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BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Dec 16 - 11:34 AM Jim, I want through that wall without difficulty - on a train - it was no different and probably a damn sight easier that if I wanted to fly from Shannon to America How little you knew or understood them Jim. Wiki, At the end of the 1970s, a study was carried out by the East German army to review attempted "border breaches" (Grenzdurchbrüche). It found that 4,956 people had attempted to escape across the border between 1 December 1974 and 30 November 1979. Of those, 3,984 people (80.4%) were arrested by the Volkspolizei in the Sperrzone, the outer restricted zone. 205 people (4.1%) were caught at the signal fence.[127] Within the inner security zone, the Schutzstreifen, a further 743 people (15%) were arrested by the guards. 48 people (1%) were stopped – i.e. killed or injured – by landmines and 43 people (0.9%) by SM-70 directional mines on the fence. A further 67 people (1.35%) were intercepted at the fence (shot and/or arrested). A total of 229 people – just 4.6% of attempted escapees, representing less than one in twenty – made it across the fence. Of these, the largest number (129, or 55% of successful escapees) succeeded in making it across the fence in unmined sectors. 89 people (39% of escapees) managed to cross both the minefields and the fence, but just 12 people (6% of the total) succeeded in getting past the SM-70s booby-trap mines on the fences.[127] Escape attempts were severely punished by the GDR. From 1953, the regime described the act of escaping as Republikflucht (literally "flight from the Republic"), by analogy with the existing military term Fahnenflucht ("desertion"). A successful escapee was not a Flüchtling ("refugee") but a Republikflüchtiger ("Republic deserter"). Those who attempted to escape were called Sperrbrecher (literally "blockade runners" but more loosely translated as "border violators").[126] Those who helped escapees were not Fluchthelfer ("escape helpers"), the Western term, but Menschenhändler ("human traffickers").[128] Such ideologically coloured language enabled the regime to portray border crossers as little better than traitors and criminals.[129] Republikflucht became a crime in 1957, punishable by heavy fines and up to three years' imprisonment. Any act associated with an escape attempt – including helping an escapee – was subject to this legislation. Those caught in the act were often tried for espionage as well and given proportionately harsher sentences.[130] More than 75,000 people – an average of more than seven people a day – were imprisoned for attempting to escape across the border, serving an average of one to two years' imprisonment. Border guards who attempted to escape were treated much more harshly and were on average imprisoned for five years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 03 Dec 16 - 11:29 AM Thing is, Teribus, in the land of the free hundreds of people get shot just for going to school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 16 - 10:35 AM "It would help to acquaint yourself with the definition of siege, you wouldn't look so foolish then." It would help if you read what is put up and responded to it with rational argument - you wouldn't appear as cowardly and nasty as you do Jim Carrroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:42 AM It would help to acquaint yourself with the definition of siege, you wouldn't look so foolish then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:39 AM Or 638 WAYS TO KILL CASTRO Or BAY of PIGS or CIA MURDER ATTEMPTS Any evidence that this didn't happen Bobad - whoops, forgot, you lot don't go in fro evidence Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:30 AM "more of Carroll's made up shit®" Not even original - straight from Teribus's Dictionary of Limited Vocabulary TROLLING DOESN'T HACK IT UNLESS YOU COME UP WITH THE GOODS YOURSELF |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:24 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:49 AM Cuba has been in a virtual state of siege lasting 50 years Lol.........more of Carroll's made up shit® |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:44 AM "1,100 " As little as that? Considering the inducements being offered it's ais surprising that there weere not many more. "Pleased that Jim had such an easy time crossing the border, great pity they didn't keep him. " Small minded as ever - and as unoriginal. Why not address the given facts rather than indulging in the spy fiction version of the events. I don't in any way support the Wall's existence, but I have made an effort to understand it. Why not get help to do so yourself? Do you know how many Vietnamese were murdered because they tried to establish the wrong sort of Government, or how many opponents of America's ally Pinochet (supported enthusiatically by Thatcher and the U.S.), were raped, tortured and murdered for opposing a fascist coup, or those who suffered the same fate in the Greek coup while Britain hosted a visit of the King and Queen of Greece or how many Arabs have been killed in order to keep oil flowing to the west, or how many died at the hands of Britain's friends in Apartheid South Africa......? This is about Cuba - the U.S. has inflicted half a century of hardship on an entire