BS: Punishment for riots

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 12:06 PM

Problem is, Bluesman... Lots of despots have spines.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 11:23 AM

Beautiful empty words spoken by Thatcher, carefully crafted by her and no doubt her speechwriter. She spouted a quotation from St Francis on the way in to Downing St in 1979 too. Just words. Actions speak louder unfortunately.

I've never bought this stuff about her being a puppet for Joseph, Ridley et al, who as Ian says were clearly barking. She is (was) an intelligent woman who had a project and knew what she was doing. She was also a small minded provincial ***** (er, imho).

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 09:46 AM

<<<<<<<<<"her claim that there was "no such thing as society"

Well no her actual claim was:

"There is no such thing as society WITHOUT RESPONSIBILITY">>>>>>

She actually said this:

"...But it went too far. If children have a problem, it is society that is at fault. There is no such thing as society.[fo 2] There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate...."

Taken from the Transcript here, at The Margaret Thatcher Foundation

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 07:34 AM

You should view a party because of it's current policies, not because of what it did 30 odd years ago. Mrs. T. had a spine which is more than you can say than most Labourites.

The way I see it, Britain's economy was failing badly when she took over, we were known as "The sick man of Europe", partly because Labour continued to pump money into a failing mining industry. In my opinion she made a lot of tough decisions that, despite being very unpopular, needed to be made and dragged Britain into the modern age.

Can you imagine what Labour would have done at what was a pivotal point in our country's history, I dread to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 07:17 AM

---she personally ordered the sinking of The Belgrano after being told it was retreating away from the battle scene---
.,.,.,.,
Oh, yes, so she did. And what a fuss you lot over there made about it.

So, now, just remind us if you would be so good, what is it that they say about "He who fights and runs away ..."?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 07:12 AM

Responsibility?   When she called me "the enemy within" for having a job down the pit, what perspective should I have put on it?

When she personally ordered the sinking of The Belgrano after being told it was retreating away from the battle scene, what words of her order don't we mention? (Or her face when the BBC reporter asked her about it the next day, and she thought we wouldn't get to know the order came from the top.)

Or how about her overall philosophy that opportunity is another way of saying "Devil take the hindmost."

Oh, hang on. She didn't have any the above philosophy. SHe as a product of others. The Keith Joseph and Nicholas Ridley lunatics of the time, who saw this gullible woman as an ideal front for their social experiment. You don't think the conservatives of the '70s really stomached the idea of being led by a woman do you?   She was a blame hound for if it went wrong and a target for the ire of those disaffected by it. Perhaps Dave "I used to know some poor people" Cameron hasn't worked out yet that you need a bogeyman to blame, not a decent chap, as he undoubtably is.



Oh, hang on.. riots.

No. Prefer Thatcher bashing.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 03:18 AM

"her claim that there was "no such thing as society"

Well no her actual claim was:

"There is no such thing as society WITHOUT RESPONSIBILITY"

Whale of a difference - Most of her detractors always seem to conveniently forget those last two words - but then they tend to always fall into the category of those to whom everything is:

"Isn't IT awful" (truth is 9 times out of 10 it isn't)

"nothing is ever my fault" (truth is 9 times out of 10 it is)

"the government, or somebody else has got to do something about it" (truth is 9 times out of 10 they should take responsibility for their own decisions)

God we'll be hearing about her stealing milk from school children next. In that instance as Minister for Education she had a choice foisted upon her by the incompetence and waste off the previous Labour Government, the children either had schools and books or they had milk - she suffering quite a bizarre brainstorm chose schools and books - what an odd thing for someone involved in education to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Oct 11 - 08:53 AM

Check the dates: possibly he'd learned something.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Aug 11 - 09:06 AM

Yeah, right, my sister went to the LSE, and thence to that very square to protest before the embassy about a war. How did he know?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 04:37 PM

"I do not approve of anything that tampers with natural ignorance. Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit; touch it and the bloom is gone. The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound. Fortunately in England, at any rate, education produces no effect whatsoever. If it did, it would prove a serious danger to the upper classes, and probably lead to acts of violence in Grosvenor Square."
- Oscar Wilde, The Importance of Being Earnest, Act 1

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 04:32 PM

Godwin's Law, Willie.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 03:27 PM

I seem to remember one of them had a moustache, but I forget which.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 03:12 PM

You know that law, forget the name of it now, about Internet discussions losing the plot when they get around to mentioning Hitler?

Can we reinvent it, make it about Thatcher and call it Willie's law?

