BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:23 PM

Bluddy Noel convoluted Coward quotes.

WSYSWIG - re link making... I used to edit US FEDERAL CODE online in DOS. I had to write code to make the code show. Learned HTML before I took that job. HTML was a walk in the park compared to MAPS commands.

Now I have forgotten more than I ever knew. Think I am starting to fit in.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:12 PM

Oh, not too much good please. What did Sheridan say in "School for Scandal" - "The malice in a good thing is the barb that makes it stick" wasn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:12 PM

fantastic... video had me laughing so hard I started hacking cough again....


kkkkrruugggsplutttt Sorry hair ball. Somebody clean that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:07 PM

LOL!!! That is quite a video.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:05 PM

I quite like the simplicity of the Mudcat setup. Except when the bluddy search function does not work - it's been out all day today, in fact it quite often malfunctions for me. Who should I contact about that?

Don't feel any need to have a MySpace or Facebook kind of set up here. There are threads where you can share your other space bio links and we can always do it in PMs.

Re the moderators... if we are new we still don't know who you are. There is nothing on the front page or in the links to indicate who the Mods are, who to contact if one needs advice or help. We just have to sort of discover this as we go along.

Someday i gonna be a big cat... then all you betta look out. I not hiss, i not swipe, i not growl, i just sit and look at you wif narrowed eyes that say.... YOU BETTA BE GOOD.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:00 PM

...described it as trying to herd wet cats up a limp noodle for a rope.

Like THIS, Susan!:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:55 AM

I went to Cognito once, but it was too crowded and they kept wanting to put nametags on all the new arrivals. :~)

VT, I forgot one thing that may be a useful way to see Mudcat-- a veteran (before I was a veteran) described it as trying to herd wet cats up a limp noodle for a rope. Damn folkies are jes' too danged independent-minded and 'bellious to take kindly to much in the way of structure or rules. And then there's the musicians' creativity on top of that.

And then on top of that, "who" or "what" Mudcat is on any given day depends upon who's here that particular day and how their mindset is when they cruise in, and how they affect one another as they collide. Yikes! :~)

Names are a factor too. I had you confused w=for awhile with another Tam who has had several Mudcat names all including "Tam." Now I just think of you as that newish member who figured out, quick, how to make good links. :~)

Soon you too will be confused by all sorts of Mudcat trends, identities and legacies. ;~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:51 AM

Now that is one Rapaire post NOT to ignore!**bg** Good advice.

Re: modertors...we all used to be joe clones, as I said. As Max told me, recently, it is just a matter of semantics. We are all moderators and have the same tools at hand to help folks, etc. Max gave us the option of being public or not, so I don't think you will see any direct links to any of us. All it takes is a PM to any of us who are "out" including Joe, Jeri, Mick,and myself.

As for bios and such...Pene Azul, the fellow who has been Max's partner in Mudcat forever, has a 3D life which has taken over and precluded any additions to profiles, etc. That was several years ago. Nowadays with so many folks on Myspace, Facebook, etc. it's just as simple to include a link. I, personally, like that Mudcat is not part of the pack, i.e. different and seemingly antiquated...that's part of being a folkie, isn't it?**bg**

Finally, I have to say I know other people of different races/ethnicities/colour/minorities (which can include LBGT,)etc. who are members but do not define themselves by that. While I respect anyone's right to do so and to share their experiences, I don't think anyone should feel as though they have to come out, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:44 AM

Shane has been wanting to meet you for a long time too, Rapaire. Sadly, though, it has not happened yet. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:32 AM

Oh. Race.

I'm a laterally symmetrical, bipedal, bimanual, biocular and biaural member of Homo Sapiens Sapiens (a carbon-oxygen life form), resident on the third planet of the star we call "Sol."

Azizi, Amos, Amergin, and Peace have met me. So have others, only they didn't know it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:27 AM

compose in Word I do it in Notepad. (this could be turned into something kinky... but I won't)

Ahhh Spleen and Rap are now in da house. Roll on toilet humour.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:23 AM

For really annoying messages I find it best to take a long walk in the woods and truly think about what was said and what I want to say, and then ignore the whole thing while cogitating upon the stupidity of some people

...isn't a 'taking a long walk in the woods' a euphemism for taking a dump?

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:16 AM

For really annoying messages I find it best to take a long walk in the woods and truly think about what was said and what I want to say, and then ignore the whole thing while cogitating upon the stupidity of some people.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: maire-aine
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:09 AM

For really serious messages, I have found that it is better to compose in Word, then copy and paste into the thread. It gives me a chance to blow off steam and then edit, without the risk of accidentally hitting "submit" in the heat of the moment.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 11:03 AM

sigh....