nation because it did not approve of Government policies. The list of suffering and deaths in defence of the interests of Capitalism greatly outnumbers those caused by defending aspiring Communist States - and goes back much further. How about addressing those facts? You might start by counting the millions that died at the hands of German Industrial Capitalism Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Teribus Date: 03 Dec 16 - 07:17 AM Well they reckon around 1,100 people were shot trying to cross from the DDR to the FDR during the Cold War. Pleased that Jim had such an easy time crossing the border, great pity they didn't keep him. Others of course were not so lucky: 1: On 13 October 1961, Westfälische Rundschau journalist Kurt Lichtenstein was shot on the border near the village of Zicherie after he attempted to speak with East German farm workers. His death aroused condemnation across the political spectrum in West Germany; he was a former parliamentary representative of the German Communist Party. The incident prompted students from Braunschweig to erect a sign on the border protesting the killing. Fancy that getting shot just for trying to talk to somebody - What freedom indeed in the "Workers Paradise". 2: "An apparent mix-up over papers at a border crossing point led to the shooting of Benito Corghi, an Italian truck driver, in August 1976. The dead man was a member of the Italian Communist Party, which denounced the killing. The episode severely embarrassed the East German government and produced an unusual apology." There but for the grace of God eh Jim? Could have been you. 3: "In one notorious shooting on 1 May 1976, a former East German political prisoner, Michael Gartenschläger, who had fled to the West some years before, was ambushed and killed by a Stasi commando squad on the border near Büchen as he tried to dismantle an SM-70 anti-personnel mine. When his body was buried it was described merely as an "unknown body fished out of the water". The Stasi's after-action report, however, declared that "before he could carry out the act [of removing the mine], Gartenschläger was liquidated by security forces of the GDR". Summary executions Jim, names, dates and place all known. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:52 AM Should be John Le Carre of course, before Teribus gets hi typo pencil out Too early in the morning - thinking of my food! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:49 AM For crying out loud Keith - read and answer the artical. Your knowledge seems to have been gleaned from Len Deighton and John Le Carrier (two of my favourite FICTION authors) You can no more keep half a continent (and part of Asia) confined by a wall than you can repress an entire nation against its will for half a century Try working out the situation any country attempting to change its system against world-wide hostile opposition would react - Cuba was beginning to emerge from the Cold War when Castro died. By the way - I passed over the Czech border with the same ease as I did the German one - - one visit to a photogropher in a little German border town the night before did the trick Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:32 AM So a wall I could pass through with ease by showing a passport (didn't even need a visa) can keep half of Europe under repression - feckin' idiotic. Did you try it or see it tried with an East European passport? No, because that would be "feckin' idiotic." The border was seeded with mines, electric fences and guards who were under orders to shoot. Many were killed trying to escape. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:20 AM "The 900 mile wall across Germany plus the fortified Czech border did indeed keep the subject peoples of East Europe from escaping to freedom." So a wall I could pass through with ease by showing a passport (didn't even need a visa) can keep half of Europe under repression - feckin' idiotic. Joe is right that the wall also had an economic reason of course; the authorities in East Germany were attempting to break away from a system that had caused two wars and establish a new system The U.S. poured money into West Berlin making it a showpiece to attract defectors and sow dissention - rightly or wrongly the Government took measures to prevent that- the two Germanys were in fact two separate countries and were treated as such. One of the facts of Irish history was the smuggling that went on between the Six Counties and the Republic, especially during the Emergency It wasn't a comparable situation of course - you weren't faced with two hostile armed camps, as was the case in the Germanys - there were many more factors involved This, as far as I can make out is a fair SUMMING UP by Canadian writer, Stephen Gowans covering most of the factors that gave rise to the wall - far more sensible that the idea of keeping half a continent enslaved. "Good heavens Jim Carroll has actually got this thread on to the Arab/Israeli Conflict." No I did not, and it was not my intention - somebody mentioned a "Trump-like wall - I pointed out that Israel had one as well. Our usual bunch of atrocity deniers took it from there and jumped to the defence of their favourite terroist state. This thread drift is nothing whatever to do with me - but I don't goo in for ignoring one means of repression while condemning