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BS: Pope Francis
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: framus Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:08 PM Francis Howerd - Ooooh, errrrrrrrrrrr Missus! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Ed T Date: 15 Mar 13 - 07:06 PM Since Easter is especially important to most Christians and Rcs, it is nice to know the Easter Bunny participated in events around the naming of a new pope. Below are the details (and, for the less-believing,aka the evidence): Easter Bunny was there |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie Date: 15 Mar 13 - 05:59 PM Nice to see Akenaton proving you don't have to be religious to promote bigotry. Again And again And yet decent people buy into the word 'conventional' that he uses. But not in the twisted way he means. Being Gay is conventional you disgusting specimen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:57 PM "Cogito ergo sum" was how Descartes set out his starting assumption. Descartes of course was educated in a Jesuit school... It showed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:22 PM Yeah, Steve, but if you want to have a rational and logical discussion, you can't posit at the beginning that your position is true and the other position false. The rules of logic don't allow it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:17 PM No. I don't agree with that. So might a chocolate teapot in orbit round Mars exist. A sensible conversation will be able to support any assertions made. "God may exist" is an assertion for which no sensible evidence has, thus far, been put forward. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:12 PM Steve Shaw says: A proper conversation must start with the prior assumption that God does not exist. Steve, could we level the playing field a bit? For the sake of fairness, I think we need to change one word in your proposition:
Then, and only then, would discussion be possible. As for your other question: So gay people will always be second class in the Catholic church then. For the foreseeable future, I regret that's probably the case. I and others do what we can to promote a change in attitude toward homosexuality, but it's an uphill climb. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,999 Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:09 PM Will the new greeting for the pontiff be, "Yo, Frankie!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Rog Peek Date: 15 Mar 13 - 04:04 PM Pope getting the bus etc. sort of puts me in mind of Margaret Thatcher with a shopping basket! Hope not. Rog |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:51 PM Perhaps some Jesuit has been messing up your computer, Steve. They're a cunning bunch. A proper conversation must start with the prior assumption that God does not exist. Saying there must be "no prior assumptions", in a world in which the default position is that God exists is no way to start a fair fight. So your prior assumption is fine, unlike an a priori assumption you might disagree with... Any proper discussion has to start from a basis of finding out what you agree about and what you don't and then exploring the differences and the rationale for these. And that's the way Jesuits approach discussions. I should know, since that's where I learnt to try to approach discussions in that way, at school many years ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:15 PM I don't do it on purpose, you know, and I haven't had a drop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:13 PM They won't go conducting homosexual marriages in their own churches, though; and it would be foolhardy for gays to push for that. Once that can of worms is closed, better not to open it again. So gay people will always be second class in the Catholic church then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:09 PM Aaargh again on the italics front. :-( |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Joe Offer Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:09 PM I think that once laws permitting same-sex marriage are enacted, the Catholic Church will drop the issue. They won't go conducting homosexual marriages in their own churches, though; and it would be foolhardy for gays to push for that. Once that can of worms is closed, better not to open it again. I don't think the Catholic Church is far from accepting married priests in the Latin rite. Most of the eastern rites have married priests already. You won't see married nuns and orders of religious men with married members, because celibacy and community living with brothers or sisters are part of who they are. But then I'm a married, male associate member of the Sisters of Mercy - so maybe I'm proof that I'm wrong about that. I think the prohibition against birth control will eventually be dropped, but I don't think you'll ever see abortion approved by the Catholic Church. Ake, you say I'm happy to see secularism flourish. I suspect you're right, but what do you mean by that? If people are "secularist" in their way of thinking, why would I want to see them pressured into belonging to a church they don't believe in? I, as a heterosexual, married person, do not in the least feel that my marriage is threatened by homosexuals who want to get married. And as a believing Catholic, I don't feel threatened by people who choose a more secular line of thinking. What I believe in above all else, is tolerance and fairness and brotherly love. "These people" really don't seem "determined to destroy all (I) believe in." -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:08 PM You seem to have come up against some pretty unusual Jesuits, Steve. I certainly wouldn't count them as "your average Jesuit"! That just isn't how any I've met operate. They'd be delighted to start a discussion from a position of no prior assumptions. I didn't say no prior assumptions. A proper conversation must start with the prior assumption that God does not exist. Saying there must be "no prior assumptions", in a world in which the default position is that God exists is no way to start a fair fight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 03:01 PM So let's see where we are so far. The new Pope loves people. He catches the bus. He talks to people going to work. He does his own washing up. He lives in a little flat. Bless. Now the reality. He is reactionary and authoritarian, elected by unrepresentative old men who are also reactionary and authoritarian. Not elected by the Catholics of the