Who Would Jesus Deport?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 11:50 PM

Ron - Check the thread. Ebbie didn't say anything about it. Aside from that, what other side could there be? This isn't an "issue," I'm just reporting what happened.

                   Believe it or not, Mr. Ripley.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 10:00 PM

Sorry, Rig. Ebbie has a somewhat better record of credibility than you do, to say the least.

I still suspect--rather strongly, I'm afraid--that there's a totally different side to this issue --a side we'll never hear from you.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:27 AM

200 !

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Jan 08 - 06:26 AM

I reckon he would deport the sort of people who look for chances to 'do' hundredth posts

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 08:55 PM

Incidentally, as to whether it is 'whom' or 'who':

He who would Jesus deport
Must first acknowledge his existence.

:)

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 08:30 PM

Ron - I am not smearing anyone. The whole process is a matter of public record. Here's how it works.

1. Somebody with a lot of financial clout and a political agenda comes to a state like Oregon from some place else.
2. The last few times I've seen in happen, they have been promoting an agenda to cut taxes, severely, like Grover Norquist, though it wasn't him who was here.
3. They hire signature gatherers to collect signatures on the petitions. Recently, Oregon passed a law mandating that they cannot pay the gatherers on a "per signature basis" like they used to, but they still pay them.
4. Along with the petition to cut taxes, they will have a petition that will target one of these other issues: (a) gay marriage, (b) abortion, (c) prayer in the school--that will extend to nativity scenes at Christmas and etc. (c)teaching creationism as science (d) the right to display the 10 commandments on public buildings. And I think there are a few others.
5. When I go down to the post office to get my mail on any given day prior to an election, these people will be out side, sitting in folding chairs behind little tables. And they will have both petitions. They will have both petitions. They will try to get everybody coming out of the post office to sign both of them.
6. Once they have enough signatures to get their issues on the ballot, you think they would go away.
7. They don't.
8. The reason they don't go away is because they want to look sincere, they want the pedestrian traffic to think they care about the issues, and they have an idea that those individual signers have something invested, and they want to remind them of that.
9. They not only want to make sure these people come to the polls, but they want to make sure they vote the proper way on each of the initiatives.

                Ron - This works. The county I live in had to close its public libraries last year. The local school district is having to combine elementry classrooms and shut down schools.

                You think I'm cynical? I really don't like these people and I wish my county had one little tiny fraction of all that money that's been wasted in Iraq.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jan 08 - 06:18 PM

Rig--

You'd have to close your "Smears R Us" chain and go into another line of work.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 07:05 PM

Well, I suspect if we trimmed off a bunch of excess rhetoric, we could probably communicate.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 05:56 PM

No. And yes. I did. You figure out the order. :)

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:21 PM

Ebbie - Yes, I am in Southern Oregon. I don't think you read what I wrote.

                   Do you sign the petitions to stop gay marriage, curtail women's rights, and cut programs for the needy?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 04:05 PM

Ron, you are right: There is a GREAT deal more to the Oregon story than what Rig is relaying. (By the way, I begin to suspect that Rig is in southern Oregon, an area that has a distinctive oder to it.)

Let's just say that his hyperbolic use of facts only superficially resembles the truth, thus skewing the credibility of his conclusions.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 02:51 PM

Sorry, Rig--your record in giving an objective look--at anything--is, in a word, abysmal.

I look at absurd statements from anywhere on the spectrum and try to discern where the truth lies.

You always have at least one, and maybe a pack of villains to blame for any real or imagined outrage. And often you have been proven wrong.

If I have time, I will do some of my own research on the issue of recent Oregon politics. I somewhat doubt I'll have time. But I strongly suspect there is another side--which we'll never hear from you.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 01:31 PM

Ron, you're right about the electorate having changed, with a large number of retired people moving in from Southern California.
             The thinking people of Oregon do, in fact, not sign such petitions, but it only takes a certain number of signatures to get these issues on the ballot. Then, once the issue is on the ballot, the public is bombarded with wall to wall advertising from the well funded, out-of-state trouble makers until the election is over.
             Oregon, as you can well imagine, is not a very expensive media market, especially everything south of Eugene. So their money goes a long way compared to places like New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, and California. Portland is a little more spendy, and they usually lose in the more densely populated areas of the state, but all they need is a majority state-wide to win.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 12:06 PM

What happened to the Oregon of thinking, tolerant, liberal people? They would not be signing such petitions.

Has the whole state of Oregon turned into Orange County, CA? And I don't believe that Orange County has moved en masse to Oregon, and all the Oregonians have left.

