BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:52 PM

Stringsinger, I'm afraid we do not understand one another in the least. Never mind. I wrote about one point which I think some of us understood; I could write a lot more, but nobody seems really interested. Whoever thinks he won may buy himself a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:48 PM

Further to my last, I know of no non believer who has ever tried to convert any other person to non belief.

Taking the piss, or making serious points about indoctrination of young and impressionable children, is not by any stretch of the imagination an attempt to convert.

It is expressing an opinion, an essential part of free speech, and it is the right of every human being to do that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:34 PM

""The obsession of both of them is the idea that they have "the Truth", the one vital Truth that saves!, and they must convince everyone of it in order to "save" them from some dire consequences that would follow if they believed the guy on the other side of that metaphorical piece of cloth.

They're both full of it. And full of themselves too.""

It's not often that I see a statement from you which I consider egregious rubbish LH, but this is one such.

The vast majority of Atheists (so called by those of religious bent) never even consider the existence of a Deity and never notice the existence of religion unless it is thrust into their lives by evangelising clowns who raise the subject to attack the non religious, because they are told it is their duty to bring religion to the unbeliever.

Guess what? The unbelievers couldn't give a rustic fuck, as long as the faithful leave them alone, but the bottom line is that the buggers cannot resist the urge to convert others.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 02:13 PM

On the Ted Talk, there was laughter after Dawkin's comment about "militant atheism". The point was missed, when Dawkins said "he was not about to preach atheism. He wanted to assure people that it was not what he was going to do. After the comment about "militant atheism" he said, "But that's putting it too negatively".   This "militant atheism" was more of a joke and taken out of context subverted his real message.

"So according to Stringsinger what Mr. Dawkins preaches is not only a religion but Even Dawkins himself does not really believe it."

This statement is not only untrue but convoluted logic. I have never said that what Mr.
Dawkins preaches is a religion. I never said that Mr. Dawkins preached anything so what
I have said is not only taken out of context but my words have been twisted to win an argument.

Grischka, there is nothing here to win. There is no evidence as a basis for an idea of any god. Making any assertions without scientific evidence is a dangerous practice especially if it's used to attack non-belief.

As to the notion of a cult, non-belief defies any cult like qualities whatever because the main idea is to get people to think for themselves, not follow any doctrine. Dawkins is expressing his own ideas which is mostly about people who are science-deniers. Non-belief is not a cult and it is redundant to say this but non-belief is not belief. A cult
depends on a belief system and if you really know about cults they have the following
characteristics.

1. People are punished when they leave the cult.
2. There is a blind obeisance to leaders. (there is none toward Dawkins especially on my part)
3. Past associations with family members or friends not associated with the cult are cut off.
4. Cult people have to be re-programmed.
5. There is an attempt to exploit or berate people who don't quite go along. (Dawkins doesn't do that).

Hence, non-belief is not a cult nor is Dawkins a cult leader.

As to knowledge of science, there are a great many people in belief and non-belief
systems who don't know science and within the scientific community, there are those
who feel that they don't know about science either because it is constantly being
questioned and notions are changed.

""I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." quote by Richard Feynman might easily apply to science in general since it is in constant motion.
But contemporary scientific evidence is all we have to rely on for real assessments about the world. The rest is conjecture.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:31 PM

Yeah...I'm not too impressed by the door-to-door religious thing either. We certainly agree on that. ;-) The reason militant anti-God-botherers don't go door to door, though, isn't because they're reasonable people. It's because they wouldn't wish to resemble the God-botherers in such an outward fashion by going door-to-door preaching...horrors no!!! They're too "smart" for that. ;-D

Instead, they rave on to whoever they can online, in coffee shops, at the watercooler, on the phone, at the bar, at the party...wherever they happen to get another delicious chance to express their hatred for the very idea of "God" and "religion". They are tiresome bores, and they won't shut up about it.

You're quite right about the pointless attacks made by many religious groups on other religious groups. History is full of the sad tale of that, and it stands right alongside the sad tale of wars fought over national differences, cultural differences, racial differences, language differences, competing trade concerns, competing political theories, etc...

It basically comes down to this: A person with a healthy psychology is interested in people who are different, and wants to hear their ideas and find out more about them. A person with an unhealthy psychology is deeply afraid of people who are different, and wants to either avoid them or somehow eliminate them. Both kinds of people can be found amongst both the religious and the secular people in this world. I try to hang around with the ones who aren't hostile to those who are different...and who are happy to coexist in the presence of those who are different from themselves....and I don't really care if they are secular or religious in their viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 12:58 PM

I suppose I was using a local interpretation of God Botherer. It is largely meant to mean door to door Jesus.