Thank you everybody. I will be staying. Can't help it. Addicted to the knowledge resources not to mention the pure idiotic playfulness (beard abuse being one recent example).

I have a friend (former work colleague) on Facebook. Black, female, blues singer. Think I will give her a tickle about Mudcat. See if she is interested in having a look around. She is ever so busy, so it may not happen. Heck she may be here already in cognito.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:58 AM

Feel free to ignore everything Rapaire posts, including this.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:45 AM

VT, if you work on the basis that they're all bonkers (including - especially - the sane ones) and that you could probably settle most of the arguments with a best-of-three bouts of arm-wrestling, you'll go far.

I reckon the golden rules (insofar as there are any rules in encouragingly anarchic world of Mudcat) are:
i) maintain a sense of humour;
ii) quietly walk away if someone winds you up and only post a retort later (took me ages to work that one out!);
iii) try not to respond to personal attacks (especially as they may not be intended that way);
iv) try not to make personal attacks (no matter how much you may be tempted!);
v) try to believe that if someone appears to be a complete turd there's usually a reason for this;
vi) assume there's a possible incogruence between someone's writing style and what they're trying to say (for example, I really didn't like what one particular long term member seemed to be saying until I realised that behind the, um, waspish surface style lurked some excellent sense);
vii) really, really, really don't get into it with anyone who appears to display obsessive traits... unless it's a harmless one like being obsessively helpful or obsessively nice;
viii) don't feel you always have to follow your own or anyone else's advice. Ever.

I don't feel like I've been here long enough to welcome you, so instead I'll welcome you to Manchester in advance of next time you're passing by...

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 10:05 AM

Let me rephase this sentence:

Although, I admit that for various reasons, I've taken breaks from this forum now and then, I've always returned.

**

Megan L, yes, I'm aware that there are more races than "White and Black". However, my point still stands that the definitions for and the use of the words "racism" and "prejudice" appear to me to be different in the USA {or at least among African Americans who I know} and in the UK.

Richard, thanks for your compliment. Sleepy Rosie, thanks for your comment.

With that, I'm returning to lurker mode on this thread.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:52 AM

VirginiaTam, I have just read your latest post of 04 Jan 09 - 09:25 AM.

I absolutely didn't intend for my comments to cause you to consider leaving this forum. I very much hope that you remain an active Mudcat member.

I also hope that more people [including more people of color] will join Mudcat. I think that it would be interesting and helpful if more person of color would identify themselves by race/ethnicity. However, if they do not, or if other people of color don't join, I still strongly believe that this forum is a rich resource about various topics, including folk music, folk culture, and yes, even race relations. And I also believe that Mudcat provides wonderful opportunities for people to meet and learn about other people from their own culture and from other cultures. Hopefully, we might meet some of these people off-line. But even if we don't, meeting and exchanging information, opinions, and socializing with people on Mudcat provides opportunities for people to grow. Although, I admit that I've taken breaks from this forum now and then, for various reasons, I've always returned.

I believe that Mudcat is one of the best forums online, partly because it is so eclectic in the topics that are discussed, and also because it has an international membership. And imo, there's nothing at all wrong with discussing what could make this forum better for newbies as well as for veteran members.

Again, VirginiaTam, I hope that you aren't considering leaving this forum. Please stay and please continue posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:50 AM

I think that could have been better put, MeganL, but I was about to say something similar, namely that there do appear to be prejudices against for example the English, and in some cases the Jews, and in other cases Arabs (or some of them), in yet others the Irish (or some of them) and in most cases (or many cases) these could be racist prejudices. Indeed is there more spite than fun in Diane Easby's repeated reference to " 'Murkans" (in which I am somemes tempted to join)?

Be that as it may, Azizi is one of those here for whose posts I usually feel the greatest respect (and sometimes awe, that she can put so much careful and balanced thought into one post).

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

"When I joined Mudcat in Sept 2004, I thought that members were supposed to write a bio. However, I've since learned that few members have written bios. I wish members would voluntarily do so, but wouldn't want it to be a requirement."

Azizi, I ditto this.
The big problem with the Cat is it's quite utterly antiquated forum software!
No personal page, which comes automatically as part of the package for most forums. People just fill 'em out, when they are just 'there'.

Quotes, links, personal bio, photy's etc. Anything you want to include or don't want to include.