Don't get me wrong. Being an ex miner, my knees aren't what they used to be so I hope her grave has a sprung dance floor. But blaming her just gives her credibility on the eyes of people who agree with the broad thrust of her aims.

And that would never do. Half the feral fuckers being discussed here weren't born when she was stabbed in the back anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 03:06 PM

Thatcher's main contribution to this present topic was that, in her claim that there was "no such thing as society" she played a major part in the destruction of communities like the ones experiencing these present difficulties.
It is enough for me to remember that one of her her last political acts was to remonstrate on behalf of her friend and mentor, mass-murderer Augusto Pinochet and help him escape facing trial for crimes against humanity - nice lady, other than that!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 02:57 PM

She also sold off homes in housing estates to residents for around 40% of their market value. People once again took pride in their areas.

She gripped this country by the neck which was exactly what it needed after years of Labour government crap. I wish to God she was in number 10 today. She would not put up with loafers on benefits or single mothers creaming off the state, no sir.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 02:47 PM

We can remember on her behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 02:42 PM

I have to admit she had a significant effect on my faith in the democratic process. She was a lesson to us all and deserves to be remembered for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 01:48 PM

Oh dear, mention of Thatcher doesn't half get them all going, doesn't it? ~ even unto this day!

What has always exercised me is the fact that all these great detractors, both now & at the time, continue[d] to call themselves democrats and denounce her for not being so, when she was demonstrably for many years exactly what the δεμως wanted or they just wouldn't have just gone on electing and re-electing her like that, would they? No good saying that she ignored the public will, Al & all the rest of you, when what you mean is that she ignored your will which happened not to be that of the majority. Yet I bet you will still assert your belief in 'democracy'.

Oh, well: what's the use...

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 01:44 PM

There definitely were drugs before Thatcher. I remember that some kids from one of our local Grammar schools got done for smoking purple hearts (I think I've got that right??) in a coffee bar in the city centre.

I was OK, though, because I went to a Secondary Modern!

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 01:43 PM

Waste of breath Teribus!

They aren't interested in the facts, or the real reasons for the total lack of discipline and respect so prevalent in our young people today.

They just KNOW that all the ills of this sick nation must be laid at the door of one woman, who started it all happening while she was still at university, and they didn't notice anything that happened between 1959 and 1979.

The mere fact that you and I actually agree about the causes and effects ought to tell them something, but apparently not.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Smokey.
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 12:36 PM

Indeed, she was actually being kind to all those miners and all those poor sods beavering away in dirty factories making stuff we could just as easily import. Besides, if it wasn't for her, the whole of the western hemisphere would now be crushed beneath the Argentinian jackboot. Yet miraculously she never lost an ounce of her sex appeal. Gosh, we were lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 10:31 AM

Before Thatcher??

Oh yes I remember that halcyon time, when everything in the land was all sweetness and light, those days when it was striking hospital porters that decided whether or not you got into hospital to have your operation and it was them who decided whether or not you could have a place in a mortuary or could be buried when you failed in their lottery for that operation. The land of three day weeks and rolling black-outs, wildcat strikes and unelected (at least by the bulk of the population) union bosses dictating to elected Governments. The IMF riding in at the eleventh hour to bail out the UK, and the country going to hell in high gear.

Of course there was drugs, both hard and soft, of course there were gangs and gang warfare before Thatcher. Never actually heard her accused of destroying unskilled and semi-skilled jobs before, but there again all our traditional heavy industries were already well down the slippery slope long before Thatcher came on the scene, she just had the decency to finally put them out of their misery as one might a horse with three broken legs.

In short she saved the bloody country.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 23 Aug 11 - 06:26 AM

Things were different then, most of us were just happy to be able to tune into Radio Lux under the bedclothes most nights! Yes there were rough kids and rogues back then and there were some kids who dabbled in drugs but very few and far between not on the scale as it is now the only people that we heard about were rock stars who were so remote from us and 'real' life anyway. But I remembering fearing what my school or parents would say if I did anything wrong. Young people don't seem to have that fear of anything today. I am not saying whether that is a good or a bad thing it is just very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 10:06 PM

I was living on planet earth, location England.

You're not facing up to the facts of what damage you colluded in doing to this country if you colluded in Thatcher's reforms by voting for her.

The beggars on the street and the hard drugs came from when we lost a lot of semi skilled and unskilled work - a huge part of our economy. Previously people who were only bothered about buying fitted carpets for the houses they could only just afford to buy or rent, were in economic free fall. Family's just disintegrated in the stress. Yes poverty had happened in the 1930's but not to a chorus of abuse from politicians and media, not with conspicuous consumerism piped into every home by means of the TV - telling you you were a failure and a bum. This is when kids started getting beaten up for not wearing the right trainers.