I don't see many door to door anti religion. Come to think about it, neither do I see door to door Islam, Sikh, Hindu, Jews, Hari Krishna or The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Quite a few flavours of Christianity though.... They have septic knuckles and broken fingers around here, mainly for not realising most people will slam the door regardless of whether they put their hand in the frame to prevent you shutting it.

Yeah, quite a few people arent religious. The anti crowd include those who don't tolerate other religions. I note that in Dumbfuckistan, a republican politician has said that he will use his powers to kill off cable stations that run Al Jazeehra and the tea party bigots are telling advertisers that the station is a front for the Taliban. Whilst in Zanzibar, Christians are being acid faced by Muslims for err.. Being Christians?

No, you don't need to look to so called atheists to see who hates religion. Enough in their own pathetic ranks. Not surprising when their main attraction is appealing to ill educated peasants eh?

Life certainly isn't simple. Unless you have a stance and an agenda. Then it's very very simple. Especially for the agenda driven clowns who can't accept that others may not have an agenda. You listening Jerk?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 11:18 AM

The "God Botherers" and the "Anti-God Botherers" are cut out of the same piece of cloth as far as I'm concerned, Musket. They're the same psychological type. They're both annoying, obsessive pests on a personal crusade. ;-) When they hear the word "God", they are drawn to it like a fly to shit, either to attack it or praise it, but without any real thought about it. The thing is, one of them is the front side of that piece of cloth (a loud and tasteless plaid), and the other is the back side of that piece of cloth.

The obsession of both of them is the idea that they have "the Truth", the one vital Truth that saves!, and they must convince everyone of it in order to "save" them from some dire consequences that would follow if they believed the guy on the other side of that metaphorical piece of cloth.

They're both full of it. And full of themselves too.

"God", for such people, is just a word they quickly react to with a standard kneejerk for or against, but with barely the slightest notion what that word might actually mean...suggest...or point to. They think in crude mental symbols...if they think at all...but mostly they just react to the symbol either for or against it, and that isn't really thinking at all. That's just saluting a long established prejudice, over and over again.

What they want is absolute certainty. They will not find it. Life is not that simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 07:35 AM

No issue with you on anything you just posted.

However.

Those caught in the crossfire of "what is an atheist and is it militant?" tend to be those for whom religion is irrelevant as well as those who actively conspire to thwart it's advance.

If a God Botherer knocks on the door of someone offering happy enlightenment and gets told to bugger off or the hounds will be released. .. This is not militant anti religion but a polite wish not to imagine those without faith are interested in it.

Quoting philosophers and debates on what constitutes theism and atheism misses the point. Unless you give religion some thought in the first place and make a subsequent stance, no label applies. I can play a banjo (confession time) and my mate who can't calls me a banjoist. As he can't play one and has never shown interest, could I call him an abanjoist?

It would seem odd. Especially if some ignorant bugger tries saying his lack of interest was down to trauma at some young age. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 06:05 AM

Musket, my "recognition of who is providing abuse" is guided by the flow of the conversation, not based on any aspiration to higher justice. Whenever I can, I avoid such assessments altogether; they may however serve as a hint to all readers. Please consider the matter finished, as far as the past is concerned.

If you ask me whether I wish to support Jack's "agenda", the answer is no, as can easily be seen from my earlier posts.—

Dawkins has frequently been asked whether his busy activities constituted a cult. Of course he denied, but he may not be able to stop it, even if he wanted. Remember that Darwin spoke out clearly against all ideological "Darwinisms" - to no avail. Dawkins would claim the same for himself, but somewhat less credibly, since he is involved in propagandistic activities, feeding on the aura of science. Now if Darwin could not prevent Social/Racial etc. Darwinisms, Dawkins may even less be able to prevent some "Dawkinsisms".

(A video snippet where the "cult" question is asked is mainly interesting for mentioning two German theologians from the first half of the 20th century, Paul Tillich and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, as if they were news - a different topic, though.)

And yes, Dawkins has followers in the traditional sense, persons who hold the belief that his words are based on Science and thus true. I know some of them from personal acquaintance, who would not even read a beginner's introduction to natural sciences. Like the earlier self-styled Darwinists, they project a lot of their own ideas onto their idol. See my post of 11 Sep 13 - 07:30 AM. Whoever wishes to appear as a reasonable atheist, had best not refer to Dawkins as an authority.

Demonizing Dawkins? To avert demons, they must be called by their proper names, which may be "Legion" rather than "Dawkins".