I'm a thirty-something white working-class bint from the UK btw. With a very typically English 'silly' sense of humour. Humour style, is incidentally IMO a very telling culturally identifiable quality (and no-doubt racially too, but I don't pretend to know about such things in the virtually all-white South-East England.) Because it clicks into all our unspoken understandings (ot of course misunderstandings).
It's certainly been interesting observing the cameraderie between the Americans on-board. So many fascinating shared cultural references.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:42 AM

Posting on Mudcat is similar to dropping a stone in the middle of a pond. The ripples spread out and no one can tell where they will come ashore and what effect they will have when they get to land.

Most of the ripples from your thread will create good echoes, Virginia.

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Megan L
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:33 AM

Race is no jist black and white fur goodness sake.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:32 AM

VirginiaTam, in your comment of 04 Jan 09 - 04:25 AM you wrote that
"It might be useful to have a link to moderators for the newbies in the FAQ area. We don't know who they are. Maybe it is there already. My plan for today is to go through the FAQ area more thoroughly."

I'd like to make a friendly ammendment to your suggestion, but prior to doing so, my compliments to you on your wonderfully descriptive statement that "It is so easy to jump into this forum with both feet, not realising you may be landing on someone's gouty toe".

I've written on previous threads that I think Mudcat's Frequently Asked Questions section is terribly difficult to read and decipher. I won't go there again {Ah! Now there's a pun if I ever saw one. I meant that I won't repeat what I said before. But another meaning is probably also correct}

Instead of having a link to the Mudcat moderators in the FAQ {where it might get lost in the sauce}, my friendly ammendment is to reactivate the Mudcat "Help" feature, to provide a private message link to Joe Offer and a private message link to Big Mick {my understanding is that these two moderators have the same status/responsibility but I might be wrong about this}, and to provide a private message link to "All Other Moderators" {some of whom have identified themselves on public threads, and some of whom have not}. The reason why I'm suggesting three separate links is that sometimes, for personal reasons, members and guests might perfer to speak to one or another of these chief moderators or may perfer not to address their concerns to either of the chief moderators {that said, I would suppose that the other moderators would share any important concern with the chief moderators and or Max, the owner of this site}.

Putting the link in the Help section as a separate part of the private message feature means that it would be easily accessible, and also available to members and guests {though other parts of the private message system would remain unavailable to guests}. Furthermore, because these messages are private, unlike the old Help feature, no one else can read those messages, which means that there wouldn't be the flames or spam that showed up in the old Help feature. It's an idea. But if Max perfers not to re-open the Help feature or chooses not to add links to Moderators, I can live with that.

**

VirginiaTam, you wrote that ""In future, if I feel put upon, I will try to remember to check out the person's other posts, learn who they are in context to others before I react. I will offer the same advice to others who contact me with anxieties."

I think that there are times online as well as off-line when a person "feels put upon" that she or she has to act quickly and therefore can not research what makes another person tick.

Also, the quantity of posts that many Mudcatters have written would make reading all of their archived posts or even skimming through their archived posts almost impossible to do. I mean we're talking about thousands of post for just one person.

Furthermore, a public post provides just a snapshot in time of the person who wrote it. People change their moods, and also people do change {and hopefully evolve} overtime, especially when we're talking over years. That said, I've found it interesting to surf through old threads and even some particular Mudcatters archived threads to learn more about them. Another way of learning about some Mudcatters is to read their bios in the "Membership" feature. When I joined Mudcat in Sept 2004, I thought that members were supposed to write a bio. However, I've since learned that few members have written bios. I wish members would voluntarily do so, but wouldn't want it to be a requirement.

One of the reasons why bios would be helpful is because most Internet screen names don't provide demographical information such as gender and also may provide erroneous information regarding the person's geographical location. For instance, because most people on Mudcat are unfamiliar with my actual name "Azizi", I'm often mistaken for a male. And I wouldn't be surprised if people think that I'm Muslim because the Swahili name female "Azizi" is so close to the Arabic female name "Aziza" and the Arabic male name "Aziz".

As another example, Virginia Tam, because of the "Virginia" in your name, I keep forgetting that you are in the UK. This may lead to some cultural misunderstandings {though you might be an American living in the UK}, but all in all, I think we {you and me} understand each other pretty well.

Well, that's enough comments from me. Have a good day, and Best wishes to you and all others,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:25 AM

I try not to superimpose my understanding of what has been told to me and I also do my best to report as faithfully and as conscientiously as I can.

I do not know what the colour is, of the person who contacted me. And it was this person who suspected "racism" (their word, not mine) was the reason s/he was being stalked thru threads. I will not give anymore information than this, as it was told to me in confidence, not to mention it may identify and or inflame individuals.

I am now very sorry to have started this thread. It appears it will go in horrible directions I never meant it to.

And this I think is the biggest travesty, sorry that the forum does not have more people of colour and that some here do not wish it to be known. What alost opportunity.

