BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 12:15 PM

Nothing on Wiki is authenticated - that is the nature of Wiki - it is based on opinions,

Wrong Jim. The little blue numbers relate to the source of the information.
Every fact given there has a source provided.

By the way Keith -
"The 900 mile wall across Germany"
The Berlin Wall was 155 km (96 mi) - maybe you should send Wiki a new tape measure!!

Wrong again Jim.
The wall around Berlin was indeed 96 miles, and the wall across the whole of Germany was another 866 miles.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 11:38 AM

Then why not simply dismantle the points he raises
It really doesnt get more complicated than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 11:07 AM

Jim Carroll- re your link to:

"What "documented evidence?"
THIS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE
Jim Carroll"

How that brought me back to the 'good' ol' days of The Cold War. Indeed, we are in the territory of "The God That Failed", and "Darkness at Noon" and of course, the still valid "1984".

The Gowan piece, to which you link, is a screed justifying the "Dictatorship OVER the Proletariat" that was Communist Eastern Europe. It seeks to humanize and justify the Eastern German nation-state that existed from Post-War to 1989.

The elephant in the room unseen was, of course, terror. The Stalinist imposition of imposed thought patterns under threat of death of oneself, one's loved ones, or both. From Stalin's point of view, it was simply survival. This is the case of ultimate equivalency: Stalin's survival as important as Roosevelt's for instance. It is understandable- from Stalin's point of view. It led to the killing of millions of people across the U.S.S.R. and Eastern Europe, and the sending of other millions to the Gulags and various institutions, including of course, in a less lethal environment, in the 70s, mental institutions because if you were loco enough to oppose the state, certainly you must be mentally challenged.

Unfortunately for those who accept Gowan's article as anything other than a self-justifying screed, I remember Communism and Communists. They were not unlike the racists of the Nazis in that they set up a self-justifying philosophy that supplanted reality by using their own version of Orwellian Newspeak. I'll never forget one professor at my university explaining to me that the failures of the U.S.S.R. were not due to Communism being imperfect, but that the Russians trying to implement it were.

Jim Carroll you have been right about one thing, this is become a cold war back-and-forth. Whatever language you choose to indulge in, you have swallowed the principle of equivalency which I reject. There is no need for name calling. This is our point of difference. I think this applies to our difference in the Middle East as well. We are using a different set of basic standards and, like the impossibility of squaring the circle using nothing but a straight-edge and a compass, we will not be able to agree.

Thank you for populating your threads with enough clarity and references to make this clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:31 AM

America put Cuba under a state of Siege for fifty years

Again, no matter how often you keep repeating it there was no siege. You are just lying to justify totalitarian oppression.

Whatever did and didn't happen in Cuba was caused by the circumstances imposed on it from outside, not from internal tyranny.

Again I quote from Solidarity: (an independent socialist organization dedicated to forming a broad regrouping of the U.S. left.)

"despite the strenuous efforts of the U.S. government, Cuba has not been isolated from most of the rest of the globe. The main causes of Cuba's poverty must surely be domestic."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:30 AM

THESE ARE THE ACTUAL RATHER THAN THE MADE UP FIGURES
Not unreported at all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:24 AM

"900 mile wall that was built to imprison the population of the DDR."
All natioional borders are prisons in that case.#
Keith taked about the wall which was, as I said, 96 miles long, he said it was to imprison the whole of eastern Europe - you appear to have adjusted that to the population of the D.D.R. - both are fantaised crap, of course.
Don't know where the "Workers Paradise" earned its quotation marks - not from me.
More made up Teribus crap.
"The most under reported mass immigration in history."
I would have though the estimated 7.2 million Palestinian refugees merited that title, by far.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:07 AM

Once again, you are putting up unqualified opinions without putting them into context.
America put Cuba under a state of Siege for fifty years, during that period, the U.S. was waging a war on a Third World peasant country which brought about between 1,450,000, and 3,595,000 deaths
Why moralise about one and ignore the other - America was involved in both?
Whatever did and didn't happen in Cuba was caused by the circumstances imposed on it from outside, not from internal tyranny.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:07 AM

Jim Carroll - 05 Dec 16 - 07:45 AM

By the way Keith -
"The 900 mile wall across Germany"
The Berlin Wall was 155 km (96 mi) - maybe you should send Wiki a new tape measure!!

