BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 09:10 PM

My, my, Jim. That sounds so ideological. Now, see if you can make sense out of what I have to say. IF capitalism is tempered by concern for the common good, it can work pretty well.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:21 PM

"Capitalism and socialism are both logical, comprehensive economic systems."
Capitalism (Capital) has nothing to do with community or people - it is based entirely on economy - the power ranks of society survive from "the leavingss from the rich man's table" -as the Bible puts it.
Socialism iws what it says it is - a philosophy in which wealth is distributed for the benefit of the whole community - it is a philosophy rather than an economic system.
Bobad - your description is a caricature dreamed up in Cold War times and bears no relation to what happens - certainly in the half dozen I spent time in
I was in Russia in 1964 - 47 years after the Revolution.
Since that time it had overcome the results of World War One, had fought a civil War in which 14 Countries had intervened, has survived the German invasion of World War Two in which they lost 20 million people and in which two of their Major Cities, Moscow and Lenigrad had suffered devastating destructive sieges and had survived the ravages of Stalinism.
In that period, they had developed from being a series of semi Feudal states into a wealthy world power, challenging the world both economically and scientifically.
One of the trips we were invited on by friends we made was to the concentration camp where Jews, Communists, Trades Unionists and Gypsies were gassed to death - by Capitalis Nazi Germany
The idea that any Government could possibly suppress and terrorise such a people who had suffered so much - largely at the hands of right-wing capitalism, it utter nonsense.
The people we met still referred to the war as "the Great Patriotic War".
Sure - there was poverty, but none of the grinding and degrading poverty you can find in the Appalachians.
What has it gained since getting its freedom - PUTIN.
The elderly people we visited in the Arbat in Moscow were all evicted when "freedom" came - to make room for luxury homes for the new rich.
I was in Prague on the day the Czech border was opened after the Russian invasion.
The students there found us somewhere to stay and we went with them each night to argue with the Russian troops still billeted in the Park
The Students were not demanding the end of communist rule but an acceleration of it under Dubcék
I have thought about going back, but I have deliberately not done so since a workmate told me of how he was crossing Wenceslas Square when he was approached by of a girl of about twelve who put her hand in his pocket, started playing with his prick and asked him for money - free Czechoslovakia
Four of us drove across Yugoslavia and spent time in Belgrade and eventually in the countryside - no great difference to Czechoslovakia and Russia - both recovering from a devastating war, with a growing economy and a relatively happy people
What dide "freedom" bring - a horrific genocidal war between people Tito had kept apart throughout the time of his rule.
Hungary - a beutiful city full of warm friendly people - Bulgaia the same.
Today's Hungart=y has a Fascist Prime Minister.....
You people are characters from spy fiction or comic books - s.f.a. to do with real life.
"they were the ones who paid for Castro's vaunted programs. "
The Soviet Union bought part of the sugar crop which barely helped the people stay alive, far from paying for programmes
Cuba needed to industrialise - The United States ascertained that it did not.
You are as much of a caricature as your trollish mate.
I never went to Cuba - I ahd planned to go, but cancelled when my father died.
Four of The Critics Group went - your description of what Cubal was like, is a joke - an American Dream for the gullible.
The "vaunted programmes" you disparage were to feed the Cuban people who were driven into poverty by the U.S. blockade
Isdn'tr it strange how none of you people ever mention the State Cuba was in under the influence of the U.S., the attempts to starve the people into submission, the hundreds of attempts on the pesident, th Pig's ear invasion at the aptly named Bay of Pigs and the ongoing attempts to interfere in another nation's freedoms - it's as if it never happened - or didn't happen - any takers on that one lads??
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:14 PM

that quote by bobad from Solidarity gives a very misleading picture of the nature of that website.

Bubo? Misleading??? Heaven forfend!!! Whooda thunkit!!

---

Be nice, Greggie... -Joe O-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 07:48 PM

People should be aware that that quote by bobad from Solidarity gives a very misleading picture of the nature of that website.

Apart from which it's a very misleading quote so far as the facts go. The US did not restrict its efforts to hit the Cuban economy and the Cuban people to embargoing trade between the two countries. It strenuously attempted to force other countries to do the same. It was only in 2008 that the EU ended years of sanctions against Cuba, and US afiliated companies in all countries have consistently been compelled to be part of the embargo, both directly and indirectly.

