Performers fees (% or flat fee?)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 11:21 AM

Well said Captain.

Some people can only resort to insults when their views aren't shared by all. (Didn't realise it was a mudcat union meeting Countess - sorry, I shall withdraw)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 11:15 AM

if an organiser charges 10 pounds on the door and has fifteen people turn up I get 150 pounds,and my fee is covered,if he/ she charges 2 .50pounds and 60 people turn up,I get 150 pounds and my fee is covered,now i would rather play to 60 people than 15,plus statistically I am likely to sell four times as many cds,the organiser is likely to raise another 60 pounds on the raffle,the publican is likely to sell four times more drinks,everyone is happier.
as long I am working for a flat fee,I dont care how the organiser raises the money,it might be by having a guest one week out of four,It might be by charging 2 50 on the door and getting on average another pound on the raffle.
a good CLUB in my opinion,should be full regardless of the guest,the punters should have sufficient faith in the organiser, that they will turn up every week because it is their club.clubs are clubs not mini concerts.in different parts of england the average wage willvary so will the average cost of a pint of beer.
I would not expect the same entrance fee to be paid in a disadvantaged area as in the home counties,and ithink it perfectly reasonable that students, unemployed ,nurses and old age pensioners should get reductions.
It should be left to the organiser to decide what his local audience can afford,A stockbroker in Surreycan well afford 10 pounds,an out of work ex miner in wales or south yorkshire probably cant,
I have played thousands of folk clubs,and have only had an argument over the fee twice,99 per cent of folk club organisers are trustworthy,and are doing it because they love the music,and ithank them for their dedication,particuarly Ted and Ivy poole who have been running Swindon folk club for 46 years.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 10:56 AM

Context is all.

The audience is not my concern IN THIS THREAD since I am neither the organiser nor the booked guest

The point of this thread is to discuss payment policy, in which regard I stand firmly on the side of the performer, despite having worn many industry hats on both sides of the fence and on it.

What is POINTLESS, however, is to attempt a debate with a butterfly mind unable to concentrate on, or even grasp the implication of selfishly refusing to pay the due door price.

Attempts at blustering and bullying about entirely extraneous, non-contextual side issues would be ruled out of order in a union meeting. Little wonder you don't get on with shop stewards.

By far the worst type of patronising git is the one whose mind is so tightly clamped shut that he can't even see it is so.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 10:26 AM

Countess Richard- Whew talk about ego!

Shop steward ? (can't stand 'em)
Think he/she didn't know these 'oop north types'? (wouldn't have mentioned names if I thought you didn't know them)
Played with ONCE in a session?
Sexist? How?

More assumptions than should be accommodated in one rant. None near the mark.

He/she may think he 'swatted 'em down' , wonder what they think.

You show your true colours when you say 'the audience is not your concern'. In this thread, the audience are involved as the organiser should know his club attendees and what they will pay / afford. If the club can't afford the 'big name', don't book them. Something to think on – maybe artistes (pro or not) should think about showing respect for the audience. Most do, but the person who thinks people should attend just because it is them appearing need to rethink. The very term 'punters' is quite often used in an insulting way when discussed between pro's. ie 'the punters won't notice'.

Most of my friends are professional musicians who perform internationally and do very nicely financially.
You do not know me so do not accuse me of being tight-fisted and only going to a pub to slag others off. The only posts I ever see from you are when you are slagging some-one off – mebbe you are too tight to go to a pub (or have no friends to sit with).

Your ego shows when you claim my interest is a 'minor hobby' but yours is a passion!

Patronising – you invented it!!!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 10:00 AM

I may be a bit naive here, but it strikes me that so many aspects of the folk scene seem to spread by word of mouth that a venue that screws its performers or a performer who backs out of deals/ screws venues etc, would not as a general rule survive. People would soon hear about them and stop playing or booking.

In terms of not having the money for big names because you're a small club. Surely the advantage of a small club is you know most people in it. If the performer is worth their high fee, then you can negotiate a one-off higher door fee or whatever with the other club members. (If they don't justify their high fee, why are you booking them?)

Personally, for a genuinely good performer in an intimate venue, (and that doesn't mean so intimate I can't breathe and get beer spilled on me btw,)I'd be prepared to pay a lot more than £6 on the door or whatever it was. Maybe that's just proof I'm a spoiled, bourgeois [insert word], but I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 09:50 AM

The dark-hued bird of prey, master of non sequiturs and horny-handed, son-of-toil, heavy engineering shop steward (how many of THOSE did I have to swat down and have for breakfast when reporting from union conferences and the TUC?) assumes (wrongly as it happens) that I don't know who these 'oop north' types are that he played with once in a session and thus, furthermore, don't understand his offensively patronising, sexist 'world'.

News for him: it's a bygone world, as out-of-date as the cliquey 'f*lk club' in the filthy pub back room attended by a handful of bearded, sandalled old blokes/esses in tie-dyed frocks with tankards who disapprove of being anywhere near in tune or of parting with money to pay professionals. I didn't 'forget about' this type of audience but wish I could.

The 'audience' is not, however, my concern but it ought to be that of the organiser. If you take on event organisation, whether professionally or not, it is your responsibility to get the bums on seats and to treat artists with respect and pay them the rate for the job.. This means providing an up-to-scratch venue and charging a price which reflects the quality of what's on offer; not simply a matter of covering costs but of not undervaluing the artists. And not to give Kim Howells (and thence Steve Knightley) the excuse to perpetuate the image of 'three folk singers in a pub in Wells'.