Maybe this is not the place for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:48 AM

To Virginia Tam and others,

I usually don't spend a great deal of time thinking about what I write on Mudcat threads during the actual act of writing. Though Mudcat has a "Preview" feature, I confess that I rarely use it. Usually I prefer to proof read my serious posts one time or a couple of times before I hit the submit button. Unfortunately, sometimes this had led to typos, grammatical errors, and even cut & paste gobblygook being left in my submitted posts. Sometimes if I catch them, I consider these errors of sufficient importance that I will post a correction. Other times, I don't post any corrections, but let my errors alone, as further testimony to my humanness.

However, the fact that I don't reflect a great deal on the serious comments that I write while I'm writing it, doesn't mean that these comments are written impulsively. On the contrary, I spend a considerable amount of time thinking about these "heavy duty" topics before I write my posts. I consider the topic of this discussion to be one of those "heavy duty"{important} topics.

I like to think of Mudcat as a community, and I like to comment on the public threads as though I'm engaged in conversations with a specific person or with specific people. While doing so, I'm aware that there are other people {lurkers} who are likely to read my comments immediately after I hit the submit button. In addition, because these public threads are archived, there are also people who may potentially read my comments and the comments in these threads that written by other people days, weeks, months, and years from now. Therefore writing on Mudcat is an opportunity, a challenge, and a responsibility.

I agree with Little Hawk's 03 Jan 09 - 11:16 PM comments that "There's also a sort of multicultural thing happening here... Each identifiable group seems to have its own particular foibles, issues, hangups, and ways of having fun. It's hard to figure out at first, and no one has provided a racing form or a program to explain it all...so you've got to sort of learn as you go along".

I know that I have been shaped by the experiences that I have had and continue to have as an African American woman growing up in the 1950s and 1960s in the New Jersey and living since the late 1960s in Western Pennsylvania. I mention my racial identity online in part because it adds context {and perhaps sometimes validity] to my comments about certain subjects such as race and African American culture/s. I also mention my race in some of my posts to this forum {and I encourage others to mention their race/nationality} as part of the demographical information that I {and I believe they should} document during the collection of cultural products such as children's playground rhymes and other folk songs. However, I do not mention my race when I am posting about topics when I consider that demographical information to be unneccesary {for example in the thread that I started on "Favorite Religious Songs" or humorous threads}. Of course, other reasonable people-including other African Americans-might disagree with me about whether mentioning race is important at all, or is necessary all of the times that I mention it.

That said, I believe that part of what Little Hawks referred to as Mudcat's multicultural mix has sometimes resulted in my misunderstanding other people's motivations, statements, and humor {humour}. And this multicultural mix has sometimes resulted in other people misunderstanding my motivations, statements, and humor.

One of the things that continues to surprise me and one of my deepest regrets about this Mudcat community is that there are so few people of color who post on this forum. Because of the cultural complexity that Little Hawk referenced, let me "break down" {define, provide clarifying information} about what I just wrote. By "people of color", I mean people who are of Black or Brown African descent, people who are Asian, people who are Latino/a, people who are Native American, people who are indigenous Australians, and other people who are non-White. And by "so few people of color on Mudcat", I mean people of those racial backgrounds/ethnicities who publicly acknowledge their racial/ethnic identity ["ethnic" is used here in the USA sense of "Latino/a"/"Hispanic"}. I know that there is at least one other African American who sometimes post on this forum because that person pmed me to share this information with me. In that private message, s/he indicated that s/he did not want to share any information about her/his racial identity in the public threads. I responded back that I regretted that decision, but to each his or her own.

I respect that confidential information just as I respect all confidential information that is shared through private messages. However, if there were more people of color who indicated their racial/ethnic identity in their public posts, and shared their perspectives on the racial topics that invariably are the focus of Mudcat threads {sometimes started by me, but often started by other Mudcatters and guests}, then-even if I didn't always agree with those posters-I think Mudcat would be a richer community.

All of this leads me, Virginia Tam, to the comment in your latest post to this thread that "[a Mudat member] who contacted me [in a private message] mentioned being stalked and felt racism was suspected". First of all, when you said that an individual pmed you and indicated that she or he felt that racism might be the reason why he or she was being stalked, my first reaction is to substitute the word "prejudice" for "racism" as I know that I didn't pm you to sat this, and as it would very much surprise me if the Mudcat member who pmed you was another person of color.