The hard drugs transformed the mining villages of North Notts where I was working. They had always been tough places, but they became the places where the drug dealers from Sheffield and Leeds came to make deals and do business. The only success story amog the school leavers from one school was the BMW driving drug dealer. (probably another tory!)It was the start of the gang wars.

By the time I was working in Nottingham city, the kids in classes couldn't tell you with any certainty what the name of the vehicle was that took people to hospital - but they all knew what an Uzi was.

Don't tell whart I've seen and witnessed didn't happen or it was my fevered imagination or because I'm a lefty.

A few mods and rockers on purple hearts hardly equates with the hell brew of organised crime and cultural and economic poverty that we have now.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Smokey.
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 07:14 PM

There was significantly less hard drug use in the UK prior to Thatcher's reign. "Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll" didn't necessarily refer specifically to hard drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 06:11 PM

""Prior to Thatcher there were virtually no hard drugs, beggars on the street, and the culture of gangs, and the feeling that life in England was a chasm of poverty you can fall into and keep falling.""

Which planet were you living on in the sixties mate? Virtually no hard drugs?....Ha bloody ha!   What do you think "Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll" refers to then?

No gang culture?........1950s Teds v West Indians, 1960s Mods v Rockers closely followed by Hell's Angels v Anyone who "looked at them funny".

And I don't recall Maggie running the country back then.....and neither do you!

So what planet were you on?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,999 Sorry again!
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:25 PM

"Hence 999 makes a contribution above that hopefully expresses the anger although hopefully not the solution."

You got it, SW. I agree that the law must handle it.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: gnu
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 12:59 PM

I got this by email. Pat Condell's views.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 08:43 AM

What concerns me most was the young children (7-14) who were on the streets when all this was going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 03:17 AM

Old Brummy Joke Warning

Mayor of Dudley to hooker: Oi'll say Oi'm impotent, Oi'm the Meer ov Dudley......!

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:31 AM

I have said many times that a forum such as this is great for getting things off your chest and the word "cathartic" springs to mind.

Yeah, I wanted to hang the little fuckers who trashed my industrial unit a few years ago, hanging was too good for those who broke into the health centre I was on the board for, and as for the diddycoys who nicked my trailer.....

However, in the cold light of day I would want society to exact its revenge by the terms laid down in law. Anything more would of course be a success for whichever flavour of fascism you may ultimately subscribe to.

Hence 999 makes a contribution above that hopefully expresses the anger although hopefully not the solution.

Ian Mather, who in real life avoids confrontation, believe me, seems it is important to try to keep this debate in the real world and has confronted irrational anger by pointing out heartfelt feelings and honest debate don't always sit well together.

The justice dealt out after the riots has been swift and severe. My only question is that just because lots of people had their property trashed at the same time, how does this compare to an average month? Why doesn't our justice system support victims so seemingly effectively the rest of the time?

Perhaps politicians influence the judiciary after all. For God's sake don't tell the ruddy Ministers they have that power. They are much safer when impotent.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Aug 11 - 02:02 AM

Hang the little fuckers by their John Browns.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 05:06 AM

And there hangs my point. I slipped in the step brother bit, (wholly true but totally irrelevant) to see if you were thinking rationally or not.

And you are not.

And if you killed anybody with your bare hands, we have prisons to deal with such people.

And your less than objective view is a sad consequence of the issue of drugs. Although I hold no grudge against the people (long dead now) who ran the corner shop near us and supplied my Dad with his Woodbine, they did supply him his fax after all. Even after watching him die of lung cancer, I limit myself to donating to Ash, getting involved in public health initiatives and supporting the move to drive tobacco even further from the respectable mainstream.

What I didn't do was try to make people feel inadequate on a forum such as this. It doesn't become you. I don't know what PC horse shit is, apart from where I confront it. I have a dictionary so I know what "preach" means. It is something I don't do. I do know one thing though, and this relates to the thread we are on...

Punishment is best delivered cold, by objective people who don't have emotions running high, and that is why we have judges, juries and magistrates. Justice is not delivered by those looking for blame for their own situation. (Also why politicians would best serve their electorate by limiting themselves to delivering laws in abstract rather than either interfere or try to take credit for the actions of courts.)