My passion is English (mostly) trad music and dance and my concern is the viability of those who perform it. Your minor hobby is going down to the blokes' pub (with blokes}, bashing out a chord or two (any will do) and spending as little as possible while slagging off anyone or anything of which you don't approve or understand. Because of course, in your eyes, being a musician isn't a 'proper job', is it?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Alec
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 09:46 AM

In support of oggie's point, could I just point out that these days Fish & Chips for two leaves relatively little change out of a Tenner.
Most performances are at least as tasty and all of them last a damn sight longer.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,chris
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 09:45 AM

Do people really 'value' a top flight performer at only £2.50?? unbelievable!!!!
our door charge is variable to reflect the performers fee but never as insultingly low as £2.50!!
I book performers in a number of ways. Some at an agreed flat fee, some against the door take and some with a guaranteed fee against a door %. I doubt that all audience members realise this.
It is not unusual/unreasonable, in some instances, for the performers to be prepared to take some of the risks, especially if they are not well known in our area.
I expect to pay the whole of the door take /% in these cases, when agreed. I cover any losses on a long term basis on raffle take and nights when the club makes a profit.(it happens!)
Our folk club has its own bank account solely devoted to the clubs finances. When we started the club there was never any expectation of making a personal profit (I am a realist, unlike some of the other people posting here)
All performers, however paid, are promoted in exactly the same way. We have a web site with links to performers own web sites wherever possible. Dear performers, please check that the dates/info given on your web sites are correct!!
4 times a year we produce and send out a newsletter both by snail mail and email to people on our mailing list. This costs a fair bit in postage.
It is not unknown for us to actually pay more than the agreed contractual fee if the performer has drawn a greater than expected audience/revenue. I believe such a situation deserves rewarding and we all should benefit.
Thank you to all the performers and audiences who have visited our club and to all the people who help us to run things smoothly, and here's to many more good nights at our club in the pub, thanks to our wonderful landlord.
...now, if only the local theatres/art centres would keep off our patch!! there are lots of other nights when they could put on folk performers. It doesn't have to be the night when we run our folk club! and I'm sure this doesn't just affect us.... but thats another subject and I don't want to get into subsidies etc. maybe this deserves it's own thread........?

chris

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: English Jon
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 09:30 AM

True enough!

A folk club audience is likely to be made of regular attendees - Having said that, I've spent loads on seeing Norma Waterson and then not been out for weeks afterwards. In my youthful days of going to see "bands" it was the same - I'd save up for ages to go and see whatever dreary goth combo I was into at the time and then not go out again for ages. However, among my peer group there was always someone who had just got hot tickets to go and see something. My point being, lets say a venue can seat 100 people - In commercial terms, it doesn't actually matter whether that's the same 100 people who came last week or not.

Now, it's true that "folk music" doesn't have the same media support as acts such as Robbie Williams, but there IS media interest. We could get into serious thread creep about whether the current media situation is sufficiently effective/particuarly desirable, but we do have Radio coverage on BBC2, BBC3, internet radio, TV coverage on BBC4, press companies like smooth operations etc. Even I've been on Radio 3 a bit (does that make me validated?! lol)

There is also starting to be a deal of crossover into mainstream music with your James Blunts on the one side and your Seth Lakemans (or is it Lakemen?) on the other.

People DO want to know, so what can WE do on a grass roots level?

Villan, I never meant to suggest that you "should" want to run Faldingworth for commercial gain, I was just suggesting that it would be nice to be able to _IF_ you wanted! ie, get to the point where audience attendance was so great that you could phone the club for tickets only to be told - sorry - sold out three months ago etc. It's a nice club and I'd love to see it stuffed to capacity. Didn't mean to offend.

I think it's all to do with attitude - When was the last time any of us said to someone - "you've got to come to such and such a gig - It's folk music, you'll love it - really excellent etc etc". Maybe we need a more Evangelical approach?

Am guilty of thread creep myself now. and ranting. sorry.
Cheers
Jon

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: oggie
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 09:24 AM

Way back percentages against a guarentee were common when booking rock acts. The big difference back in the seventies was that the promoter was allowed to claim certain expenses against the gross eg Advertising, venue hire, in once inatance hiring a Grand Piano etc. In effect it was percentage against net (agreed) income. The ticket prices were also agreed and if it worked we all benefitted. The agents weren't thick, they wanted successful gigs and to do business with us again. If folk agents aren't thinking the same way then it's their business at risk.

Before we get too far into the poverty of folk audiences and how we must keep prices down consider both the amount of booze that seems to be consumed and also how many instruments keep being bought. As comparators also consider the price of a round of golf, a CD, gym club membership or the price of a meal out. Even at £10 for an evening's entertainment I think folk music is still one of the great bargains.

Again as a comparison, The Who, outdoors in Hull, £39.50 (inc £4.50 booking fee, now there's a dodge). That's standing, seats are more.

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:46 AM

Yes, English Jon, £10 is small beer for a ticket in most situations and your example of tickets for the Kaiser Chiefs is, to some extent, valid.

I supect, however, that most people who go to see the Kaiser Chiefs, or most other pop bands, for that matter, only go to a few gigs a year. I know people who've paid astronomical amounts of money to see the likes of Elton John and Robbie Williams, and who then don't go to another gig for months.