My reading of Mudcat threads leads me to believe that some people outside of the USA, or maybe also within the USA use the word "racism" when I {and perhaps most Black people} would use the word "prejudice". Or perhaps some people have a wider definition of "race" than I do, in that they may consider White ethnic groups such as Irish, Polish, and Italians as a race separate from English, and French people. If a person pre-judges another individual or groups of individuals because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, and/or sexual orientation, I would consider that to be "prejudice" and not "racism". [There are, of course, ethnicities within African American and other Diaspora African populations, but addressing that would provide too much detail to this already long winded post].

I hasten to say that I believe that prejudice is just as bad as racism. I also believe that no one should be stalked on this forum or anywhere else online or offline. But I know it happens. When it does, a person has to decide what to do herself and himself on a case by case basis. And hopefully that person will have clear support from other people who are aware by reading these public threads that stalking is occurring. And also that person will have clear intervention and support from Mudcat moderators.

I'll write more on the subject of Mudcat moderators and other related and unrelated matters in my next post to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:44 AM

"In future, if I feel put upon, I will try to remember to check out the person's other posts, learn who they are in context to others before I react. I will offer the same advice to others who contact me with anxieties."

That's not such a bad idea, because there are a lot of people that are hard to identify. Though strong characters are fairly recognisable from their distinctive and consistant style and thus not too tricky to read (implying they are therefore also fairly easy to avoid), there are akin to most fora, still far more anonymous sounding members who while they do not appear to have much of interest (either silly or sensible) to contribute, nevertheless suddenly appear out of seeming no-where for a quite unexpected sarcastic little snipe at someone else.

This is by far one of the the most dull-witted forms of 'contribution' going on any internet forum, and at best implies a complacent self-satisfied contentment with having hung around like a limp sock long enough to have earned the right to ocassionally bitch. It is also cowardly, because these contributers are not only dull, but too nervous to express a genuine thought or opinion about anything, and thereby risk icurring the same reaction upon themselves.

If I get flamed, there are about four ways I tend to deal with it:
The First is by far the most usual and sensible, and involves ignoring and walking away (this is newby me being good).
The Second is referring them to Jane Austen for no-doubt well needed lessons in how to compose a truly witty sarcastic put-down. (me irritated now and offering an open invitation to flame war goto 4) The third is to tell them to "Fuck-Off and go flame someone who actually gives a shit." (annoyed but far too bored for 2, Goto 1)
And the Fourth, by far the most exhausting and childish, is to actively demonstrate what a bore they are by engaging in flame war, verbally pull their pants down and do a little jig around them (only ever engaged in for the sheer bloody minded hell of it of course, and when no longer a newby...)

Most of the Catdudes that I've virtually rubbed up against thus far, have I must say been great. Lots of good humour, lots of positive support for my new interest, lots of friendly welcome.

It is however a shame that some of the most strongly helpful and experience-based advice I recieved for some of my early questions, was via PM's directly to me in order to bypass the childish squabblings in the flaming gallery of the upstairs public forum.

And I've had a few similar PM responses to questions which while I am most thankful for the advice and supportive gestures, it is a pity that the 'flaming gallery' actually undermines its own agenda, which is one might have supposed, to collectively share and exchange constructive thoughts on the subject at hand..? Eh ho!

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:25 AM

Thank you to everyone who has contributed. As I said it is not only at me and not always specifically directed negativity. All your words are encouraging.

It might be useful to have a link to moderators for the newbies in the FAQ area. We don't know who they are. Maybe it is there already. My plan for today is to go through the FAQ area more thoroughly. It is so easy to jump into this forum with both feet, not realising you may be landing on someone's gouty toe.

....if a person follows you from one thread to another bringing up the same or similar points....

Azizi, that's a bit scary. One who contacted me mentioned being stalked and felt racism was suspected. I am not sure I understood this person correctly and there wasn't much exchange. Just one of those things that lended to the creation of this thread.

For my part, I have to agree with the light-handed approach to moderation of the threads. If I felt that moderators were cleaning up after us, it would feel too much like big brother is watching and the free exchange would die.

When opinions are stated in even impolite, and/or bigoted ways, we all find out about each other. As well, we learn something about ourselves through our reactions.

This has to be the best tool for helping us open closed minds (our own as well as another's), and for teaching us to not only tolerate but embrace everyone's right to opinion. Maybe we will even change our opinions as we learn.

In future, if I feel put upon, I will try to remember to check out the person's other posts, learn who they are in context to others before I react. I will offer the same advice to others who contact me with anxieties.