By the way Jim the 155 km of wall you refer to as the Berlin Wall was only one part of the 900 mile wall that was built to imprison the population of the DDR.

By the way Jim the one thing you didn't mention whilst on your travels. Did you ever have to sit on the floor of a train because of the countless thousands of oppressed people fleeing from the "west" to that "Workers Paradise" that was the DDR? The most under reported mass immigration in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:04 AM

Totalitarianism of the left or totalitarianism of the right are both totalitarianism. It's where the extremists of the left meet and shake hands with those of the right, the only difference being the hymn book from which they sing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 09:26 AM

"one who believes Kim Jong-un is misunderstood......lol."
So what Bobad?
The author has put together a number of facts and rationised them into an article that makes sense rather than the empty rhetoric you lot come up with
Coming from sombody who screams "antisemitism" every time anybody criticises a fascist regime, your argument rings somewhat hollow
I have no knowledge of Kim Jong-un whatsoever and would never pass an opinion on him until I had, but, as with every other leader that does not serve western interests, I would not go to opponents of a system to fill the gap - the waves of ignorance on Cuba confirm the folly of that.
If you disagree with the arguments put forward, provide alternatives.
You are the only people who rely totally on the opinions of others without providing knowledge of your own.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 09:12 AM

Exiled writer Zoé Valdés on the Most Terrible Things About Life Under Castro

"Immediately afterwards I began to remember all the people who died in exile, as well as all of the people he murdered," she said. "And then my thoughts turned to his victims."

"My family told me, 'You must not repeat at school what you hear at home about Castro,'" she recalled. "And it was something that really left an impression on me because at home my mother and grandmother were against Castro, but at school everything that I heard was pro-Castro. So from a very early age I was taught two opposing ways of speaking and two opposing value systems."

"I learned that if I thought differently (from the government's party line) I was not to say it or to express it, and to be discreet,"

"The thing that was worse than the fear itself, was the acceptance of the fear and the way living in fear became a normal part of daily life," she said. "That was the most terrible thing."

"The internal repression against dissidents and artists is still the same," she said. "I think with Raúl Castro it will continue as before. After which his children will take over the regime, plus the military is still there. So it is difficult to say that things will change immediately."

The Daily Beast

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 08:55 AM

It's actually a detailed researched article by a Canadian researcher.....one who believes Kim Jong-un is misunderstood......lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 08:40 AM

".it's a blog post by a brain dead, extremist, regressive leftist apologist for dictators of repressive regimes."
Anybody to the left of Hitler or Netanyahu the Yahoo fits that description as far as you are concerned Bobad.
It's actually a detailed researched article by a Canadian researcher - but I quite realise that such people aren't included in your world of freedom of speech.
Answer his points or butt out, seems to be the appropriate response to a serial troll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 08:00 AM

THIS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE

Lol......it's a blog post by a brain dead, extremist, regressive leftist apologist for dictators of repressive regimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 07:45 AM

By the way Keith -
"The 900 mile wall across Germany"
The Berlin Wall was 155 km (96 mi) - maybe you should send Wiki a new tape measure!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:57 AM

"What "documented evidence?"
THIS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:36 AM

