terrorism, crime and hostilities directed against the Palestinian side, against individuals falling under the Palestinian side's authority and against their property. The two sides also agreed to take legal measures against offenders within their jurisdiction and to prevent incitement against each other by any organizations, groups or individuals within their jurisdiction.

Both sides recognize that it is in their vital interests to combat terrorism and fight violence in accordance with Annex I of the Interim Agreement and the Note for the Record. They also recognize that the struggle against terror and violence must be comprehensive in that it deals with terrorists, the terror support structure, and the environment conducive to the support of terror. It must be continuous and constant over a long-term, in that there can be no pauses in the work against terrorists and their structure. It must be cooperative in that no effort can be fully effective without Israeli-Palestinian cooperation and the continuous exchange of information, concepts, and actions.

Pursuant to the prior agreements, the Palestinian side's implementation of its responsibilities for security, security cooperation, and other issues will be as detailed below during the time periods specified in the attached time line:

A. Security Actions

1. Outlawing and Combating Terrorist Organizations

(a) The Palestinian side will make known its policy of zero tolerance for terror and violence against both sides.



the above is from the 1999 Wye River Memorandum......
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/981024/1998102453.html

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:27 PM

Sorry, I can only remember the video clips I have seen on CNN, Fox, ABC, and NBC.

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:25 PM

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/931014-hamas.htm
http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/whoplo.htm
http://www.focusonjerusalem.com/oslo.html
http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp486.htm
http://www.fateh.net/e_public/constitution.htm
http://www.mideastweb.org/fateh.htm
http://www.netanyahu.org/unbreakofisn.html
http://www.mideastweb.org/oslofailed.htm
http://www.ciaonet.org/isa/ged01/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/972664/posts
http://www.alhewar.com/Clovis67-97.htm
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArtTextOnly.aspx?refid=761566844&print=6
http://www.hanitzotz.com/challenge/65/talk.html
http://www.freeman.org/m_online/feb00/haetzni2.htm
http://www.passia.org/seminars/96/foreign_policy_plo.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1985/AS1.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/History/MidEast/05/may/
http://www.mafhoum.com/press/52P5.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/Israelwire/promises.html
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761566844
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Faisals_Trojan_Horse.asp
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Peace/cove1.html
http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/terrorist-groups-pr.cfm
http://www.middleeastinfo.org/article2822.html

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:09 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/11/mideast/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C95150%2C00.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C59534%2C00.html
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/mideast020507.html
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/5891882.htm?1c
http://www.jewishrichmond.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=62973
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/critiques/Two-Faced_Response_to_Gaza_Bombing.asp
http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0049.htm
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/3495977.htm
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/5891882.htm
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/7570805.htm?1c
http://search.csmonitor.com/durable/1998/11/09/fp6s2-csm.shtml
http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/4101679.htm
http://www.militaryconnections.com/news_story.cfm?textnewsid=506
http://www.vnis.com/story.cfm?textnewsid=570
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?ex=1387861200&en=9d122f762f0fd475&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ArticlePage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article^l1083&enZone=Politics&enVersion=0&
http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ArticlePage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article^l2243&enZone=Diplomacy&enVersion=0&
http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/11/isrl-pa1101.htm
http://www.leftofthemiddle.net/mt/archives/000022.html
http://www.israelinsider.com/views/articles/views_0046.htm
http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/5315270.htm
http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/3798507.htm
http://www.jta.org/page_view_story.asp?intarticleid=13608&intcategoryid=1
http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/2568442.htm
http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1577819
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/3774245.htm?1c
http://www.metimes.com/2K2/issue2002-47/reg/young_victim_of.htm
http://www.rense.com/general46/deadlyisraelbombing.htm
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=37640
http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/6932940.htm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/06/18/israel-incursion.htm
http://vigilant.tv/article/2358
http://www.biblenews1.com/history2/20020618.htm
http://www.jewishsf.com/bk020315/1a.shtml
http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/11/isrpa1121.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1017057/posts
http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins051502.asp
http://www.miami.com/mld/miami/4095045.htm?1c
http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_thwarted_attacks.asp
http://www.jewishsf.com/bk020524/1a.shtml
http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/3798469.htm
http://www.news-star.com/stories/080597/wrld2.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/09/09/mideast.blast/

Subject: RE: BS: Arafat: Terrorize your enemy.
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 04 - 01:22 PM

By the way, beardedbruce, I have not seen you produce one single piece of documentation to support any of your allegations. All you've done is make allegations.

I'm tired. I'll get back to you later today or maybe tomorrow.