I hope I grow up to be a gentle, helpful, Jellicle Cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: open mike
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:00 AM

some trolls and flamers come here just to scratch around in the cat box i think. and scatter the litter around. some times there are offensive comments thrown about, too. There used to be a "help"
forum where you could send alerts about offensive or rude comments.

non-members are still allowed to post to threads, but cannot enter the chat room or send personal messages. They're off limits in some
places due to the trouble they can, and do, cause.

hang in there and take it all with grain of salt.

and, oh, by the way, welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:03 AM

Jim, in your comment of 03 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM, you wrote that that "the impolite people won't change their habits and won't go away". Perhaps that's true, though I suppose that there is always hope that a person might change his or her ways. However, I disagree with your position that it's always the best to ignore and not respond back to an impolite person.

Just as in face to face situations, it seems to me that how a person responds to online "impoliteness" should be determined on a case by case basis. Sometimes it's best to let a remark go. At other times it's best to address the remark without anger, perhaps with {attempts at} humor or wit, or perhaps with a firm, succient comment. Other times, it's best to let your controlled anger show. }Note that I don't think it's ever best to let your anger take control of you}.

There are any number of other ways that a person could intelligently address what she or he considers to be an attack. In my opinion, sometimes it may be the best choice to let the attacking person or persons know that you will and can defend yourself=with {hopefully} well chosen words.

I believe that there are times that it's best to let the person attacking you know that you choose not to respond to him or her on that thread at that time or perhaps at any other time on that thread. Sometimes it's best to just leave the thread. I have used all of these strategies at one time or another. And if a person follows you from one thread to another bringing up the same or similar points that you chose not to argue, then-based on all kinds of variables, you have to decide what is the best action or non-action for you to take. strategy

In a Mudcat thread I started a few years ago about responses to what I {and others} considered to be racism on Mudcat threads, I pointed out that it is important to any person so targeted to know that there are people who that person can count on for support-people who proactively spoke out in a supportive manner. It seems to me that at least some of the time, if there is a person being targeted on a Mudcat thread, because of race, ethnicity, nationality, personality, religion, or for what ever reason, other people on that thread should not ignore that maltreatment. Nor should they always wait for that person who is being targeted to defend himself or herself.

It seems to me that it reflects poorly on our community if the burden of addressing ill treatment always falls on the person or persons being targeted. Certainly, if this were the case, I would not want to be a part of such a community. Just as Mudcatters has made it known by their comments within threads that they don't tolerate racism and prejudice, I believe that when we Mudcatters, {veteran members, veteran guests, and newbies} see a person being treated rudely or spitefully on public threads by another persons or persons , we shouldn't just try to ignore that behaviour, but should speak out, and let the person/s doing that know that such behaviour is unacceptable.

Sometimes this might work, and sometimes not. Sometimes pms to the offending person might be warranted and/or alerting Mudcat moderators about the incident or patterns of incidences that we have noticed. But if people don't never speak out on the public threads when such offensive behaviour occurs, then that sends negative messages not only to other oeople posting to the thread, but also to people reading that thread now and potentially in the future.

I pray and hope that I make the right choices when faced with what I consider to be others' negative statements and behaviour. And, if I realize that I've make the wrong choice/s, I pray and hope that I am woman enough to own up to my mistakes, both publicly and privately through the pm system, and that I do whatever I can to rectify my misjudgement/s.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:37 PM

I forgot to say, VTam, at first I thought this was going to be about children coming to the website, as we do have a children's section and some have been known to call their children Mudkittens.:-)

Also, I am one of the moderators, what we call "joe clones" because we once started out as that. Joe being "Joe Offer." Please don't hesitate to PM me if you ever have any concerns or problems.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:33 PM

Reminds me of "Life is not a movie, there is no script.":-) Or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:16 PM

This was the first online message board or internet forum I EVER participated in, and I sure didn't know what to expect at the beginning, but for the most part it's been a good experience. It has taught me quite a bit about not letting my buttons get pushed too easily by people I can't see and may never meet.... ;-) (though I have met a few of them since)

There's also a sort of multicultural thing happening here...there's the UK crowd, who are one notable group...then there are the Americans (quite different from the UK people)...then there are the Canadians (of which I am one)...then there's the Aussies...and the Irish...and then there are all the rest of the people scattered around hither and yon around the world. Each identifiable group seems to have its own particular foibles, issues, hangups, and ways of having fun. It's hard to figure out at first, and no one has provided a racing form or a program to explain it all...so you've got to sort of learn as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Genie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:03 PM

Hi, VT,
Grisabella (at my house) says welcome to the Mudcat house.   She's still trying to teach me to be jellicle.

I got my nose swatted (pointedly but not too painfully) when I first ventured to post here, being quite new to online message boards, period.   And occasionally I get swipes taken at me (as I'm sure happens to everyone else) -- sometimes perhaps with the swatter not even realizing I was the target.   But as other cats have said, you just swat back, say ouch and move on, or maybe even laugh it off.   Very few catters try to be mean (even though a few do seem to get off on curmudging just for its own sake).