And I am right too.... Whether that makes two of us, well I can bow my head in acknowledgement when someone says a criminal should hang, when the person saying it is speaking from the heart and not the head, but if anybody in sober reflection feels capital punishment is a suitable tool for society, then my opinion of them drops a peg or three.

I am having a very nice day, thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 11 - 02:30 AM

As to the cap-pun question, I offer no opinion. But it is surely patent that legalisation/licensing is the obvious solution to the drugs problem. As far as drugs go, we are in a virtually identical situation to the USA re Prohibition of alcohol in the 1920s-30s ~~ and everyone know where that led: to huge-scale smuggling, internecine gang-warfare for control of the illegal trade ~~ and among other things to the first, and still very rare, Amendement to the Constitution having to be introduced for the specific purpose of repealing a previous one {I think I have that right}.

Can our legislators really not see that persistence in illegalising what everybody knows that people are going to persist in doing merely perpetuates and exacerbates the resultant problems? Sensible people will admit defeat in such instances, and act to minimise the resultant abuses by taking legal control of the situation ~~ as our Licensing Acts have always done, and Prohibition so manifestly didn't.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:20 PM

"don't expect people to be intimidated and change their view for you."

I don't expect you to be intimidated, in fact I don't give a flying fuck what kind of PC-horse-shit you profess to believe just as long as you don't preach it at me. The simple fact is I do have the experience - it's completely different to having 'a step brother who has been in your position' - and I'd willingly kill with my bare hands the fuckers who supplied my kid, if I only knew who they were. Capital punishment would work absolutely perfectly - those pieces of shit could never re-offend.

That's my last word, and I'm right.
Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:12 PM

Sorry, that was me.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,P
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:11 PM

And just before any starts (again) : Only 8.9 % of those convicted on riot related charges were in employment or studying.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 11:58 AM

Here's the elephant (advisedly) in the room. These are young people wanting attention. If they were happy with their economic conditions, they wouldn't need it. There are those as mentioned above who will use this for personal high jinks but this misses the point. Overall, the purpose of these riots is to bring attention to police harassment, to highlight the unequal status of brown and black people in the UK. Beating them as was advocated above will only make matters worse and soon these activities will be exported to the US. (We've seen this movie before.)

Being punitive, narrow-minded, self-righteous and complaining will not solve the problem. The root of the problem has to do with racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 11:45 AM

Maybe so, but I am a little disturbed to see someone who comes over as rational most of the time advocating something like capital punishment for not having a licence.

I am not insulting you and am quite taken aback by your comment above. Capital punishment is insulting though. Anybody who feels it is the answer to anything has at least one subject where I cannot take them seriously. If that's insulting, I must be an insultist or whatever.

I ma not in a position to have seen my kid's life wrecked by drugs, no. Although I do have a step brother who has been in your position, and I suppose most of us know someone who has had their life wrecked by drugs. It is sadly rather widespread.

I do know what I am talking about though. Sorry but I do. I know that capital punishment is wrong, is barbaric and hasn't worked as either a deterrent or punishment. By nodding sagely and agreeing with you, I wouldn't be doing you any favours either. By talking of licensing (I agree wholeheartedly with that) and then the irrational thought of hanging people who don't have a licence isn't something I could humour you with by agreeing with you.

However "fucking awful" your experiences have been, don't expect people to be intimidated and change their view for you. My view stands. Capital punishment is barbaric and consigned to the history books in the civilised world.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 09:34 AM

You might think differently if your kid's life had been completely and irretrievably wrecked by those evil fuckers Ian. Unless you're in that position, you haven't a clue what the fuck you're talking about so, unless you are in that position, don't insult me by preaching at me about 'awful' - I know exactly what Fucking Awful is.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Musket
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 08:49 AM

Ah, I can perhaps disagree with both Backwoodsman and Big Al on a couple of technicalities?

Al, riots go back as far as you like. "I'm alright Jack" predates the Th*tcher philosophy too. The timing was there for this to be seen more, but so was the advent of more reporting, more TV coverage of events, more TV channels looking to compete with The Daily Shitscarer. I will be the first to accept that the drugs scene started getting worse in the '80s, and reached pandemic proportions here about ten years after it reached that state in The USA, and about five years before it reached Germany, France etc in the same proportions. We just got to know more about it as time went on. Hence the Catholic priest scandals; always been there, only recently getting front page cover.

I'm not sure giving Th*tcher credit for changing society, good or bad, is something I would be comfortable with. Anyway, if you were to say the Keith Joseph / Nicholas Ridley philosophy, then yes, they, through their puppet exacerbated the situation but I suspect the ability to see how the rest of the world spins helped. We are not the only country with issues, and don't forget, most Scandinavian countries, with similar issues to us kept socialist governments throughout the term of her office.