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 05:05 AM

Hi LH. Your list of materialistic and other distractions. Religion should be in the list rather than sitting outside of it. Religion may provide a word called salvation but iTunes provides entertainment, escapism, nostalgia and is just as effective at keeping you a paid up member of the poor and meek. Politics is the art of keeping you there and feeling grateful.

Hey Joe! Common sense debate isn't in the spirit of these threads. Some of us try forming a new Mudcat.org inspired religion (how cool is that? ) and you don't even offer to call bingo for us.   Why would I want to be interested in grown up debate on the subject. (Note grown up and common sense, the temptation to say rational would set me off on my usual tangent. )

LH's list is what is available today. If any of those distractions were available in medieval times, would religion have been so popular? After all, I am typing on my ipad but as a youngster I thought cassette tapes were the height of cool.

By the way. Jerk dug up the hatchet and restarted the name calling not me. I was happy to fly over and buy him a pint, name my kids after him etc but he took the gloves off. Huh! I'm supposed to not turn the other cheek.   Mind you, turning the other cheek can have unintended consequences around sailors.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 03:39 AM

"Religion is a minor force now in the developed world compared to what it used to be..."

And that, I suspect, is what "militant religionists" are so worried about - that combined with the fact that their beliefs are no longer guaranteed automatic respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 02:05 AM

Here's an interesting, respectful atheist-Christian dialogue:
http://www.upworthy.com/a-debate-between-an-atheist-and-a-christian-has-quite-a-surprising-result?g=2

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:39 AM

Everything can be said to brainwash children, Musket, and what is foremost in brainwashing them, as far as I'm concerned is the endless political propaganda foisted on them by governments, political parties, politicians, and the media...oh, and commercial advertising and entertainment, of course, which brainwashes them into buying all kinds of things and living a certain lifestyle!

Most children are far more mesmerized by those 2 huge influences than they are by religion, and give far more attention to those as well. It's primarily adults who are really interested in religion, not children. Serious interest in religion generally arises in the late teens...or considerably later in adulthood, but belief in political and commercial trends is established from a very early age in virtually everyone.

Religion is a minor force now in the developed world compared to what it used to be...but politics and commercialism absolutely dominate present society. So, why are you worrying so much about a mouse, when living in the presence of a hungry tiger and a rogue elephant?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:09 AM

I'm sure he would speak of his "followers" in the twitter sense but even Dawkins would, I presume, not wish to see "follower" described in the belonging sense.

It seems easy, too easy in fact to elevate his stance to that of providing an alternative to religion. I have read some of his books and nowhere did I see evidence for this. As he is a scientist I reckon if he had such a mission, he would give clear evidence to promote it.

Grishka. Abuse may not be clever or pretty, but when given out in equal measure to the general stereotyping abuse hurled at the majority of "religion is to do with others not me" rational people, your recognition of who is providing abuse says much about where you might stand on this debate.

Take Seaman Stains for instance. He seems so fascinated by Dawkins that you wonder what his beef is. If you mention that religions brainwash children he will naturally assume you point your carpet towards Oxford and worship him.

I used to worship his missus though when she was a scantily clad Dr Who assistant back in the 70s.

But that's a different sort of worship to any religious one.

And much more healthy for that matter. .....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 01:04 AM

If I may enter a humorous aside or two at this time...

Musket? You mentioned the phrase "Go and get fucked!" as being a decent riposte or something like that?

Well, the bars all over this nation seem to be filled with lost and frustrated people attempting to do just that, night after night! ;-) Most of them also seem not to succeed at it most of the time. Perhaps this has led to the modern rise in atheism, as these people's faith has been so badly damaged by their most fervent prayers not being answered. ;-D

Meanwhile...

"An argument is a series of logical propositions put forth to make a point and establish that one viewpoint is more credible than another..."

"No, it isn't."

"Yes, it is!"

"I'm sorry, but it most certainly is not."

"It IS!!!"

"No, it isn't!"

"How can you say that?"

"How can I say what?"

"You contradicted what I said!"

"No I didn't."

"YOU DID!!!!!!!!"

(DING!)

"Oh, sorry. Time's up. You have to pay me another 5 pounds if we're going to continue."

"WHAT????????? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!!!!"

"Sorry. I can't argue unless you pay another 5 pounds..."

"I'll be damned if I'll pay you another 5 pounds!"

"dum-de-dum" (humming and looking up at the ceiling)

"Oh, come ON!"

"dum-de-dum"

"Oh...all right! Here's another fiver!" (slams it down on the desk)

"Right then. We were having an argument..."

"No we weren't."

"YES WE WERE!!!!!!"