You say "I don't see rock venues in decline...":

Rock/pop venues have the whole media/showbiz machine behind them and there's a large enough segment of the population who'll shell out large sums of money to see artists who've been "validated" by radio exposure, television appearances and press coverage. (As you rightly say "People buy what they they think is good, and they think what they're told to think".) Folk clubs/artists don't have this support.

A lot of folk club members pay to see guest performers on a more regular (e.g. weekly or fortnightly) basis. Some clubs have four guest nights a month. At £10 a time, members of the audience could be paying £500 a year (significantly more than the occasional pop/rock ticket buyer). Is that too much? I suspect it might be for some people.

Sorry I haven't actually answered any of your questions directly, Jon. Like most people, I'm better at asking questions than finding answers!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:26 AM

Jon
I don't want to make a living being an organiser. It was to put live music on in a rural area. Community based.

Fidjit
yes the line up on Friday April 20th

Main Guest No Fixed Abode 2 x 30 mins

Support Acts
John Conolly (the real JC) 25 mins
Andrew Tiffany 25 mins
Cara 25 mins

What a night it should be. :-)

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Sooz
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 08:17 AM

Like Andy's club, Gainsborough Folk Club is run for the enjoyment and benefit of it's members. When we book a guest we expect to pay a reasonable fee which we cover by a modest door charge, made up from our funds from regular raffles. Where necessary, artists get a bed for the night (not a sofa or floor).
I also book artists to play at the school where I work. I have no budget but I do not have to pay to hire the premises. Artists who play here take 90% of the door takings (so it is partly up to them to draw in an audience). This seems to work very well - everyone has been happy with their cheque at the end of the night. The 10% we keep is spent on promotion and incidental expenses. This has helped us to attract bigger names and a wider community audience who would be frightened to go to the folk club. Through this concert series we have brought live music to a town where there would have otherwise been very little.
When we book artists for our folk festival, we pay what they ask, although we sometimes wonder why this is so much more than they ask for a club or concert booking (even though we do not exploit them to perform lots of sets during the day.) Perhaps that is a subject for another thread?

Andy's club is warm hearted and welcoming by the way - we go there when we can although it is a bit far for a school night!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: English Jon
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:47 AM

Maybe the problem is more one of audience development? I.E lets say I'm an artist (just for the sake of argument) demanding £1K for a gig - silly money, go with me on this.

Club needs to make more than £1K - ie, to break even, sell 100 tickets at £10.

Now, I reckon there's a lot of good acts you can book for a lot less than £1000.

Lets say you book me direct (don't go through the agent) and I'm dead generous and agree to play for £500 - suddenly at £10 a ticket you've made £500 profit (and can either book me again next week or pay your mortgage whichever seems more sensible)

I also reckon there's a lot of places where £10 a ticket is small beer - look at the gigs that kids go to - How much is it to see the kaiser chiefs? £10? £12? £28? I don't see rock venues in decline...

People pay, because they want to go.

Now, we all know folk music is (or at least, can be) excellent - so how do we communicate with potential punters?

We want to see folk music thriving in clubs, so how do we get the clubs to be full every night? Wouldn't it be nice to have to turn people away at the door - Then you might even find new clubs opening... They tell me it happened before, so how do we recreate the sense of excitement for the music that people felt in the 60's?

If we can crack it, then artists would start to make a living, even club organisers could make a living!

People buy what they they think is good, and they think what they're told to think.

Do WE think folk music is a commercially viable product?

>steps down off soapbox<

Cheers,
Jon

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,Black Hawk
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:33 AM

Countess richard - earlier you wrote 'They are your guests, after all. Unless you are viewing them as the hired hands'

Depends on what you mean by 'hired hands' (usually a derogatory term) but if they are working for pay then they are not guests but employees. Yes, treat them well, courteously etc. as you would a guest but you cannot have it both ways.

Also in this equation must be included the audience (you did forget them did you not?) I will attend a club and sing (free) to support it. If the paid guest is someone who's style, songs etc. are not to my taste I will still attend the club to support it. If the door fee is double (?) then I will stay away on those nights. Most other audience members, singers and organisers of other clubs act the same way. I know this because when a particular club does as you suggest, I find later that none of us attended. Thus, the club loses audience figures but not revenue. Unfortunately, without an audience the club will fold. Maybe you will attend and entertain yourself.
Also, the fact that someone practiced for years, gave up their day job to play music does NOT give them the right to tell me I MUST like them and pay for the privilege. I have been in constant employment in heavy engineering for 42yrs and still have to earn my pay, not expect it because I have tenure.
I have sat in 'fun' sessions & singarounds with various 'names' (Vin Garbutt, John Connelly, John Wilson, Pete Betts etc) because they enjoy the music. Most artistes I have met / booked / sang with in sessions etc are reasonable, nice people who understand how our 'world' operates. Do you?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:32 AM

I've just re read the whole thread. Sorry I jumped in, you're all being very rude. It makes for an interesting thread though.
It's too much for a simple boy like me, you're all having such a good late night 12 pints of beer festival row that I'm off.
Peter

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Fidjit
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 07:21 AM

WOW! Villan on the 20th of April see we get John Conolly as support artist just, and all for £3 !! Is anyone making any money? Just how much do you pay your plumber? Or Tesco's?

Perhaps not the same John Conolly??