another as some people do. I'm getting more than a little pissed of by people who maake the discussion of a nuclear facilitated, untried war criminal and human rights abuser a no-go area with constant attempts at censorship - I'm beginning to beieve they have something to hide!!!!. "Don't mention Israel" has become as much a standing joke as has "don't mention the wall" " compelled to put the interests of the state they are responsible for governing before the desires, wishes and freedom of the people, with one marked exception" I know it is a waste of time asking you for evidence of this, but - well - here goes - do you have any evidence of this? Where have there been any major signs of opposition against Castro's governance of Cuba - armed soldiers on the streets - mass rioting - strikes - organised opposition - or were the Cuban people all brainwashed and forced into submission - just as Irish children were "all brainwashed to make them hate Britain". Perhaps those interviewed about his death gave their interviews knowing that there was a sniper waiting to mown them down if they said the wrong thing!! Cuba has been in a virtual state of siege lasting 50 years imposed by a State that has been proved to have no compunction in sending troops in with horrific anti-personnel weapons, should the opportunity arise - that is what real repression looks like. Cuba has been unable to develop, economically or politically for the entire length of that time due to not being to sell its products to the degree of giving its people anything other than a basic standard of living - no industrial development essential to modern progress - that is what I call repression in the extreme - imposed by a foreign power. Sure - of course there were defections - why woudn't there be with the richest nation in the world just next door, both threatening and offerning inducements to leave. None of these people want to deal with the invasion - the assassination attempts - the embargo - the constant threat of emigrés who have encouraged the U.S. to try another invasion in order to "destroy free medicine and education and return cuba to its rightful owners" - the handful of wealthy families and the American companies who owned most of the land. The First actions of the new Cuban leaders was to establish excellent free health and education systems and redistribute the land to people who had originally worked it but never owned it - how ******* despotic of them. If you want to make your case about a repressive State - make it by taking all the facts into consideration - including the fact that the only concentration camp in Cuba is that run by The United States. We saw how repressive and security conscious the U.S. became after 9/11 - try multiplying that event by fifty years and see what you come up with. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Teribus Date: 03 Dec 16 - 02:39 AM Thanks for that footnote by way of explanation Joe. I see that he has raised the 3,200 again so my prediction is he'll be wittering on about bulldozers in the not too distant future. However on the thread topic of Fidel Castro it is nice to know that as both yourself and Jim appear to be appreciative of his efforts that you put forward and accept that Governments are by reality compelled to put the interests of the state they are responsible for governing before the desires, wishes and freedom of the people, with one marked exception - Israel - who built their wall to protect its citizens from suicide bombers and sniper attacks (As a solution it was extremely effective). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Dec 16 - 10:45 PM Looks like I need to go back to Israel and see for myself. I haven't been there since 1999. At the time, the Palestinians had a big casino in Jericho that made a lot of money from Jewish Israeli gamblers taking the bus down from Jerusalem. I imagine the casino hasn't done very well since then. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 02 Dec 16 - 10:21 PM The wall made it impossible for many Palestinians to go to work or shopping, or to visit family and friends on the other side of the wall. From Haaretz: "The number of Palestinians from the West Bank working in Israel both legally and illegally doubled in the past four years to about 92,000 in 2014, in many cases displacing overseas guest workers, the Bank of Israel said yesterday. The government has been easing the entry of West Bank Palestinians into Israel, for instance increasing the number of overnight-stay permits to around 14,000 from 10,000 last year. The West Bank economy has benefited, too, from growing employment in Israel, the bank noted. According to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, Palestinians working in Israel made up 11.7% of the Palestinian West Bank workforce last year and their wages in 2013 were equal to 12.3% of the West Bank's gross domestic product." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Dec 16 - 09:34 PM I suppose there's no hope of getting the discussion back to the topic of Fidel Castro, but at least we had a pretty good discussion of him before it moved across the sea to Israel. I think there are valid arguments on both sides of the Palestine issue. It's true that the wall has helped curtail the frequent bombings that were taking place in Israel, and I do believe that was a valid concern for the Israelis. But on the other hand, the wall was detrimental to the lives of the vast majority of residents of the Palestinian territory who were not guilty of any participation in the bombings. The wall made it impossible for many Palestinians to go to work or shopping, or to visit family and friends on the other side of the wall. Same with the wall in Berlin. The border in Berlin was the most permeable border in Europe until the Berlin Wall was erected in 1961. Until then, Berliners worked and shopped and lived on both sides of the border, and had friends and family on both sides. The Wall was built mostly for economic reasons - East Germans were leaving in droves, and this created severe instability in the workforce. Stabilizing the workforce was a valid concern for the GDR (German Democratic Republic/DDR). But the wall caused the same serious problems for innocent people that the wall in Israel caused. And, by the way, the Trump Wall would cause similar problems on the U.S.-Mexico border. There are still many people who commute across the border to or from Mexico daily to work - but it's getting more and more difficult. Same thing applies to the U.S.-Canada border, especially for auto industry workers in Detroit and Windsor. And the same thing will soon apply to the borders between the UK and the EU. Both Israel and the DDR could argue that they needed their walls for basic survival, and that's a valid argument. The Castro regime could argue the same for restricting emigration from Cuba. [Ha! I got Cuba back into the picture....] But this is an issue. At various times all through history, nations have done things to prevent mass migration of their own people. One could argue that these measures are for the common good of survival of the nation, but is that justification enough? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:06 PM The people killed on 9/11 were not refugees. If you wish to challenge Jim's point about the biggest single massacre of unarmed refugees, then you need to give us figures for massacres of unarmed refugees, not stacks of figures (unreadable to boot) about different kinds of atrocities or war tragedies. Odd that you should need to be told that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Dec 16 - 03:47 PM Jim, Don't be **** insane - a shor wall to keep in a half a continent - "the Socialist sixth of the World" You really do live in La-La land, don't you? The 900 mile wall across Germany plus the fortified Czech border did indeed keep the subject peoples of East Europe from escaping to freedom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Teribus Date: 02 Dec 16 - 02:08 PM Good heavens Jim Carroll has actually got this thread on to the Arab/Israeli Conflict. "This thread is about Fidel Castro. Messages on other subjects will be deleted. And that's a threat, too. What's wrong with threats? They explain beforehand the consequences of your actions." -Joe-
-Joe= |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Dec 16 - 02:05 PM Compare to Syria- Time Period Pro-government forces Anti-government forces Civilians Grand Total (inc.unidentified) 2011 2012 2013 52,290 killed[25] (2013: 30,239)[26] 29,083 killed[25] (2013: 18,812)[26] 46,266 killed[27] (2013: 22,436)[28] 2011: 7,841 killed[29] 2012: 49,294 killed[29] 2013: 73,447 killed[29] 2014 25,160 killed 32,726 killed 17,790 killed 76,021 killed[30] 2015 17,686 killed 24,010 killed 13,249 killed 55,219 killed[31] January 2016 1,599 killed 1,687 killed 1,345 killed 4,680 killed[32] February 2016 1,442 killed 2,209 killed 1,109 killed 4,802 killed[33] March 2016 827 killed 1,232 killed 588 killed 2,658 killed[34] April 2016 990 killed 1,263 killed 859 killed 3,116 killed[35] May 2016 1,318 killed 2,669 killed 917 killed 4,927 killed[36] June 2016 1,435 killed 2,139 killed 1,208 killed 4,823 killed[37] July 2016 1,291 killed 1,882 killed 1,590 killed 4,794 killed[38] August 2016 1,311 killed 1,845 killed 1,289 killed 4,475 killed[39] September 2016 987 killed 1,302 killed 1,228 killed 3,686 killed[40] October 2016 970 killed 1,720 killed 1,343 killed 4,527 killed[41] November 2016 1,006 killed 1,656 killed 1,279 killed 3,954 killed[42] Cumulative 2016 13,176 killed 19,604 killed 12,755 killed 46,442 killed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War Where do you get 3200????? The only number like that you have previously presented was shown to be false, many times. In ONE day, Islamist terrorists killed about that number on 9/11 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:54 PM What Steve just said - single massacres Brucie - 3,500 in three nights None of those on your list specify a single massacre, unarmed or refugee By your reckoning we would have to count the 30,000 Palestinians killed by Israel Finished here - don't feed the troll lads - he's stone deaf Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:46 PM 2nd list has civilians broken out- Note number killed by other Palestinians and by Jordan. How many are Israel accused of killing? Has to be at least 3200 civilians, just to surpass Islamist's attack on 9/11. And who besides Jimmie boyo is accusing them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:39 PM I didn't mean to aim two pleases. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:38 PM Er, please filter your list to include only unarmed refugees, please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:28 PM And just Palestinians: (since you have stated Jews are not human enough for you to count casualties) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:16 PM In case you care (which I doubt) Not including recent conflicts like Syria. Conflicts since 1950 with over 10,000 Fatalities (all figures rounded)* 1 40,000,000 Red China, 1949-76 (outright killing, manmade famine, Gulag) 2 10,000,000 Soviet Bloc: late Stalinism, 1950-53; post-Stalinism, to 1987 (mostly Gulag) 3 4,000,000 Ethiopia, 1962-92: Communists, artificial hunger, genocides 4 3,800,000 Zaire (Congo-Kinshasa): 1967-68; 1977-78; 1992-95; 1998-present 5 2,800,000 Korean war, 1950-53 6 1,900,000 Sudan, 1955-72; 1983-2006 (civil wars, genocides) 7 1,870,000 Cambodia: Khmer Rouge 1975-79; civil war 1978-91 8 1,800,000 Vietnam War, 1954-75 9 1,800,000 Afghanistan: Soviet and internecine killings, Taliban 1980-2001 10 1,250,000 West Pakistan massacres in East Pakistan (Bangladesh 1971) 11 1,100,000 Nigeria, 1966-79 (Biafra); 1993-present 12 1,100,000 Mozambique, 1964-70 (30,000) + after retreat of Portugal 1976-92 13 1,000,000 Iran-Iraq-War, 1980-88 14 900,000 Rwanda genocide, 1994 15 875,000 Algeria: against France 1954-62 (675,000); between Islamists and the government 1991-2006 (200,000) 16 850,000 Uganda, 1971-79; 1981-85; 1994-present 17 650,000 Indonesia: Marxists 1965-66 (450,000); East Timor, Papua, Aceh etc, 1969-present (200,000) 18 580,000 Angola: war against Portugal 1961-72 (80,000); after Portugal's retreat (1972-2002) 19 500,000 Brazil against its Indians, up to 1999 20 430,000 Vietnam, after the war ended in 1975 (own people; boat refugees) 21 400,000 Indochina: against France, 1945-54 22 400,000 Burundi, 1959-present (Tutsi/Hutu) 23 400,000 Somalia, 1991-present 24 400,000 North Korea up to 2006 (own people) 25 300,000 Kurds in Iraq, Iran, Turkey, 1980s-1990s 26 300,000 Iraq, 1970-2003 (Saddam against minorities) 27 240,000 Colombia, 1946-58; 1964-present 28 200,000 Yugoslavia, Tito regime, 1944-80 29 200,000 Guatemala, 1960-96 30 190,000 Laos, 1975-90 31 175,000 Serbia against Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosovo, 1991-1999 32 150,000 Romania, 1949-99 (own people) 33 150,000 Liberia, 1989-97 34 140,000 Russia against Chechnya, 1994-present 35 150,000 Lebanon civil war, 1975-90 36 140,000 Kuwait War, 1990-91 37 130,000 Philippines: 1946-54 (10,000); 1972-present (120,000) 38 130,000 Burma/Myanmar, 1948-present 39 100,000 North Yemen, 1962-70 40 100,000 Sierra Leone, 1991-present 41 100,000 Albania, 1945-91 (own people) 42 80,000 Iran, 1978-79 (revolution) 43 75,000 Iraq, 2003-present (domestic) 44 75,000 El Salvador, 1975-92 45 70,000 Eritrea against Ethiopia, 1998-2000 46 68,000 Sri Lanka, 1997-present 47 60,000 Zimbabwe, 1966-79; 1980-present 48 60,000 Nicaragua, 1972-91 (Marxists/natives etc,) 49 51,000 Arab-Israeli conflict 1950-present 50 50,000 North Vietnam, 1954-75 (own people) 51 50,000 Tajikistan, 1992-96 (secularists against Islamists) 52 50,000 Equatorial Guinea, 1969-79 53 50,000 Peru, 1980-2000 54 50,000 Guinea, 1958-84 55 40,000 Chad, 1982-90 56 30,000 Bulgaria, 1948-89 (own people) 57 30,000 Rhodesia, 1972-79 58 30,000 Argentina, 1976-83 (own people) 59 27,000 Hungary, 1948-89 (own people) 60 26,000 Kashmir independence, 1989-present 61 25,000 Jordan government vs. Palestinians, 1970-71 (Black September) 62 22,000 Poland, 1948-89 (own people) 63 20,000 Syria, 1982 (against Islamists in Hama) 64 20,000 Chinese-Vietnamese war, 1979 65 19,000 Morocco: war against France, 1953-56 (3,000) and in Western Sahara, 1975-present (16,000) 66 18,000 Congo Republic, 1997-99 67 10,000 South Yemen, 1986 (civil war) *Sources: Z. Brzezinski, Out of Control: Global Turmoil on the Eve of the Twenty-first Century, 1993; S. Courtois, Le Livre Noir du Communism, 1997; G. Heinsohn, Lexikon der Völkermorde, 1999, 2nd ed.; G. Heinsohn, Söhne und Weltmacht, 2006, 8th ed.; R. Rummel, Death by Government, 1994; M. Small and J.D. Singer, Resort to Arms: International and Civil Wars 1816-1980, 1982; M. White, "Death Tolls for the Major Wars and Atrocities of the Twentieth Century," 2003. Mao Tse-Tung, by far the greatest post-1950 murderer. This grisly inventory finds the total number of deaths in conflicts since 1950 numbering about 85,000,000. Of that sum, the deaths in the Arab-Israeli conflict since 1950 include 32,000 deaths due to Arab state attacks and 19,000 due to Palestinian attacks, or 51,000 in all. Arabs make up roughly 35,000 of these dead and Jewish Israelis make up 16,000. These figures mean that deaths in Arab-Israeli fighting since 1950 amount to just 0.06 percent of the total number of deaths in all conflicts in that period. More graphically, only 1 out of about 1,700 persons killed in conflicts since 1950 has died due to Arab-Israeli fighting. (Adding the 11,000 killed in the Israeli war of independence, 1947-49, made up of 5,000 Arabs and 6,000 Israeli Jews, does not significantly alter these figures.) In a different perspective, some 11,000,000 Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000, or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:11 PM Jimmie boyo, "And who worlds the world record for facilitating the largest single massacre of unarmed refugees?" Unless you actually LOOK at the world- Try Cambodia Rwanda Jordan Syria Just since 1967... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:36 PM All answered - a cold war load of bollocks that has nothing to do with what has happened It doesn't mention half-century blockades, assassination attempts on presidents and foreign invasions Nor does it mention the sewer level country Cuba was driven to before Bastista got the boot Selective friggin' nonsense. Racism's a new one on me - that came when Communism fell. What answer do to want Robo? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:28 PM "The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. " they have taken their cue from the Israelis who insist that all their actions are the responsibility of the Jewish people - how antisemitic can you get? Whatever any charter might threaten, go count who actually does the most killings, destroys the most hospitals and schools, carries out the most invasions is responsible for the most civilian deaths - mainly women and children and who has usurped the most land. And who worlds the world record for facilitating the largest single massacre of unarmed refugees? Not on paper but in actual fact. Hamas is an ill-armed, badly trained tinpot defence against Nuclear facilitated Israeli State Terrorism - if the Israelis say it's all the Jews fault, who are Hamas to argue? Israel has paintred a target on every Jew on the planet in order to keep itself from facing crimes against humanity and war crimes. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: robomatic Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:20 PM Since none of my points have been addressed in a straightforward manner: Cult of Personality Inability of Cuba to pay for the programs so admired by some of Castro's admirers Tendency of Castro to do the Soviet Union's bidding while for some reason his defiance of the U.S. is supposed to be salutory. Strong tendency of Communist regimes to repress their populations' human freedoms while ruining their economies (Cuba, Venezuela, Korea, Soviet Union, et.al.) Notion that having your health care looked after is a great notion, (especially if you are cattle). Reminder of a quote from the previous Castro thread that got ended for the same insult-ridden drift that is occurring in this thread: "Both Communism and Capitalism give you a kick in the pants, but in the Communist system they make you applaud while in the Capitalist system they allow you to scream." I'm going to throw in another riposte to the notion that somehow Castro's Communists and Communism in general are a source of moral order. I got to visit the Soviet Union and there were prostitutes there as well. There was racism there as well. The totalitarian nature of the order was to suppress not the fact, but the acknowledgment of the fact. One of the posters has started to go ad hominem on me which is where I declare victory and move on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Greg F. Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:09 PM Are cow farts anti-semitic by definition? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:07 PM "East and West Germany had the same start." It most certainly did not West Germany received loans from the allies of $1.45 billion - (the equivalent of 14.5 billion in 2006) The East decided to nationalise industry for the benefit of the entire population and received no help at all - the Soviet Union was in no position to bale them out given the wartime damage and number of casualties there. "As you say, you had no trouble getting in" East Germany was one of the most spied on countries in the East - by the time we got there the Wall had made a difference and access had become easier. "The wall was to keep the Germans, Poles, Hungarians and Czecks in." Don't be **** insane - a shor wall to keep in a half a continent - "the Socialist sixth of the World" You really do live in La-La land, don't you? Barmy - you couldn't make you people up!!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:58 AM btw, 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:57 AM Jimmie boyo, Ever looked at the Hamas Charter? "The Hamas credo is not just anti-Israel, but profoundly anti-Semitic with racism at its core. The Hamas Charter reads like a modern-day 'Mein Kampf.'" According to the charter, Jewish people "have only negative traits and are presented as planning to take over the world."[27] The charter claims that the Jews deserve God's/Allah's enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets.[28] It quotes a saying of Muhammad from a hadith: "The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.' Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.)[29] The charter goes further in detailing how Jihad against the Jews is a duty. "The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters."[30] The charter contains references to anti-Semitic canards, such as the assertion that through shrewd manipulation of imperial countries and secret societies, Jews were behind a wide range of events and disasters going as far back in history as the French Revolution. The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews, without distinction of whether they are in Israel or elsewhere.