(and so on)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Sep 13 - 12:38 AM

This is too rich to ignore.


"I still maintain that the labeling of "militant atheism" is a weapon used by religious folk who have little substantive "faith" in their respective religions otherwise they wouldn't be so defensive and use derogatory labels. "

Transcript for Richard Dawkins on militant atheism

http://dotsub.com/view/76cca510-aaf5-47cd-a9cb-c0c3afaa74fe/viewTranscript/eng

"No, what I want to urge upon you -- (Laughter) -- instead what I want to urge upon you is militant atheism." - Richard Dawkins from his TED talk.

Darwin said, "I have never been an atheist in the same sense of denying the existence of a God. I think that generally an 'agnostic' would be the most correct description of my state of mind."

He even became uncharacteristically tetchy with Edward Aveling. Aveling was a militant atheist who failed to persuade Darwin to accept the dedication of his book on atheism.

- Richard Dawkins from his TED talk.

Since Dawkins uses the phrase in public fora, Stringsinger just admitted that Mr. Dawkins is

"religious folk who have little substantive "faith" in their respective religions"

So according to Stringsinger what Mr. Dawkins preaches is not only a religion but Even Dawkins himself does not really believe it.

I'm pretty sure that admission pretty much wipes out every point that Stringsinger has so far tried to make about religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 01:08 PM

See for example Dawkins's most widely publicized homily, ca. 2008, also available on YouTube and directly at TED.

Grishka's accusation that I wanted "to win it" is not true.

All the better; it was an observation rather than an accusation, but I happily take your word to the contrary.

I agree that there are other dangerous ideologies, but this one is sometimes overlooked, hence my warning. My own ideas of rationality and realism are somewhat different. If people wish to discuss Dawkins's video critically, I can elaborate. It does not mention his most controversial theories about the evolution of religion, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 12:48 PM

Grishka is demonising Dawkins. And my short post was a response to one matter, the nonsense of the concept of the militant atheist. Sometimes one has to mention other things in order to make one's point, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 11:40 AM

However Dawkins describes himself, if he does indeed describe himself as a "militant atheist" which I would like to see proven, he is one of the rational outspoken proponents of non-belief and sees no reason why any religious belief should be treated as sacrosanct, which is far more dangerous thing than any ideas that he may have.

There are those who would sit on the fence in intellectual snobbery and refuse to take any position on matters such as these without actually appraising the value of these ideas but resort to ad hominem condemnation of individuals whose ideas they don't like.

Among non-believers, there is no reasonable threat of fanaticism since there is no unifying ideology among them.

As to science, there is no one on Mudcat that has a monopoly on this game. Science is constantly changing as new empiricism replaces the old. Who here has the authority to claim superior knowledge about it?

BTW, this thread is a continuation of one that has thankfully left and the subject matter was not started by me. Note that I used the same title as the other one.

Grishka's accusation that I wanted "to win it" is not true. I really wanted a decent discussion to take place, one where I might learn something. I think what I've learned so far is that legitimate discussions of this nature often turn into "one-up-man-ship" with pretentious erudition replacing honest communication.

I still maintain that the labeling of "militant atheism" is a weapon used by religious folk who have little substantive "faith" in their respective religions otherwise they wouldn't be so defensive and use derogatory labels.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 10:31 AM

Steve, you are talking about half a dozen different issues. If we cannot agree on the sort of people about which we would like to discuss, a discussion is indeed pointless.

My point in my earlier message was that Dawkins (who describes himself as a militant atheist, and asks his followers to do the same) has some traits of an ideologist, and effectively works as a guru or "saint" to many persons who have no inclination to science at all. I think we have to warn against this effect - no matter who is to blame morally -, since it can lead to the worst kind of fanaticism. Note for example that Darwin was and is instrumentalized as a "saint" not only of capitalism, but also of racism. Atheism per se is not the culprit, neither is "anti-proselytism".

Mixing various distinct issues can make for strong polemics, at the expense of strong argument. For example, I fail to see what mentioning intolerant representatives of one philosophy has to do with the justification of any other one.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 08:21 AM

I am not convinced that militant (= fighting, aggressive) atheists do not exist

Hmm. Well, I'm an atheist and I'm often pretty aggressive in condemning some of the things people of faith get up to. Trying to force it down other people's throats (including their own children's, often under the dishonest guise of "religious education") being the most egregious of their sins. Acting as though a world awash with religious symbolism and the tacit acceptance of God's existence should be the default and deserving of our boundless respect. But I'm not militant because I'm an atheist. I honestly don't care what other people choose to believe, and am hardly likely to ever bring it up as a discussion point (I only react to stuff here, never start it). Don T is not an atheist and I'd put him at approximately on the same point on the anti-proselytising scale as meself (sorry, Don). Militant atheist is a very silly expression, and those who persist in employing it deserve all the derision they get.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 07:28 AM

If you cannot educate pork, abusing it is not likely to look any more reasonable. To simply return an abuse is not what I feel to be good style either, particularly if from another thread.