No ones getting rich in this game. Just making ends meet.
Enough for expences, roof over the head, etc. And hopefully enjoying themselves. Spoke to Bob Fox about the same when he came over for our festival. Just making a living. He said.

Fixing fees is always debaitable. Have to come to an ageement. Then stick to it. Depends on the venue. Can they afford it?. Do you want to sing to drunks. Are they going to understand what your doing/sence of humour? Go elswhere or sell yourself short. Usually I go elswhere. Some places are just not for me. As Dick Miles said, better just a couple now and again. Retain your integrity.

As an artist, keeping an audience interested for, say, two 45 minute sets and more, takes a lot of B S & T. My hat is off to those that manage it. Usually though, they are lucky to be preaching to the already comfirmed. (Folkies attract folkies) In the wrong enviroment some would "Die on their arse."

I left England for Scandinavia in '68 with my bag of songs. When I came back for a visit mid 70's I talked money at one Student club in London. Place was packed 200'ish. When I said I could get £10 in Scandinavia I was told to go back there as they could only afford £5.
Seems it hasn't changed all that much. Only the noughts on the end with inflation. The time warp lives on.

There are loads of us busy bees buzzing around the hive. How many get to see the Queen? Have to make do with the Countess.

As for newcomers. (Floor singers)
Would be nice to see the old music hall style of club where you could throw rotten vegetables at the act you didn't like.

Chas

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:51 AM


Countess Richard- I don't believe you're a real folk performer. I've never met any performer as rude as you

Never said I was. It's many a long year since I got up there for money and so I am free to make whatever comment I like on the parlous state of the industry. I have not, however, actually mey any organiser quite as rude, patronising and unaware as some of the stuff that's come out here. Not to my face, anyway.


Jon:

Oh bugger, and I thought it was you who was Guest No 2 and we were set to live happily ever after. How disappointing . . . (hehe).

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:47 AM

Percentage in the post, Jon!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: English Jon
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:45 AM

Cheers George!

Now here's a man EVERY club should book!

J

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:41 AM

Hear, hear Jon!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:38 AM

Well done Andy for running a well-organised and tight ship. I agree with everything you say, except for the antagonistic tone of the sentence "I think it's a ploy by some performers to increase their payout if the club gets a large audience who're paying top dollar to see them."

A performer must maximise income, according to opportunities presented, though always without hurting either the club booking him/her or the people coming to see him/her. He/she owes that to his/her family, for a start, so don't berate any performer for doing so. Some of them have raised children and put them through university, put food on the table and clothes on their backs, all on the income from their performances. Don't begrudge them the chance to do so; they enjoy what they do, but it is also a profession - for some, the only one.

At the same time, most performers I know are supportive of the folk club circuit and would adapt to the options offered by each club, variable as they are from one club to the next. Speaking for myself, I have appeared (and will appear again) at clubs for fees that will not even cover the petrol, let alone the 8 hours from my life spent on the motorway or the time and effort of the gig itself, purely and simply out of loyalty, because once they gave me my first gigs; or even for nothing, in the cases of new startups, or clubs that are in the doldrums, just to help them survive. Or even because I like the organiser and I know his/her heart is in the right place. I can afford to do that because I have a dayjob and my wife is a folkie herself who thinks along similar lines. And all along, I must be careful not to spoil the marketplace for those who depend 100% on performing income for their livelihood.

But as I said, every club operates on different fee systems, and the performer will in all likelihood not know the specific methods used by your club. So, when you ask them to quote a fee and they mention "guarantee versus percentage", please, please don't think thay are trying to rip you off. They are simply responding using the system that is familiar to a very large percentage (majority?) of clubs. It is a starting point, and most will arrive at a mutually acceptable fee approach and level.

I know you said "some" performers in your statement, and would probably readily exclude me from the list of the "baddies". But that is not the point. On behalf of the vast majority of decent people who tour the clubs and festivals as performers in order to entertain, keep traditions alive, etc, I have to protest and point out that there is no need for antagonism between organiser and performer, neither are performers and their "greed" (my words) to blame for the decline in folk clubs and club audiences, as some claimed further up the thread.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,Peter Hood
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:37 AM

Hmm, couldn't resist getting involved.
Countess Richard- I don't believe you're a real folk performer. I've never met any performer as rude as you.
As for the rest, well, it's lot about nothing.
Pay the performer what they ask, it's easy.
If you think they ask for too much and you can't afford them. Don't book them.
Don't be rude, just say, " I'll get back to you on that."
I'd like to pay everyone double what they ask, but I can't.
Percentage or flat fee? So what? Take it or leave it, it doesn't matter.
Just enjoy the music and all the wonderful people you get to meet.
I never made any money out of folk music, but I've nothing against people who do.
Peter Hood Red Bull Stockport

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: English Jon
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:29 AM

Hello all -

I'm quite amazed at what I'm reading here! We seem to have got to a state of "us and them" and there's certainly a deal of polarised opinion.

If I may offer a suggestion?

1. It's bloody difficult to make a living in this country, whether you're a folk singer or a club organiser with a day job, or a folk club audience member.

2. Fees at clubs need to be affordable enough to ensure good attendance but we need to charge enough so that organisers are not out of pocket after putting in all their hard work and promoting the event etc.