What was the other thing?... Oh, that's it. Backwoodsman = come on, "they don't deal any more when the stretch they're given is a neck stretch" ???    If you look at the less civilised countries such as China, USA, Singapore and Iran, you find that drug dealers exist, yet capital punishment is on the statute books... (Also, working without a licence being a capital crime? If we were awful enough to bring it back, I would expect it to be reserved for actions you shouldn't do rather than only do with a piece of paper from a regulator.)

People don't break the law because they weigh up the consequences, they break the law because they think they can get away with it, (or, to keep Bridge quiet) because they are desperate enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 08:23 AM

"I know Backwoodsman you disagree with me. I respect your reasons"

I appreciate that Al. But you may be surprised to learn that I don't disagree. 'The War On Drugs', as waged for the past twenty or so years, has failed. Time to re-think, and there's more than one way to skin a cat. It's time to legalise.

I'd go further than legalising drus, Al. I'd legalise them and introduce licencing of the dealers. And then I'd introduce the death-penalty for un-licenced dealing. They don't deal any more when the stretch they're given is a neck-stretch.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 07:44 AM

Sanity appears to be returning in the UK.
Perhaps they've decided that if they're going to hand out draconian sentences to those implcated in the riots, they might just have to start jailing crooked politicians (chance would be a fine thing!!).
From The Times this morning.
Jim Carroll

BACKLASH AS RIOT MOTHER IS SET FREE
Lawyers expect case to spark flood of appeals
David Brown, Richard Ford

Lawyers are predicting a flood of successful appeals against "hysterical" sentencing after a mother jailed for her role in last week's riots had her prison term quashed.
A senior judge ruled that it was "wrong in principle" to jail Ursula Nevin, a mother of two, simply for receiving clothing that had been stolen
by a looter        
Judge Andrew Gilbart, the Recorder of Manchester, said Nevin had been left in a "circle of hell" after being jailed for five months, and ordered her to be released immediately. After growing concern at the sentences faced by more than 1,300 people who have appeared in court as a result of the rioting, it is the first signal that harsh punishments are set to be overturned.
Convicted rioters are being handed prison sentences that are on average 25 per cent longer than normal, an analysis of 1,000 riot-related cases has found. Lawyers and penal reformers said that Nevin's successful appeal is the start of a rebalancing of the justice system, but there are growing signs of disagreement over what constitutes appropriate punishment.
Paul Mendelle, QC, a former chairman of the Criminal Bar Association, said: "I suspect this judgment is the start of many other successful appeals. It is the start of a rowing back from some of the more draconian sentences. I certainly hope so.
"In the magistrates' courts they seem to have got rather too caught up with some of the more extreme views that have been expressed. In the immediate aftermath, and maybe responding to political calls for tough sentences, they have gone over the top."
John Cooper, QC, a criminal barrister, agreed: "This successful appeal is in my view going to be one of many. There has been some hysterical sentences in the magistrates' courts for the last week and over the next period we will see the criminal justice system realigning itself."
Judge Gilbart's decision, however, will fuel fears among politicians that the higher courts will reduce long sentences and substitute jail terms for community punishments when cases are appealed. Patrick Mercer, Conserv¬ative MP for Newark, said: "I hope that the judicial system is going to be consistent on this and that the exemplary nature of some of the sentences is not going to be watered down when the memory of the severity of what happened begins to fade."
Mike O'Brien, QC, a former Labour Solicitor General, called for the Court of Appeal to rule on the extent by which the normal sentence for offenc¬es should be increased because of the seriousness of the disorder.
"The decision of [Judge Gilbart] seems to me to be disproportionate, too lenient, the decision of the district judge on the other hand feels too heavy. Getting the balance right is now something we need some authoritative decision from the Court of Appeal on. These events were unprecedent¬ed... this was a real threat to order in the UK and had to be dealt with severely and the courts have to do that."
Prison governors are closely monitor¬ing the jail system for potential unrest after the total population hit a record high of 86,654 following the courts' decision to remand in custody hundreds charged with rioting and looting.
Governors have been urged to ensure the safety of inmates imprisoned for the first time after three offenders, who were all on remand in connection with last week's violence and looting, were assaulted at Cookham Wood young offenders', institution in Rochester, Kent. Two needed treatment in hospital but the prison service said that the trouble was not "riot related".
The number of inmates has increased by 723 over the past week and officials are making contingency plans to send more people to Isis jail, a new establishment in Woolwich, and to bring forward the opening of a newly refurbished cell block at Lewes prison.
Nevin, 24, was jailed at a magistrates court after admitting keeping a pair of shorts her lodger had stolen during rioting in Manchester.
The mother of two children, aged one and five, had wailed in disbelief when she was sentenced by District Judge Khalid Qureshi at Manchester Magistrates' Court on Friday last week.
Judge Qureshi told Nevin: "You had more than one opportunity to tell these individuals who brought this stuff into your house not to."
However, Judge Gilbart, Manchester's most senior judge, overturned the jail sentence at the city's Crown Court, saying it was "wrong to send her to prison" when she did not go into the streets to take part in looting.
"Ursula Nevin didn't go into the city centre. I regard it as wrong in principle that she was made the subject of a custodial sentence," he told the court.
"You must have found yourself in the course of the last week what seemed like a circle of hell. The way to never get in that situation again is to show the courage to say no. I'm sure the courts will never be troubled with you again. Leave now and go look after your children,"
Judge Gilbart's decision came as David Cameron said rioters and looters given "exemplary sentences" are entitled to a "second chance".
"I'm an optimist. I'm a believer in giving people second chances in life. I don't think anyone is totally lost," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 07:35 AM