Debate an oxymoron: it is possible to discuss whether it is an oxymoron. I am not convinced that militant (= fighting, aggressive) atheists do not exist, and this thread makes me more inclined to the opposite. If you feel "militant" to mean "fighting without justification", we can decide which definition to use.

(Note that "Ecclesia militans" or "l'Eglise militante" - "the struggling Church" was a traditional proud self-description of Christian institutions "on earth", contrasted to "Ecclesia triumphans" in heaven. Their enemy was Satan, obviously a justified fight. Occasional collateral damage to civilians in his vicinity, such as witches, heretics, etc., could not be avoided.)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,musket being obvious
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:50 AM

Granted. I didn't think you were and I replied generally rather than specifically. I tell Jerk the Sea Cadet to get fucked occasionally but that's because you can't educate pork. He started all this nonsense in order to sneer at non Christians, asserting that yoummust have had some trauma or other in the past, otherwise why wouldn't you have an imaginary friend? By asserting religious tendencies as the norm, he insulted a lot of people.

I just make sure he doesn't forget it, that's all. He is in denial about his earlier stance mind, so there is hope yet. But his earlier nonsense is published now all the same so nobody has to take my interpretation up, judge for themselves.

It is difficult debating an oxymoron and the second post in this thread, from me, points out that you cannot say militant atheist as that would be an assertive phrase and atheist as a term includes the many for whom religion is irrelevant so the word is passive.

You can hate religion, you can be proactive in eradicating it from influencing the rest of us. But as per the analogy further up this thread, don't confuse non smokers with anti smokers. A colleague of mine smokes but has tried and tried to stop. She is an advocate of making them illegal drugs and refers to smoking in the home as child abuse where children happen to live. She isn't a non smoker. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 05:22 AM

The GUEST on 14 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM was I, as you may have guessed. I never call anyone a troll. If I were using that word for everybody with whom I sometimes disagree, it would be a synonym for human being (including myself).

Also, I generally do not wish to comment on the moral quality of posters. (Exceptions are possible, but it takes more for that than found in this thread.) Musket or anybody else, if you feel insulted, I solemnly apologize.

This is Stringsinger's thread, and he wanted a serious discussion (though he hoped to "win" it). The character of this forum implies that many posts are polemic or insincere; reasonable people cannot do any better than either ignore them or only discuss those aspects that are really interesting.

Posters can have a variety of attitudes at their disposal. Sometimes it is not immediately clear in which mode they are, that is why I thought my hint of 13 Sep 13 - 03:30 PM helpful. LH did not protest.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket saying Damn!
Date: 15 Sep 13 - 02:43 AM

Oh dear Guest... I laid that one to see if Jerk the Sea Cadet actually read posts. My theory being he is so up his own arse he wouldn't look a gift horse up the posterior.

You blew it. Ah well...

My definition is irrelevant. It is the over use of the word troll that bemuses me. At the end of the day, all Internet debate on this level is a form of onanism. If anyone takes it more seriously, more fool them. BS stands for wanking if you think about it. Serious stuff is above the line, musically speaking.

achmelvich. A lot of what you say is echoed on half a dozen threads by many people. The common link being an immigrant to the American Deep South who is on some crusade or other taunting anybody intelligent enough to question population control by fairy story. Being a twitcher you are in good company. Some on this thread twitch a bit when posting.

Ok fellow co Messiah. But ask him to dig up a truffle or two to bring with him to flake on a nice pasta in Gorgonzola sauce, a la Sardinian style. Tescos knock out cheap half decent chianti but I suggest a g&t first to numb the taste buds.....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,achmelvich
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 09:21 PM

well, a fairly interesting title for a thread - but not interesting enough to entice me to read more than the last 10 posts. you guys can bicker. i am a socialist and - i suppose- quite a militant atheist. you religious types are just annoying and silly. really, the church of wales has just approved the idea of women bishops - how fascinating. and do you christian types still believe that a disobedient child should be taken to the edge of the village and stoned to death? (deuteronomy) heaven? - a gold see-through hotel where the birds of the air feast on the eyeballs of princes and kings?(revelations) delightful. i am also a birdwatcher but that sounds horrible - still,if that is what you are living your lives for, who am i to mock?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:57 PM

A troll is not simply someone you disagree with. Do take that and put it under your belt. It's quite important. If anyone around here is a troll, it's the kind of person who obsessively starts thread after thread in a futile attempt to rile "atheists". Do you know anyone like that? No names, no pack drill and all that.