3. There needs to be enough left over to keep booked performers in beer and sausages.

When I quit the day job a few years back, I never expected to be a rich man - I can't speak for other performers, but I honestly believe that most of the people working the circuit do it for the love of the music.

In that time, I've met some lovely people (including Countess Richard and The Villan, behave the pair of you! You'd get on really well if you ever met!) and I can count on the fingers of one hand the people who I've felt were "out to profit from this malarky" or whatever.

I think clubs are tremendously important and we should all be working together to ensure that the club scene continues to thrive. Anything anyone can do to help promote, advertise, encourage new people through the doors etc is a real service to folk music.

I guess what I'm saying is we're all in this together. Personally, I think the biggest killer we'll face in the next few years is the spiralling cost of fuel.

Cheers,
Jon Loomes

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:28 AM

I have played at andys club, if its the one Iam thinking of[Many times in the past]and have always been treated well,.
I have played at thousands of clubs over the years,and with three exceptions have been treated well.
one was a club in kent ,that I agreed to do for 35 pounds,much less than my normal fee at the time,the organiser said to me the club is not doing well, that is what we are paying everyone.Imagine my anger when a confirmation was returned,the booking confirmation was for Jez Lowe,and was for 50 pounds,the organiser had returned the wrong confirmation.
this sort of thing destroys trust between performers and organisers.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:21 AM

>>But don't dismiss out of hand the benefit of other scenarios such as percentages where it works better for other clubs<<

I can understand that, and nothing wrong with percentage deal if a club thinks it works better for them. It doesn't for my club. The purpose of putting on somebody is to bring them to an area where normally there would not be any live music, becuase of it being so rural. Likewise it is run for a nice sized intimate audience, with a limit to how many can come in.

Andy's comments reflect pretty much my situation.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 06:08 AM

A sensible balanced summary Anahata.

I think (as my name was mentioned earlier) that I should like to add that when Countess R wrote "many" organisers, perhaps the word "some" would have been more accurate and not have caused the flak that may have deflected from the discussion. Not that I would dream of telling CR what she meant to write of course ;-)

I'm flattered at being excluded from the "silly" group of organisers but for clarity, before artists start approaching me with negotiations, my club is not solely run by me we are a team and I don't do the bookings. I concentrate on running the evening and making sure that it's an enjoyable time. Someone else does the financial bits, I never fancied negotiating with friends!

Just before posting I see that Andy has commented again and said:

Greg and Kevin suggest that if a percentage is involved, it usually means that the guarantee has been lowered and that in this scenario the artist is at risk. I don't want any artist to be at risk coming to my club, I want them to quote a realistic fee which they can comfortably operate on and drop all this percentage malarkey! I think it's a ploy by some performers to increase their payout if the club gets a large audience who're paying top dollar to see them.

I'd say there is no such thing as a realistic fee for all scenarios. As you state yourself your club covers the guest nights with the singaround nights so percentages don't work sensibly for your situation - fair enough but in that scenario the flat fee may be different to the guarantee. But don't dismiss out of hand the benefit of other scenarios such as percentages where it works better for other clubs. If every artist just had "one" realistic fee then I guess we'd only have "one" type of venue. The diversity of venue types (and therefore "fees") makes the scene a lot mor vibrant IMHO of course.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: GUEST,Andy
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:56 AM

Seeing that it was me who (innocently) started this thread, I suppose I need to respond to some of the interesting, (and vitriolic) comments. Firstly, may I enlighten people about my club. It's run every week, in very decent premises,small, but warm, clean and well furnished.
I book nationally known names and in the past 2 years have had the likes of John Kirkpatrick, The High Level Ranters, Toms Napper & Bliss, Pete Coe, Bill Whaley & Dave Fletcher, Louis Killen, Brian Peters........the list goes on. All of these artists has come for a fixed fee, as everyone does at this club! Any guest who desires, can be accommodated at my home, not on the floor but in a well furnished, heated double room and will be sent away the next morning with a good breakfast inside them, all borne by my own pocket! I do not treat guests badly, either in attitude or material provision!
The club has a regular attendance of up to 30 people every week for singer's nights. Most will attend every week, only missing when they're away on holiday. On these nights we have an ahtray collection of £1 each, plus a fortnightly raffle of a good quality CD. My policy on guest nights (6 weekly) is to charge the least possible to these stalwarts and to date, members have not paid more than £2.50 to see any guest. I regard that as a bonus for them for their unfailing support and the fact that they each put around £45+ per year into the ashtray anyway.
With regard to Countess' comments about 'failing to run on an economic basis and charge a realistic entrance fee' may I state that this club has a 'surplus' of eleven hundred pounds and I could pay most of the coming years guests right now!! (don't all rush at once)
Like Villan, when a guest appears at my club, they know they will get the fee they asked for, irrespective of audience numbers. And yes, I lose money on guest nights but thats made up by the whip-rounds on singers nights. I never profit on guest nights, no problem.
Greg and Kevin suggest that if a percentage is involved, it usually means that the guarantee has been lowered and that in this scenario the artist is at risk. I don't want any artist to be at risk coming to my club, I want them to quote a realistic fee which they can comfortably operate on and drop all this percentage malarkey! I think it's a ploy by some performers to increase their payout if the club gets a large audience who're paying top dollar to see them.
To quote Villan again, 'there are lots of good performers out there who are willing to agree flat fees and support grass roots'. I agree entirely and am willing to pay these people what they ask without engaging in this percentage business.