"We have been asked to refrain from personal abuse. "
Then stop insulting our intelligence
Your repetitios behaviour and your refusal to responfd to what is put up makes you what I described you are - not an analysis based on your behaviour
Repeating things over and over again and ignoring ansers is a long established technique with you - in cricket, it's known as 'stone-walling'
If you have any argument with what I have put up, argue with it and stop pretending it's not there.
"What "documented evidence?"
I've just told you what and asked you to respond to is several time - see wwhat I mean - pretending it's not there?
If you are not interested in responding to it - fine - I'm not interested in responding to you.
"the things I referred to are facts."
Based on personal experience and decades of reading, they bear no resemblance to fact
"starry eyed communist dreamers "
If you don't want to be insulted - stop insulting others - you've already described me as this once and I have refuted it
Nothing on Wiki is authenticated - that is the nature of Wiki - it is based on opinions, sometimes authoritative, but often not.
It is idiotic to suggest you can sum up the history of a State or a number of States with one page of script - that's comic-book research.
It's just as idiotic that, because something is 'authenticated' on Wiki, it is proven - it simply means that it is referenced to someone
Do you believe there is a Wiki-fairy whose job it is to check everything that is put up?
Jaysus - it's like believing in a god you can't see.
Now - argue on the basis of what I have said here (without insults) or we're done here.
In the light of the entire study of Eastern European history, what you have put up so far is 'Cold War Bullshit' - the subject really is more complicated than a page of Wiki
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:31 AM

Sorry, forgot the link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border#Escape_attempts_and_victims_of_the_inner_German_border

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:03 AM

Jim,
You are a braindead right-wing propaganda swallower

We have been asked to refrain from personal abuse. I do, why can't you?

who refused to respond to documented evidence

What "documented evidence?"

and trot out Cold-War bullshit

Apart from young starry eyed communist dreamers who never grew up, everyone knows the things I referred to are facts.

Which of them do you deny Jim?

Here is the Wiki page I quoted.
All the quotes are authenticated.
On the whole page there is only one "citation required" and that is on a photograph.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:03 AM

A reminder
"every time you mention the name Woodcock I know I've got through to you and you are getting rattled.""
Oh yes you most certainly do Carroll
It will remind everyone that you are truly clueless and gormless to an astounding degree.
"Got the point now Shaw"
Probably because Carroll
Really Carroll
Keep floundering about Carroll
So all in all Christmas
For JOM:
Christmas
No need for reminders JOM I have nothing but the utmost contempt for you and everything you stand for. Not many humans wander this planet without one single redeeming feature - you seem to have managed that without even trying.
The Truth according to JOM - thick as shit and proud of it
I will repeat IT YET AGAIN FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE AMONG US WHO ARE TOO BLOODY THICK TO UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH (i.e. YOU RAGGY)
"complete and utter buffoon"
"That by the way THICKO "
"clueless ignoramus of truly astounding degree"
"Carroll"
"Have you found an echo JOM?"
Or have you always wandered through life making a complete and utter JOM-like CUNT of yourself?
Carroll
"Here is a link for you Jom:"
"By the way JOM"
"how boastful a man can get doesn't it JOM?"
"Don't worry JOM"

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:00 AM

"I don't tell lies"

Oh yes you most certainly do Carroll - Examples:

1: "No Poppies for me" Thread, where you were exposed telling lies.

2: "Syria: the new nightmare" Thread where you were exposed telling lies.

Note on the Brexit thread where you listed a number of posts by Akenaton you forgot to tag them to your posts where you distorted what had been said in order to back up your rather delusional views.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:47 AM

That meant sometthing I am sure Teibus
Whatyou will find on The Brexit thread is a huge list of examples of your abusive and insulting behaviour to those who deem to agree with you.
Can't help but notice you are now making an effort to not add to it - but should you lapse - those examples will be added to the list.
You will also fingd your mate, having called me a liar, as you just have, and being proved a liar himself with a huge string of examples of what he claimed I made up.
I don't tell lies - I don't see the poing of doing so on a debate forum - only a few of you are here to score points and win prizes, the rest of us are here to pass on what we think we know and hopefully to learn more.
I have no idea why you personally are here - you add little other than a bad taste and an impression of an insecure and arrogant little man.
Now - if you wish to prove anything I have said about Cuba is wrong, please do so - as far as anything you have just said, you have had ample enough time to prove them and haven't managed to do so, so far, so let's move on and not be cluttering this discussion up with personal arguments - waddy'a say?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:15 AM

Jim Carroll - 04 Dec 16 - 12:43 PM

1: I don't make things up - as I have now shown of the Brexit thread

What you have more or less conclusively shown on the Brexit thread was that you do distort what has been stated and that you do make things up

2: Talk about making things up
"and seemed to do it with a diligence and zeal that defies description." - Teribus
Therre is no evidence this ever happened.