And now it seems very much on the cards that the partial easing of the embargo in recent years will be put into reverse. Indeed there is a real posssibility of direct efforts by the new US administration to bring to an end Cuba's intransigence, and to impose a client regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 07:41 PM

I dunno, ake. I guess it's impossible for me to take such a negative view of human nature. Yes, when society gets complex, society's systems begin to fail - that happens under every economic and political system. But that presents a challenge for somebody to meet. People meet those challenges on a small scale every day. The "tipping point" to bring about substantial change, is often not all that great.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 07:36 PM

Capitalism, especially Capitalism in decline, has no redeeming features.

All nods to patriotism, granting of minority rights, limited personal freedom(at a price), are a sham to hide the dirty face of financial aspiration.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 07:15 PM

Ake says: I've always held the view that if we adopt a Socialist(as opposed to a "liberal" Capitalist system), we will all be worse off financially than we are now.

Capitalism and socialism are both logical, comprehensive economic systems. Either one will work pretty well, and neither is inherently better or worse. But both must be tempered by community spirit and a concern for the common good - one might call it patriotism. At least, that's what I think patriotism ought to be.

But if socialism or capitalism are overwhelmed by selfishness, neither one with work very well. Trust and generosity are essential for a workable society.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 07:15 PM

Well Joe, I had family living under Communism in Eastern Europe and, of course they "told jokes and loved their families and went on picnics and rode bicycles, and had a reasonably good quality of life." I think they might have taken issue with your "reasonably good quality of life" though. The most common themes we invariably heard from them were fear and scarcity.

The fear was of being turned in to the authorities for being overheard saying something negative about the regime which would get you labelled as a dissident and possibly disappeared into the gulags. This had the population living under a constant cloud of suspicion of their friends, neighbours and even family members as no one knew who might be an informant. An interesting outgrowth of the oppression was the development of a vocabulary of euphemisms, often quite creative and comical, used when discussing politics amongst friends.

The lineups and empty store shelves of food, toiletries and other items of daily living have been well documented. This naturally gave way to a black market economy and created a class divide between those with "connections" and those without. Those without were often exploited by those with just to have access to common everyday items like laundry soap or flour.

So like you say Joe they "told jokes and loved their families and went on picnics and rode bicycles" mostly to maintain a semblance of normality while awaiting the end of Communism which they hoped and prayed for every day.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:44 PM

We know Cuba wasn't isolated from the Soviets, they were the ones who paid for Castro's vaunted programs. Castro may have cheered members of this forum by his cocking a snook at the U.S. but he toadied to the USSR right enough. And then the Soviets fell, which kind of makes it hard to argue that the only thing to ruin Castro's big idea was his ill mannered neighbor to the north.

P.S. Didn't Canada trade with Cuba? I thought Havana cigars were available there, tho I could be wrongo.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:33 PM

Rave on, Bubo - now what about

01 Dec 16 - 05:09 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:17 PM

This from Solidarity: "an independent socialist organization dedicated to forming a broad regrouping of the U.S. left.": "Cuba and the United States have been economically isolated from each other but, despite the strenuous efforts of the U.S. government, Cuba has not been isolated from most of the rest of the globe. The main causes of Cuba's poverty must surely be domestic."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:59 PM

A question
If america or Britain had been blockaded for half a century and if there had been 365 attempts on the President and the Pime Minieterss lives - how "free would these countries have been?
Can't be to difficult to answer
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:31 PM

I've always held the view that if we adopt a Socialist(as opposed to a "liberal" Capitalist system), we will all be worse off financially than we are now.
That does not take into account that Western Capitalism is in decline and even if we retain the status quo we will certainly get much poorer, without the positives of proper nationalised services.

Furthermore, the two options above are not really options at all, as we are being systematically deserted by Capitalism...All investment is moving to the East, that was always the purpose of globalisation. The corporate Capitalists realised long ago that the Western "liberal" democracies were no longer able to compete ...and acted accordingly

I feel very sorry for our young people, whom I see stacking shelves and collecting shopping trolley's most of them quite well educated and intelligent, but bereft of any sort of future.