Nuff rambling,

Regards

Andy

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: treewind
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 05:44 AM

If I read it correctly, the original poster (and I think I know who he is) runs a small club that has mostly singarounds which raise some of the money to pay a guest one week in six. There are many clubs that operate this way, and dealing on a percentage for the night is obviously impractical because the total door income from the guest night isn't enough to pay the performer's usual fee. It has to be subsidised by the singer's nights that precede it, and everybody cheerfully accepts that.

I'm quite happy with that arrangement - we've had some splendid evenings at clubs that operate this way, and it often involves excellent hospitality from the hosts too. But if I think a club is big enough to raise a lot more than our usual "opening negotiations" fee I'll ask for a percentage. That way we all share the bonus if the evening goes well audience wise.

By the way, there are well run and less well run clubs, and it's sometimes hard to know exactly why some are getting it right and others aren't, but instances of raking in money by deliberately ripping off anybody in this businesss are extremely rare and success in such ventures is likely to be short-lived.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 03:37 AM

>>The thread started out with someone seeking tips on how to screw artists<<

I dont think so countess. Just finding out what other clubs do.

>>Villan's dump<< How do you know that, you haven't been.

>>or if it is simply that you are nasty, blinkered, uncaring people<<

Well that certainly isn't me Countess. I treat all performers with the greatest respect when they come to Faldingworth Live and previously Market Rasen Folk Club. I will do anything I can to make all performers visits as pleasurable as possible and pay them what I can afford. My club is not in a main town, but very rural with just a few hundred inhabitants.

Finally - who are you Countess Richard ? Are you a performer who can't get the gigs becuase you are not good enough or a successful folk performer who is earning a lot of money. Why don't you tell us who you really are.

Incidentally, here is a link to my Gallery photo's of Faldingworth Live. Is it such a dump. I think not. Its a village hall out in the sticks with an ageing population. People come from other areas in Lincolnshire but very few from the village.http://www.faldingworthlive.co.uk/Gallery.htm

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Feb 07 - 02:06 AM

Most people aren't 'precious' about such things

Indeed. Anything's 'good enough for f*lk', innit?
The thread started out with someone seeking tips on how to screw artists.
Then continued with organisers swapping ideas on how to treat them like shit.
Haven't been to this Railway nor the Villan's dump, nor do I now want to.
Can't see why anyone would when they risk such 'precious' lack of consideration.
And I can't actually decide whether this is just an extension of the intrinsically English lack of respect for the tradarts, absent everywhere else I have been or if it is simply that you are nasty, blinkered, uncaring people, full stop.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 10:04 PM

"But you needed to have a supply of new blood in the clubs to keep them going between the extra special visits of the near famous."

We're not talking about English Cricket now are we?


:-P

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 09:50 PM

>>Many organisers(not all - Kevin Sheils certainly excepted) are extremely silly and indeed selfish and short-sighted on this issue<<

Countess Richard go f*** yourself. You insulting person, and I don't give a toss who you are.

V I am shocked!
Also think you are justified in that reaction if you took the comment personaly.
Now I happen to know Villan and love going to his well run friendly village hall /club.
I have played there and hope to again shortly.
He can advertise his events.
He can get good deals from great well know performers.
He is a true gent and has put a great deal of effort into providing a service both to the regular performers and to the audience.
But there is nothing further
he can do to make people want to come and listen.
The trouble is as stated further up the thread the diehard folkies.
The ones with a snotty attitiude.
The ones with the fixed opinions and tedious definitions.
Have managed to kill the interest of any young inovative new people into forming the new bedrock that the scene needs.
There are so few performers in their teens and twenties who see any fun or enjoyment in attending the museums of ancient music that you short sighted narrow minded officious prats have created.
I know most of you on here will have been doing what you do for fourty years or thirty years and probably about ready to jack it in after all that solid service to the cause.
It is a shame that you didnt tell these dead weight self satisfied boring and meaningless passengers where to get of while there was still time for the good ones among you to find the next generation of club goers.
It is all very well having the few on the telly or handpicked for stardom by the watersons or the Carthys or smooth ops etc.
But you needed to have a supply of new blood in the clubs to keep them going between the extra special visits of the near famous.
They are not there around these parts.Have you got them at your clubs?
IF you have try and keep em.
The trouble with selling any product is that someone must want to buy it.
reclaiming songs from the refuse bin of history is fine.
But dont forget they were dead and thrown away by the generations that knew them when they were traditional.
Now they are revitalised relics.
If you want them to live and be heard you need somewhere to play them and an audience to listen.
I know you may like the extra status you imagine you gain by knowing obscure and elite musical forms.
and maybe you only want to keep it for yourselves so it can be used for making you feel special.
But if it is truly folk it needs to be heard and the local folk clubs are the best way of acheiving that.
WHo will the customers be in thirty years?

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 07:38 PM

Leadfingers... despite what the Countess seems to want to believe, that's pretty much exactly what we still can offer at the Railway. The fee is somewhat larger, though...!

What's getting her ladyship's knickers in a twist is our lack of 'suitable facilities' - i.e. a dressing room. Big deal!

She'd be mortified if she'd seen the Witches of Elswick the other week - they got changed behind the upstairs bar! How disgraceful!!

Admittedly the bar isn't used on a club night, but it's hardly private. A bit like changing on the beach, really... when we use the sound system I run it from there (not that particular evening), and the club residents park their instruments, cases and stuff there, too.