Disagree completely the statistics detailing the numbers killed, arrested and imprisoned for attempting to flee, not to mention those imprisoned for plotting to flee is more than ample evidence to back up my statement.

3: the Brits invented concentration camps in South Africa

MYTH. They were first used by the Spanish in 1873 in Cuba during the Ten Years War as a means of quelling a rebellion and again in Cuba in 1896 during the Cuban War of Independence - Matter of historical record. The strategy was adopted by the British in South Africa against the Boers in 1900.

4: As far as you are concerned Jim "The British record" on anything is appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 12:43 PM

" Keith adding 2+2 and making 4,"
Keith said what he said and I don't make things up - as I have now shown of the Brexit thread
Talk about making things up
"and seemed to do it with a diligence and zeal that defies description."
Therre is no evidence this ever happened.
One minute the soldiers are automatons obeying orders and the next they are howling monsters enjoying killing their fellow citizens - who says so
It is the Brits in Ireland after Bloody Sunday who were found to have had drunken parties celebrating their kills and hanging souvenirs on the barrack walls
"I'm saying that it's NOT THE SAME."
No point saying it if you are not prepared top prove it - why is it not the same?
And yes - the Brits invented concentration camps in South Africa - so what - were they any less reprehensible for doing so
The British record in that war was appalling
The Americans still have one for untried suspects - and they have a reputation for torture - waterboarding, sleep deprivation, mock executions - we've seen the photos from Camp X-Ray - why are these acceptable?
Why are massacres like Kenbt State - or the McCarthy Trials, or the treatment of blacks sending their kids to white schools or trying to vote?
And where is your evidence that any of these shooting downs has an equivalence in Cuba?
You have been given a summing up of East Germany - where is your response
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 12:23 PM

People are dancing around the argument I'm making that if you see various parties as equivalent then anything they do in pursuit of their aims is 'ok'. (The school bully is simply making the small kid punch himself because he has a right to feel good, too).

If Israel is equivalent to the DDR, then their walls are a wash. Some people get ahead, some get hurt, it's all the same. The fact that they each have motives is greater than what the motives actually are. The fact that they are each trying to preserve their society is more important than the facts OF the society. And that goes for Cuba, too, apparently.

I'm saying that it's NOT THE SAME.

Extending this argument one can argue the British built concentration camps and interned Boers. The Americans built camps and interned Japanese U.S. citizens. The Germans built concentration camps and interned Jews, Communists, Gypsies, Homosexuals et. al. The Russians built an extensive Gulag system and interned a host of people for a host of reasons (including none). Each event has its own justifications from the point of view of the constructor. Each is controversial.

I'm saying that the United States, the Soviet Union, Great Britain, and Nazi Germany were still NOT THE SAME just 'cause they all built camps.

That was my original intent on responding to Joe Offer's post of 02 Dec 16 - 09:34 PM . That is why I responded against Joe's statement (in italics):

"Both Israel and the DDR could argue that they needed their walls for basic survival, and that's a valid argument. The Castro regime could argue the same for restricting emigration from Cuba."
I responded:
"With your third paragraph, I think you have either walked or stumbled badly into equivalency."


The posts since then have NOT addressed explicitly whether these nations are equivalent or not. I say they're not, which is the basis of my arguments.

If you think they are equivalent, that is the unstated basis of your argument.

The successive posting and the to-ing and fro-ing back and froth are fruitless until you address the main point.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 12:00 PM

You've a right cheek Jim, complaining about Keith adding 2+2 and making 4, when you do it continuously and come up with the figure 5.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 11:36 AM

"I suspect than as an idealistic young communist visiting the communist world you saw what you wanted and expected to see, and ignored the unpleasant fact that the people had to be prevented from fleeing it."
Ho ****** dare you
You come up with a load of unqualified shit, produce a cut-n'-paste from Wiki and accuse mme of lying
Who on earth said I was a young communist - I most certainly didn't.
You are a braindead right-wing propaganda swallower who refused to respond to documented evidence and trot out Cold-War bullshit
Plenty of evidence for that and a recod as long as your arm
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 11:28 AM

you saw what you wanted and expected to see
Rather like you do to an unprecedented degree, Professor, usually in the face of conclusive evidence to the contrary..