Socialism could provide that future though it would not provide many millionaires....but the right would always cry about personal freedom and the useful idiots of the "liberal" left would cry Fascism and minority rights.   

Meanwhile the shelves will be stacked while the food is available and the rumble of the trolley wheels will be a requiem for a lost generation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:24 PM

Life in East Germany in the 1970s, was not awful.

Life in a paddock is not awful, unless and until. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:09 PM

Well,Bubo, if Cuba 1957 was such a capitalist pardise, and the people there were all living la vida bueña, how is it that Castro & his program had any traction with the populace (aside from the Batista gangsters, that is?)

Or are you suggesting that they were all as ignorant and stupid as the current crop of Trumpistas?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 04:42 PM

I'm not actually seeing anyone romanticising Cuba here.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 04:30 PM

Bobad says: Cuba is basically East Germany with palm trees and I don't think too many people romanticize East Germany so why Cuba?

I think that's a pretty good comparison, Bobad. I spent two years studying East Germany in the 1970s as an intelligence analyst in the U.S. Army, and I have studied Communist governments for personal interest ever since. I don't think anyone here romanticizes Communist nations, but the reality is nowhere near as bad as anti-Communist propaganda seeks to convince us. Life in East Germany in the 1970s, was not awful. Most people told jokes and loved their families and went on picnics and rode bicycles, and had a reasonably good quality of life. Communist Party officials were not evil people, and they had a concern for the welfare of citizens of their nation. Life was about as regimented as my life in the U.S. Army was at the time. Life in East Germany wasn't any worse than the lives of most people in the U.S. and Europe at the time. Yes, it was tough on those who wanted to fight against the government. Yes, there were human rights abuses against dissenters.

Go to Standing Rock and see what's done to dissenters in the U.S. THEN let's see who's romanticizing.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 03:28 PM

"Of course not, an example was made early on of what happens to those who oppose the regime."
So the coasts, beaches and roads were over-rum with armed guards keeping dissidents in order
If you claim that to be the case - prove it.
"Archive project"
You put up a site based in Washington run by a group of untraceable people as evidence to counteract the facts you have been given
Give us a break!!
Annswer the points I have made rather than linking us to a propaganda site based in the Capital of a country that has been persecuting Cuba for fifty years.
"He is being mourned by government decree "
Hat is not how it is being reported on your televisions
This is straight out of the 1960 Cold War
You have the situation as documented - disprove it with facts not American propaganda
Which of the faxcts I have outlined are untrue - if they are - prove they are.
The facts man- the facts, both of you - I've linked you to plenty - where are yours
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 02:43 PM

there was no sign of popular revolt throughout Castro's lifetime

Of course not, an example was made early on of what happens to those who oppose the regime.

The Archive Project can be likened to the 1999 "Black Book of Communism," which documented the world-wide cost of communism, noting that "wherever the millenarian ideology of Communism was established it quickly led to crime, terror and repression." The Castro methodology, Cuba Archive finds, was much like that used in Poland and East Germany, less lethal than Stalin's purges, but equally effective in suppressing opposition.

In the earliest days of the revolution, summary executions established a culture of fear that quickly eliminated most resistance. In the decades that followed, inhumane prison conditions often leading to death, unspeakable torture and privation were enough to keep Cubans cowed.

Counting Castro's Victims


his death has no been greeted by rejoicing - rather - he is being mourned

He is being mourned by government decree and Cubans know well enough by now the consequences of disobeying official government decrees.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 02:09 PM

"Your claims of "terrorism" totally ignore the facts of how Castro was regarded - there was no sign of popular revolt throughout Castro's lifetime and his death has no been greeted by rejoicing - rather - he is being mourned, in contrast to the celebrations among those who did a runner to the U.S."

I did not use the word terrorism despite your "quote".

How Castro was regarded: You make my point for me when you remark that those still in Cuba, in bondage, are constrained to a mourning attitude while those in freedom are free to rejoice.