Come to think of it, many festivals are singularly lacking in such 'adequate facilities'... a couple of years ago I was support for Fairport at Poynton Festival, and we were all crammed into a little back kitchen... very friendly...!

Most people aren't 'precious' about such things, y'know. A dressing room with a star on the door? In yer dreams...

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 07:27 PM

Bernard:
       Oh, I suppose if I was doing one or two gigs per year, I could get into promoting but that's not what I'm up to. Folk venues are limited, as are the funds available to both the organizers and entertainers. Folk is by comparison to other genres, not very lucrative.
Others have suggested that even professional folk singers have to find other jobs. For me, this means playing in the "Hospitality" industry.   i.e. Pubs & Restaurants where you have to accommodate the needs of the business as well as the patrons.
Over the years "Hospitality" has become the mainstay and true folk venues are a real treat when I can fit them in.
I have a great deal of respect for anyone who chooses to run a folk club or festival. They are not going to get rich doing it and I believe, get seriously gouged by many of the big names.
So I give them a break when I can but working for a percentage is pretty well out of the question, for the reason I stated earlier.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 07:25 PM

Bernard

my dear...

Patronising git.
May you plug the wrong thing into the wrong socket (oo er missus) in a heavy shower . . . and fry.
Bloody sound engineers. Pah!

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 07:10 PM

Back in the 'Good Old Days' (The late eighties) I was booking for Uxbridge Folk Club . We were fortunate in having members who could provide comfortable B & B for Booked Artists who neeeded overnight accomodation . We also had the advantage of a Pub with a reasonable room , good parking and a Bar Meals facility . For most of the five years I was Bookings Member , we were offering a Guaranteed Minimum
(Usually £40) against a percentage of the door take . We were confident of being able to cover the minimum from the Door , and took advantage of Touring Performers who were passing through the area .
The Club worked well , and Artists we had booked were telling their friends to try us if they were in the area and needed the gap filling ! This got us people like Tom McConville , who heard about us from Jez Lowe . Very seldom did an artist leave with only the £40 , and we had no difficulty in maintaining a good selection of varied music . The Artists were happy , because they knew that they were not going to have to book in to paid accomodation on their way to the next gig for at least that one night !

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 06:26 PM

Your words, Countess, are an insult to anyone who works hard for a living.

You said 'decent, properly run venues' in the context of your previous posts... 'lack of adequate facilities at the venue'.

As most pubs cannot offer the 'adequate facilities' you suggest, a reasonable extrapolation is that you want folk venues to move out of pubs into concert venues.

Very few pubs have a suitably sized room away from the noise of the jukebox and 'big screen sport' these days, so a school hall, church hall, village hall or theatre seems to be what you are advocating.

This may work for an occasional event, but on a week-to-week basis is very costly - financial suicide.

The suggestion that you could invite the guest to your home prior to a gig is often unreasonable, as the club organiser usually has a day job and rushes around like a mad thing to get home from work and out to the venue.

Stewart (Railway organiser) was on holiday for a few weeks, so I was running the club in his absence. I arrive home from work at about 6.30pm usually, and need to be at the Railway by 7.30 on a Guest Night. It's a half-hour drive from here... so I tended to go there straight from work. You did say 'realistic', didn't you? Just checking!

It's all very well up on that high horse, pontificating about ideals. We don't live in an ideal world!

In the ideal world, the folk club organiser would wave a magic wand and a 'suitable venue' would appear... sorry, does that sound ridiculous? It's not as far-fetched as your suggestion, my dear...

As a sound engineer by day (and sometimes by night, too), I often have to work in less than ideal conditions to complete a job. It goes with the territory. I'm skilled at what I do, but I can't say 'It's raining. I don't want to get wet putting up loudspeakers in a field'. The client expects the job to be done, and also expects that we take such things into consideration when planning the job.

Last week I was working in a prison doing the AV for a staff seminar. A comfy, cushy job for the most part... but I had to wait two hours before I could drive my car out of the 'sterile' area, as there had been an incident. It goes with the turf...

You seem to think these performers are gods... poor things, they mustn't be inconvenienced! They certainly are not, and should not expect to be treated as if they are!

'A fair day's pay for a fair day's work' is what we all hope for, but few of us ever feel we are given it.

Musicians and singers are no different. It's a job - okay, being paid for what you enjoy doing - and that, in itself, is a bonus.

If you wish to construe that as treating them like hired hands, then I'm sorry - they knew what they were getting into. How many postmen complain about having to be at work by 4.00am? Probably all of them...

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 06:26 PM

Jim Lad, percentages should give incentives if done properly - the idea is the flat fee is a minimum, and 80% of the door is a bonus on top of that for both artiste and organiser if more punters are attracted in.

Unfortunately, not all performers are diligent in exploiting their mailing lists - they should let people know they are about to appear in their area. Folk Club publicity is difficult, as local newspapers are notorious for printing the wrong information, if they print anything at all.

Local radio? Don't make me laugh! We had a perfectly good Folk programme on BBC GMR before they decided to change the station's name to 'Radio Manchester' and take everything Manchester off it!

Never mind, the programme is on Radio Britfolk now - but we can't do 'diary dates' because the programme is aimed at a wider audience, and recorded around two weeks in advance. We will be broadcasting on Oldham Community Radio from March - our old GMR Monday night slot - on 99.7 FM, and the diary dates will be back - albeit to a smaller catchment.