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:32 AM

Jim,
To be honest Keith - I would much rather take my own personal experience and a lifelong interest on the subject to a hastily sought out cut-n-paste from Wiki

I want through that wall without difficulty - on a train - it was no different and probably a damn sight easier that if I wanted to fly from Shannon to America

How often did you come under fire leaving Shannon for US. Well done for surviving.
Were many killed, mutilated and maimed by land mines and directional mines on the fence?
Did you see large numbers of your fellow travellers dragged off to long terms of incarceration?

I suspect than as an idealistic young communist visiting the communist world you saw what you wanted and expected to see, and ignored the unpleasant fact that the people had to be prevented from fleeing it.

"Those caught in the act were often tried for espionage as well and given proportionately harsher sentences.[130] More than 75,000 people – an average of more than seven people a day – were imprisoned for attempting to escape across the border,"

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 09:22 AM

"Yikes, these bizarre attempts to draw spurious equivalence smacks of desperation."
No they don't - it shows practical examples of State oppression by a State that has blockaded another country, as distinct from unqualified accusations of oppression.
The crushing of Civil Rights Demonstrations around the time when the Castro Govenment was just beginning and the McCarthy Trials, still happening in the U.S., just four years before the Batista Regime was overthrown, are undisputed breaches of Human Rights, yet the Government which was responsible for them can blockade a state for - abusing Human Rights
A bleedin' joke, in anyone's book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 08:45 AM

What a ridiculous deflection, Teribus. I'm not putting anything up as a "counter." When I say that shit happens everywhere I'm not playing your silly yah-boo he's-as-bad-as-me schoolyard game. If I'd wanted to do that I could have pointed to IDF snipers shooting children on a beach. I'm saying that picking out isolated incidents in order to show how rotten a regime is is fraught and not worth pursuing, which I did actually say if you read my post. As for your "fact," care to provide us evidence for the incident chapter and verse or do we take your word for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 08:06 AM

Yikes, these bizarre attempts to draw spurious equivalence smacks of desperation. Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that your argument has been destroyed and move on, else the hole just keeps getting deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 07:48 AM

"Let's face it, without justifying any of it: shit happens everywhere."

And all deserve condemnation, it is you and your pals who attempt to justify.

"Every time you pick out an isolated outrage in one country to demonstrate what baddies their leaders are, it's no trouble to pick out ten others in the places you think are very nice. A sterile line of enquiry, I'd say."

What an idiotic line of argument, but one that does not surprise me considering the person putting it forward.

On lines of argument this, also yours, is equally idiotic:

"Their own government, in the land of the free, is so shit scared of the gun lobby that it can be blamed to a very large extent for the runaway gun culture that ultimately leads to those school mass-murders."

Especially as you put it as a counter to the fact that the police, border guards and army of the DDR blindly followed orders to gun down their own citizens and seemed to do it with a diligence and zeal that defies description.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 07:41 AM

BANNED BOOKS U.S.

SUPPRESSION of FREE SPEECH US
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 07:28 AM

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS US
BRITISH WHITEWASH
How does the song go:
And the country I belong to
They call it the Free West
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 07:21 AM

POLICE KILLINGS 2015
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 07:18 AM

STANDING ROCK 2016
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 07:15 AM

SELMA five years after the Cuban Revolution
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 06:43 AM

SHOT FOR GOING TO SCHOOL a decade after the Cuban Revolution
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 05:56 AM

Their own government, in the land of the free, is so shit scared of the gun lobby that it can be blamed to a very large extent for the runaway gun culture that ultimately leads to those school mass-murders. Let's face it, without justifying any of it: shit happens everywhere. Every time you pick out an isolated outrage in one country to demonstrate what baddies their leaders are, it's no trouble to pick out ten others in the places you think are very nice. A sterile line of enquiry, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 04:58 AM