Remember that after Stalin died, no one celebrated. The miasma of fear surrounding the Soviet Government included that government. There is a reason why Communism has been regarded as "The God That Failed" or why a book on Communist Show Trials was titled as: "Darkness at Noon."

The death of Hugo Chavez, who beggared his country of Venezuela has not resulted in freedom, his party still has a stranglehold on his country. He is still a 'hero'. Venezuela is poorer than ever.

"I'm doing this for the little crippled boy . . . that I crippled!"
-Homer Simpson

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 01:51 PM

......corruption and organized crime and skedaddled before the chickens came home to roost.

Only to be replaced by another organized gang of thieves. A decade ago, Forbes estimated Fidel Castro's personal net worth at $900 million. That's a lot of socialist rationing for one person.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 01:36 PM

Well, Bubo, then there's those Batista tocheslekkers and their fellow travellers who fled Cuba learned well the lessons of history when it came to colonialism and corruption and organized crime and skedaddled before the chickens came home to roost.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 01:24 PM

"But why did so many want to escape?
Because of the propaganda which offered a better life and the fact that the US had imposed a state of Siege lasting fifty years.
Isn't it far more revealing to ask who so many chose to stay - there is no record of massive attempts to either escape or revolt?
Why do so many people emigrate - to get a better life - that's why
America has made sure that Cuba would never be able to provide that and the "free" world stood by and either participated in the blockade or turned a blind eye to what America was doing to an already impoverished (under U.S. influence) Latin American Country for political gain
Surely all this is self-evident?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 01:20 PM

Access to good free health care is about the most important freedom there is.

How much did the freedom to vote really add up to when it came down to a choice between Trump and Clinton? With the winner being the one who got two million fewer votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 01:20 PM

Yes, there was a wealthy middle class of Cubans who fled after Castro took over - they followed their employers to the U.S.

And who could blame them. My wife's own mother and her sisters were orphaned as babies because their parents were murdered by the Bolsheviks for the crime of being the owners of a gristmill. Those who fled Cuba learned well the lessons of history when it came to Communists seizing power by revolution.

Here's what a UNESCO report from 1957 said: "One feature of the Cuban social structure is a large middle class. Cuban workers are more unionized (proportional to the population) than U.S. workers....the average wage for an 8-hour day in Cuba 1957 is higher than for workers in Belgium, Denmark, France and Germany. Cuban labor receives 66.6 per cent of gross national income. In the U.S. the figure is 68 per cent. 44 per cent of Cubans were covered by Social legislation, that's a higher percentage than in the U.S. at the time."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 01:07 PM

But why did so many want to escape?

Why are people all over the face of the globe flocking to ISIS, Profssor?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 01:00 PM


Cuban boat people have been given a very different reception by the USA from that given to those from other places

But why did so many want to escape?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 12:14 PM

"purported health care and literacy rates"
Accepted facts throughout the world, not 'purported'
Cuba has done this despite taking over an open sewer and cleaning it up and having an extremely aggressive neighbour who has imposed a half-century long blockade, carried out a terrorist campaign against the President with a view to overthrowing him and furnishing an armed invasion which turned into a debacle.
One of the first acts was to distribute the land that had been shared by a tiny handful of families and (over half) by American companies - for the first time, many thousands of Cuban families worked their own lands
Despite the efforts of the U.S. to starve the Cubans into submission, the Government distributed what wealth there was so nobody starved.
Cuba remains on a Cold War footage to the present day - no government in the world could operate openly given that situation.
Your claims of "terrorism" totally ignore the facts of how Castro was regarded - there was no sign of popular revolt throughout Castro's lifetime and his death has no been greeted by rejoicing - rather - he is being mourned, in contrast to the celebrations among those who did a runner to the U.S.
The only Gulag in Cuba at present is at Guantanamo, where the neighbour from hell continues to hold uncharged and untried prisoners in inhuman conditions.
The same neighbor has been found to be using torture on similar prisoners elsewhere and has a past reputation of massacring Third World peasants using burning petrol and carcinogenic chemical sprays - not that's what I call demagogy and terrorist despotism - don't you - or does the U.S. have a dispensation from The Pope??
Answers on a postcard please - I don't think!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 11:30 AM

I'm amazed that purported health care and literacy rates are isolated and used to justify the 50 year reign of a demagogue.