Oh, and even without the censorship, I find Mudcat far more friendly and civilized than a lot of other sites I've visited.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:51 PM

Something is perplexing us. Is it common for some oldtime Catters to wander into threads, leave a barbed (mean spirited) and sometimes personally directed comment then wander off again?

Just something us newbies have noticed, spats aside, that we sometimes get clobbered by a veteran Cat, for no apparent reason.

I missed this thread earlier... Well, yes, every newcomer here has probably experienced what you are alluding to, I know I did when I first arrived here. And a lot of us oldtimers sometimes get combative and snippy over this or that too. It's the club thing. You will find that the same thing happens in 3-D life too, if you're a newcomer to a club or a long-established social scene of some kind.

The veterans will share some strange humor that you don't understand at all. You may think they are quarreling when they are just goofing around, pretending to pick on each other...just doing it for laughs...and that may be clear to them, but not to a newcomer.

Then there are certain old feuds or sore points (specially in politics) that come up again and again between certain individuals, and this can trigger some nasty exchanges. Anything, for instance, that has to do with discussing Israel and the Arab world...or the Democrats and the Republicans...or the Irish troubles...or USA foreign policy...or religion and atheism...OUCH!!! All that stuff is just like a minefield. One is often best off to just avoid discussing it at all, but some of us can't resist. Any newbie who gets involved in one of those threads may get a shock at the stuff that starts flying back and forth across no-man's-land.

My best advice is, try to maintain a sense of humor as well as a sense of detachment, and as time goes by you will get more comfortable with the whole scene, hopefully, and you'll also begin to understand the "in jokes" and more bizarre stuff that goes on here. Then you won't be a newbie any longer.

Tip: Amos and Rapaire and I insult each other frequently on certain threads. We do it strictly for laughs, because we're friends. It's just a big long running joke, that's all. Same goes for the ludicrous stuff that Catspaw49 posts with all the bad language. He's a lovely guy, and we all know it, and he pretends to be a rude idiot because it's funny...since he really isn't like that at all in real life.

And there are other things like that going on too. It takes awhile to figure them out, that's all.

There's also some genuinely mean-spirited stuff that goes around now and then here, and that can hurt. But remember this: it's only the Internet, so don't sweat it. Take a look at the vicious and stupid stuff that gets posted under so many Youtube videos by people who can't even spell half-decently or express themselves in a semi-human manner, and you will begin to appreciate that Mudcat Cafe isn't so bad after all...for the Internet. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:45 PM

>The sad fact of the matter is that those most in need of chastisement are often least likely to recognize themselves, and subtlety, especially, will get you nowhere...<

Damned straight. (And they often cohere to each other.)

Nothing to be done on an ongoing basis. If you waste your mental energy focusing on that you miss the Enlightenment. It's a lot like panning for gold, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM

I am definitely grumpy. It takes time to get grumpy. It's almost a rank.

I might like to be MacAvity, but I doubt my capability.

I may not have read VT's every post, but I don't think I have ever seen anyone really get umpty with her (you).

This place is very polite compared to say Turbobricks (well, now that the original Gargoyle and Martin Gobson and Cli*ton Hammond are gone, and saving the C*ntess who can be very spiky).

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: maire-aine
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:26 PM

I came here for the music, and that was all I was expecting. Along the way, I met (some in person, some only online) some wonderful folks. In general, I keep to myself, because I read some of the controversial threads, but don't post there. Most of the time, I figure life is too short to bother. Except for a few "rah-rahs" for our Red Wings, I keep my opinions to myself. But you guys that want to discuss/argue/whatever, you go for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: paula t
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:12 PM

I think you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Occasionally someone will take the opportunity to make a personal attack because they don't agree with your opinion and can't think of an intelligent response.This happened to me a few months ago. I chose to be the grown up and leave the thread. This is always an option- because life's too short to get stressed out about a forum which is supposed to be interesting and entertaining .A short while later, someone left me a very reassuring and kind message on my page - which restored my faith in Mudcat and put things into perspective for me.Now I often read threads but don't post when I can see where they are going.There are individuals who seem to thrive on a"Darned good argument" and obviously enjoy it. Good luck to them,if that's what they enjoy.Mudcat is doing them a valuable service.

Enjoy the cut and thrust of the site!

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

VTam... "Probably none of habitual grumps will peek into this thread or if they do will not clue into own behaviour and how it is perceived."

I'll take that as a compliment.

As for this thread falling off the board, I think it should be linked to in the threads meant for newbies to read. It's well worth reading... for newbies and for us old grumps.

Have fun and feed not the trolls (see the newbie threads).