Yes, Gino could make the butties. Or bruchetta. Or crostini. I wonder whether he could conjure up the amazing monkfish and king prawn curry I had at Life's A Beach tonight. God I'm happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

Musket, please note that I do not use the word troll - I even violated English language by inventing "troller", to go with individual acts of "trolling". In my opinion, that means "deliberately provoking heated disputes without caring for serious and sound argumentation or one's own reputation". If your definition differs, take the longer version. No insult intended, just a diagnosis.

In fact you may have stepped right into Jack's trap, so that he now scores a point without really deserving it.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 11:29 AM

Snag is, I'm Musket not a troll. Troll is an abusive term applied sometimes to those deserving of the title but mostly as a way of disagreeing with a stance without a decent argument to put forward instead.

I hate to disappoint though so here goes. Go and get fucked. Not nice I know but when you try to be objective and it doesn't work then you take the piss and that doesn't work. No matter what you put or how you put it certain people read what they think not what is written.

Go and get fucked is a decent riposte under such circumstances.

I thought setting up a religion would be good because I would be omnipotent rather than impotent.

Fellow Messiah and associated gnome.

Do you think we should invite Gino, one of my favourite telly chefs to join our cult? He could organise the butties at the next bingo session, I thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 07:33 AM

Gino thingy Italian Chef bloke is in Amalfi on the box as I type this. How do you do it Messiahs?

Yep, saw that. AND I brought back a bottle of Limoncello, which I lugged down 2000 steps from Ravello to Minori. AND I have a bottle of Prosecco. AND a lemon. So Limoncello cocktail, a la Gino, here I come! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 05:44 AM

Musket, as I wrote to Stringsinger, I do not want to be mistaken for anyone else with who happens to agree with me on some particular point.

LH can speak for himself. I can hardly believe that he has told you any news in his post of 13 Sep 13 - 03:17 PM, so he might have mistaken the intention of your "clarifying" message of 13 Sep 13 - 01:22 PM. In fact you seem to confess trolling, as you did before.

I would like to dissuade anyone from posting far below her or his own best intellectual level, but it is not in my power. Trolling means provoking others to do the same, and thus trying to ruin the conversation. Successful trollers will rarely be congratulated by others than themselves and their accomplices.

(To be honest, in spite of the OP's announcement I did not realistically expect this thread to become any better than it turned out, so I cannot be disappointed. Just saying.)

Whereas good jokes and really witty remarks are welcome in most circumstances.

When I feel too lazy to read and think about a problem properly, I just refrain from posting. When I feel like smalltalk or musing, I choose adequate threads. What about creating a thread "My Bad Experiences With Zealots"?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 14 Sep 13 - 02:39 AM

Yeah but I only do it because I'm not intelligent enough to debate at your esteemed level.

Just think. Once you have dissuaded we thickos from posting, you can start agreeing with each other with no contradiction to peg you back.

So with that in mind, here's my word of the week.

Delusion.



LH knows when to ignore me and when to have a chat without any help from others.

I take it the gloves are off then.   Here Jerk! When you say people only pick up on certain words, do you mean they pick up on the bits you are subsequently embarrassed for saying or are you annoyed that what you think is important to debate is ignored by slightly more evolved species?

I might struggle with pronouns but I know how to weave Darwin into God botherer waffle. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 11:30 PM

Musket does not read what you write. He scans for keywords and trots out his preselected reply for that keyword. Same for Shaw, and Stringy. But they are not dogmatic. They are "rational", "free thinkers."

Seems like Musket's latest bugaboo is pronouns! LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:30 PM

LH, Musket is not stupid, he is just prone to trolling when he feels like it. Not always, but often. Best pay no attention. Nobody can be forced to invest energy in careful reading and thinking to his best ability. Sad that interesting threads are being ruined (by the usual suspects, plural), but not ours to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:17 PM

You've clearly been visiting the wrong churches, Musket. They're certainly not all like that. ;-) I avoid places with too many silly little damned rules, religious or otherwise, and I trust you do too.

Meanwhile...