Posters in public libraries, shop windows and factory/office noticeboards are all very well, but not very effective.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 06:24 PM

I think that the idea of a % split is quite good in some circs eg:

A performer or band is well known ish, but not on the front page of every mag all the time. They are looking to raise their profile out of their normal area (geographically or venue type). The promoter is tempted but not convinced. The performers say - well - we would normally get £x but will give you a first visit for a guarantee of £y against a % split of a/b.

The promoter isn't taking too big a risk, but the performer, confident of their fan base, should do ok too - the bigger their fan base, the better they do. It also encourages the performers to be sure to do what they can themselves in terms of promoting etc. The hard work does not end with securing the gig. Whether they do it themselves or pay an agent to do it, getting the gig is just the start of it.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:21 PM

to suggest that maybe concert venues are the only answer is plain stupid. You're off your trolley!!

Thanks,
But I said no such thing.
Whatever hapened to the Campaign To Get People To Read The Thread?
I said 'decent, properly run venues', which includes any of whatever type that are just that. And which pay the going rate, preferably without whingeing.

Why is it 'greedy' to expect the (not exactly huge) fee for the job? This shows a remarkable contempt for professional musicians.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:19 PM

I rarely work for anything other than a flat rate. I've never been a fan of percentages because it leaves the organizer with no incentive to promote. Having said that, if the numbers are too low on the night and it's clearly not their fault, I offer them a break and have often been given bonuses when the opposite was true.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:17 PM

Having given this matter a little sideways thought, I wonder what would happen if food producers took the Countess's advice...

Instead of little corner shops with their friendly service, we'd have great big sanitised hypermarkets who would grind the prices down as much as they could, putting everyone else out of business.

Good job that isn't going to happen...

Dum-di-dum-di-dum...

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:07 PM

No, Dick, I haven't booked you. I don't book anyone, I'm a performer myself - you were booked by Pauline and John from the Open Door in Oldham.

Yes, Countess's humour creases me, too...

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 05:01 PM

Countess - greed is greed no matter how you try to disguise it.

You want to be realistic? Nobody forced these performers to 'go pro'. It was their choice, and they are at the mercy of market forces. They knew what they were getting into. They wanted to make money. Some are lucky enough to do so, but to suggest that maybe concert venues are the only answer is plain stupid. You're off your trolley!!

If you read my posts you will realise that I am not a club organiser, and have not been for over twenty years... being involved in their running is different. I maintain the websites and perform as a 'resident'.

As someone once said... 'I refuse to be drawn into a battle of wits with someone who is unarmed...'

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:59 PM

well countess richard,I like your sense of humour.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:54 PM

I believe Bernard you booked me, was this the railway at lymm.a href="http://www.dickmiles.com">http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:53 PM

I am consulting my agent on which of the two offers to pursue.

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:49 PM

the best arrangement in my opinion is a flat fee.
the more people there are in a club the more chance in theory, of selling cds.
however many years ago I played at lowestoft folk club therewere 25 people in the club ,but I sold 20 vinyl lps.
The next night I sold 3 lps,there were sixty people in the club.
I love folk clubs ,and love performing,but I got tired of travelling up and down motorways.
I come to England twice a year,and really enjoy the clubs that I do,and would like to thank all the organisers who make it possible for me to earn money playing the music I love.
I sympathise with the guest before me,Isuffered a broken marriage through the pressures of trying to work as a duo with my partner,and then later, when I was away from home a lot playing solo gigs,because I was never there, we drifted apart.
earning a living as a musician has always been hard,but I knew that when I started andlike Edith Piaf Iregret nothinga href="http://www.dickmiles.com">http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Performers fees (% or flat fee?)
From: Bernard
Date: 17 Feb 07 - 04:39 PM

Odd, that, Ron! Folk Clubs often used to be run that way this side of the puddle... I think Westhoughton still is. Very few have a membership system now, though.

The house concert idea is something that has intrigued me for a while... I know of a few performers who do that over here - but driven by the performer rather than the householder, if you follow?

Sometimes you can attract a bigger audience by booking someone you cannot afford... but the risk of burnt fingers is high! If it works you look good, if it doesn't, no-one volunteers to pick up the bits.

I was in that situation in the mid 1980s - I was out of work at the time, running a modestly successful folk club. One performer (who shall remain nameless, but people who know me know who it was!) went back on his word. He had agreed to work for a percentage of the door, but demanded his full fee - in my absence.

Needless to say, we had nothing in writing, and as a result my young family had to suffer because of his greed. The club had to close, as I couldn't risk any more debt. I learned the hard way that people aren't always as trustworthy as they seem.

Before anyone takes me to task, I was much younger and more trusting (naive?) in thse days. He was a fellow club organiser, and knew the score. He'd asked me for the gig, and I'd told him we couldn't afford it. So he made the offer.

What was worse, he even went back on his word of offering me a reciprocal booking at his club, which says little for his integrity.

We'd had guests such as The Yetties (mates of mine - a special rate!), 'Big' Pete Rodger, Brian Osborne, Harry Boardman, John Howarth, Ted Edwards (just after his Sahara expedition!), Fiona Simpson and others I can't just recall... but folk audiences are notoriously fickle...

The club had grown from being a singaround to booking guests, and the regulars had a say in the guests we booked.