There must be more to the story.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jan 08 - 10:27 AM

What's happening in Oregon is, some group will come in from out of state with an extreme right-wing agenda and hire signature gatherers and get some tax cutting measure on the ballot. Then they begin an advertising campaign with huge war-chests that the opponents can't hope to duplicate.
                  In addition, in the same election, the same group will hire signature gatherers to put something on the ballot that will attract great numbers of the "unthinking," like a gay marriage initiative, or something to do with abortion.
                  Witch doctors across the state will, of course, encourage their unthinking hordes to go out and vote against the gay marriage/abortion measure, and, at the same time, they will be prodded to "by the way, while you're there, vote in the tax cutting measure."
                  It's unclear what the witch doctors and their unthinking hordes get out of all of this. Of course, they're tax exempt, so anything is possible. One can only conclude that they hate poor people.
                  Young couples and single women with small children are the ones who are hurt most by all of this. And, of course, that makes people who think really, really angry.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:40 PM

"...sponsoring ballot initiatives...". But people evidently are voting for these initiatives. Why?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 11:14 PM

Ebbie - I didn't mean to imply that the blame for the failure falls at the feet of illegal aliens. The people who came were largely from other states. There were not illegally in the country.
                  And you're right - Oregon didn't get it right. They should have seen this eventuality coming to pass. The were trying to do something to help the people of their state, and maybe they simply weren't worldly engough. They had the best intentions in the world, and they should be commended for their efforts.

                  And, yes, they are still trying to make it work, and they are still signing up new clients. But the workload has become very taxing, the deductables have gone up to the point that one young family I talked to had to pay their own expenses from January through September before they were finally able to take advantage of the benefits. So that left them with three months of benefits out of the year.

                   One of the main problems with all of it are large political players from out of state who sponsor ballot initiatives that limit liability for taxes of one sort or another, and starve the public agencies for resources.

                   I don't like these people, for what it's worth.

                   I'm sorry I didn't state the situation more clearly in the beginning.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:41 PM

I'm on my way out to music so I haven't yet read all this thread but I do want to address this:

Riginslinger, Jan 11 2:39, wrote, "What happened was, many people who couldn't get health care in some other place moved to Oregon and swamped the system."

At 3:36 Jan 11, Stilly Sage, relying on Rig's perception, wrote, "... Oregon just didn't get it right or was in the wrong position when they put it into play for it to work. Don't blame illegal aliens and the poor for the Oregon failure."

My question, Rig, is: Why then is The Oregon Health Plan this year signing up more than 2,000 people per month to bring the system up to the 30,000 budgeted for?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:41 PM

Ron - As I've noted, the Republican's have already solved the immigration problem by plunging the country into a depression. They did it with Hoover, they did it with Reagan, and they've done it again with Bush Junior.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 10:37 PM

Sorry, Rig. You should check your own postings more often. You said you could "happily" support her. Do you need chapter and verse from your own collected works?

Interesting, considering that she's completely on the other side of the fence from you on immigration--as I noted, she will "smuggle in" far more immigrants than Bush ever did.

Tends to make your rantings rather hollow.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Slag
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 05:12 PM

54-40 or fight!

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 07:23 AM

"They'll be drafting old men down here before long."


             Slag - I don't know where your are, but Bush has sent all of the Oregon troops to Iraq. California has been sending all of their old men to Oregon, and they refuse to play, so the whole thing has just become kind of mindless.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jan 08 - 07:20 AM

Ron - I don't support Hillary so strongly. I was only commenting that I think she has the best chance of getting elected in the general election.
                As far a smuggling in Hispanics, I think the growing recession and the growing rift between blacks and Latinos is rapidly taking care of that.
                Regarding the drafting of Lou Dobbs for president, that was some other organizations hope and dream. And while I think it would be very good for the country, Dobbs has said he is an advocate, not a candidate.
                He's probably right about that. Many people make good advocates and poor candidates. Al Gore comes to mind.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 11:22 PM

Rig--

I'd just like to know why you support Hillary so strongly when, as I pointed out, she will "smuggle in"--as you put it-- far more Hispanics than Bush ever has. Doesn't compute.

Also, how is your campaign to draft Lou Dobbs coming?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 10:56 PM

There we go! Got it going now. Re my quotes, so read the whole Book yourself. I'm not going to copy it onto the 'Cat for you. The Book of John alone would be adequate to get a good feel for Christ's position. Hey, and they crucified Him for His view on things. I'm in good company. Remember, He said it. I was merely quoting it.

Yes Rig, those border towns like Klamath are real iffy. Crossing the frontier, all those Oregonian troops marching in array. I don't know how long this can go on. They'll be drafting old men down here before long.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:36 PM

"Riginslinger of Oregon... This may not include you but in general Californians get a rather chilly reception in Oregon. You get the definite feeling that if Oregonians could close their border to Californios, they would."