"I've had enough of this!" (storming out)

"No, you haven't!" (spoken from behind desk with the certainty of one who knows)

"Oh, SHUT UP!!!" (angry voice fading down hallway, exit stage left)

***

One thing to bear in mind, though. There are a number of cultures which insist, for instance, that one remove one's footwear before entering any dwelling place. This isn't done for religious reasons, it's done for other reasons. Even if YOU don't normally do that in your own dwelling place, it would be churlish and very impolite not to honour a host's wishes in that or some other regard when one is a guest. Accordingly, I honour the various religious OR cultural formalities when I'm a guest somewhere, and so would any other person who is reasonably sensible. To do so is NOT to surrender your own rights in some way. It's merely good manners. And you'd expect others to honour your rules of normal comportment if they came into your house, wouldn't you? If you don't wish to comply with basic formalities when visiting somewhere, why even visit in the first place?

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 03:14 PM

Hey! Co-inciwhatsit again - Gino thingy Italian Chef bloke is in Amalfi on the box as I type this. How do you do it Messiahs?

Bollocks

DtG etc etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:46 PM

Last week we visited the cathedral in Amalfi. A stern young woman at the entrance insisted that my wife draped her shoulders in a provided scarf ('twas 33 Celsius at the time). The missus is a lady of maturing years and she was hardly dressed to kill.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket clarifying
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 01:22 PM

That isn't argument.

Yes it is

No it isn't , it's contradiction.

Same thing.

No it isn't.

Yeah but LH, isn't it nice when you go fishing, lay a bit of ground bait, drop a maggot or lugworm and wait. Your day wasn't wasted when they start biting.

I suppose you can either use media to form your view or use your own experience. The former is based on a larger sample set and the latter therefore more subjective.

I was in a church the other week, not for a service but in the building and an old biddy shouted at me to take my hat off before both feet were over the threshold.

Three weeks ago, we were guests at a Sikh equivalent of a christening. A bloke put a scarf on my head whether I wanted it or not before I even got to the ruddy threshold.

A few years ago, I was in Dubai during Ramadan. Everybody I was with told me to get some water to stop dehydrating. But I don't wish to appear disrespectful? Why? You're not a Muslim? (Everywhere has places to eat and drink, but behind curtains and blinds so those fasting don't have to watch you and get thirsty...)

Which of the three cults above are portrayed as the most militant?

And then those who exhibit superstition have the gall to ask if rational people have a militant wing...........

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM

"I'm here for an argument." (Monty Python reference)

"No, you're not!"

"Yes, I am!"

"You most certainly are not."

"But I am!"

"No, you're not."

"Now, look here, my good man, I paid for an argument, and that's what I'm going to get!"

"No, you didnt'."

"I DID!!!"

"Did not."

"This is outrageous!"

"No, it isn't."

Etc...etc...etc... Good for light amusement.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 12:25 PM

That is not a good formula for productive organizational meetings.

I seriously doubt whether you'll find any atheists lamenting the lack of available "productive organizational meetings", frankly. I mean, we would have literally nothing to talk about.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket nodding
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 10:22 AM

Yeah, old 'Enry knew how to deal with Papist heretics!

Reformation of the church. Got a nice ring to it wouldn't you say? Reformation was more difficult in Tudor ties though, no bulldozers or Ruston Bucyrus wrecking balls. In fact the only sound of balls was, perchance, the sound of medieval gnomes running round shouting Bollocks!

Talking of old buildings, I mentioned to my lad that we will be visiting friends in Canada early next year, he pointed out that my house is older than Canada. Now... I know The Rockies are young, by mountain standards but makes you think, doesn't it? I was skiing at Panorama the other year and I can tell you, the whole resort turned up one day on the back of big trucks....

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 08:30 AM

No problems Messiah S - It is pretty flat. Henry VIII saw to that. Probably very forward sighted of him...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,KEMAT
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 04:19 AM

Whalley Abbey is a picturesque ruin & well worth a visit, along with the nearby gatehouse - railway fans will love the viaduct, whilst the tea room provides at atmospheric setting for all manner of refreshment.

Less well known is that the bulk of the medieval choir stalls (c. 1430) ended up in the parish church of St. Mary and All Saints where they remain to this day looking as fresh as the day they were carved. These are the work of one Mr Eatough (how rare it is that the name of the sculptors come down to us) and represent some of the finest misericords in the country, with all manner of the didactic scenes - folklore fans will love the 'Green Men' as well as the vivid scenes of medieval vernacular life & comedic depictions of domestic strife. Unique to Whalley is an early English proverb concerning the shoeing of the goose; the image is found elsewhere (i.e. York Minster on a column capital) but never with the text which makes the Whalley carving so fascinating.

Problem is, Whalley Parish Church is only open for two hours each weekend, making visiting hardly convenient - but it's well worth narrowing your window for.