[31] It presents the Arab-Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam, adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom." YOU have stated most of this in your posts- nice to know you have such a ... "high-valued" source for your anti- Semitism |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:52 AM East Germany was a poor country that never really got over the war. East and West Germany had the same start. It was also on the borders of the "Free West" and highly susceptible to foreign interference. As you say, you had no trouble getting in. The wall was to keep the Germans, Poles, Hungarians and Czecks in. Nothing to do with "foreign interference!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:34 AM And we'll certainly forget the rapidly shrinking MAPS of Arab territory Totally fake, designed to appeal to um.....let's just say..... people like you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:23 AM "the wall is there to PREVENT the effort by Palestinians to "ethnically cleanse Jews in order to make a monotheistic State "" Yeah - sure it is We'll ignore the massacres, the ethnic cleansing, the destruction of homes hospitals and schools, Apartheid Israel, the ethnic cleansing, the burning to death of children followed by celebrating having done it - and the chemical weapons - and all the other crimes committed by the Israeli regime and blamed on the Jews. And we'll certainly forget the rapidly shrinking MAPS of Arab territory C'mon my little anonymous Troll - none of this has any place in a discussion on Castro. Now - let me guess your position on that one - wonder if the Bookies is till open) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:02 AM Hell's Bells Jimmie, look at the ARAB Christian population that was ethnically cleaned out between 1948 and 1967, in addition to the Jews. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: beardedbruce Date: 02 Dec 16 - 11:00 AM Sorry, Jimmie boyo, the wall is there to PREVENT the effort by Palestinians to "ethnically cleanse Jews in order to make a monotheistic State " Take a look at Jewish populations in Arab countries 1940 to present- almost none left Look at Arab population in Israel- far greater than in 1940. You really need to look at the world, and not the inside of your colon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 02 Dec 16 - 10:48 AM The only thing that will prevent that is to stop stealing land Lol......you can't steal something that belongs to you in the first place......try again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Dec 16 - 09:23 AM "Where is this "right" laid down? " Never laid down but the right to work came with jobs - all gone, no more tomorrow - destruction of home industries put paid to them. Now, you clowns have probably closed the door to Europeans thanks to your little Englanderism - so anybody can no longer throw thair legs over Norman'Tebbitt's bike "Where is this "right" laid down?" It was fought for then destroyed by Maggie's fascism - prior to Trades Unionism it was illegal to combine - that was what was fought for - freedom to join a Union that could make a difference. Your 'Coloud Cuckoo' land description underlines the uncaring predatory nature of your politics - thank ylou for saving me the trouble of having to describe it myself. "Fidel Castro headed up a regime that was hard "Marxist-Leninist"" One more time - no he wasn't - he and Guevara were Natiopnal Liberationists who sought haelp from the Soviet Union in defence of the destructive behaviour of the U.S. towards the new regime - go buy a book if you can't work it out for yourself - and please lay off the John Birch/Joe McCarthy clichés - they are nor even amunsing any more, and certainly lacking in imagination. The rest is made-up-on-the-spot garbage, as is your wont. "The world knows the purpose of the wall, it is to keep the West Bank Arabs from killing Jews." No it isn't - it is there to ethnically cleanse Arabs in order to make a monotheistic State How does cutting off farmers from their means of livelihood prevent the killing of Jews? TThe only thing that will prevent that is to stop stealing land and killing Arabs. Conversation over - it has no place here - one of your own fanatics (Keith) raised the question of a Wall in the first place - (or perhaps ytyou think that certain walls should have a wall built around them so they cannot be discussed) Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Teribus Date: 02 Dec 16 - 09:01 AM "Most of the things working people fought for over the centuries to better their lot have now gone" Gone? Where? How? When? " - the right to work," Where is this "right" laid down? When was it ever defined? As far as I know there is nothing stopping people from working, never has been. To get a job you prepare yourself and make yourself as "marketable" and attractive to potential employers as possible. "the right to have a degree of security of employment" Where is this "right" laid down? When was it ever defined? It is not a right it is an aspiration. a voice in the workplace Where is this "right" laid down? When was it ever defined? Again not a right at all, it makes sense as long as all concerned act responsibly and remember that it is the Company that provides the jobs and the wages and that if anything is done to make the company non-competitive then that security of employment goes straight out of the window. "social housing" Tell us about