                   Yes! For a long time I tried to promote the idea of blowing all the bridges on the Klamath and Smith Rivers, but I couldn't get much of an audience. Now, we have been overrun with Californians who refuse to pay property taxes, refuse to vote in a sales tax, and send most of their money out of state.
                   These are mostly retired people who still think Ronald Reagan was wonderful, whose children are grown, and whose grandchildren live some place else. As a result, the libraries are closed, all the county revenue is spent on law enforcement, and the public schools are on life support.

                   All of this translates, for those of us who have been paying attention, like this: beware of anybody coming in from the south.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:20 PM

Well, you did not succeed. As so often in such arguments you left out a great deal of highly relevant quotations on the theme of tolerance, compassion, generosity, and the like. Ignoring those and selecting out a sanctimonious and righteous, but narrow, interpretation about the select acceptable ones versus the abandoned many does, IMHO, a great disservice to any appeal his reputation might have to those not already in his precious flock. You know why? Because you make him sound like an elitist bigot with no grounding in human compassion.

So does your image of hypothetical people acting as mooches and sponges without contributing anything.

Just wanted to clarify my position on the picture you just painted, there, Slag-me-lad. No hard feelings.


A

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Slag
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:14 PM

I have resisted, until now, even looking at this thread, but well, here I am.

Riginslinger of Oregon... This may not include you but in general Californians get a rather chilly reception in Oregon. You get the definite feeling that if Oregonians could close their border to Californios, they would.

SB: Do you lock your doors? I would guess not. I would suspect that what is true of the whole (of your philosophy) is true of the part (your personal life). So people can just drift in off the street and sleep over in your casa? Help themselves to your food? Without even asking? Take a little here, a little there because someone back home NEEDS it? OK. If that works for you...

My real concern is dragging deity into argument. Whom would Jesus deport? This assumes much. There are spiritual borders that cannot be breached. His heavenly Kingdom is open to any and all who will come and enter in through the proper doorway. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man comes to the Father but by me." He also said "Whoever comes unto me, I will in no wise cast out." which answers your original question. Those who are there legitimately, i.e. by the blood of Jesus, will never be deported. On the other hand he said "He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. Jn 10:1 and "The thief cometh not, but for to steal and to kill and to destroy" Jn 10:10

Thanks. Just wanted to clarify Jesus' position in this.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:10 PM

No question!

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 02:08 PM

AND, where the hell was customs? You know how difficult it is to get weapons on planes? Pretty lax security on someone's part, I'd say . . . .

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 01:53 PM

Good question! What happens if the government of Iraq decides to starte exporting illegal aliens?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:45 PM

Regarding the Iraq invasion: Who stamped all those passports?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 12:41 PM

Well, I did read where they were having trouble getting recruits, because the federal government was sending all the qualified candidates to Iraq to be shot at.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 10:41 AM

"Who Would Jesus Deport?"

Oy. He's working for the Department of Immigration?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 10:32 AM

"And your entertainment value soars higher with every posting."


                   Well thanks, Ron!

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:35 PM

" Bush has been actively trying to smuggle as many illegal Hispanics into the country as possible, hoping to drive the wages of hard-working Americans down even further."

Well, Rig, nobody can say you're not creative in your conspiracy theories--your "Conspiracies R Us" chain is what they call a "category killer"--you cover the waterfront. Nobody else has a chance. Bad luck for some of your Mudcat competitors.

And your entertainment value soars higher with every posting.

Gee, it seems the only things missing are sense and logic.


And, by the way, since you're such a strong supporter of Hillary, what makes you think she won't "smuggle" at least as many in--by pushing for a path to citizenship for illegals? If not as a candidate, then for absolute sure as president.

And how are you coming in your campaign to draft Lou Dobbs?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 10:31 AM

HERE IS A DESCRIPTION OF THE WORKING POOR CITIZENRY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

    "...tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free,... wretched refuse of (our) teeming shore...   the homeless, (and) tempest-tossed,..."

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:12 AM

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.


Ah - THOSE people

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 08:54 AM

Yes, we are. The only question to answer is, a compassionate immigration policy for whom?

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: GUEST,Steve Baughman
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 01:04 AM

So glad to see that we're still thinking about a compassionate immigration policy.

:-)

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:48 AM

Ron - There might be a couple of holes in your analogy:

If I'm a Bush supporter, why would I villify "church goers," Bush's largest cheering section?