Foliate Head, Whalley Parish Church, c. 1430

Other Whalley Abbey misericords can be found in Blackburn Cathedral and Cliviger. In Blackburn is Mr Eatough's remarkable depiction of The Fall, though they haven't survived as well as those at Whalley.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:41 AM

Interesting how one can talk about "them" "they" etc for dozens of withering posts on various threads then have the bare arsed cheek to say there is no such thing.

Interestingly you are right. Lots of people had to spell it out to you though before it became your own stance at last. Must have been that barbecued donkey on the road to Damascus.

Whalley Abbey is worth a punt if you are in the area. The annual haj to Knott End may be a good diversion en route. As someone who comes from Creswell originally, I would ask you to ensure your satnav gets specific instructions as Whalley Common near my family tree fodder is about 120 miles out. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 13 Sep 13 - 02:04 AM

Dunno about Germany but the BMA polled doctors in The UK a few years ago as part of a paper published in The BMJ. My Athens account is down otherwise I would have the reference to hand.

Back then circa 2004, with over 3000 replies to the poll it extrapolated to 0.04 or 0.05% of doctors. It will have fallen too. I work alongside doctors and am married to one. A large number of of our friends are doctors. I don't know a single one who smokes. Nurses are a different situation mind. ....

Back in the 60s my Dad's GP advised him to stop smoking. I'll stop when you stop said my Dad. They both died of lung cancer in the mid 70s.

Smoking cessation was my pet subject when chairing a PCT (health authority in Blair Speke) and out of over 20000 doctors I doubt you would need to take your shoes and socks off to carry on counting the number of smokers here.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:51 PM

Grats on 100 posts Stringy!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 08:49 PM

There is no unified "militant atheist" organization.   None of you pay any attention to what anyone else says except to try to one up the other person. That is not a good formula for productive organizational meetings.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 07:47 PM

Nah then, el Gnomo, in spite of doing The Three Fishes at Mitton with Mother at least five times a year, and driving her over t'Nick for the views (we hob-nobbed in Downham last time I was up, and she swears that her and me dad almost bought Sabden post office many moons ago), I've never actually visited Whalley Abbey. Do you recommend it? Would I get Mother round if I could cadge a wheelchair? I could be talking early October here...!

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 06:54 PM

Stringsinger, it was you who started this thread (even if you chose its title from another one). I understood it to be about possible analogies between certain kinds of atheism and religion. In a bad BS tradition, the thread gravitates towards other topics discussed in about 27 threads before. If you and others are not willing to read other posts, why do you post at all?

If you do not want to be subsumed with other atheists, please do not subsume me with anyone else. When you quote me, your comment must not refer to other people's opinion or alleged agenda. In fact I have not read here anyone suggesting the existence of a unified "militant atheist" position, quite the contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: Militant atheism has become a religion p
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Sep 13 - 05:40 PM

"There remains no other course for me than to turn the other cheek. Have at it gentlemen."

Who started this thread in the first place?

It was based on a theory also stated that atheists must have had some trauma in order to adopt an atheist position. That's an agenda.

It was stated that atheists insult the clergy by asserting their non-belief. A fight ensued and now it's "lets you and him fight". That's an agenda.

If the clergy is insulted, let them express their views on this thread. It would be instructive to discuss this with them.

"As you write (and I wrote before), non-belief does not have a coherent set of by-laws that would lend itself to conceptions or misconceptions, thus any such ideas would be fallacious right from the start."

But these ideas are being presented on this thread as if there were somehow a unified "militant atheist" position. That's an agenda.

"One cannot be a militant Atheists without someone to fight. What matters to them is not education of the public but the public fight. Mr. Dawkins uses public "debates" to sell his books."

This is patently untrue and the problem with this thread to begin with. Dawkins is impugned by someone for somehow just wanting to "sell his books". This is reflective of the reactionary stance of those "selling their religion" by posting threads that say that atheism is a religion, a false accusation and belies an agenda to discredit atheism.

Dawkins is vitally concerned with educating the public and the denigration of science by the smothering yoke of religion. I doubt he has made even a tenth of the money that has been made by the authors of the "Left Behind" series, Jerry Jenkins being one.

Christians are giving themselves a bad name by intolerance, violence and propaganda. Whenever atheism is attacked for whatever reason or for whatever rationale, it becomes a religious "cause celebre" through the issuance of threads that make a false claim replete with labels and name-calling.

When non-believers protest titles such as heading this thread, they are somehow smacked down as being too "militant". That term has a pejorative connotation and as I remember was used as a weapon against the Civil Rights Movement to discredit that.

You can't step on a toe and not expect the person attached to it to yell "ouch!"