Hhhhmmm!

I agree that the rioters shouldn't be allowed to get away with their crimes against their neighbours and fellow citizens - but the sentencing policy seems to be getting more and more dodgy. It would appear that the silly little gits in the North West who tried (and failed) to instigate riots on Facebook are getting the same sort of sentence as rapists. The more I look at these sentences the more it re-inforces my perception that crimes against property are treated more severely than crimes against people (it was, of course, ever thus).

Cameroon says that 'society is sick' (I have news for him - it isn't where I live!) and Millipede says it all comes down to the ever-widening gulf between rich and poor. My money is on the latter - although neither of them will sort it out because they're both 'slaves' of the rich and are only there to help the rich get richer. The days when we elected politicians, and expected them to work for the good of society as a whole, are long gone.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:55 AM

no future in looking back. Even the tories have abandoned the wild excesses of the Thatcher era.

I agree in some ways she was the originator of that sort of toryism where evryone who wasn't on fifty grand a year was a workshy loser who refused to get on their bike and look for work - having skillfully removed all the manufacturing industry , so there was no work for many folk.

However her legacy is everywhere. look at the number of people saying the cuts have nothing to do with the riots - when they aren't living in the strata of society affected by the cuts most directly. Prior to Thatcher there were virtually no hard drugs, beggars on the street, and the culture of gangs, and the feeling that life in England was a chasm of poverty you can fall into and keep falling. Those are the wounds that she and her army of Daily Mail readers inflicted on England. I could see no patriotism in that. no love of country.

We can't undo the past. What we can do is try to protect our children from gang culture. Legalise drugs to cut the ground from under the feet of the gangsters and their culture. Medicalise the addict, rather than have them on the street needing to steal to score.

I can't help thinking we should call to account some of the artists who glorified the gangster drug dealers - as well as Thatcher's crew.

I know Backwoodsman you disagree with me. I respect your reasons.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 05:21 AM

Still waiting to hear in the news confirmation that the police have used rubber bullets and fire hoses on Thatcher who was the ringleader of the riots.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 02:50 PM

and Eddie Brimson, stand up comedian is another of his kids. greg Brimson who produced the Levellers big album - another offspring of the great man.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 02:15 PM

Yeh Brimson is Derek's proper name. Its Derek's kid.

Never knew that - thanks, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 09:31 AM

Greetings from Singapore where the authorities are puzzled by the events in UK and the inmates of this Disneyland with the death sentence wonder if The UK could learn a thing or two.

Perhaps not.

Coming home tomorrow having emptied a few piss pots. Hope there are some buildings left in London. The press here see no difference between the landscape in Tottenham and the landscape in downtown Baghdad.

Of course, the reality will be the UK I left a few weeks ago will be the UK I return to and some new reality TV series will keep the little darlings off the streets for a while.

Punishment? Make them sit in a room whilst M'Unlearned Friend and Jim Carroll debate the impact of the 1954 folk definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Punishment for riots
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Aug 11 - 03:57 AM

I know that tax relief on the rich has been around as an issue for a while, but choosing this moment for reminding us seems a bit thick. Funny how you can go to Oxford and still give that impression.

Penny