If I'm a Bush supporter, why would I oppose Hispanics? Bush has been actively trying to smuggle as many illegal Hispanics into the country as possible, hoping to drive the wages of hard working Americans down even further.

And the "good vs. evil" thing is a Christian concept out of the gate:

Teaching buffoonery in the classroom is a good thing--Teaching science is a bad thing.

Bringing a brain dead fetus to full term in a good thing--Aborting an organism that will never even know it's alive is a bad thing.


       You might want to look up the definition of--Absurdities:

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 11:20 PM

Give it a rest, Rig.

"the church goers"--one unified--villainous group.

"Hispanics"--another unified-- villainous--group.

Etc.


What you remind me of more than anything else is a Bush voter--always black and white--incapable of any distinctions whatsoever.

Rig vs "the evil-doers"--just like Bush himself vs his "evil-doers". And the built-in group smear for your opponents--again just like Bush. Are you sure you're not a Bush supporter?

Manichean (look it up)--- to the n th degree.

And therefore not remotely aware of the real world.

So probably not worth the time of a thinking individual. Only problem is your absurdities are so blatant, the target is too juicy.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 09:27 PM

Actually, it was the "religious wrong" who championed the cause of the politicians who caused the disaster in New Orleans (Ronald Suirtgun, George Dubbya, Newt whatever his name was). These folks purposely denied funding to the Corps of Engineers so the levees could not be repaired and updated. War and a peace time military buildup was more important.
             Of course, this allowed the church goers to run out into the water and act like heroes--or maybe even saviours. But it didn't provide them with enough intellect to allow them to feel guilty. Even if it had, though, forgiveness is always just around the corner for those folks.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 08:14 PM

Hey, Poppa:

Organized groups of people setting out to do some good int the world? Why would anyone argue with that?

I don't see that the religious part is a prerequisite, though.

If there were that many centers of the Society for Ethical Society, they mought well do the same thing.

But you do point out one of the most positive side-effects of organized religion in this country. They CAN mobilize for good.

It is unfortunate that in the last decade, many of them ALSO mobilized for not-so-good. For example, electing Bush, and heating up the anti-immigration argument, defaming Kerry, and so on. So it's a mixed bag, but I am agree about your point regarding volunteers for Katrina.


A

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 05:20 PM

Another obvious advantage of churches in addressing an emergency like Katrina--yet another aspect which appears to have escaped the towering intellect of some critics of religion--is that the churches are right there--close to the scene of the disaster. No huge logistical problem actually getting to the place where they can do good.

Not that said critics of religion can be expected to recognize reality.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:49 PM

Very true, PoppaGator. When I was sent to Rexburg, ID as part of the Federal relief party after the Teton Dam burst in 1976, one of the things that amazed me was the effort put forth by the Mormon Church. They sent hundreds of volunteers up from Utah and these people cleaned the city up, one block after another, removing mud and debris from yards without any consideration being given to church membership.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:15 PM

Okay!

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:07 PM

Right. In the case of Katrina, they could do something that made them "feel good," which is what they're all about, and they knew a lot of other folks would see them doing it.

What a load of crap! There was and is a lot of hard work to be done, and not every local property-owner is able to participate in the recovery, due to age, disability, poverty, exhaustion, abandonment by insurers, etc. When a group of strangers shows up to help, it's a real blessing. Even if some volunteers may be acting from motives that are not purely selfless, the effort they have been making has produced real, measurable, and highly necessary results. Stay-at-home critics, on the other hand, haven't helped anyone.

Take it from an up-close-and-personal witness: Churchgoers of all denominations have made enormous contributions to the home-by-home reconstruction of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. While government at all levels has succeeded at little more than fingerpointing and profiteering, much of the real and necessary work has been and is being performed by serious and devout individuals who came together in their local churches, and who very often secured funding from larger church organizations (dioceses, synods, etc.).

Plenty of goodhearted secular people have been doing the same kinds of things, but churchgoers are much better organized and thus able to bring themselves to town in much larger numbers. While there are multiple churches in virtually every town and city, similar local assemblies of freethinkers are pretty rare, and therefore have been less of a presence in our local "voluntourism" phenomenon than have church groups.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:03 PM

Arguing the relative merits of a war that took place over 160 years ago is an exercise in futility. This was long before the innate superiority of the Anglo-Saxon Race became to be assumed, and contemporary military tacticians were not at all certain that a US victory was assured. After all, Mexico had a larger professional army and had fought a victorious war against another military power (Spain) much more recently than had the US.

Subject: RE: Who Would Jesus Deport?
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 02:00 PM

Well. it's a bit like Israel. After all the improvements we've put in place, you'd think the cost basis would have gone up.


A