"Thing is, Teribus, in the land of the free hundreds of people get shot just for going to school." - Steve Shaw

Not by their own Government they don't Shaw. Small distinction I know but I think it significant.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 04:33 AM

This doesn't appear to be going anywhere - still the same old uncorroborated and illogical same old.
Describing an entire people who would willingly allow themselves to be treated as "animals in a zoo" without showing any visible signs of resistance is just about scraping the bottom of the illogical barrel for me.
Educated people (I see no argument that they are not), don't behave like that, and if you wish to treat them as such, you don't educate them.
Doesn't make sense on any level.
"Ms. Guerra's article in the NYT refers to her actual life under Castro "
There is very little evidence of how her life was spent - as it is, she appears to be reaping the benefits of American culture outside of Cuba as a pop-jazz singer.
Many people left Cuba because they could get a better life for themselves as individuals elsewhere - people do that all over the world without it being an accurate reflection on the countries they left.
Cuba, East Germany, The Soviet Union...... attempted to create a better life for everybody, which began to bring about a leveling out of society, meaning those that once had, had less - the mostly extreme cases of this were in Cuba, where the land that wasn't owned by American companies was owned by six families - until it was shared out among the people who once worked it as employees - bound to be a few unhappy bodies after that happened.
"I am saying that Israel, a democratic country with a mult-ethnic population"
I have no intention of making this an issue again, but this is simply not the case - read the ''Inequality Report'
Israel is increasingly moving to the extreme right under the present regime - even Israeli Jews are describing what is happening as 'Fascism' and comparing it to pre-war Germany, including high up members of the establishment - even ex directors of the Security Service, Mossad.
There are accusations, from Jews and Arabs alike, that Israel has embarked on a programmer based on the old South African Apartheid system, creating Arab GHETTOS (can't put this up in full without subscribing, but the headline is enough).
That is what the Israeli Wall is about.
Any State which claims that opponents to its policies within the Jewish religion are "Self-Hating Jews" are not even treating Jews democratically and dividing them into supporters and opponents.
These opponents are claiming that the Arabs are being "Ethnically cleansed" to create a monotheistic state - on the slippery slope to Fascism, if not there already.
Unless anybody can respond to this with facts and logic rather than the hateful, insulting rhetoric that such facts elicit, that's all I have to say about the Israeli wall - the wall is there and it has a purpose which serves the regime that put it up.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 10:38 PM

Joe:
Of course I read your entire post. You don't seem to have read to the end of MY post where I extrapolated your argument as justifying concentration camps and gulags because they were simply the acts of states preserving themselves.
That' the danger of equivalency.

Ms. Guerra's article in the NYT refers to her actual life under Castro so you don't need to refer to Mr. Orwell's great novella, it's really happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:52 PM

Robomatic says, in response to my post: All the walls mentioned by you above are controversial and can be argued about in their local contexts. But they are not equivalent. I am saying that Israel, a democratic country with a mult-ethnic population is not equivalent to the DDR, a Communist totalitarian regime. Your argument assumes that Israel and the DDR have the same valid right to existence.

I think you failed to read to the end of my post. All those who build walls, can make valid arguments to defend their fortifications. But in building a wall to stop a few offenders, they also do great harm to many others who are innocent. This is true in Germany, in Israel - and in the already-fortified United States, whose president-elect wants to build a yet-higher wall so he can surpass both Israel and Berlin.