the centuries of social housing Jim, according to the History of Social Housing in the UK does not pre-date 1919. "a reasonably comfortable standard of living after retirement..." An aspiration not a right and one that has to be prepared by the individual. In this cloud-cuckoo land of yours Jim, who is it that gets to decide and define what constitutes "a reasonably comfortable standard of living"? Fidel Castro headed up a regime that was hard "Marxist-Leninist", there was nothing watered down about it, it did however have to make certain accommodations during the Gorbachev era up until the collapse of the USSR. Cuba is now "adjusting" to accommodate what suits those who run the People's Republic of China (Their latest sponsor). Cuba and Castro hoped Hugo Chavez's Venezuela would help bail them out, but Chavez and now Maduro have made such a mess of Venezuela that they can be of no help at all in propping up Castro's Cuba. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: bobad Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:09 AM A similar wall now exists in Israel - is that to keep people in or out? What took you so long? Can't keep your obsession in check for too long, can you. The world knows the purpose of the wall, it is to keep the West Bank Arabs from killing Jews. It has saved countless lives on both sides yet people like you try to twist it's purpose in order to demonize Israel. You should be ashamed of yourself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:56 AM "but a wall such as Trump could only dream of had to be built to stop them escaping, and many were killed trying." A similar wall now exists in Israel - is that to keep people in or out? East Germany was a poor country that never really got over the war. It was also on the borders of the "Free West" and highly susceptible to foreign interference. I want through that wall without difficulty - on a train - it was no different and probably a damn sight easier that if I wanted to fly from Shannon to America - I've never seen such security in my life - and up to fairly recently, so many American soldiers - some of them guarding untried suspects on their way to such health centres as Guantanamo. These walls have two sides Keith Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:29 AM Life in East Germany was not awful, but a wall such as Trump could only dream of had to be built to stop them escaping, and many were killed trying. Access to good free health care is about the most important freedom there is. I value it above most things my country has to offer, but few countries provide it. It was not enough to stop large numbers of Cubans seeking to escape. US did not trade with Cuba, but neither did it blockade it. It had another super power supporting it and free trade with most of the world. But still they sought to escape. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:14 AM Hope to see more of you, then, Joe! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Jim Carroll Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:14 AM "IF capitalism is tempered by concern for the common good, it can work pretty well. -Joe-" I have little doubt that many of the people who founded Capitalism - the people who put into motion the Industrial Revolution - had the common good in mind. Capitalism has moved away from that, has abandoned any pretence of operating for people as a whole, and is now dedicated to betting the lot of the very wealthy Most of the things working people fought for over the centuries to better their lot have now gone - the right to work, the right to have a degree of security of employment, a voice in the workplace, social housing, a reasonably comfortable standard of living after retirement... all gone or going, despite the fact that technology has put it all within our grasp. The only thing that remains is our (Britain's) health service, which is constantly under threat, and even staying healthy has become divided on a class basis again, as it was before the war, Society is moving backward as technology advances - we have become victims of progress rather than beneficiaries. The Communist Dream failed - for a whole bunch of reasons, internal as well as external, but the people of extremely poor and repressed countries like Cuba benefited from a watered-down version of it. Bobad and the like point to Stalin as an example of Communism - he wasn't - he was an extreme example of what was going wrong and his victims were just as much of the left as they were of the right. Stalin's greatest opponent was a socialist dreamer who ended up with an ice-pick buried in his head in Mexico - these people of the right conveniently forget that when they are defending their own deformed and decayinbg system. They also forget that the Right had their own version of Stalin -in Nazi Germany - a product of German Industrial Capitalism seeking to expand. But as they say here "don't mention the war" Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016) From: Steve Shaw Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:23 PM Is bobad really so delicate as to need you to defend him against a pretty anodyne post by the standards of this forum, Joe? Just thinking of the times you haven't defended ME against him when he calls me a Jew-hater... Or maybe you just know that I don't want you to...
-Joe- |