Next comes the argument that North Korea has done the same and the deprivations of its chunky hairball of a dictator are worth the brutalization, starvation, and subjugation of its population.

And Zimbabwe has done such a lot to liberate the land from white-held ownership. Leading to the long reign of another freedom-fighter/ demagogue.

All those regimes and more are built on one of the most reprehensible of human traits, the personality cult.

I visited the Soviet Union and noticed that as far as I could tell, every citizen's teeth were looked after. They had nice stainless teeth instead of gaps. It didn't occur to me at the time to wonder how many of those teeth had been knocked out first.

This hagiography of dictators overlooks that the people of said countries are looked after like cattle. They have been medicated and organized for the good of the herd, and the herder. Those who could not be better or act better are in mass graves or the bellies of their owners.

This applies equally to fascists and communists. The extreme right and left wings meet behind the founders' backs and shake hands.

The Tsars and their Orthodox priests kept the Russian people in a state of peasantry for centuries. What freedom lover could be against bringing them down? Who could have foreseen Stalin, mass starvation by the government, and the show trials?

Having seen them, who could support Communism as a road to human progress.

The hardest and best thing to be is a rationalist who can speak to power no matter what color it wears. There was a good line in the BBC's "I Claudius" series about the importance of mankind not losing its sense of smell.

Castro smelled long before he assumed room temperature.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 11:20 AM

... who rule by decree and kill or imprison dissidents

Rather like Trump and flag burners?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 11:18 AM

Yep, Greg, Reagan's Glory Days. Think about that time and how Republicans talk about it.

Yep, delusional clowns, Joe, every last one of 'em; no facts need apply. The warm-up act for Trump.

Think about it? Rather not, likely to bring on an episode clinical depression. But them "Glory Days" ain't gonna hold a candle to the obscene garbage of the next four years.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:58 AM

So you are not saying that Cuba under Batista was not a much better place than under Castro, bodad?

Absolutely, I am simply presenting the other side of a dictatorship which I refuse to romanticize. Cuba is basically East Germany with palm trees and I don't think too many people romanticize East Germany so why Cuba? I don't romanticize dictators who rule by decree and kill or imprison dissidents and put homosexuals into labour camps. YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:16 AM

Cuban boat people have been given a very different reception by the USA from that given to those from other places, notably Haiti. Haitians get treated as economic migrants, and are liable to be deported back to Haiti. Cubans have a much better chance of being defined as political refugees and allowed to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:14 AM

PERMANENT THREATS
ZUN ZUNEO
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:09 AM

"Such desperation was not seen in other Caribbean states.
Not many Carribean states whose president has undergone 330 plus assassination attempts and whose country has lived under a half-century long embargo.
Some people are bound to crack under such strain
PROPAGANDA
PROPAGANDA

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:15 AM

Long after the revolution, large numbers of Cubans, at great risk, sought to leave.
Remember the Camarioca boatlift and airlift, and the Mariel boatlift.

Such desperation was not seen in other Caribbean states.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:15 AM

PRE-REVOLUTIONARY CUBA
LAND REFORM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 12:13 AM

Bobad - I think you're correct that Cuba had a very strong economy during the Batista regime. It's just that the economy was owned by U.S. corporations, who took all the profits back to the U.S.
Yes, there was a wealthy middle class of Cubans who fled after Castro took over - they followed their employers to the U.S.
According to this article (click) the claims of U.S. corporations against Cuba remain unsettled. The were valued at $1.9 billion when they were certified in the 1960s.
And another article from the Boston Globe.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 11:48 PM

So you are not saying that Cuba under Batista was not a much better place than under Castro, bodad? It is rather hard to understand your words in any other way.

"Gross Domestic Product" is an extremely unreliable and controversial measure of how a society is functioning. For example it typically includes the illegal drug industry and prostitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:09 PM

Tell me which bits lead you to think that Cuba was such an amazing place for the ordinary people of Cuba before Castro

Again putting words in my mouth. I put up some hard economic facts, make of them what you will but don't try to demonize me by inferring what I make of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:56 PM

Well, bobad, here's what you said. I'll just put your own words back in your own mouth if that's all right with you.