-Joe-

P.S. George Orwell used the animal-communism analogy long ago. Animal Farm was published in 1945.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:28 PM

Here's a New York Times link to a native Cuban who unlike me does not refer to people under Communism as cattle in a paddock. She thinks of 'em as animals in a zoo as opposed to the jungle:

Welcome to Savage Capitalism

As usual, New York Times links might be iffy for some webbees.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:20 PM

How I envy John Faulkner and Sandra Kerr who sang to Castro.
imo,Fidel was a great man.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 02:56 PM

" Soviets' extensive gulag system"
The Soviets "Gulag System" was set up by the Tsarist Regime they overthrew and was in existence for at least a century before the Revolution - Tolstoy wrote an excellent novel (Resurrection) on it.
Many of the leading Revolutionaries were inmates - Trotsky escaped from them twice.
Stalinism had nothing to do with either Socialism or Communism, many of Stalin#'s victims were both and his leading socialist opponent, the former Minister of War, was murdered on the order of Stalin in Mexico.
As with Keith, you have available a fairly articulate analysis of what happened in East Germany, including an explanation of The Wall.
Don't you think it would be far more satisfactory to dismantle that rather than stump up time-worn Cold War clichés?
Fra more conclusive from your point of view and far more likely to avoid errors like "trying to maintain the social order"
REad and enjoy - or not!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 01:47 PM

you could make a similar argument that by establishing concentration camps, the Nazis were simply trying to maintain the social order

You COULD, but you would be an idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 12:55 PM

"How little you knew or understood them Jim."
To be honest Keith - I would much rather take my own personal experience and a lifelong interest on the subject to a hastily sought out cut-n-paste from Wiki
I can't see a word there that claims the wall was built to enclose a half-continent plus, as you have.
I have given you what I believe to be an accurate summary of The reason for the Wall and the situation prevailing in Est Germany at the time it was built.
Do you honestly think that ignoring that and putting forward a cut-'n-paste that touches not a single point of that summary, proves anything.
As I said - I've visited sicx of these "imprisoned and terrorised" countries - why dis I miss the imprisonment and terrorism?
one of these countries were ideal, by any mans, but they were all idealistic - they believed they were creating a better world for themselves - which is more than I can say for the non-communist countries I have visited.
Would the British people have the same ideals - but how can they, with our dishonest, self-serving politicians and corrupt bankers who are ruining our world more and more daily with their greed and corruption.
When I was in Prague I met a young North Vietnamese soldier who had been given leave because he had been in the field without a break for over two years.
We went to the park to argue with the young Russian soldiers - no fear - no hatred - no subservience to terrorism - a young man who was risking his life for his desire for a better world - an idealist fighter, not the terrorised slave you would have us accept - he had witnessed the nightly raids of the B52s dropping their filthy loads on his family and friends - people like you defend those actions and describe the victims as political prisoners.
Maybe the whole of the Soveit bloc was "brainwashed" like your Irish children.
How little you know or understand, or even want to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 12:40 PM

Joe, you wrote:

I think there are valid arguments on both sides of the Palestine issue. It's true that the wall has helped curtail the frequent bombings that were taking place in Israel, and I do believe that was a valid concern for the Israelis. But on the other hand, the wall was detrimental to the lives of the vast majority of residents of the Palestinian territory who were not guilty of any participation in the bombings. The wall made it impossible for many Palestinians to go to work or shopping, or to visit family and friends on the other side of the wall.

Same with the wall in Berlin. The border in Berlin was the most permeable border in Europe until the Berlin Wall was erected in 1961. Until then, Berliners worked and shopped and lived on both sides of the border, and had friends and family on both sides. The Wall was built mostly for economic reasons - East Germans were leaving in droves, and this created severe instability in the workforce. Stabilizing the workforce was a valid concern for the GDR
(German Democratic Republic/DDR). But the wall caused the same serious problems for innocent people that the wall in Israel caused. ....

Both Israel and the DDR could argue that they needed their walls for basic survival, and that's a valid argument. The Castro regime could argue the same for restricting emigration from Cuba.


With your third paragraph, I think you have either walked or stumbled badly into equivalency.

All the walls mentioned by you above are controversial and can be argued about in their local contexts. But they are not equivalent. I am saying that Israel, a democratic country with a mult-ethnic population is not equivalent to the DDR, a Communist totalitarian regime. Your argument assumes that Israel and the DDR have the same valid right to existence.

By assuming equivalency, you could make a similar argument that by establishing concentration camps, the Nazis were simply trying to maintain the social order that was the heart of their raison d'etre. That the Soviets' extensive gulag system was merely their means of maintaining their onerous rule.