world, and no woman had the slightest say in his election. Yet the main tenets of his papacy, and of all previous papacies, enshrine the fact that women are second-class. They must not be priests. They must not marry priests. They must not use contraception. They must not have abortions. They must remain ignorant and they must regard poverty as a virtue. Don't tell me, please, from the US-centric point of view, that this is not accurate. Most Catholics live in Africa and Latin America where the Church has an iron grip. US citizens can, and do, fight back against this barbarism: there are 30 million lapsed Catholics in the US. It isn't so easy in the third world. Ask the tens of millions of women infected with HIV, or dying after back-street abortions, or living with disease and misery and poverty, courtesy of the Catholic church's ban on condoms and abortion, whether it's easy to demur. Nothing is going to change. His undoubted complicity in the fascist regimes of the 70s and 80s (which has got the Church's spin doctors in apoplectic panic) is almost a red herring, horrid though it is. Finding a cardinal who's squeaky-clean, sexually, financially or politically, would be harder than finding rocking-horse shit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 02:43 PM Get rid of the celibacy rule and start promoting conventional marriage. Weed out the sexual predators. If not, society will turn away.... Ah yes, you're either a sex predator or you're conventionally married. And you talk about my baggage. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 13 - 01:09 PM Get rid of the celibacy rule and start promoting conventional marriage. Weed out the sexual predators. If not, society will turn away....and I dont mean the media driven "liberal" society which is making so much noise, but the great silent socially conservative majority, who are getting angry and fed up with being shit on. Still dont understand your stance Joe, you profess to love your church and your beliefs, yet seem happy to see secularism flourish. These people are determined to destroy all you believe in, why dont you start fighting their agenda? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: akenaton Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:56 PM Steve never leaves his bags at the door, he carts them in, opens them up and discovers they are empty. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:35 PM you dont have to read many of steves posts to know what steves position is - bless him! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Mar 13 - 12:06 PM You seem to have come up against some pretty unusual Jesuits, Steve. I certainly wouldn't count them as "your average Jesuit"! That just isn't how any I've met operate. They'd be delighted to start a discussion from a position of no prior assumptions. Probably prefer it. Of course there might have been a misunderstanding about what your existing views were. If you give the impression you believe in God that'd be a different starting point for a discussion than when it's understood you don't. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:39 AM Well I'm glad you agree. As for Jesuits and Dawkins and what they might be willing to discuss, I think you find that Dawkins will take anyone on about any topic in this field without prejudice. Watch any of the dozens of his online videos and you'll see him listening. I think you'll find that Jesuits, in contrast, will argue only from inside their own ringfence. Tell your average Jesuit that the discussion must be predicated on the non-existence of God and the justifiable debunking of all their "theology", until such times as they can produce evidence, and they'll shut the door on you and most likely pray for you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: TheSnail Date: 15 Mar 13 - 08:05 AM Steve Shaw For an argument to be truly reasoned, both sides have to drop their bags at the door on the way in. Quite right. If you simply declare your position to be "true", all reason is lost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Rog Peek Date: 15 Mar 13 - 06:10 AM Will he order the release of all records apertaining to abuse by the clergy, and the cover up thereof? Should we shoot for bacon? Rog |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Mar 13 - 09:45 PM Frees ill, in theological terms, is not as simple as that, bodad. And I can't imagine a Jesuit being reluctant to carry on a discussion about whether God exists, Steve. That is Rather akin to saying that Richard Dawkins is unwilling to discuss the same topic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: bobad Date: 14 Mar 13 - 09:26 PM "That'd be down to free will. A bit naive of the Dawkinites to assume all the cardinals would do what God wanted them to do." Are you even aware of the consequences of disobeying God? Eternal damnation doesn't even begin to describe it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Steve Shaw Date: 14 Mar 13 - 09:15 PM "I never found Jesuits partiularly amenable to reasoned argument" Is it conceivable that they might have felt that you weren't particularly amenable to reasoned argument? The issue here is the word "reasoned". If the existence of God has to be a given in any discussion, then that argument can't be "reasoned". For an argument to be truly reasoned, both sides have to drop their bags at the door on the way in. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Ed T Date: 14 Mar 13 - 09:09 PM Or, God may not want the vote to look like the decision was too absolute, to avoid the appearance of an absolute power source on Earth? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:57 PM That'd be down to free will. A bit naive of the Dawkinites to assume all the cardinals would do what God wanted them to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: bobad Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:33 PM "If God tells the cardinals whom to vote for then why isn't the Papal vote unanimous?" - The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Ed T Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:25 PM ""I see that Chavez's successor in Venezuela suggests that Chavez up in heaven had a lot to do with the selection..."" Not the first politician to make a "wacky claim". Today, I heard a RC Bishop claim on Radio that it was not the cardinals who actually selected this Pope, but it was God who directly directed them, in one way or another, to make God's choice of the best Pope. What's seems like a "wacky claim" to one person seems to be much like reality to another person :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Mar 13 - 08:22 PM I'm not sure how you set about realising the wealth tied up in a bunch of cathedrals and church vestments, for example, no matter how splendid they might look. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Bill D Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:59 PM 'Spaw! That was a bit...*giggle*...naughty... *chortle* You ought to be |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,Lanfranc yclept Francis Date: 14 Mar 13 - 07:50 PM Good name, otherwise same old same old, with the emphasis on the 'old'! Will he distribute the obscene wealth of the Catholic church to the poor of the world? Will he be instrumental in reversing his church's teaching on contraception, thereby helping to save the world from overpopulation? Will he purge the priesthood of perverts and paedophiles? Will he admit that the myths on which Christianity and Marianism are based are just that? Not a chance!! Alan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:14 PM Francis Ford Popola |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: bobad Date: 14 Mar 13 - 06:07 PM It would have been cooler if he rode on an ass. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Lighter Date: 14 Mar 13 - 05:57 PM I love this guy! According to NPR, right after he blessed the crowd, he brushed off the papal limousine and took the bus back to his hotel. On the way to the Pope Residence or whatever he carried his own bags. That's what I call taking the job seriously. I mean, who wouldn't take the limo, if you were Pope? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,Bill D Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:37 PM *pedant alert* Francis was actually a mule.. *end pedant alert* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Big Al Whittle Date: 14 Mar 13 - 04:08 PM Francis was the donkey, Larry Hagman the soldier, the horse was Mr Ed.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Mar 13 - 02:01 PM "I never found Jesuits partiularly amenable to reasoned argument" Is it conceivable that they might have felt that you weren't particularly amenable to reasoned argument? I've never met a Jesuit who was reluctant to carry on a reasoned argument. It almost defines them. I hoped we'd have a pope choosing Francis for a name. I hope he stays true to it. I see that Chavez's successor in Venezuela suggests that Chavez up in heaven had a lot to do with the selection... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Mrrzy Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:42 PM The funny thing to me is that, as many of you know, my younger son has been called Jesus all the way through high school for looking exactly like pix of the long-blond-hair-and-beard Jesus of Renaissance art... and his middle name is Francis! So now I think he should be called Pope instead... Also, pedantic me, this pontiff isn't Pope Francis the First, he is the first Pope Francis. He won't be Francis "+ Roman Numeral One" till there is a second Francis, to be Francis II. Just like you aren't Senior till you have a Junior. "Do whatever steps you want if You have cleared them with the pontiff Everybody say his own Kyrie eleison Doin' the Vatican Rag!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,sciencegeek Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:19 PM At least this new pope has a track record for advocating for the poor and social justice ( within conservative limits) and at 76 years of age is probably going to "retire" before he hits 90. That will leave the path open for more progressive Cardinals to make the next series of changes that the church needs to make to be relevent. Or else face another scism... how does the "Reformed Catholic Church" sound??? We already have the Orthodox churches left over from the breakup of the Roman Empire. So much for the actual adherance to "catholic"... as in univeral & all embracing. sigh... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,mg Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:08 PM Is it really Francis? Someone pointed out that he said Francisco in some sort of announcement..should we not call him that? I don't know what he really said but shouldn't he be able to use one of his own languages, which I presume are Italian and Spanish? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: eddie1 Date: 14 Mar 13 - 01:03 PM We've already had two "John Paul"s as Pope. The new one, although he is using "Francis" as his official name is actually called "Jorge" or "George" in English. This being so, what odds could I get. betting on the next one being "Pope Ringo"? Eddie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Ed T Date: 14 Mar 13 - 12:42 PM ""could be Francis from the Mr Ed films....?"" I had nothing to do with it:) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Big Al Whittle Date: 14 Mar 13 - 12:30 PM could be Francis from the Mr Ed films....? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge Date: 14 Mar 13 - 12:11 PM I `ad our local Jesuit priest in my cab last night. `e was looking very pleased with `imself, just as if `e`d done a conversion job on those atheists `oo run the betting shop. I said, "Evening Pat, you`re looking chipper. You got yourself a new rosary then?" `e said, " Nutting like that Jim. To be sure we`ve got a new Pope" I said, " I know, I just saw it on the telly. `e must be a tough old bird." `e said, "What makes you say that then, Jim?" I said, "I would`ave thought thirty minutes at Gas Mark 5 would`ave been enough but `e was cooking for over an `our!!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: Bill D Date: 14 Mar 13 - 11:13 AM Some interesting stories at the English version of The Buenos Aires Herald including this from Cardinal Dolan: "The new pope told the 114 cardinals who elected him that he had chosen the name Francis in honour of St. Francis of Assisi, who is known in Catholicism as "the little poor one" because he renounced earthly goods. There had been some speculation that since Bergoglio is a member of the Jesuit religious order, he may have chosen the name in honour of St. Francis Xavier, one of the first Jesuits. "He quickly clarified that," Dolan said." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: The Sandman Date: 14 Mar 13 - 11:05 AM AS LONG AS THEY WERE NOT JEWISH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Francis From: The Sandman Date: 14 Mar 13 - 11:04 AM wasnt there a Francis who was nice to birds , hitler was nice to children |