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

If you feel you've been targeted for a personal attack, PM Joe Offer and he'll be happy to look at it and rap the nose of the kitty that dood it.

There are other Joe Clones that may step in from time to time, if they also feel the attacks are personal and provocative but Joe is the head Honcho.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:28 PM

ok ok ok... I am gonna calm down and beg for calm from others.

The thing is that people sometimes don't recognise when they are being difficult, myself included.

Sometimes people don't care and we should just not give their flaming the oxygen of attention.

Probably none of habitual grumps will peek into this thread or if they do will not clue into own behaviour and how it is perceived.

But those of us who do, let's contribute positively now. No more blaming, or whining or whinging - or I will refer you to WYSIWIG and her $5 fee (proceeds to benefit MudCat after 62% tax and administration)

Think I would like to make this a get to know each other thread, now.

Especially since my memory book thread died the death.

If it cannot be, then please please just let this thread fall off the board.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:20 PM

Maybe I just wanted to kindly point out to veterans (without rubbing nose in the shit) that some behaviour is pretty awful and childish.


I'm sorry to hear that. I thought you were asking guidance for yourself, and replied from that perception.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:16 PM

The sad fact of the matter is that those most in need of chastisement are often least likely to recognize themselves, and subtlety, especially, will get you nowhere...

Sounds like you've got the survival basics sussed out, though. Welcome to the zoo!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:57 PM

"Maybe I just wanted to kindly point out to veterans (without rubbing nose in the shit) that some behaviour is pretty awful and childish."

Well there's a superior strain of Mudcat of course, wot knows it awl, and is beyond reproach. This is by far the cleverest mythical Mudcat wat ever was. They slag everyone else orf, and know lots, but never give any of their mythical magical knowings away. Proper superior folk they is. And they prove they are superior, by slagging everyone else orf. Pity their superior know-stuff gets lost like unicorn Mudcat dung in a common awld Mudcat dunghill. Cos if it didn't we mite awl be brilliant Mudcritters equal even to they...

Jeez reminds me o' Genesis!

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: peregrina
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:55 PM

It seems odd to me that quite a few posts elaborate the metaphor to blame the kittens...and yet...
there haven't really been many obstreperous guests recently, so a tinge of the the old, old thing of blaming outsiders or the target?

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:23 PM

creeps sake.. The original question culminated out of not only a coule of bad experiences but perceptions by others that MC is rife with grumpy old man syndrome.

I do use the search tool, I do use the FAQ, I (now) do track some posters to get an idea of their personality before commenting on things they've said, so I can make an informed decision about whether or not I want to deal with resultant grief.

Maybe I just wanted to kindly point out to veterans (without rubbing nose in the shit) that some behaviour is pretty awful and childish.

Moonlight... turn your face to the moonlight. If you find there the meaning of what happiness is, then your new life will begin.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM

My dog is not a cat, obviously, but her quirks may be applicable here. She likes other dogs and welcomes their presence but when it comes to a young, rambunctious one she is a fixer: She takes it upon herself to teach the young'un what, in her view, is acceptable; she snaps and barks and spins around. She never harms the pup physically but she may well scar it for life psychologically *g*. The pups' reactions vary- some cringe away, some bounce around begging her to lighten up and play, some growl.

Insert 'new' for 'young' and you got it. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

There are some less flippant responses to VTams opening question, which I didn't comment on earlier. But deserve further thought - when I'm in a 'further thought' rather than a 'retrogressive thought' state of mind.... Further days may follow, in which further thoughts may follow. All supposing there is a thought thing what still thinks such things. And of course I have already scripted "The Thing What Thought Stuff" (an automatically kitten mutilating film!)

The Cat is nevertheless full of flaming arseholes of course. Though I suspect some of Spaws fart-lighting schizoid sub-personalities may be to blame for that one... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

Is it common for some oldtime Catters to wander into threads, leave a barbed (mean spirited) and sometimes personally directed comment then wander off again?

Sometimes it's just hard to tell the diff in tone between a jest and a barb. On the other hand, there is also an annual winter madness (see old threads on Silly Season). IMO and YMMV.

Best advice I can offer is to PM a MudBud whenever you are not sure how to take something. Pick a few you trust and who you think you "read" accurately, and get a coupla viewpoints via PM as needed, then go with your own best thinking.

And be trustworthy yourself. Decline fights, shit-stirring, mudslinging, and gossip. Hard to do! :~) When tempted, try to do those in PMs too, not out ion the threads. But in winter madness it can be hard to realize that's what we're doing.

Finally, the FAQ is always useful to read and a $5 whine fee is always welcome (see Auction).

~Susan