"Before Castro, Cuba was one of the richest of the 47 Caribbean and Latin American countries, with a Gross Domestic Product that tied with Guatemala's for sixth place."

Now, instead of spewing out your bile before you've engaged your brain, read the wiki extract I included in my last post. Tell me which bits lead you to think that Cuba was such an amazing place for the ordinary people of Cuba before Castro. Oh yes, the pimps and the spivs and the exploitative yank corporations had it good, I won't deny. You are aligning yourself with them. Personally, I'd rather not.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:48 PM

Cuba's claimed successes

Well that's the kicker, ain't it Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:47 PM

Hmmm. Methinks bobad and Greg_F are near-perfect mirrors of each other - almost caricatures of the extremes.

So, you two, don't talk about each other. Talk about the subject of discussion, or find yourselves suspended for a week.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:42 PM

No surprises there "trolling - its what he does"

This is what passes for "substantive dialogue" from the likes of Greg, the master of substantive dialogue.......lol.

I note that whenever someone challenges the dearly held ideologies of some of our more ideologically driven posters with facts, the rebuttal always comes in the form of personal putdown or the charge of trolling. I love it because it tells us that they have no counter argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:38 PM

Bobad, I think all of us will admit to the problems of the Castro regime. But I think there's plenty of evidence to prove that Cuba's claimed successes in literacy and medical care, are true.

Take a look at the Wikipedia article on the Cuban Literacy Project, which began in 1961. I think it's something that just about any nation could do.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:36 PM

Yep, Greg, Reagan's Glory Days. Think about that time and how Republicans talk about it. I thought it was the End of the World, but earnest Republicans thought it was the Second Coming of the Messiah - and they still do. And some of them talk about it in apocalyptic terms, which is why I use that language.
It stinks.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:25 PM

As for the oft heard claim of a 99% literacy rate, those unfamiliar with the concept of state propaganda might wish to consider this list of states that make the same claim; Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:59 PM

Yeah, great place to live, bobad. Bring back the Batistas!

Well, let's not forget Machado, either- another exemplar of freedom and democracy.

And more slander/blather (blander/slather?) from Bubo- in the absence of substantive dialogue. No surprises there "trolling - its what he does" - see prior threads.

To reprise Tom Paxton, god love him and preserve him; we need him NOW !!

Gotta bomb Castro
Gotta bomb him flat
He's too damned successful
And we can't risk that
How do I know?
Read it in the Daily [Bubo] News

What's old is new again-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:34 PM

the country he thinks was so wonderful before Castro in 1959.

Yeah, great place to live, bobad. Bring back the Batistas!

Putting words in my mouth again eh Shaw, but that is what creeps like you do to demonize others isn't it? It won't work, we're on to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:24 PM

(Gosh, Stevieboy, that wasn't very kind to one of our needy, was it?) So here's a spot of info for bobad about Cuba in the 1950s, the country he thinks was so wonderful before Castro in 1959. Of course, you don't HAVE to believe wiki.

Cuba had a one-crop economy (sugar cane) whose domestic market was constricted. Its population was characterized by chronic unemployment and deep poverty. United States monopolies like Bethlehem Steel Corporation and Speyer gained control over valuable national resources. The banks and the country's entire financial system, all electric power production and the majority of industry was dominated by US companies. US monopolies owned 25 percent of the best land in Cuba. More than 80 percent of farmland was owned by sugar and livestock-raising large landowners. 90 percent of the country's raw sugar and tobacco exports was exported to the US.

In the 1950s, most Cuban children were not in school. 87 percent of urban homes had electricity, but only 10 percent of rural homes did. Only 15 percent of rural homes had running water. Nearly half the rural population was illiterate as was about 25 percent of the total population. Poverty and unemployment in rural areas triggered migration to Havana despite high levels of crime and prostitution. More than 40 percent of the Cuban workforce in 1958 were either underemployed or unemployed. Schools for blacks and mulattoes were inferior to those for whites. Afro-Cubans had the worst living conditions and held the lowest paid jobs.

Yeah, great place to live, bobad. Bring back the Batistas!